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Where do I go from here as a SW fan? — Page 5

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
According to Lucas, he had time and money to do 3 squib setups for that shot. Each one went off with bad timing. He said in one shot Greedo shot way before Han, in another Han shot way before greedo, and in the one they used, they both went off at about the same time, but you couldn't really tell that. He didn't have time or money to do more setups, so he decided to live with that and try to make it clear through the dialogue that "the idea" was to kill Han.

I was not aware of that. However, I still don't think the scene should have been changed (twice I believe, 97 and 04) and the dialogue seems to work perfectly.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Didn't Tolkein rewrite his works for future editions? Did he also re-publish his previous works along side his new editions each time?


My understanding is that Tolkien continually changed Lord of the Rings until it was published and then made no further edits. He made one change to either the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings (can't remember which) which changed the riddle to match in both stories. Other than that one change, which didn't really change anything about any of the characters anyway, nothing else was ever changed. He did not go back and continually re-edit and re-publish the stories once they were released.

The difference between the two is that Lucas doesn't ever seem to be happy with the changes he's made. Luke's scream in ESB is a perfect example. First it's not there, then it is, then it's gone again. Han/Greedo is another example. I'm sure there are more. If Lucas would make up his mind and release his real "definitive vision" version, along with the OOT, there probably wouldn't be any fan outrage.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Are you asking why he would release still yet "unfinished" versions in 2004? In that case the reason according to him is that his advisors were telling him that if he waited until he was "ready" there might not be a DVD market to release to anyway. I think that, combined with the daily request from fans to at least release what he has even if it isn't "finished" caused him to reconsider waiting until he was done.


Ah yes, his "advisors" told him there might not be a DVD market to release to. Of course, he uses that to pull the "piracy" trump card. I think what his advisors really meant was that HD was coming but with a format war. Either release on DVD now or wait a few more years for the format war to die down. Honestly, nothing pissed me off more when I read the interview where he said he decided to release it on DVD due to "piracy". Bootleg DVDs were being sold on eBay for years before this and he expects fans to believe that he's suddenly doing it because of that? If that were really the case, I would've expected to see official DVDs released right after TPM came out or even sooner. The DVD market isn't going away anytime soon and I'm sure Lucas' "advisors" know that. They wanted SW on DVD so they could rerelease it again in HD once the format war is over.

I know he backed Divx for the longest time, as did Spielberg, but once the format was dead, he should've just gone ahead with a DVD release.
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That Greedo explanation is bullshit. The script says that Han fires first. Then its filmed so that Han fires first. Then its edited that Han fires first. Theres never any ambiguity about it. The only thing about it was a stylistic suspense device--you see a flash of a lazer and a burst of an explosion and its cut so fast that it becomes impressionistic--then the smoke clears and Greedo is dead and Han is the last man standing. Thats how the script describes it and you can even see in the finished film that thats the way its clearly edited, and it is specifically structured that way because thats a western genre cliche that Lucas was trying to evoke. Even Gary Kurtz has recently said something to the effect of "Lucas' explanation on its filming doesn't make sense because the scene was designed and filmed with Han firing first and it would have been very easy to film it with Greedo firing first if thats what he wanted." It also would have been even easier to "fudge it editorially" as Lucas has put it. But theres only one laser blast, one laser sound, and a very clear sequence of shots showing Han blowing him away.
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Damn, this thread exploded, that was quite a read.

My post is in regards to the coversation a few pages back.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicI thought he permanantly altered them to make the SE.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

He chose to update the films to make them more like he was hoping they had turned out, and in the process, he permanantly altered the negative. Now the only negative he has is the special edition.



What. Are we going in circles? I thought that it was established and agreed upon in this thread http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=6537&STARTPAGE=17 that there are non SE or unaltered prints of the OOT. This was only discussed in September, my memory is suspect at times but not that bad.

JediRandy, I’ve had no previous interaction with you, so sorry because I’m sure you’ve been asked this before, are/were you in support of the OOT getting a release on dvd?


Originally posted by: Vigo


If you don't like it, tough titties.... it isn't yours.

You are right. The 2004SE DVD´s aren´t mine. And for getting hard nipples, I need something stronger.


Holy crap, that gave me the chuckles.

Originally posted by: Vigo

Again, I say that the OOT release was just a marketing gag to sell the unsold SE discs, not to test market the demand for it.


Is this the case? I’m not questioning you, but I was unaware of this. I know the ‘new’ ’05 set didn’t sell well because everyone who wanted it bought it in ’04, but are you saying they salvaged the discs from these sets, repacked them and popped in the OOT and reshipped them to retailers? Does this happen, what a crappy business practice if it does?

Correct me if I’m wrong but there is another officially Star Wars con next year, celebrating the 30th anniversary, isn’t there?

I’d dearly love it for George to address the crowd. I’d be very interested to hear what he has to say to the fans that have followed SW for 30 years, and to hear what he has to say about the only movie that has been around for 30 years, not the SW film that has been around only since ’04.

I’d also love for George to do a Q & A but maybe not for the con. Maybe it would be better suited with journalists as part of promotion for the 30th anniversary to save us from the fanboy questions *speaking with a lisp* “What are the technical capabilities of the Star Destroyer Hyperdrive Engines”

From articles we’ve all read through out recent years there are obviously journalists with influence out there who love the OOT and question the revisions, I’d love them to question George over the constant updating and the many dvd releases, since that will be the big sell next year.

It does make me quite sad that what Lucasfilm started out as, a movie making house independent of the hollywood studios, now employs the practices of those studios to serve the bottom line. Hell, I’m all for George making money and don’t want to see his company go under, but the company is not what it once was.

I’m no LOTR fan. I saw them all once in the cinema and enjoyed them all for the most part, but if I was a fan the multitude of dvd releases would be very annoying. At least I’d be able to pick and choose what I want and buy them, but at the end of the day I could distinguish Peter Jackson from the studio and I wouldn’t be annoyed at Peter Jackson for constant releasing of the dvd’s. It’s not really his decision. The studio that owns the rights are the ones putting out the dvds, they know what their fan base is and how much they can milk them for it. Why is Lucasfilm doing the same thing, when Lucasfilm was established initially to be different from the studio model?


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicI don't deny the business side of Lucas, I just think that his idea of good business is to make the best product he can.

I realise the non Anamorphic release isn't the best he could have done. To him the SE version was the best he could do.

Obviously not everyone thinks the new changes were for the better, and legitimately prefer the original versions. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I do hope that all SW fans can enjoy as much or as little of the saga as they want to, in the format they prefer.

I just also understand where Lucas is coming from.

I don't think it's about disrespecting the people who don't agree with him as much as he is respecting his own vision for it with a determined passion.

Nobody could talk him out of making SW in the first place, and a lot of people thought he was crazy to do it in the first place. Why would he suddenly come to the conclusion that his detractors are right now? I think it is a bit selfish to not give a crap about the people who prefer the originals, but I honesty don't see many of those people giving a crap about what he wants either.

I know some of you have no problem with his changes as long as the original is provided along side of it, but by and large there is a lot of crap being flung in Lucas general direction over all of this.

While I can relate to the hard feelings over his suppression of the O-OT and now his lackluster presentation of the O-OT, I think that there is a lot of disrespect given to him beyond that, putting down his artistic vision to the point where you might get the idea that SW was great despite Lucas.

I'm not pointing fingers here, but surely you have to admit there have been a lot of insults sent his way.

The worst he did was not produce the versions everyone wanted to have on DVD. You don't see him putting down all the ways we might have done it differently. He doesn't say that the people who disagree with him are not artistically competant. The way I see it, he is stubborn about his vision, but gracious about the diversity of opinions out there.


I like this post for the most part. I think you nailed it on the part were you said “some of you have no problem with his changes as long as the original is provided along side of it”

If we got the OOT is a dvd release equal to the others, it would make 99% of the fans happy. Lucas could keep on doing what he wants and if we don’t like the prequels we can ignore them too. It’s really quite simple.

Insults are insults, I don’t want to or need to explain them. You can defend Lucas against them if you want to, that’s your prerogative, but at the end of the day it’s all idle internet chatter, I don’t think it really matters nor is it really hurting anyone apart from the Lucas fans who take it to heart.

But by you saying we don’t care what Lucas wants (no we don’t care, release the kickass OOT and he can do whatever he wants, we won’t care any longer) so why should he care what we want. That’s not fair. You’re almost implying Lucas can spite us with withholding the release because we are unsympathetic to his wishes. Like I’ve said before, two wrongs don’t make a right.

Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen

Interestingly, I was at a screening of Star Trek Wrath of Kahn last night that featured a Q&A with the writer/director Nicolas Meyer. He said that films were like a message in a bottle ... and that despite any legal claims to the contrary, a film no longer belongs to its creator in any real or moral sense once it's put out there to the public. I gave him a hearty dose of applause for his admission, as a filmmaker, that "ownership" of art is impossible and illusory once it becomes part of the public sphere.

.


That’s pretty cool. A few musicians I like say that when they make a record it’s like a photograph of that time period or a snap shot in time. When they go out on the road things evolve and songs change a bit here and there. But they don’t denounce the record they made 2 or 10 years earlier. I’m not really trying to making a point, I think it’s just a good analogy.

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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I don't think Lucas spites the people who don't like how he is making his own movies, he just doesn't care about them -at all-.

Any way you slice it, those of us who enjoyed the originals already got what we paid for. I don't see any moral obligation for Lucas to go out of his way to please his detractors who weren't impressed with the way he's further tweaked the saga.

If you guys think that everything you say on the internet is just BS not to be taken seriously, then it won't be taken seriously.

I know what the script says about Han shooting first, but I would defer to Lucas' own account of what happened, because with the way scripts are revised on the fly, it's entirely possible that Lucas felt like making Greedo shoot first after the script was written before they filmed, and it's even possible that the script was revised after the fact to reflect the plan they had after they realized their squib setups didn't go as well as they would have liked.

You can still think it's BS, and I know a lot of people prefer to see Lucas as some kind of pathological liar, but I have yet to see that proven myself.

Oh yeah and about there being prints, there are absolutley prints of the original saga. From what I understand they are all in need of serious cleanup. What I was talking about above was the fact that the original negatives for the classic trilogy were permanantly altered in the creation of the SE verion. So any new transfer they make of the originals has to come from something other than the negative, such as a print. Lucas eneded up using the laserdisc master because that was on hand and had already been signifigantly cleaned up.
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Originally posted by: see you auntie
I’m no LOTR fan. I saw them all once in the cinema and enjoyed them all for the most part, but if I was a fan the multitude of dvd releases would be very annoying. At least I’d be able to pick and choose what I want and buy them, but at the end of the day I could distinguish Peter Jackson from the studio and I wouldn’t be annoyed at Peter Jackson for constant releasing of the dvd’s. It’s not really his decision. The studio that owns the rights are the ones putting out the dvds, they know what their fan base is and how much they can milk them for it. Why is Lucasfilm doing the same thing, when Lucasfilm was established initially to be different from the studio model?


Actually, it was PJ's decision. The theatrical versions are the movies he wanted to make. The EEs are the versions the fans wanted and he created them specifically for that group. Even during the ROTK commentary he says that if he could make all 3 over again and release them all at the same time, he'd do things differently since there would be no gaps between seeing the movies. The only release that might not have been PJ's idea is the latest box set.

You're also missing something crucial about the LOTR DVDs. Each version that has been released has had new material. Now, aside from the latest release, the initial releases were totally different and meant to please both kinds of fans. First they released the theatrical versions with commentaries and other extras. Then they released the Extended Editions. Call them Special Editions if you like Those had even more commentaries and making ofs and had new scenes added back into the movie. Some stuff was completely reedited so that the reinserted scenes would make more sense as well. I bought both because I wanted to be able to watch either one at any time (though I mostly watch the EEs). It wasn't about milking the fans. When the theatrical version came out, you couldn't go to any website dedicated to LOTR without finding out about both. They clearly stated to everyone that they were releasing the theatrical version and then the EEs later (I think 6 months later). Everyone knew this and accepted it. Some waited, some didn't.

I don't know much about the latest release they've done. All I do know is that it's a boxed set with all 3 movies and some new material. They put the theatrical and EE versions on the same disc and then added some new material. For most LOTR fans, it's probably not worth picking up. For someone who doesn't have either version yet, it's probably worthwhile since they'll get both of each movie in one box.

So you see, Lucas could follow the footsteps of Peter Jackson and release the OOT in remastered DVD quality alongside the 04 DVD. Some fans would buy both, some fans would only by the OOT. Assuming he only released two versions and not a new version each year as his mind changed, I think every fan would be perfectly happy with that.
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Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I know what the script says about Han shooting first, but I would defer to Lucas' own account of what happened, because with the way scripts are revised on the fly, it's entirely possible that Lucas felt like making Greedo shoot first after the script was written before they filmed, and it's even possible that the script was revised after the fact to reflect the plan they had after they realized their squib setups didn't go as well as they would have liked.


Yes Go-Mer, and it's entirely possible that the Sun could blow up before I finish this post. It isn't likely, but it's possible. Lucas has said so many different things over the years that people really don't know what to believe, so they defer to what's written on paper and can't be changed. How does the novel describe the shootout? Anyone have a first printing they can compare against? We've got Lucas saying one thing, the script saying another, and Gary Kurtz agreeing with the script. Does that make Mr. Kurtz the liar? I'm inclined to believe the script and Mr. Kurtz since there wasn't really any mention of it being different anywhere until the 97 SEs came out. You'd think that with the plethora of making of books that were released between the time the movie came out and the 97 SEs, somewhere along the line they would have mentioned that it was originally supposed to go one way, but due to time and money constraints, they were forced to do it the other way. Why wait until the 04 DVD release to say something about it (I'm assuming that's where you heard it Go-Mer)? Unless of course Lucas is again trying to rewrite history and claim that it was suppose to be done this way originally. It just took him a few years to develop the proper story that fans would believe.

I feel sorry for you Go-Mer. I have a good friend that's the same way. When the 04 DVDs came out with the messed up sound, he bought right into the LFL line of "it's a creative decision". I asked him "then why are R2 discs different". He had no answer other than "it's a deliberate creative decision". Oh well.

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Yeah there are a lot of people who say different things, but when it comes to what Lucas was thinking in his own head, I will take his word for it.

To me what Lucas says makes more sense, because all Kurtz says is he doesn't understand why they wouldn't have tried more takes if that was really what Lucas wanted. It's also important to note that the reason Lucas and him had a falling out was because in Lucas' words "he wouldn't say no to anything." They went their separate ways becuase the budget blew out of control on Kurtz's watch.

So it doesn't suprise me when I hear Lucas saying he cut his losses after 3 takes, and for Kurtz to wonder why he didn't just keep trying until he got the shot he wanted.

To me Kurtz's account only bolsters Lucas' claim.
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Interestingly, I was at a screening of Star Trek Wrath of Kahn last night that featured a Q&A with the writer/director Nicolas Meyer. He said that films were like a message in a bottle ... and that despite any legal claims to the contrary, a film no longer belongs to its creator in any real or moral sense once it's put out there to the public. I gave him a hearty dose of applause for his admission, as a filmmaker, that "ownership" of art is impossible and illusory once it becomes part of the public sphere.

I know I've said that I was through with Gomer and SW threads like this, but I was bored at work and read through this. Being such a big Nick Meyer fan, I just have to chime in on this. Meyer is one the most UNDERRATED filmmakers of all time. Everything he's made is AWESOME. The Day After...AWESOME!!! His Trek films are the best in the whole series. He directed 2 and 6. 2 is regarded by pretty much every Trekkie as the best. 6 is darker and a little more serious, but still awesome all around. And Meyer helped write Trek 4 (the one with the whales) which is the most popular Trek film. He may not have a large body of work (like Lucas), but what he has made counts for a lot. In interviews, Meyer is just awesome. He's a guy who obviously takes his craft VERY seriously.

So when he says all this about a film no longer belonging to its creator and that ownership is illusory, I APPLAUD him too. The man is 100% right. Period. Lucas doesn't "own" SW anymore. He lost a certain amount of control over it when he released it into the public consciousness back in 1977. Yes, he does own the sole right to make money off of it and do whatever he wants with the intellectual property, but that doesn't negate that it now belongs to everyone. I believe Lucas MUST acknowledge and respect that. By not doing it, he has effectively turned his back on his fans. Gomer posts here that Lucas respects his fans. No sir, he DOES NOT. Refusing to release the versions that an entire generation has grown up with and that made Lucas rich is not repecting his fans. It is disrespectful because he is denying fans something that is a part of their lives. He's taking away something that means something to someone else because he doesn't feel it's appropriate anymore. That is WRONG ON EVERY LEVEL.

Now he has somewhat caved by releasing the OOT last September, but I don't think that release was spurred on by out petition or by some high artistic realization that the originals should be respected. Lucas released them to make a quick buck. And he released a shitty product at that. That's just more disrepect.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Yeah there are a lot of people who say different things, but when it comes to what Lucas was thinking in his own head, I will take his word for it.

Even when it seems to change so much? His "word" will change with every new edition of the saga and you'll go right along with it?


To me what Lucas says makes more sense, because all Kurtz says is he doesn't understand why they wouldn't have tried more takes if that was really what Lucas wanted. It's also important to note that the reason Lucas and him had a falling out was because in Lucas' words "he wouldn't say no to anything." They went their separate ways becuase the budget blew out of control on Kurtz's watch.


One doesn't have anything to do with the other. The Greedo thing took place before SW became popular, so Kurtz "not saying no to anything" doesn't apply here. If Lucas wanted the scene a certain way, then he could have taken more than 3 takes to get it. Hell, some scenes in movies get 10, 15, 20 takes. Why was this one not worth anymore? And incidentally, I agree with the earlier quote that hundreds of westerns have been made before SW. Lucas couldn't cop a scene from one of them to get pointers. Bullshit, man. Han shot first from the start. Lucas pussed out with the SEs.


So it doesn't suprise me when I hear Lucas saying he cut his losses after 3 takes, and for Kurtz to wonder why he didn't just keep trying until he got the shot he wanted.

To me Kurtz's account only bolsters Lucas' claim.


That is so weak, Gomer. I expect better arguments from you...

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Heheh, per Nick Meyer ... it would take at least 20 takes to get Shatner to stop hamming it up and give his best performances. Good directors do whatever it takes, no matter how many takes.


(Meyer's other directorial effort was Time After Time, another good flick ... yes, he has no dogs in his limited oeuvre ... but I think 3 out of 3 is a far better record than 3 out of 6.)


BTW, Nick Meyer is a very witty, intelligent and downright funny guy - as well as an obviously talented director and writer. I had no idea, till the other night, that he had written much of Star Trek 4 ... which was a time travel movie set in San Francisco ... enabling him to include a bunch of unused stuff from his earlier Time After Time, a time travel movie set in San Francisco. Heheh.
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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Heheh, per Nick Meyer ... it would take at least 20 takes to get Shatner to stop hamming it up and give his best performances. Good directors do whatever it takes, no matter how many takes.

Yeah.....we're talking about the Shat here........if you want a ham dinner, see him.


I had no idea, till the other night, that he had written much of Star Trek 4 ... which was a time travel movie set in San Francisco ... enabling him to include a bunch of unused stuff from his earlier Time After Time, a time travel movie set in San Francisco. Heheh.


He wrote everything in Trek 4 from when Kirk and crew went back in time up till when they returned their own time, I believe. Phenomenally great stuff......"double dumb ass on you!!!" LOL!!!
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I barely trust myself to remember something I did or did not do 10 or 15 years ago, I have no reason to trust Lucas' memory of something that happened more than 20 years ago. There's a reason things get written down. It's so we have a record of how something was done or why it was done a certain way. Find one script or novel, from before 1983, that says Greedo was suppose to shoot first and I might believe you.

Until then, I think Lucas is full of it. We won't be able to convince each other otherwise. There's a lot more evidence that it was shot as intended though. The only evidence that we have to the contrary is Lucas' memory (the more time goes by, the weaker the memory gets) and some conjecture.
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Good point there.

So Go-Mer ... if perhaps you are over the age of 20, tell me some detail of something mundane that happened to you 20 years ago. Be honest, if only with yourself, about how vivid your own 20-year-old memories are.
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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Good point there.

So Go-Mer ... if perhaps you are over the age of 20, tell me some detail of something mundane that happened to you 20 years ago. Be honest, if only with yourself, about how vivid your own 20-year-old memories are.


I can't remember 1986 at all. I remember what grade I was in, where I lived, what I did during the summer and what school I went to. That's about it....

But Lucas is God in Gomer's world....so Lucas must remember everything.

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Originally posted by: zombie84
That Greedo explanation is bullshit. The script says that Han fires first. Then its filmed so that Han fires first. Then its edited that Han fires first. Theres never any ambiguity about it. The only thing about it was a stylistic suspense device--you see a flash of a lazer and a burst of an explosion and its cut so fast that it becomes impressionistic--then the smoke clears and Greedo is dead and Han is the last man standing. Thats how the script describes it and you can even see in the finished film that thats the way its clearly edited, and it is specifically structured that way because thats a western genre cliche that Lucas was trying to evoke. Even Gary Kurtz has recently said something to the effect of "Lucas' explanation on its filming doesn't make sense because the scene was designed and filmed with Han firing first and it would have been very easy to film it with Greedo firing first if thats what he wanted." It also would have been even easier to "fudge it editorially" as Lucas has put it. But theres only one laser blast, one laser sound, and a very clear sequence of shots showing Han blowing him away.


Sorry, but you're wrong. Han didn't shoot first.

Han shooting first would've required Greedo to shoot second, which he didn't. Greedo didn't shoot at all.

Therefore, Han shot. Period.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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To be fair, I remember highlights from 20 years ago ... longer in fact. I can, for instance, recall a great many things about the Return of the Jedi line-up in 1983. There was some great stuff that happened that week.

I dunno if an unachieved movie shot would be on that same level of memorability. Personally, though, I tend to remember my successes and forget my failures.








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I was 8 when Jedi came out. I vaguely remember parts of the movie. I don't remember the theater we went to. All I really do remember is how cool I thought Luke was for being a Jedi. I'm 31 now (born in November).
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Originally posted by: Cable-X1
So when he says all this about a film no longer belonging to its creator and that ownership is illusory, I APPLAUD him too. The man is 100% right. Period. Lucas doesn't "own" SW anymore. He lost a certain amount of control over it when he released it into the public consciousness back in 1977. Yes, he does own the sole right to make money off of it and do whatever he wants with the intellectual property, but that doesn't negate that it now belongs to everyone. I believe Lucas MUST acknowledge and respect that. By not doing it, he has effectively turned his back on his fans.

I agree with all of you except one thing: Lucas DOES NOT have to acknowledge and respect our wishes. He can do pretty much everything he wants with his works. No matter how much the fans will cry and whine here.


Gomer posts here that Lucas respects his fans. No sir, he DOES NOT. Refusing to release the versions that an entire generation has grown up with and that made Lucas rich is not repecting his fans. It is disrespectful because he is denying fans something that is a part of their lives. He's taking away something that means something to someone else because he doesn't feel it's appropriate anymore. That is WRONG ON EVERY LEVEL.

Calm down, dude. You sound like Star Wars is being a drug, and you are the junky on turkey. In the end, Lucas does what he can, whether you prefer to accept it, or not. Call him a bastard, idiot, whatever you feel, it won´t change anything.


Now he has somewhat caved by releasing the OOT last September, but I don't think that release was spurred on by out petition or by some high artistic realization that the originals should be respected. Lucas released them to make a quick buck. And he released a shitty product at that. That's just more disrepect.


It´s neither respect nor disrespect. It´s marketing. Slap the OOT on disc and bundle it with the unsold SE discs from stock. Nothing more.

Go-Mer is at least in one thing right: there are really vicious people here demonizing Lucas. He neither is a demon, nor an angel. He does, what every corporation in the world does: maximize profits. Nothing more. If you cry at him, cry at the whole capitalistic system, because he is just doing what he is allowed to do. Legally, Star Wars does NOT belong to us, that´s the cruel truth.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Yeah there are a lot of people who say different things, but when it comes to what Lucas was thinking in his own head, I will take his word for it.

Even when it seems to change so much? His "word" will change with every new edition of the saga and you'll go right along with it?


You both are two extremes: Go-Mer is the Lucas lover, you decided to utterly hate this man for his actions. At least, it´s something to fill out boring evenings, right?



To me what Lucas says makes more sense, because all Kurtz says is he doesn't understand why they wouldn't have tried more takes if that was really what Lucas wanted. It's also important to note that the reason Lucas and him had a falling out was because in Lucas' words "he wouldn't say no to anything." They went their separate ways becuase the budget blew out of control on Kurtz's watch.


One doesn't have anything to do with the other. The Greedo thing took place before SW became popular, so Kurtz "not saying no to anything" doesn't apply here. If Lucas wanted the scene a certain way, then he could have taken more than 3 takes to get it. Hell, some scenes in movies get 10, 15, 20 takes. Why was this one not worth anymore? And incidentally, I agree with the earlier quote that hundreds of westerns have been made before SW. Lucas couldn't cop a scene from one of them to get pointers. Bullshit, man. Han shot first from the start. Lucas pussed out with the SEs.


The problem is the following:

- Kurtz may be lying
- Lucas may be lying

Lucas defendants choose to denounce everything Kurtz says and prefer Lucas opinion, Lucas haters prefer to choose the other way around. The only thing which all sources claim, is that Lucas really suffered making the first Star Wars. A lot of pressure was put on him during the whole production. He could indeed have done things differently than he really would like to have. On the other hand though, this IS what created the film in the first place. This whole atmosphere influenced the creative process, apparently positively. Otherwise, the original movies wouldn´t have had this succes. Lucas and lot of his supporters fail to realize this important point.



So it doesn't suprise me when I hear Lucas saying he cut his losses after 3 takes, and for Kurtz to wonder why he didn't just keep trying until he got the shot he wanted.

To me Kurtz's account only bolsters Lucas' claim.


That is so weak, Gomer. I expect better arguments from you...


Sorry, but so are you. You both are practically the same, only the other way around.
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Originally posted by: Vigo
The only thing which all sources claim, is that Lucas really suffered making the first Star Wars. A lot of pressure was put on him during the whole production. He could indeed have done things differently than he really would like to have. On the other hand though, this IS what created the film in the first place. This whole atmosphere influenced the creative process, apparently positively. Otherwise, the original movies wouldn´t have had this succes. Lucas and lot of his supporters fail to realize this important point.


Very true.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: Vigo
The only thing which all sources claim, is that Lucas really suffered making the first Star Wars. A lot of pressure was put on him during the whole production. He could indeed have done things differently than he really would like to have. On the other hand though, this IS what created the film in the first place. This whole atmosphere influenced the creative process, apparently positively. Otherwise, the original movies wouldn´t have had this succes. Lucas and lot of his supporters fail to realize this important point.


Very true.


Making films is about capturing the "magic moment". That is the moment when you feel that eveything is "right" and fits perfectly together.

Sometimes, this can be achieved by taking lots of time and endless of takes and wait until the "magic" appears. Stanley Kubrick used this kind of work method. He would make actors take 30,40,50(!!!) takes one ONE SCENE(!!!) until he felt that the magic was happening. And he was right.

Sometimes though, these magic moments can happen by accident. Even unnoticed by the director. Let´s be honest with ourselves: Star Wars is a great movie. But its success was completely unexpected. For the studio and for the director. It became a culture "phenomenom". It achieved what other movies didn´t achieve where the production went smooth and uncomplicated. I personally am convinced that Star Wars is one of these movies which were great by "accident", and came at the right time at the right place. Again: this is not bad, it´s good! This is exciting.

Unfortunately, Lucas did not realize this. If we believe him that he actually made the SE in order to correct everything that was wrong, he does not seem to realize that at this moment, he also corrected things which were absolutely right. Not anticipated or planned by him, but THEY WERE right for the movie. Great directors know this. You can hear this in a lots of audio commentaries on DVD, that the success of a movie heavily depends on lucky things happening during the production. George on the other hand, does not seem to know this.

Look at the prequel trilogy. Everything was perfectly planned. The special effects are state of the art, a lot of money has been spent, the actors did their work in front of a green screen or in their motion capture suits. Yet, personally, for my own taste, I don´t see the magic happening on screen. Nevertheless, they were commercially succesful. But on the other hand, there are so much REALLY GREAT films multitudes better than Star Wars that had not nearly this kind of commercial success. So commercial success is not neccessarily an indication of great movies. Other factors like marketing are playing the important roles.

Bottom line: the industry is stupid. Everyone wants to remake or tinker with great movies, those movies which have "their magic", and do not realize it can not be recaptured again, doomed to disappoint the audience who LOVE the original movies. The only movies which should be remade, or tinkered with are the BAD ones!
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Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Cable-X1
So when he says all this about a film no longer belonging to its creator and that ownership is illusory, I APPLAUD him too. The man is 100% right. Period. Lucas doesn't "own" SW anymore. He lost a certain amount of control over it when he released it into the public consciousness back in 1977. Yes, he does own the sole right to make money off of it and do whatever he wants with the intellectual property, but that doesn't negate that it now belongs to everyone. I believe Lucas MUST acknowledge and respect that. By not doing it, he has effectively turned his back on his fans.

I agree with all of you except one thing: Lucas DOES NOT have to acknowledge and respect our wishes. He can do pretty much everything he wants with his works. No matter how much the fans will cry and whine here.


Of course he doesn't have to....but why should that stop him. All he has to do is release them properly so that EVERYONE is happy. It's not quantum physics here. Put out the best product of what will satisfy everyone. That would be a fully remastered OOT with all the works and then his SE if that's what he personally prefers. I think what drives a lot of people bonkers is that the solution is so damn simple. Just release every version, George....that's not asking too much, is it?


Gomer posts here that Lucas respects his fans. No sir, he DOES NOT. Refusing to release the versions that an entire generation has grown up with and that made Lucas rich is not repecting his fans. It is disrespectful because he is denying fans something that is a part of their lives. He's taking away something that means something to someone else because he doesn't feel it's appropriate anymore. That is WRONG ON EVERY LEVEL.

Calm down, dude. You sound like Star Wars is being a drug, and you are the junky on turkey. In the end, Lucas does what he can, whether you prefer to accept it, or not. Call him a bastard, idiot, whatever you feel, it won´t change anything.

Perfectly calm here dude. You better chill, I thinks. A movie that a hell of a lot of people love does not equate a junky. Stop trying to make me sound melodramatic. You know exactly what I mean when I say what Lucas is doing. There's nothing wrong with popping in the OOT and letting your mind wander back to the time you were a kid and saw it the first time. That sort of thing is rather esoteric and I don't expect everyone to get it, but don't make me look like some wacko about it. I don't trivialize you, Vigo. Don't trivialize me. And Lucas is a dumb bastard all around and yeah, I know it won't change anything, but am I supposed to roll over and drink the kool-aid. Don't think so....you're welcome to though.


Now he has somewhat caved by releasing the OOT last September, but I don't think that release was spurred on by out petition or by some high artistic realization that the originals should be respected. Lucas released them to make a quick buck. And he released a shitty product at that. That's just more disrepect.


It´s neither respect nor disrespect. It´s marketing. Slap the OOT on disc and bundle it with the unsold SE discs from stock. Nothing more.

Go-Mer is at least in one thing right: there are really vicious people here demonizing Lucas. He neither is a demon, nor an angel. He does, what every corporation in the world does: maximize profits. Nothing more. If you cry at him, cry at the whole capitalistic system, because he is just doing what he is allowed to do. Legally, Star Wars does NOT belong to us, that´s the cruel truth.

I believe I acknowledged that it's marketing, but I disagree with the disrespect. I think it is. I point to other releases that have original and special editions in them. ET, the future Blade Runner, Dawn Of The Dead...all these DVD releases have multiple, restored and remastered versions. SW was a hell of a lot bigger than all of those combined. In fact, wouldn't it be good marketing to do the same thing and release all the versions all spiffed up in a nice release? That way you maximize your customer base. Everyone will buy it if it has everything, right? So you see...the marketing excuse can be used both ways. Lucas just doens't like the OOT anymore and it gets treated like shit. That's disrespect.

And please spare us that "cry at the capitalist system" shit.....lame.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Yeah there are a lot of people who say different things, but when it comes to what Lucas was thinking in his own head, I will take his word for it.

Even when it seems to change so much? His "word" will change with every new edition of the saga and you'll go right along with it?

You both are two extremes: Go-Mer is the Lucas lover, you decided to utterly hate this man for his actions. At least, it´s something to fill out boring evenings, right?

I do not utterly hate the man. I've said that on many occasion. What I don't hide is utter irritation at how moronic this man is. He has the greatest sci-fi/fantasy film series EVER and he treats it like nothing more than a cash cow. Sure, if there's money to be made, I want him to make it. I'd do the same, but it's just all the bullshit that annoys me. He's going to make MORE changes for the 2007 release? He wants people to buy it again??? Will he ever be finished??? I'm not saying anyone has to buy it, but it's just the principle. He expects that people will fork over money for his OCD-fueled changes time and time again? The man has got some major issues in his noodle....I just feel the need to speak up about it. Don't translate that as hate to try and dismiss me.

It kills time on boring evenings, yeah. You got a problem with that?



To me what Lucas says makes more sense, because all Kurtz says is he doesn't understand why they wouldn't have tried more takes if that was really what Lucas wanted. It's also important to note that the reason Lucas and him had a falling out was because in Lucas' words "he wouldn't say no to anything." They went their separate ways becuase the budget blew out of control on Kurtz's watch.


One doesn't have anything to do with the other. The Greedo thing took place before SW became popular, so Kurtz "not saying no to anything" doesn't apply here. If Lucas wanted the scene a certain way, then he could have taken more than 3 takes to get it. Hell, some scenes in movies get 10, 15, 20 takes. Why was this one not worth anymore? And incidentally, I agree with the earlier quote that hundreds of westerns have been made before SW. Lucas couldn't cop a scene from one of them to get pointers. Bullshit, man. Han shot first from the start. Lucas pussed out with the SEs.


The problem is the following:

- Kurtz may be lying


Don't see any reason why he should. He's out of the big picture anyway. I think he's just defending a film he worked on and has pride in. He doens't like what it's been turned into. I don't blame him and I don't see any reason why he should. He's not getting money for causing any ruckus.

- Lucas may be lying


I don't think Lucas is lying....I think in some warped section of his brain, he believes what he's saying as the truth even if it contradicts what he's said before. Sounds delusional to me...



Lucas defendants choose to denounce everything Kurtz says and prefer Lucas opinion, Lucas haters prefer to choose the other way around. The only thing which all sources claim, is that Lucas really suffered making the first Star Wars. A lot of pressure was put on him during the whole production. He could indeed have done things differently than he really would like to have. On the other hand though, this IS what created the film in the first place. This whole atmosphere influenced the creative process, apparently positively. Otherwise, the original movies wouldn´t have had this succes. Lucas and lot of his supporters fail to realize this important point.



So it doesn't suprise me when I hear Lucas saying he cut his losses after 3 takes, and for Kurtz to wonder why he didn't just keep trying until he got the shot he wanted.

To me Kurtz's account only bolsters Lucas' claim.


That is so weak, Gomer. I expect better arguments from you...


Sorry, but so are you. You both are practically the same, only the other way around.


So am I what? We're polar opposites of the argument....and your point is?

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I honestly don't see Kurtz as lieing. He doesn't say Lucas is lying, he just says he doesn't understand why he wouldn't have just kept at it until he got it right.

His perception that there was no restriction to that is a little off base I think, but I wouldn't accuse him of lying in this instance.

What sounds "delusional" to me are people who think they know more about what Lucas has thought in his own head than he does.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I honestly don't see Kurtz as lieing. He doesn't say Lucas is lying, he just says he doesn't understand why he wouldn't have just kept at it until he got it right.

Exactly...and that begs to question what Lucas had originally intended all along.

His perception that there was no restriction to that is a little off base I think, but I wouldn't accuse him of lying in this instance.

What sounds "delusional" to me are people who think they know more about what Lucas has thought in his own head than he does.


Gomer, we're all pretty bright people here. It doesn't take rocket science to piece together what more than likely happened.

We have Kurtz saying that originally Greedo never shot and Lucas filmed it that way. Kurtz is an eyewitness to that. He was there. Today, Kurtz expresses dismay at Lucas' claims that he never got the shot the way he wanted. Kurtz said Lucas never said anything back during filming, so what are we supposed to think?
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That maybe Lucas didn't tell Kurtz every little thing that was going on in his own head.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Why wouldn't he though? Among other things, the producer's job is to help accomodate the director and get him what he needs in order to help the film get made. There's no reason why Lucas wouldn't have told Kurtz that the scene was problematic. It just doesn't make sense. There are millions of problems like this that happen on movie sets. Lucas is going to keep quiet about this one thing?

Lucas is on pretty thin ice with this one, Gomer...come on, you have to see it...