logo Sign In

Why doesn't Lucus just release both versions? — Page 2

Author
Time
Another thing I don't believe Lucas hate the original trilogy. He wrote the scripts he just could do all the effects he wanted. With budget and technical limitations of the time. The Special Editions were essencially the same story the same movie.
Author
Time
Quote

Originally posted by: jimbo
Listen OK people like effects. Thats why just about every new movie has em. People prefer seeing the Wampa to just hearing him. People prefer digital creatures to puppets that I didn't even know were suppose to be creatures.

Again, I ask... you know this how? We challenged you with this before and you never brought forth the evidence. In fact, as I recall, you disappeared for a while. Show us your proof.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
How can I. Someone needs to do a poll of this.
Author
Time
Jimbo, the problem is that Lucas didn't simply go in and add footage that couldn't be shot at that time. Most of the scenes that were modified/added result from him changing his mind about them 20 years later.

The only things I think that weren't possible due to technical limitations back then were:

*Luke's Landspeeder without the 'forcefield' and blurry vehicle shadow.

*The Jabba the Hutt scene in ANH (although I think even that was only left out because they hadn't decided what Jabba should look like, fact is that the technological hurdle arose when they decided to make Jabba a huge slug-like creature in RotJ). The scene in ANH was left out on purpose back then, not because of technical hurdles, imho.

*More agile Dewbacks.

*The Jawa riding on the huge beast of burden.

*Fancier blastoff of the Falcon from Mos Eisley

*Censoring the violent scenes aboard the Death Star shootouts

*Adding the "Close the blastdoors!" line to the stormtroopers (Hehe, in fact that seems to be a goofup from the sound-editors,
because that line is in the 1977 version of the german voiceover. So it was truly intended to be in there from the start.)

*Rebel ships starting from Yavin IV.

*More vivid space battle during the assault on the Death Star.

*Extended Whampa creature footage.

*Toned down opacity of snowspeeder cockpits.

*More flexible camera paths during the Falcons approach to Cloud City

*Mass scene of people listening to Lando's announcement.

*"Jedi Rock" Musical scene in Jabba's palace.

Everything else could have been done in the first place without much of a hassle, imho. Lucas is just not being honest about this and I really can't understand why. It almost feels like he knew he'd be sneaking in stuff that fans wouldn't like. Instead of being honest and saying "Well, I changed my mind about some of the decisions and compromises I made back then and they don't fit in my Star Wars agenda nowadays, so I went in and adjusted them.", he hides behind the 'technological limitations at that time' statement as some sort of universal excuse for every change he made.

Many of the cool things that got into the special editions (meeting Biggs Darklighter before the Death Star assault, extended Whampa scene, removing the 'forcefield' from Luke's landspeeder and toning down the opacity of the snowspeeder cockpits) is just the sugar added to the mix to distract from the scenes Lucas changed his mind about, imho.

Also, even if he would be worried about the OT outselling the SE, he could avoid that very easily by including the OT with the SE in a big double package. That way the OT sales could simply be added up to the SE sales.

Edit: Refrased post fundamentally.
Author
Time
The Wampa scene was tried and failed in the original versions. The effects department kept building Wampa suits but none of them worked properly. The Special Edition scene is definutly how it was intended. How many scenes could have been done at the time. Greedo shotting first and a couple dialog changes (most of which are better) but the majority of changes were what was attempted and failed to do on the originals.
Author
Time
Yah, I agree with you on the Wampa scene, it feels like it always belonged there (in fact my post above didn't state anything else). I actually like the added footage a lot.

Ehm... are you trying to tell me they weren't able to get Mark Hamill to record a scream for ESB back when it was made?! Or that Greedo shooting first was impossible to make back when they did ANH? If you are, I'm not agreeing on that one for sure.

Imho, that was Lucas changing his mind and trying to cram those changes in there by all means necessary, regardless of how fake it would seem. That gives me the impression that he just wanted to get back at the people who forced any sort of compromise upon him back then.
Author
Time
The Special Editions have litterally hundreds of changes. Probably around 10-15 could have been done back then. I agree that Greedo shotting first was always meant to be there is bullshit. I do dislike this change but whatever it is so small. Lukes scream what is the problem? Who cares? Why is this a bad change?
Author
Time
Jimbo, you've got me wrong there. I'm not argueing along the lines of "good/bad". I'm more into "was possible/was not possible back in '77-'84". Making Luke scream while taking the escape plunge from Vader surely was possible back then, that's the point I meant to make. It's just another example of Lucas changing his mind, yet claiming it couldn't be done back then due to technical limitations of the time.

The list I posted above, contains all the FX that truly weren't possible at the time the films were originally made, imho. All the changes not in that list were possible back when the films were shot and thus prove that the SE were mostly about giving Lucas a chance to go back and have his way with his changed mind about a great many things - not about improving SFX.
Author
Time
You forgot to mention the sarlacc pit. According to Lucas he originally intended for a stop motion puppet in the Jabba scene. He said Jabba was originally going to be a furry character. There are more changes that could not have been done at the time. I am also glad he took out that horrendous ewok song. If his mind changed it is mostly for the better.

Heres a link to a list of all changes Text
Author
Time
Jimbo, that the SE changes are "mostly for the better" is your opinion and your welcome to it, just as I feel the changes are mostly for the worse is my opinion, and as a result the original OT are far better films.

Nonetheless, I embrace all versions of Star Wars and would recommend to Lucas that he do the same which is the point of the topic title of this thread.
The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!
Author
Time
Fine look at the list in the link and have a good complaint against the majority of those changes.
Author
Time
This isn't some mathematical formula, where the SE has x amount of good changes and y amount of bad changes and therefore if the x was more than y then somehow the SE is a better movie.

By that logic if there were equal amounts of both good x and bad y in the SE then the SE would somehow be equivalent to the original OT. Taking it further perhaps Lucas could insanely fugger up the OT even more with adding more Jar Jar, or changing Luke and Leia never kissing (they're brother and sister!) or Luke never losing his hand and gets a good spanking from his dad instead or just whatever, and as long as he added way more super-duper improved CGI to every frame of film and that such 'improvements' outnumbered the 'bad' changes than would the newer SE/AE/UE versions be better?

Of course not. Films, movies, whatever are art. When it comes to art it simply either works or it doesn't. It is in fact the littlest, or subtlest changes or nuances that makes something from simply okay or good, to great. Not all changes are equal. Just compare the two different versions of Brazil from a thought-provoking cynical ending to a 180 happy ending. No different than cutting/missing the last minute of Night of the Living Dead or 12 Monkeys where one might assume a happing ending when it is clearly not. Hitchcock removed that last minute of Vertigo that would have utterly transformed the dark despair to a simple whodunnit.

You may argue that the changes in the SE are not as signficant as adding a happy ending to Casablanca, or the original sad break-up endings to When Harry Met Sally or Pretty Woman. And perhaps they are not, it's certainly arguable. I however argue that are changes are significant and greatly alter the mood, flow, and most importantly character of the films. Adding Jabba isn't just bad CGI and acting (which it is) but it also takes away from the first time Luke (and the audience) even sees the immense and impressive full scale Falcon. It's just breathtaking. And that's why it's funny when Luke calls it a pile of junk, unlike the audience as a character in the Star Wars universe he of course would be used to space ships. The Luke scream in TESB is just a tiny audio change and yet it utterly alters Lukes character. From a poor and rash Jedi student who wouldn't listen to Yoda or Obi-Wan, to being defeated by Darth Vader and given the ultimate choice, Luke finally does the right thing and chooses against the darkside (something his father clearly failed to do) even at the cost of possibly his own life. But his tragic, honourable, yet deeply calm and thoughtful choice becomes a comical scream for survival, and what was a great dramatic moment in TESB, something that really elevated the film becomes a blah pointless annoyance, Luke might as well have slipped and fell off.

These are just a few examples. Maybe they are small changes, but they are SIGNIFICANT changes. As it is there a few small, but fatally significant changes that make the SE poorer films in comparison. Different, interesting in their own way even, but poorer. And the fact is, if they weren't significant, then Lucas himself wouldn't have done them. That's why George should release both versions.
The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!
Author
Time
I agree with sweyland. Small changes can have a large impact. Especially when it comes to changes that actually degrade instead of improve and are meant to have a major impact on how certain characters are portrayed (Greedo shooting first being the most prominent example, heck even jimbo doesn't like that one). Censoring the Death Star gunfights certainly is yet another thing even jimbo wouldn't call an improvement, I suppose.

However I also agree with jimbo, that there are a lot of things that just intensify the mood (the capture of R2 in the SE is a good example, imho) of the setting. I liked moving that scene further into dusk, it kinda gave it an eerie feel to the first jawa encounter.

Finally, I have to say that I share rebel scumb's list of changes that had to be removed to make me embrace the SE a bit more. Lots of things are actually cool changes.

As soon as that OT+SE DVD set will come out, I'll make my custom version of the trilogy with perfect sound and picture. Coming to think of it, that may be what Lucas is afraid of. Just another one of those guesses... I guess.
Author
Time
Give me a break sweyland. Lukes sceam didn't do anything for or against that scene. The scream was never comic it just makes sense that he would scream. Most made the whole movie more alive more epic and just better. I also loved he cut out that horrendous ewok song. Thing is for me personally I don't want three versions of the same movie I just want whichever one is best. I wouldn't mind Lucas releasing the originals for those who want them. But for me all I want are the Special Editions.
Author
Time
Give you a break?

You asked, I answered.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. That you don't seem to understand the differences or the reasons for it is too bad though and I can't help you there. Perhaps opening up your horizons a little in the future will help.

In any case, I agree with you that best version of the classic Star Wars trilogy should certainly be made available to people, and that is clearly the original version
The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!
Author
Time
You didn't answer I want you to go through every change and have a compliant for them all.
Author
Time
I believe that I've already illustrated my point (thanks for understanding Sifo-Dyas).

I never said I had a complaint with every change, I said that the changes in the SE made the films worse. Be it many bad changes or even just one significant change, if it has a damaging effect on the overall film then even an infinite number of small improvements cannot and do not balance that out.

If you like most of the changes in the SE, that's fine. To me, the SE are lesser films. Failing to understand, or being unable to see things from another point of view is simply unfortunate, but being obstinate about it won't help you. I enjoy discussing different views on films, but I certainly don't see any point in continuing this exercise as you seem to have your mind set no matter what, so I would recommend that you just drop it.

To each his own.
The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!