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Which is considered canon, the Special Edition or GOUT? — Page 2

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Alderaan said:

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

The "alert my star destroyer" line originally came from a deleted Star Wars (1977) scene, hence it doesn't fit the Cloud City shuttle scene.

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knreuben said:

...continue to follow the traditions of the unaltered versions.

What tradition is that? No CGI?

knreuben said:

While the Special Edition connects with the Prequels....

Not the Special Edition...

真実

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Alderaan said:

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

That is one of the best changes in SE. The original scene with dumb anger mood completely contradicted the character of Vader as presented throughout the film. He was an intelligent villain, not some angry moron. Nothing seems to be able to upset him and that is what makes him even more cool.

He was being failed most clumsily by his officers and yet he showed no anger when he was executing them. On contrary, he did it with sarcasm, wit and style... making clam remarks like "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" while choking the guy to the death.

And the original scene also contradicted the scenes that follows. On the Star Destroyer, Vader is very clam and his primary emotion seem to be disappointment. There is no sign of any anger. He doesn't even choke Piett and instead he simply just leaves the bridge in silence.

真実

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darklordoftech said:

Alderaan said:

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

The "alert my star destroyer" line originally came from a deleted Star Wars (1977) scene, hence it doesn't fit the Cloud City shuttle scene.

 Whatever the actual source, it still sounds like JEJ with a bad cold. ;)

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imperialscum said:

Alderaan said:

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

That is one of the best changes in SE. The original scene with dumb anger mood completely contradicted the character of Vader as presented throughout the film. He was an intelligent villain, not some angry moron. Nothing seems to be able to upset him and that is what makes him even more cool.

He was being failed most clumsily by his officers and yet he showed no anger when he was executing them. On contrary, he did it with sarcasm, wit and style... making clam remarks like "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" while choking the guy to the death.

And the original scene also contradicted the scenes that follows. On the Star Destroyer, Vader is very clam and his primary emotion seem to be disappointment. There is no sign of any anger. He doesn't even choke Piett and instead he simply just leaves the bridge in silence.

Just ... no. Mother damn it no. Holy **** NO!

You must have missed the part where Vader lost his patience and went from toying with Luke to wailing away at him like a madman. Then raised his voice and inflected it with anger. Etc.

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Alderaan said:

imperialscum said:

Alderaan said:

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

That is one of the best changes in SE. The original scene with dumb anger mood completely contradicted the character of Vader as presented throughout the film. He was an intelligent villain, not some angry moron. Nothing seems to be able to upset him and that is what makes him even more cool.

He was being failed most clumsily by his officers and yet he showed no anger when he was executing them. On contrary, he did it with sarcasm, wit and style... making clam remarks like "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" while choking the guy to the death.

And the original scene also contradicted the scenes that follows. On the Star Destroyer, Vader is very clam and his primary emotion seem to be disappointment. There is no sign of any anger. He doesn't even choke Piett and instead he simply just leaves the bridge in silence.

Just ... no. Mother damn it no. Holy **** NO!

You must have missed the part where Vader lost his patience and went from toying with Luke to wailing away at him like a madman. Then raised his voice and inflected it with anger. Etc.

There is NO such thing to fit your description. He just makes a short yell sound (of pain) when Luke hits his shoulder. It is just the fact that human central nervous system reacts to body damage. That has nothing to do with anger. Two seconds later Luke's hand is chopped off and he calmly says "There is no escape...".

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The Bespin duel can be divided into three parts.

1. Vader toying with Luke (he can kick his *** at any moment)

2. Vader turns the screws a bit by using the dark side

3. Vader finally gets annoyed and loses his patience

It's in the last stanza of the fight that he stops screwing around and just starts wailing away at Luke. He's clearly pissed off and mad and lost his cool. After he severs Luke's hand, you can hear the anger in James Earl Jones's voice.

The same thing happened in the ROTJ duel. They are just kind of fighting in front of the Emperor for awhile, then Vader threatens Leia, Luke uses the dark side and just starts physically wailing away at Vader with pure rage.

You can't pick up on the emotional changes in these fights?

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Alderaan said:

You can't pick up on the emotional changes in these fights?

I can... but anger is not one of them. Well at least not on Vader's side.

And losing patience in a sense of swiftly ending the fight has nothing to do with anger. He came to the point where Luke was physically cornered and he had move to the final step of his plan.

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I always thought that the point of the end of Empire was that Vader was losing his cool. He gets progressively frustrated when Luke refuses to join him, and spends the rest of the film seething. That he doesn't kill Piett has more to do with how distracted he is at how close he came to having Luke within his clutches, but that he squeezed too hard.

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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It is not seething... it is disappointment.

Before and at the beginning of the duel he is mainly enthusiastic to finally meet his son. When he disarms him and reveals the fact that he is his father he is excited and hyped up. After Luke turns him down he is utterly disappointed.

It is very natural in terms of father/son aspect. I see no reason what-so-ever for anger in this situation.

真実

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Alderaan said:

imperialscum said:

Alderaan said:

*Vader doesn't calmly say "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" when he's seething with rage.

That is one of the best changes in SE. The original scene with dumb anger mood completely contradicted the character of Vader as presented throughout the film. He was an intelligent villain, not some angry moron. Nothing seems to be able to upset him and that is what makes him even more cool.

He was being failed most clumsily by his officers and yet he showed no anger when he was executing them. On contrary, he did it with sarcasm, wit and style... making clam remarks like "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" while choking the guy to the death.

And the original scene also contradicted the scenes that follows. On the Star Destroyer, Vader is very clam and his primary emotion seem to be disappointment. There is no sign of any anger. He doesn't even choke Piett and instead he simply just leaves the bridge in silence.

Just ... no. Mother damn it no. Holy **** NO!

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

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imperialscum said:

And losing patience in a sense of swiftly ending the fight has nothing to do with anger. He came to the point where Luke was physically cornered and he had move to the final step of his plan.

Screaming in pain when Luke manages to chop a chunk out of his shoulder, was all part of his master plan? Because to me that's the reason he loses his cool and maims Luke 1 second later.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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Ryan McAvoy said:

imperialscum said:

And losing patience in a sense of swiftly ending the fight has nothing to do with anger. He came to the point where Luke was physically cornered and he had move to the final step of his plan.

Screaming in pain when Luke manages to chop a chunk out of his shoulder, was all part of his master plan? Because to me that's the reason he loses his cool and maims Luke 1 second later.

No, getting hit in his shoulder is irrelevant. The plan was to corner Luke and disarm him in order to persuade him to join him. He came to this point when the they moved to the very edge of that small platform. Regardless of Luke hitting his shoulder, there was no space and no reason to prolong the fight.

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imperialscum said:

I can... but anger is not one of them. Well at least not on Vader's side.

And losing patience in a sense of swiftly ending the fight has nothing to do with anger. He came to the point where Luke was physically cornered and he had move to the final step of his plan.

You said this and also something about Vader being cool and calculating (which he is) but his characterization is not flat and cartoonish in Empire like it was in Star Wars. There's a reason why he's shown in his pod on the Executor -- it's to give his character more depth. He's sneaking around behind the Emperor's back. He's personally going down onto Hoth to apprehend Skywalker himself. The whole thing is personal. He starts the film obsessed with Luke and ends the film even more obsessed with Luke.

Neither is the Bespin duel a flat scene. As in all good film scenes, Vader the character changes from beginning to end. It's not a static good guy and bad guy trying to overcome each other fight. Vader starts out with tons of patience. He wants the fight to drag on. He wants to see what Luke is made of. He expresses disappointment when he thought Luke had fallen into the freezing chamber so easily. There's a glee in his voice when he realizes Luke escaped and the fight could go on.

After awhile though, he's clearly getting annoyed at Luke's resistance and wants to end the fight as quickly as possible. Watch the manner in which he violently swings his lightsaber during the final stanza of the fight. Listen to the sound effects, how increasingly explosive they sound. The subtle inflections to Vader's voice. He's annoyed and the uncontrollable rage is slowly building within him. And yet, when he overpowers Luke, he still doesn't harm him. He simply holds the blade in front of Luke's face and threatens him. Luke fights back and physically hurts him, and that sends Vader over the edge. He chops off Luke's hand and has to hold back when he says "don't make me destroy you." --If you listen carefully, I've always thought those words sounded different than Vader's previous empty threats. He really kinda actually means it that time. But then again, he pulls back, and his next lines are filled more with exasperation and pleading than anything else.

imperialscum said:

It is not seething... it is disappointment.

I don't think Vader ever expresses any disappointment until he walks off the bridge of the Executor at the end of the film. When he leaves Bespin, he's still trying to cool off from the fight. He's not acting like a madman, but when he says "bring my shuttle" he definitely sounds like someone who is not happy and just got done fighting an emotional and draining battle. The change to "alert my star destroyer blah blah blah" just sounds like someone who was doing their every day job. The entire film worked tirelessly to humanize Vader and make his obsession with Luke personal. The change in dialogue, thus, does not match.

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imperialscum said:

No, getting hit in his shoulder is irrelevant. The plan was to corner Luke and disarm him in order to persuade him to join him. He came to this point when the they moved to the very edge of that small platform. Regardless of Luke hitting his shoulder, there was no space and no reason to prolong the fight.

I don't think you've explored the emotional depth in this film to its full extent.

Further, the thing that really bothers me is that the screenwriter, actors, and other producers (like Kurtz) ... as well as the sound effects and visual effects people ... ALL understood these complexities and put them in the original film.

George Lucas obviously did not understand these complexities, and retroactively took them out of the film, turning scenes and dialogue from 3d to flat.

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It seems it is pointless since we just have different opinion on the whole matter. The thing is I don't see even a hint of any anger in the scene. As I said, the primary emotion at that point is excitement, which can be clearly read from his voice when he reveals that he is in fact his father and when he asks him to join him.

Alderaan said:

I don't think you've explored the emotional depth in this film to its full extent.

I think did. It is just that I feel you got it wrong. And what you seemed to have "explored" is much less complex. As I stated in my previous posts, there are many emotions and emotional changes going on. It is just that anger is not one of them and does not fit in there.

真実

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imperialscum said:

It seems it is pointless since we just have different opinion on the whole matter.

It may be pointless but there's no harm in civilly discussing a topic.

I find it interesting in your response to Ryan you only mentioned "his plan". "Plan" again. And so on. You say you understand the emotions going on in the scene, but you didn't reference any. You simply kept coming back to an agenda, as if Vader is a static character merely trying to succeed in his goal.

What I'm trying to point out is that, unlike Star Wars, Vader's character is not presented in a static way in Empire. There are a series of setups and payoffs that painstakingly try to humanize him and make emotional changes in him plausible. Entire scenes and lines of dialogue earlier in the film were specifically created so that Vader would seem like a human being capable of vulnerable emotions by the end of the film ... but you are arguing that he was a 2-dimensional "calm and cool" character just trying to get his job done.

It's clear the scriptwriter did not feel the same as you. And if you listen to the subtext conveyed through the changing intonations of Vader's voice during the Bespin duel, it's clear James Earl Jones did not agree with you. And if you listen to the increasingly explosive sound effects and visual fx during that duel, it's clear the people creating those effects also espoused the view that Vader's emotional outburst was growing and swelling as the duel proceeded towards its climax.

It's highly unlikely that all of those people shared the same interpretation by mere coincidence.

All in my opinion of course.

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Alderaan said:

imperialscum said:

It seems it is pointless since we just have different opinion on the whole matter.

It may be pointless but there's no harm in civilly discussing a topic.

I find it interesting in your response to Ryan you only mentioned "his plan". "Plan" again. And so on. You say you understand the emotions going on in the scene, but you didn't reference any. You simply kept coming back to an agenda, as if Vader is a static character merely trying to succeed in his goal.

What I'm trying to point out is that, unlike Star Wars, Vader's character is not presented in a static way in Empire. There are a series of setups and payoffs that painstakingly try to humanize him and make emotional changes in him plausible. Entire scenes and lines of dialogue earlier in the film were specifically created so that Vader would seem like a human being capable of vulnerable emotions by the end of the film ... but you are arguing that he was a 2-dimensional "calm and cool" character just trying to get his job done.

It's clear the scriptwriter did not feel the same as you. And if you listen to the subtext conveyed through the changing intonations of Vader's voice during the Bespin duel, it's clear James Earl Jones did not agree with you. And if you listen to the increasingly explosive sound effects and visual fx during that duel, it's clear the people creating those effects also espoused the view that Vader's emotional outburst was growing and swelling as the duel proceeded towards its climax.

It's highly unlikely that all of those people shared the same interpretation by mere coincidence.

All in my opinion of course.

 

And you've mirrored my opinion of this scene too. Excellently argued points, and all correct.

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Alderaan said:

You say you understand the emotions going on in the scene, but you didn't reference any.

Just because you don't read my posts it doesn't mean they don't exist...

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Which-is-considered-canon-the-Special-Edition-or-GOUT/post/743033/#TopicPost743033

imperialscum said:

Before and at the beginning of the duel he is mainly enthusiastic to finally meet his son. When he disarms him and reveals the fact that he is his father he is excited and hyped up. After Luke turns him down he is utterly disappointed.

It is very natural in terms of father/son aspect. I see no reason what-so-ever for anger in this situation.

 

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"Bring my shuttle" is said not necessarily angrily. The primary emotion there is frustration. Disappointment causes frustration.

After Luke turns him down he is utterly disappointed.

So "bring my shuttle" is in fact correct for the situation according to your logic.

Besides that you're missing the fact that this SE change adds highly unnecessary footage and RUINS THE MUSIC. Enough said. Awful change.

Argument over. Stop arguing with imperialscum. Done. Stop it.

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DominicCobb said:

"Bring my shuttle" is said not necessarily angrily. The primary emotion there is frustration. Disappointment causes frustration.

After Luke turns him down he is utterly disappointed.

So "bring my shuttle" is in fact correct for the situation according to your logic.

Besides that you're missing the fact that this SE change adds highly unnecessary footage and RUINS THE MUSIC. Enough said. Awful change.

Argument over. Stop arguing with imperialscum. Done. Stop it.

It is quite obviously said in angry manner. I am not against the line itself, just how it was said.

Don't get me wrong. I think the new line is lame for the given situation. I just feel that I rather have the new one than the old one said in such inappropriate fashion.

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DominicCobb said:

Besides that you're missing the fact that this SE change adds highly unnecessary footage and RUINS THE MUSIC. Enough said. Awful change.

So right. The ruined pacing from that new cut is the worst change of all.

Exhibit A that while Lucas may be able to create the background of a story, he can't tell one for ****.

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The OOT ending of ROTJ didn't make sense anyway. Why was anakin suddenly a normal guy instead of bald and pasty white? I don't mind most of the retcons of the Special Editions so I hope they follow that.

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He's a ghost who has redeemed himself, therefore he appears as if he never took a lava bath. (Or spent twenty years wearing a walking iron lung suit.) It's also a way to console Luke, and essentially say "It's okay son, you really did save me."

It's not that hard to figure out.

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