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Which do you think is a better ESB plot twist? Where do you think the other one would have lead?

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I found out recently that when they were filming ESB there was a false page in the script that said Obi-Wan killed Luke's father instead of the famous I am your father revelation. Someone on youtube (not me) even made a mockup of what the revelation would have looked like.

Personally, I think that the I am your Father revelation is much more shocking but I can't help but imagine an alternate trilogy where Luke's father and Vader were different people. ROTJ could play out pretty much the same except with Vader realizing that he owes it to his old friend, Luke's father, to make sure his son doesn't fall to the dark side of the force. As he watches Luke, he could remember his friend's death. For some reason, it seems to make more sense to me that two Jedi turned to the dark side and not just one.

Anyway, which do you think is a more shocking twist? If they had used the Obi-Wan, what different directions would the third movie have been lead in? I'm just curious about everyone's thoughts on the matter.

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Now that's an interesting idea. 

I think Lucas might've been thinking about that element with ROTS. I mean Obi Wan did leave Anakin with his limbs all chopped off burning to death, that's pretty close to having killed him...

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Now do I like the idea of the established set-up from the first movie remaining as it is, and things playing out the way you said? Yea sure, why not, could've been really cool.

But in that case, I'd prefer they'd have no "twist" shoehorned into the story at all - let Vader just tempt Luke with ruling the Galaxy or whatever, and then continue spinning the plot.

To the question "which" twist I find better, I can definitely say the one that was in the movie. Surely, Obi-Wan being the bad guy all along would've been more SHOCKING, but think about it - it would be a more disturbing case of reframing and retconning than even the worst "hot pants Leia's your sister" boner killer.

The warm-hearted, fatherly, good mentor from the first movie... that keeps hovering around you as a helpful guide ghost... is the VILLAIN? Shocking, but so shocking that it turns right around to cheap.

 

Vader Luke's father? Pretty shocking. But exactly as much as it needs to be.

Just for the record, I'm not saying you can't have a story where the hero's mentor is an evilhead, or that it isn't an archetypal trope, as well. Or that it doesn't make sense.

Spiderman 1-2 did it, but went the easy route of "alter egos". Batman Begins did it, but the hero's relationship with Qui-Gon Jinn was only established in like a short montage prologue, and the guy once again acted with such understatement, and the ninja clan revealed as villaneous so early in the movie, that it lost any effectiveness whatsoever. Matrix 3 could've done it with the Oracle, but didn't dare apparently.

In this csae, if you just took the movies as they are, and "swapped the twists" in an otherwise almost identical scene, the one with Obi-Wan would certainly, certainly be worse.

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Obi-Wan doesn't necessarily have to be the villian to have killed luke's father.

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Quackula said:

Obi-Wan doesn't necessarily have to be the villian to have killed luke's father.

Sure, you could've then dicked out and give it a context in a ROTJ-like, more lighthearted follow-up, but really, what DOES the "Obi-Wan killed your Father!" and subsequent shocked reaction really imply at first glance? And what kind of shock value does "they were in a space battle and Obi-Wan kinda blew him up while trying to fend off buzz droids" reall have?

Also there would be a kind of narrative problem with yet another backstory jedi having turned evil at the same time as Vader, and then the other one killed, along the lines of second death star.

But not saying either alternative would've been inherently bad, depends on how it would've been continued and wrapped up, obviously.

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Well, hell, even in the continuity set up by the prequels, Vader telling Luke "Obi-Wan killed your father" could have made perfect sense.  Like someone said, Obi-Wan did chop off Anakin's limbs and sadistically left him to burn to death (to borrow from Confused Matthew), and Anakin was under the impression that Obi-Wan was banging his wife, so, from a certain point of view, I could see Vader trying to make Luke swallow the pill that Obi-Wan was evil.  And then in the next movie, Luke would have had to rationalize his loyalties, and Obi-Wan would have to prove why exactly what he did had to be done.  Hell, just from the context of the original trilogy, you could have both revelations.  You could have Vader tell Luke Obi-Wan tried to kill his father, then have Obi-Wan admit to Luke that that was indeed the case, but that he had a very good reason for dimembering Luke's lifelong hero:  that he is, in fact, Darth Vader, but Obi-Wan had been too afraid for Luke's feelings to tell him.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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That could've been very cool!

I'm forwarding this to Lucas now, hopefully he can remake those original movies somehow to fit with th- oh...

 

:D

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WOW! That is an amazing theory, Gaffer Tape! In your version, Luke would have been truly alone for the first time. Han is captured. He can't trust Obi-Wan and probably Yoda. Also, he is uncertain about his father and Darth Vader. I actually had something far less elegant in mind.

My theory was that Darth Vader would make the big reveal that Obi Wan killed your father in ESB, and ESB would end that way, with lots of uncertainty much like the normal one we are used to. The audience would be left wondering what the revelation meant exactly. Does it mean that Obi-Wan has been a villain all along? Did Luke's father turn to the dark side? Is Vader lying altogether?

Episode VI would have taken place right after Empire instead of a couple of Years after. In Episode VI, Leia, Chewbacca, and Lando would have saved Han in the beginning of the movie without Luke. Leia would be the leader of the rescue operation and no longer become a slave girl.

Meanwhile, Luke would fly back to Dagobah, eager to confront Yoda and Obi-Wan. When there, Luke would find that Yoda has passed away. He would become furious then find Ben's ghost standing there. Obi-Wan would explain that Luke's father had indeed fallen to the dark side of the force, along with Obi-Wan's padawan: Vader. Along with the emperor, Vader and Luke's father committed the purge of the Jedi, with help of the clones. Only a few Jedi survived, including Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace Windu (finally his character actually does something). Obi-Wan, the more powerful Jedi, can't bring himself to confront his apprentice. He goes and duels with Luke's father and sadly kills him, on Mustafar (as shown in the prequel trilogy). Mace Windu confronts Vader but fails. Mace dies but Vader is maimed. He gets put in the suit and is saddened when he hears Luke's father, his friend, has been killed.

Luke reluctantly accepts this truth, as he senses it to be true. Leia is not Luke's sister. When Luke, Leia, Han, and Lando regroup with the rebels, they find out that the Empire has been simultaneously and secretly constructing two smaller versions of the Death Star. There are currently two of these small Death Stars, which are not as powerful as the original but have the power to kill all life on a planet's surface (but not actually destroy the planets). The rebels decide that it is finally time to invade the Imperial capital on Coruscant. Han (with Chewbacca) and Lando go to destroy the two Death Stars; each one takes one Death Star. They spend the majority of the movie, trying to destroy the Death Stars. They eventually manage to get in one of the Death Stars and Lando stays to pilot it to crash into the other one. Han Solo says goodbye to his friend and leaves. Lando dies as the two Death Stars crash.

Meanwhile, Leia and Luke go on a mission to invade Coruscant. Luke's mission is to assassinate the Emperor and also unlock the gates that bar the main part of the capital where all the Imperial officials are. The control to unlock the gates is in the Emperor's throne room. He morally debates whether it is ethical to use his Jedi powers not for defense but to assassinate someone. He becomes conflicted and confused. He rationalizes the planned assassination by hating the Emperor.

Meanwhile, Leia invades the outer part of the capital and tries to hold it until the gates can be unlocked. Luke is able to gain access to the throne room but finds Vader and the Emperor awaiting him. He confronts Vader, saying that he knows the truth, and they have a duel as the Emperor watches. The Emperor proceeds to insult Luke's father and calls him a disgrace and a failure, as Obi-Wan defeated him. Luke becomes angry and uses the anger to defeat but not kill Vader (though Vader loses his hand). He has almost fallen to the dark side of the force just like his father. Luke looks at Vader's hand then at his own mechanical hand. He drops his lightsaber. He won't turn.

The Emperor is angered and begins shocking him, as in the movie. The Emperor is telling Luke how he is a failure like his father. Vader then hears the voice of Luke's father, Ben, and Yoda and realizes that he owes it to his dead friend to save his son from the dark side. Vader then takes his lightsaber and is about to strike the Emperor, in Luke's defense. The Emperor sees this and starts shocking Vader. Vader still manages to strike the Emperor down. The Emperor does not disappear, as he belonged to the dark side of the force. Vader collapses with his life support system permanently damaged. Luke consoles Vader as he dies, glad that Vader has turned back to the light side of the force. Vader's body disappears, showing that he truly redeemed himself and Luke. Luke then manages to deactivate the gates to the inner capital.

Leia leads the invasion force into the inner capital and captures the Empire. The Rebellion has won once and for all. At the end of the movie, Han and Leia are married. Luke is shown to be forming a new Jedi order. They have a celebration on Coruscant and the force ghosts of Luke's father, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Vader appear.

So there you have it. That was my mega theory to how the different twist would have lead. On second thought, maybe since I am asking for where the alternate twist would lead, this thread should be recategorized into Script Re-Writing. Moth3r, if you want to move this thread, I fully support your decision.

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 (Edited)

I like the Vader is Luke's father twist better, but the other is interesting.

Gaffer Tape said:

...Anakin was under the impression that Obi-Wan was banging his wife...

I don't even remember that. They should have played that up more- Ben should have been deeply in love with Amidala, then rejected when Amidala chose Anakin over him.

Not that that would have made those movies NOT crap, but it couldn't have made them any worse.

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Well, that's one of those subplots that was *mostly* cut out of the finished film, except for a few leftovers, like when Padme mentions that Obi-Wan stopped by, and Anakin says, "Obi-Wan was here?" like he was really suspicious, and then his manic ranting and raving on Mustafar ("You're with him!  You brought him here to kill meeeeeeeee!")  That kind of crap.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Is it a real cut sub-plot or is it something that exists more in the mind of the fans?  I honestly don't know, I haven't bothered to research the script or read any of the 'making of' books.  I have looked extensively at a picture of a green-screen, so I think I have a pretty good idea of how the movie was made.

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Sluggo said:


Is it a real cut sub-plot or is it something that exists more in the mind of the fans?  I honestly don't know, I haven't bothered to research the script or read any of the 'making of' books.  I have looked extensively at a picture of a green-screen, so I think I have a pretty good idea of how the movie was made.


http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/649/robescreen3.jpg



http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7405/cooly.gif

http://twister111.tumblr.com
Previous Signature preservation link

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Interesting, I'm gonna have to look that up.

 

Back on topic, sort of, these alternate plots also involve Leia and Luke not being related.  So should Luke have his own love interest introduced in ESB or ROTJ?  Does he need one?

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Gaffer Tape said:

Well, that's one of those subplots that was *mostly* cut out of the finished film

Yep, I remember hearing about that subplot among others, including how the Emperor was supposed to be Anakin's father in the sense that he was the one to influence the midichlorians to create Anakin. It seems that ROTS was originally supposed to be a more intricate (though not necessarily better) story until Lucas decided to cut out things like the start of the Rebellion and leave in that long fight between Yoda and Palpatine.

Sluggo said:

 So should Luke have his own love interest introduced in ESB or ROTJ?  Does he need one?

Though I hate the Jedi becoming creepy priest like figures in the prequel trilogy, I think that Luke doesn't really need a love interest. There probably should have been more emphasis on the love triangle angle in ESB; for example, the scene between Luke and Leia on Hoth in the hallway where they kiss should have been kept in. However, I don't think a new character needed to be introduced in Episode VI just to be a love interest for Luke. It would have felt too on the spot and weird.

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I think it would be intresting if Vader did indeed kill Luke's father

Then Jedi really would have been about Revenge rather than redemption of the father.

It would fit the classic kung fu, judo or samurai stereotype of the student avenging the master, that on top of an adversary who killed the heroes father.

It would also have been about restoring honor to the  jedi  school by bringing Vader a fallen Jedi who misuses his training to justice.

Lucas instead decided to go with a more traditional mythological idea of the villain being the father, also very Freudian or Jungian, but certainly absorbed by Joseph Campbell.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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The Aluminum Falcon said:

Leia would ... no longer become a slave girl.

 FAIL.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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If Kenobi had killed Luke's father (let's say because he was turning to the Dark Side like Vader) then maybe Luke would have felt more conflicted about sides--Vader would have been a stronger character(he could have still been a stronger character in ROTJ if he was competing for Luke with the Emperor).

Luke didnt really have much reason to be tempted by the Dark Side in ROTJ. The sister temptation comment by Vader was rather late in the game--it worked but not very suspenseful. The love triangle would have been stronger perhaps.

 

It would have been even more shocking if Vader and said "No, you killed your father."

Really should have checked all those detention cells on the Death Star before blowing it up.

;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bantha Foodoo said:

 

It would have been even more shocking if Vader and said "No, you killed your father."

Wow!  That would have been a plot twist.  

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Bantha Foodoo said:

It would have been even more shocking if Vader and said "No, you killed your father."

Mind-blowing. However, yes, I've always wondered who the rebels may have inadvertently blown up that was on their side. In fact, I think there was a Robot Chicken sketch about that... That would suck though and I could understand why Luke would proceed to jump off his pole.

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The Aluminum Falcon said:

I could understand why Luke would proceed to jump off his pole.

That's what she said...?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.