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Why the PT fans love the PT so much, not as diehard as we think

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The PT fans at TF.n are really starting to creep me out and they are starting to get like trekkies. I really think I know the difference in appeal to the PT fans as to the OT fans. It is fascinating to read what makes them love the PT movies so much, but it is alittle scary if you get through all the bull shit of what they like, and instead focus on why they like.

The OT appealed to anyone cause the characters were normal, and they upbeat and fun movies. I am not a sci-fi fan, but the OT are my favorite set of movies, so it was able to get fans like me to love it. You could identify with Luke, Leia, and Han, and that was the appeal, and of course they are great movies to begin with.

I read what the appeals to the PT fans: Many say, they identify with Padme/Anakin because they have had relationships like that. I think, who the hell has forbidden love affairs on this planet cause of those circumstances? They can identify with Anakin because of his attachment issues as a kid, and the things he goes through and the choices he makes to go to the darkside. I say to myself, "who thinks of killing a bunch of kids to save your wife?" In short, they are really identify with Anakin & Padme, the same way we identify with Han, Luke, and Leia, and I say they have some major issues.

I am not saying that these fans aren't genuine in their love for the PT, but it is getting creepy, and I am really starting to believe that the PT diehards are a niche audience that won't stand the test of time. These people will outgrow these movies in 10 years when they get over their forbidden love affairs issues and their demons in them as teenagers than Anakin faces.

I believe there is a good amount of fans that like the PT, and cause of their love of the OT, they give it a pass because it is more SW. Then there are niche fans like us who have major issues, and there are niche fans like them who love it to death.

The reason the OT is still great today, is the movies still resonate because anyone can relate to the little guy beating the big guy, and the underdog story SW is really about. Most of these PT fans are big fans of ROTJ, and the last half hour of ESB, where Vader is prominent. In essence, they dont' like SW '77 cause it doesn't deal with Vader, and it is his story that interests them the most. I want to see 20 years from now when they are in their 30's and 40's if they still give two shits about Darth Vaders story played out in movies that aren't that great. I know I don't watch any movies from 20 years ago, that I don't deam a classic, I heavily doubt they will either.
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What's wrong with Trekkies?
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
What's wrong with Trekkies?


I guess what I mean is there are fans of Star Trek, and there are Trekkies. I would say the Trekkies are the closet cases who have some real issues. The Star Trek fans are the majority who just love the stuff because they love it. I think the PT fans have some real issues in their lives, and thats why the story of Anakin/Padmes love affair and the tragedy appeals to them so much.
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I'm going to do something I never thought I'd do, but I'm going to debate against CO on this one. Don't take it personally, man. You know I think you're awesome.

The amount of "creepiness" you take from a PT fan being able to relate to events in those movies is how specific you cause those events to be. I mean, you could do the same thing with the OT as well. I agree that everybody could relate to it because it contains those primal chords that resonate with all of us. Good vs. evil. The longing to do something important with your life. Moving forward after the loss of loved ones. But if you start getting specific, then it makes the OT fans seem a little bit "creepy" as well. I mean, how can anyone in the U.S. today possibly relate to their adoptive guardians being blown to cinders by a military regime looking for their robots? Are we really normal if we can relate to being sheltered by an old man in a cult-like religion who convinces us to sell off our worldly possessions and use the money to pay for us to go on a crusade to save the universe? And I doubt very many of us have had to choose between suicide and joining our homicidal, fascist father.

Making more general points, I can certainly understand how some people can relate to the plot points in the prequels. I've certainly never had to hide my lady love from the general eye because I'm a warrior whose code doesn't allow me to marry, and she's a political figure, but I have had the pain of an unrequitted love, and, I'm almost ashamed to admit this, but at 16 I was able to relate to Anakin when Padme was fighting off his advances. Maybe I'm just a whiny loser, but there it is.

So it all depends on how specifically you want to make these comparisons. I doubt any of the PT fans are looking to kill *teehee* Younglings to save their dying wives.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Some of the PT fandom is slightly disturbing, I agree. Giving Anakin a pass for everything he does. Or admireing the Emperor. I understand that when you are in love, you do stupid things but killing small children has to be something else. There has gotta be a line that when you cross it, it's no longer love. But some of the fans seem to find excuses for everything Anakin does and what's even more alarming, they are justifying his actions. Laying blame elsewhere. "It was the fault of the Jedi for not caring about Anakin or some such." Or admireing the Emperor. But part of that has to be because there really are no real heroes in the PT. Everyone is flawed in one way or another. Everyone appeares so incompetent and eveyone is doomed to failure. I'm trying hard to think of who the real heroes in the PT are and can only come up with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. But even they were painfully ignorant of what was really going on in the republic. Where as in the OT Leia, Luke and even Han, knew excactly what was going on and what they had to do. In the PT the heroes just get dragged into conflict and aren't able to figure out why they are fighting or even is the cause a just one. Hell even I'm not sure if they should have fought at all. You could look at the heroes in the PT fighting to prevent freedom. Part of the republic wants to brake away and the heroes are trying to prevent that. It's basically a civil war and the jedi are fighting to preserve something that is corrupted to the core. So I guess, when you look at it like that you can understand why some fans like the sith. The sith atleast know what is going on and look smarter and better because of it.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I'm going to do something I never thought I'd do, but I'm going to debate against CO on this one. Don't take it personally, man. You know I think you're awesome.
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Please don't be afraid to take issue with my statements, unlike other websites I welcome someone who has a legitimate beef with me. Now if this were TF.n, I would be banned right now. Please anyone who disagrees, I am game, that is what this is all about, not to agree 100% of the time.

I am just saying that I think there is a difference in fans between the OT & PT mainstream fans as well. Sure there are OT fans that dress up for the movies, just as there are PT fans who do the same. I think that is just weird if you over the age of 10, but there are fans like that from every movie series, so I discount the real diehards on each side.

My whole point was, growing up many of my friends were OT fans, and none of us were huge scifi fans, we were not the typical demographic for SW. We just gravitated to the movies because it was a feel good story, had really likeable characters you can relate to, and of course the movie quality, especially SW & ESB were unmatched at the time.

The PT fans are different, they will admit only ROTS is the only great movie to them. They admit that there are flaws in every movie, and that Jar Jar goes too far, and that yes there are plot holes but that wont ruin the movie experience. I ask anyone here, if SW or ESB were like that, do you think we would be here? Would we all love 2 mediocre movies, and one pretty good one? So what makes the PT fans gravitate to the characters that we can't? I mean its the same damn world with the same themes, why can't any of us latch on give two shits about Anakin & Padme? The only character I remotely care about is Ewan McGregor, cause he is atleast the one good guy from the trilogy.

The PT fans have to love Anakin & Padmes character to love these movies. I made a thread on TF.n awhile back on first reactions to each PT movie, and everyone of them LOVED ROTS, but most thought TPM was alright, and it was half and half about AOTC. So only ROTS seems to be the prevailing crown jewel of the saga. Again would you love a trilogy of just one great movie?

So they say they can't believe Anakin would kill younglings, they can't believe he choked Padme, but they still like him? I was rooting for Kenobi the whole Mustafar battle, and once he cut Anakins legs & arms off, I was saying Thank God! I didn't root for Anakin once in the PT, he was never likeable, and he was designed that way by Lucas, and for some reason that appeals to many PT fans.

Now Padme, how can you respect anyone who loses the will to live after having two kids? I laugh at that scene, thinking, "No mother would do this? Who is writing this shit?" But PT fans rationalize, that she did it for Anakin, she was so torn up inside that her love did that to her. Newsflash: Any parent knows that kids are more important than anything in the world, and she deserted TWO of them is not believable, unless your mentally ill.

We talk about quality of the PT films, and this nitpick and that nitpick. But the bottom line is I never gave a rats ass about the two leads in the movies: Anakin & Padme, that is why I didn't love the movies. But there are alot of these people that had to gravitate to these characters the same way we did to Luke, Leia, and Han Solo. Unfortunately they are like night and day, and I don't find anything redeeming of either of them.
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And on an additional note - if Padme died of heartache and her pain over lossing Anakin was so great that she couldn't even muster up the strength to stay alive for her children, why didn't Lucas show us any of that love? I mean, I've seen all 3 PT several times and not once do I find anything resembling a Romeo and Juilet love-passion. I see two stiff wooden actors throwing cheesy lines at each other. Gone with the Wind, it is not.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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The only thing that irritates me is that somehow Padme lost the will to live, but her last words were, "There is good in him." What the hell?! If she believes that, then how does that justify losing the will to live? That's hope! The whole point of her losing the will to live, as I understand it, is because she lost Anakin, who meant everything in the world to her. But if she believes there's still good in him, then what the hell's the point? That's always bothered me. It makes no sense.

Originally posted by: CO
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Please don't be afraid to take issue with my statements, unlike other websites I welcome someone who has a legitimate beef with me. Now if this were TF.n, I would be banned right now. Please anyone who disagrees, I am game, that is what this is all about, not to agree 100% of the time.


It's not that I was afraid. It's just that I generally see eye to eye with you on everything on these boards, so it's weird for me to have a "legitimate beef" with one of your viewpoints. But at least we can discuss like civilized human beings unlike some other boards.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The only thing that irritates me is that somehow Padme lost the will to live, but her last words were, "There is good in him." What the hell?! If she believes that, then how does that justify losing the will to live? That's hope! The whole point of her losing the will to live, as I understand it, is because she lost Anakin, who meant everything in the world to her. But if she believes there's still good in him, then what the hell's the point? That's always bothered me. It makes no sense.
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I remember reading Lucas's rationale about Padmes death. He said he couldn't make her die from anything physically happenning to her by Anakin, cause that would be too much. In his view, now he actually killed her, now he is a monster!

So he thought up the losing the will to live part, so technically Anakin didn't have anything to do with killing her except breaking her heart. It is lame, but that is old George's reasoning.

The whole way Anakin was portrayed in ROTS, makes me rethink if he even deserves to be a force ghost in ROTJ, and I actually would be for Lucas just having Yoda & Kenobi smiling at the end of the saga when watching it with the PT movies as Luke sees the ghosts.

How can Luke look at this man, and Kenobi & Yoda smile next to a man who killed loads of children jedis (I won't say Younglings cause I hate that word) and choked his wife! That is a man who does not deserve to be redeemed.

I always envisioned Vader killing Jedi as part of the Clone Wars, as any soldier who is fighting in Iraq today is doing. It is war, and they are just doing their job. Once he killed all the kid jedis, it still bothers me, and I think Lucas didnt' realize how unbelievable that is 10 minutes after he says, "What have I done?" If he killed the Conehead guy cause that was part of The Emperors plan, then I could understand he is just abiding by rules of war.

This is my whole beef with the PT characters, it is bad enough their not likeable to begin with, but now Lucas's writing really makes me root against them. Anakin killing kids & choking his wife, Padme losing the will to live, how am I suppose to feel any drama or tragedy when she is lying there in a casket & he is standing there next to The Emperor on the Star Destroyer?

But just check many PT fans comments and how they feel at the end of ROTS, "I was balling and crying my eyes out, it was so tragic, those two young lovers and how they met their fates." In a sense, I glad I dont' get an emotions til they show the two kids being brought to their foster parents. I just find it very disturbing that these young PT fans can relate to these young lovers and their situations, I am sorry I just can't.
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Sorry, double post

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The PT fans at TF.n are really starting to creep me out and they are starting to get like trekkies. I really think I know the difference in appeal to the PT fans as to the OT fans. It is fascinating to read what makes them love the PT movies so much, but it is alittle scary if you get through all the bull shit of what they like, and instead focus on why they like.

Hey, that's an insult to Trekkies.
There's good in the Original Trilogy, and it's worth fighting for.
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
http://www.myspace.com/harlock415
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Like I said, I could live with the losing the will to live thing if she didn't totally make it meaningless by her last words. Like many people have said, it's only when the characters talk that they make us hate the movies.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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You know, one of these days I should write up a breakdown of what I disliked and found weak in the PT and see just why the PT fans just don't see what I do. Or, I would but that would mean watching those movies again, so to heck with that. That's what bugs me. How can they like it so much when I find so many reasons to hate it. It's not creepy or nothing, it's perplexing and has skirted close to madness.
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Causing physical injury that results in the death of Padme = too much for Lucas

Killing tens of children ("younglings" is for fags) in cold blood = a-okay for Lucas

Me = http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-tizzy.gif
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Originally posted by: jack Spencer Jr
You know, one of these days I should write up a breakdown of what I disliked and found weak in the PT and see just why the PT fans just don't see what I do. Or, I would but that would mean watching those movies again, so to heck with that. That's what bugs me. How can they like it so much when I find so many reasons to hate it. It's not creepy or nothing, it's perplexing and has skirted close to madness.


Yes, but they do see the flaws, although not as many as we do, but they don't care. What I did on TF.n was try to PM some of the more reasonable gushers, and try to get them to be honest, and I was suprised that they talk a good game of defending the PT on the threads, but when you get them 'off the record' they are alot different.

There is one guy on TF.n Cryogenic, who I had many conversations with through PM's, and he admitted to me that TPM isn't that good of a movie at all, and even admitted that AOTC wasn't much better, but he did like ROTS alot, and also agreed to me that SW & ESB were two best SW films. So I asked him why so much love for the PT in all your posts, it sounds like you love them as much as I love the OT?

His response was he was tired of bashers ruining everything, so he had to dig in the trenches and fight for the PT, and if he started really burying the movies, the vulchers would jump in and say, "I told you so!" So he was always positive in his love for this trilogy, in which he thought two of the movies were average. He constantly said he just liked the themes that Lucas used, and he thought OT fans were expecting too much from the PT. He always said, "Come on, they're just SW films, I am not expecting to be overwhelmed." He also admitted that Superman: The Movie was his favorite movie of all-time, not any of the 6 SW movies. I would counter and say how many heres favorite movie of all-time is one of the OT movies?

And that is the crux of my argument, alot of these supposed PT Gushers are not going to be like us 20 years from now, and still love those movies. I contend you don't love movies that you never loved 20 years later, you are bound to see the averageness of it, and move on in life.

We atleast saw it within a couple years after the release, but at one time I was a naive lover of the PT films, but deep down after every viewing I just knew they werent great movies, and something was missing. After ROTS, that is when I changed my stance on the PT, and in fairness to Lucas I gave the whole trilogy all the wiggle room, I waited for the whole story before rendering my verdict, that the movies are just not that great and dont really mesh with the OT. They have great moments, but man they have really bad ones too that just bring the movies down that only George Lucas is able to get away with from the SW fans.

Putting aside my thesis, I still think alot of PT fans are enamored by the action, the visuals, and the lightsaber fights, and I know they won't be fans 20 years from now because there will be something bigger and better than the PT.

I always ask why we still love and fight for the O-OT? It is the characters, the story, and the fact that in my opinion there are two classics in the trilogy, and one good movie for closure. That is why its passed the test of time for me.
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Here is my theory on why I think PT fans can relate to Anakin and Padme'. Maybe they are all Emo kids. Noone understands Emo kids just like people didn't really get Anakin and Padme'. That explains why Anakin dressed differently than the other Jedi's as well. He was emo.

Where the hell did the word Emo come from anyway?
1000 Word Migraine
www.1kwordmigraine.com

An off topic site for an off topic world!
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Short for emotion or emotional.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Why did you have to make a long ass post that takes a minute of my time? just make a brilliant picture of some snot nosed kid saying PT lovers are losers.
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Originally posted by: iamstillhiro1112
Why did you have to make a long ass post that takes a minute of my time? just make a brilliant picture of some snot nosed kid saying PT lovers are losers.


I guess you haven't quite mastered the skill of refraining from reading when you're not enjoying the subject matter, huh? ^_~

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Tachikoma-Kun Some of the PT fandom is slightly disturbing, I agree. Giving Anakin a pass for everything he does. Or admireing the Emperor. I understand that when you are in love, you do stupid things but killing small children has to be something else. There has gotta be a line that when you cross it, it's no longer love. But some of the fans seem to find excuses for everything Anakin does and what's even more alarming, they are justifying his actions. Laying blame elsewhere. "It was the fault of the Jedi for not caring about Anakin or some such."


That touches on the root of the problem for me; Anakin is entitled to act like a shit because he’s the chosen one. Everyone owes him, nothing is his fault and he doesn’t need to take responsibility for any of what he does.

I don’t mean to sound like an old-timer, but I think a great deal of this is cultural. When I was a child I received a spanking when I did something wrong. Even if someone else had “tricked” me into doing it, even if my heart was in the right place, if I broke the rules I faced the music. There was always PERSONAL responsibility. Now everyone wants to be their kid’s buddy, they want to understand their child and there’s an excuse for every shitty thing their brat does. My wife is a Pre-K teacher and when she confronts parents about their children’s inappropriate behavior they defend their child with all the passion of Perry Mason. When I grew up you received a trophy when you did something that merited an award, but these days showing up is enough to merit an award.

This is now a world where one is rewarded for doing nothing, where no one takes responsibility and everyone has an excuse. No wonder they relate to Anakin; they are Anakin. Everyone owes them something for gracing the Earth with their presence. No one should give them a hard time about being an alcoholic because alcoholism is a disease and daddy never loved them. What changed in the last 20, 50, 100 or even 1000 years? Alcoholism has always been a disease and many people have been shafted with less than stellar parents. What changed is that we as a society now accept and in some instances encourage mediocrity. Why do your best when everyone from the star goalie to the bench-warmer gets a ribbon? Why should you step up and accept responsibility for killing children when you can blame it on chemicals and daddy’s mental abuse?

So now we’re back to Anakin. Sure he has a right to be mad at not being a Master because everyone else on the JC is a master. I got a ribbon just for showing up at a little league game so shouldn’t Anakin become a master for showing up at the JC? Sure Anakin did some bad things, but shouldn’t Obi-Wan act as a defense lawyer for him? My mom defended me and shielded me from discipline when I took crayon to the schoolhouse walls so shouldn’t Obi-Wan keep Mace from taking a tone with Anakin?

PT fans can’t help being PT fans just like many of us can’t help being OT fans. In both instances the films reflect the world of the fans on a fundamental level. In a nutshell:

OT Fan: Give me liberty or give me death.

PT Fan: Give me that it’s mine.


P.S. This is a “if the shoe fits wear it” post. There are many young people, such as my children, that still get spankings. There are also many young people that believe in standing up for what’s right even if that means personal loss. There are even young people that take personal responsibility. If you are one of those people this message (and the generalizations that go with it) doesn’t apply to you.


"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
- Darth-Adroit

“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit
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Some people at The Force.net definitely have these scary weird feelings about Anakin that I don't think even Lucas ever intended. He had the guy kill children! He's bad okay? They think he's cute or something. It's like those lonely women who write letters to prisoners.
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I've spent very little time around TFN, so I don't know how far some of these prequel lovers go, but I personally don't have much disdain for the films. Hell, I'd rather defend them than deride them. No matter how "bad" things get in the PT, they're certainly not as bad as the exaggerated awfulness that PT bashers insist on. Heck, the way I see it, all the bashing makes me much more tolerant of the PT. But that's my point of view.

I don't think any of the PT films are necessarily bad. The Phantom Menace is rather dull at times, but if one manages to stay awake, it is refreshing to see a movie that takes its time to move at a more leisurely pace. I was watching the movie about two years back and I was surprised by the opulence of it all. When I saw Attack of the Clones in theaters, I found it to be an entertaining movie. With other viewings, it's revealed many of its flaws. And while I like it better than The Phantom Menace, I find it strangely more imperfect. I happen to love Revenge of the Sith. I love that mood of dread that's in the air throughout the film. It's like you're falling deeper and deeper into hell and no matter what you do, you can't get out of it. Unfortunately, it does make a fair share of missteps. The opening part of the film on the ship feels like a mess and other minor hiccups occur along the way, but in the end, I think it's a great film and a terrific addition to the series.

I love Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back though I will confess that A New Hope feels a little duller than I remember it, but it's still a great film. Empire is my favorite and it always had. Return of the Jedi hasn't stood up well much in my opinion. As a kid, I was always turned off by Jabba and his pals, but it made for an enjoyable sequence. It's still entertaining, but it feels much lazier than ever before. In the end, the movie's biggest and perhaps its only strength is the Luke/Vader relationship.
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Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Some people at The Force.net definitely have these scary weird feelings about Anakin that I don't think even Lucas ever intended. He had the guy kill children! He's bad okay? They think he's cute or something. It's like those lonely women who write letters to prisoners.


Yeah, I must admit that's quite irritating. All those mindless girls who flocked to the prequels because, "OMG, Hayden is just so adorable!" really pissed me off. I know I've mentioned this before, but when TPM came out, there was this commercial advertising Star Wars mechandising where this kid went to school for the first time and equated it to Anakin leaving his mother. And a bunch of references were made to how he should be like Anakin. I couldn't believe it! This is Darth Vader! I was thinking. He's going to grow up and murder people! And you're encouraging your kids to emulate him?!

By the way, I think Darth-Adroit's post is spot on. Way to nail down our crappy modern society.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.