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Why don't people hate the Palpatine re-casting in ESB yet despise Force ghost Anakin's re-casting in RotJ?

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People hate the re-casting of Anakin’s Force ghost in the 2004-present re-releases of Return of the Jedi, mainly because it is disrespectful to the now-deceased Sebastian Shaw, yet like the re-casting of Palpatine in the 2004-present re-releases The Empire Strikes Back. I don’t understand: why do people like the re-casting of Palpatine in The Empire Strikes Back if it is also disrespectful to his two now-dead actors, yet despise the re-casting of Anakin’s ghost if it is disrespectful to Sebastian Shaw? Can someone explain to me why?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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I despise them both equally, so I can’t relate to your argument.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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Good question. I don’t know why I’m tackling this question because I know someone will come along and express it a lot better than me…but here I go:

I don’t necessarily think everyone feels the same way. I also don’t think it’s cut and dry either.

I like the original performance in ESB.
I also appreciate why it was changed - now we have consistency with the same actor portraying the same character in the saga. With that said, I don’t like the altered dialogue nor do I particularly like Ian’s performance.

Now Anakin is a different story. It’s not just disrespectful to Mr. Shaw. It alters Anakins redemption.
Prior to this change, Old Anakin simply transformed into force ghost Anakin…with only battle damaged removed.

Now, going by visuals alone (this is a movie, after all) Lucas is essentially telling us that Anakin was redeemed and transformed to his pre-Sith days. That was when he was last ‘good’ and not evil.
I think the logic behind the change is probably that Anakin hasn’t done anything good in his life since his Jedi days and therefore the force is sort of “erasing” the Sith days from his life. Hence, he looks young while Obi-Wan and Yoda look old.
Since this change, my thoughts have been: Anakin WAS redeemed as an old man, therefore, he should be an old looking force ghost…for lack of a better way of putting it.

YouTubers!
Attack of the Clones | Alternate Timeline Edit
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
My OLD Return of the Jedi thread. Be gentle.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-3-new-clips/id/7919

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SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Good question. I don’t know why I’m tackling this question because I know someone will come along and express it a lot better than me…but here I go:

I don’t necessarily think everyone feels the same way. I also don’t think it’s cut and dry either.

I like the original performance in ESB.
I also appreciate why it was changed - now we have consistency with the same actor portraying the same character in the saga. With that said, I don’t like the altered dialogue nor do I particularly like Ian’s performance.

Now Anakin is a different story. It’s not just disrespectful to Mr. Shaw. It alters Anakins redemption.
Prior to this change, Old Anakin simply transformed into force ghost Anakin…with only battle damaged removed.

Now, going by visuals alone (this is a movie, after all) Lucas is essentially telling us that Anakin was redeemed and transformed to his pre-Sith days. That was when he was last ‘good’ and not evil.
I think the logic behind the change is probably that Anakin hasn’t done anything good in his life since his Jedi days and therefore the force is sort of “erasing” the Sith days from his life. Hence, he looks young while Obi-Wan and Yoda look old.
Since this change, my thoughts have been: Anakin WAS redeemed as an old man, therefore, he should be an old looking force ghost…for lack of a better way of putting it.

Would you like the dialogue if it wasn’t changed yet still performed by Ian, similar to in Adywan’s ESB:R?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Anakin WAS redeemed as an old man, therefore, he should be an old looking force ghost…for lack of a better way of putting it.

Every time these discussions come up the most simple answer is always ignored; Hayden was put in because the audience can actually identify with Hayden’s Anakin. Shaw’s Anakin is never once seen at any point until the final minutes of Return of the Jedi and Hayden’s Anakin has two entire movies and almost five hours of screen time dedicated to him. If you put Return of the Jedi in the context of the six film saga then Shaw’s Anakin is visually out of place, it’s really that simple.

There are thematic arguments in defense of both sides but the simplest answer is just audience familiarity. I personally find the hate on Hayden’s Ghost Anakin vs. the Palpatine recast extremely hypocritical and screams of anger filled double standards; trying to rationalize the double standard just digs the hole deeper.

I personally prefer Hayden’s Ghost Anakin even though I grew up with Shaw’s Ghost Anakin, but as with every SE/Theatrical debate I think both sides would be perfectly happy if both versions of the films were freely available to the public, which should be the case anyway.

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Btw, I noticed Clive Revill is still listed in the end credits of the new 4k version of ESB as the voice of the Emperor.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Good question. I don’t know why I’m tackling this question because I know someone will come along and express it a lot better than me…but here I go:

I don’t necessarily think everyone feels the same way. I also don’t think it’s cut and dry either.

I like the original performance in ESB.
I also appreciate why it was changed - now we have consistency with the same actor portraying the same character in the saga. With that said, I don’t like the altered dialogue nor do I particularly like Ian’s performance.

Now Anakin is a different story. It’s not just disrespectful to Mr. Shaw. It alters Anakins redemption.
Prior to this change, Old Anakin simply transformed into force ghost Anakin…with only battle damaged removed.

Now, going by visuals alone (this is a movie, after all) Lucas is essentially telling us that Anakin was redeemed and transformed to his pre-Sith days. That was when he was last ‘good’ and not evil.
I think the logic behind the change is probably that Anakin hasn’t done anything good in his life since his Jedi days and therefore the force is sort of “erasing” the Sith days from his life. Hence, he looks young while Obi-Wan and Yoda look old.
Since this change, my thoughts have been: Anakin WAS redeemed as an old man, therefore, he should be an old looking force ghost…for lack of a better way of putting it.

Would you like the dialogue if it wasn’t changed yet still performed by Ian, similar to in Adywan’s ESB:R?

Adywan’s is the closest, yes.

YouTubers!
Attack of the Clones | Alternate Timeline Edit
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
My OLD Return of the Jedi thread. Be gentle.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-3-new-clips/id/7919

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Everyone who I’ve shown Return of the Jedi to understood that Shaw’s ghost was Vader’s/Anakin’s.

Unrelated, but both of them cried at the scene.

i had lots of fun!!! : ) ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍

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Ryan-SWI said:

I personally find the hate on Hayden’s Ghost Anakin vs. the Palpatine recast extremely hypocritical and screams of anger filled double standards; trying to rationalize the double standard just digs the hole deeper.

I’m not sure if you’re lumping me in that category. If you are, I don’t think that’s fair.

Here’s the deal: I can get a bit hyperbolic from time to time on these boards.
Ultimately, my opinion is indeed just an opinion. It’s all subjective. It may not make sense why someone hates one change while loving another. It’s just the way it is.
I don’t understand why George Lucas made certain changes to his Star Wars Trilogy, but I don’t actually hate him for it. I poke fun at certain things about his films…but it’s all in good fun.

YouTubers!
Attack of the Clones | Alternate Timeline Edit
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
My OLD Return of the Jedi thread. Be gentle.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-3-new-clips/id/7919

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Anakin’s younger self(Hayden Christensen) doesn’t fit together with old Obi-Wan and Yoda.
If George also replaced Alec Guinness with Ewan McGregor and Yoda with the CGI puppet from II-III, it would be more consistent. Not that i would like it, i don’t think old jedi masters would choose a young appearance as ghosts.

Btw i don’t see the hypocrisy, ESBs emperor was poorly made and Ian McDiarmid has played Palpy since RotJ. He’s objectively the better emperor.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

People hate the re-casting of Anakin’s Force ghost in the 2004-present re-releases of Return of the Jedi, mainly because it is disrespectful to the now-deceased Sebastian Shaw, yet like the re-casting of Palpatine in the 2004-present re-releases The Empire Strikes Back. I don’t understand: why do people like the re-casting of Palpatine in The Empire Strikes Back if it is also disrespectful to his two now-dead actors, yet despise the re-casting of Anakin’s ghost if it is disrespectful to Sebastian Shaw? Can someone explain to me why?

Simply put, if you watch only RotJ or watch the movies in release order, the Hayden change makes no sense.
Shaw is revealed when Luke removes Vader’s mask. So a viewer knows that Shaw is Vader (David Prowse and JEJ is also Darth Vader, but we never see them), there is no connection to Hayden Christiansen, so when he suddenly appears in the Special edition it’s a total disconnect. Who is that? It’s not so much about disrespect to Shaw, as a continuity error introduced.
It also feels like a vanity change for George Lucas, like a banner rolling “Go watch my Other Star Wars trilogy to understand this scene! GL.”

As for the emperor change, I have no problem with the original effect, I prefer moviemakers NOT changing their films in retrospect apart from cleanups and directors editions. As a change, though, it has fewer problems. This is the first reveal of the emperor and he is introduced enough, while still remaining mysterious and threatening. (edit: i do avoid watching the SEd if I can)

I used to work with a guy whose last name was pronounced Forceborn. Yes, really.

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I hate both changes, and I’ll never watch any version again that is not the originals.

Hayden is especially annoying to some for obvious reasons. He has no business being in the original trilogy, and the look on his face doesn’t even match the context of the scene.

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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I hate both changes. I thought that Clive’s emperor was delightfully creepy and almost mechanoid looking. I also liked Shaw’s ghost for the sense that we finally get to meet the nice Anakin that Obiwan talked about. The replacement Anakin ghost doesn’t have that effect because he never seemed nice in the prequels. Another example of how the prequels messed up a perfectly good saga.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Biggest problem with both changes (which I don’t think everyone consensus likes OR dislikes - but trying to find a consensus in Star Wars fandom is like trying to find a rose growing at the bottom of a sewage treatment plant)

McDiarmid replacing Revill: The makeup on McDiarmid isn’t very goooooood, and the dialog changes are just extraneous additions. Styrofoam peanuts.

Christensen replacing Shaw: It’s literally a headswap from a costume test. That’s bush league. Hayden isn’t even ACTING in the scene.

I am wondering if, much in the same way McDiarmid has replaced dialog in Rebels while working on TROS, they’re going to re-do Christensen’s appearance at the end of Jedi so that he’s actually ACTING in the scene? But I guess that’s really unlikely now that we’ve seen the 4K masters and that shot hasn’t been re-done at all.

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Wait, they’ve already altered Rebels from its original version? I just started watching that on Disney+ this week!

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Broom Kid said:

Biggest problem with both changes (which I don’t think everyone consensus likes OR dislikes - but trying to find a consensus in Star Wars fandom is like trying to find a rose growing at the bottom of a sewage treatment plant)

McDiarmid replacing Revill: The makeup on McDiarmid isn’t very goooooood, and the dialog changes are just extraneous additions. Styrofoam peanuts.

Christensen replacing Shaw: It’s literally a headswap from a costume test. That’s bush league. Hayden isn’t even ACTING in the scene.

I am wondering if, much in the same way McDiarmid has replaced dialog in Rebels while working on TROS, they’re going to re-do Christensen’s appearance at the end of Jedi so that he’s actually ACTING in the scene? But I guess that’s really unlikely now that we’ve seen the 4K masters and that shot hasn’t been re-done at all.

What is your opinion on Adywan’s version of the Emperor scene, in which he edits his face to match with his appearance in Return of the Jedi and the dialogue to match with the original?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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It’s probably the best version. Unless you insist on the original from a purist standpoint.

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I know I’ve given views on this topic before but here it goes again. IMO they’re two different scenarios. One makes sense, one partially does.

I understand the Emperor change but my problem with it is the added dialogue and the fact that Ian literally delivers his lines as if he’s reading off cue cards. If it had been done similar to Adywan’s version including the look of the Emperor maybe it would have worked better. I’d still pick the original either way just on principle but anyways.

The Anakin switch is a different story. IMO without throwing the nostalgic angle on it it makes the redemption less meaningful and shows a variation of the character Luke never knew. Showing Shaw shows both a figure Luke will recognize and also represents the redeemed man who turned his back on evil, not the young whiny arrogant Jedi who did the opposite.

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The simplest explanation is the OT/PT divide. Many fans hate the PT and would rather pretend it not exist while watching the OT. Even though Ian looks as he does in ROTS, it can be ignored simply because he’s the right actor for the OT as well. But Hayden, for a lot of people he has no business being in the OT because he wasn’t in to begin with (not to mention that for many he represents the worst the PT has to offer).

I take a more reasoned approach. First of all, I almost exclusively watch the OOT, so who cares. But when we’re talking about an SE, one that is supposed to make the saga more coherent as a whole, I tend to think along these lines…

Ryan-SWI said:

Every time these discussions come up the most simple answer is always ignored; Hayden was put in because the audience can actually identify with Hayden’s Anakin. Shaw’s Anakin is never once seen at any point until the final minutes of Return of the Jedi and Hayden’s Anakin has two entire movies and almost five hours of screen time dedicated to him. If you put Return of the Jedi in the context of the six film saga then Shaw’s Anakin is visually out of place, it’s really that simple.

In the context of the whole saga, Hayden is Anakin. Sure, you can understand that Shaw is supposed to be Anakin, but the fact of the matter is he never once looked like that in any of these films. Not to mention, continuity-wise, Shaw is far too old to be playing Anakin (he still works as the unmasked Vader because his injuries, the suit, and the dark side have made him more decrepit). You can say that it doesn’t make sense that the ghost would look like he did decades before he died, but I’d argue it makes as much sense as an imagined fantasy version of older him.

Now, the other thing people complain about is that the Hayden footage was a costume test, and it doesn’t fit. This is true, and it’s a little janky, but it’s not that bad. Here’s the thing though. The people saying Shaw’s acting is not being respected? That’s silly. Shaw’s acting is intact, in his scene with Hamill. Shaw’s ‘acting’ in the ghost scene was literally just George telling him to smile at the camera. That’s it. He had no idea the context, what was going on, or why he was smiling. So I’d say that’s only marginally better than a costume test.

Ultimately what it comes down to for me is that Anakin/Vader shouldn’t end up with a ghost at all at the end of the movie, so both versions are stupid to me, personally.

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crissrudd4554 said:

I know I’ve given views on this topic before but here it goes again. IMO they’re two different scenarios. One makes sense, one partially does.

I understand the Emperor change but my problem with it is the added dialogue and the fact that Ian literally delivers his lines as if he’s reading off cue cards. If it had been done similar to Adywan’s version including the look of the Emperor maybe it would have worked better. I’d still pick the original either way just on principle but anyways.

The Anakin switch is a different story. IMO without throwing the nostalgic angle on it it makes the redemption less meaningful and shows a variation of the character Luke never knew. Showing Shaw shows both a figure Luke will recognize and also represents the redeemed man who turned his back on evil, not the young whiny arrogant Jedi who did the opposite.

Was going to respond, but this is exactly how I feel about it so I’m just gonna quote you.

a trolling bantha

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Broom Kid said:

I am wondering if, much in the same way McDiarmid has replaced dialog in Rebels while working on TROS, they’re going to re-do Christensen’s appearance at the end of Jedi so that he’s actually ACTING in the scene? But I guess that’s really unlikely now that we’ve seen the 4K masters and that shot hasn’t been re-done at all.

Well, actually the 4k masters were re-done. It makes sense why they didn’t redo that shot though.

Love your username by the way

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I really don’t mind having Ian in that shot but what I don’t like is how inconsistently placed it is, in terms of looks. ROTJ’s Emperor looks more slender and sunken in compared to… Puffy ROTS’s Emperor.

JEDIT: I almost forgot Adywan’s edit, as mentioned earlier.

The Rise of Failures

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My dislike of one and apathy towards the other comes from the films internal consistency.

Imagine watching ESB for the first time. It does not matter which version you watch, all you know is that this is a brand new character and it’s consistent in that film. When you switch over to return of the Jedi and the actor changes (if you watch the theatrical version) then you just assume stuff happened behind the scenes and this is now the Emperor.

The problem with ROTJ is that Hayden at the end breaks the films internal consistency. I don’t know over any other film (besides that movie for Heath Leger after he died) that had multiple actors embody the same character. If you’re a first time viewer of ROTJ and it’s the first Star Wars movie you’ve seen ever then it’ll be really odd to see a brand new, never before seen, actor portraying… well you can’t even be sure if you have no prior knowledge to bass it off of. That is why the replacement of Sebastian Shaw is so much more reviled then the replacement of the Emperor.

TPM ROTJ ESB TFA TLJ TROS ROTS ANH SOLO RO ATOC

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Both suck. Palpatine in the 2004 version has worse lines and gives a worse performance. He also has the crappy ROTS makeup.

Yub Nub for life

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ChainsawAsh said:

crissrudd4554 said:

I know I’ve given views on this topic before but here it goes again. IMO they’re two different scenarios. One makes sense, one partially does.

I understand the Emperor change but my problem with it is the added dialogue and the fact that Ian literally delivers his lines as if he’s reading off cue cards. If it had been done similar to Adywan’s version including the look of the Emperor maybe it would have worked better. I’d still pick the original either way just on principle but anyways.

The Anakin switch is a different story. IMO without throwing the nostalgic angle on it it makes the redemption less meaningful and shows a variation of the character Luke never knew. Showing Shaw shows both a figure Luke will recognize and also represents the redeemed man who turned his back on evil, not the young whiny arrogant Jedi who did the opposite.

Was going to respond, but this is exactly how I feel about it so I’m just gonna quote you.

Fair enough. 😉