When did The Empire Strikes Back become more highly regarded than Star Wars? — Page 6

zombie84 said:

Well, weren't you the one discounting the EU in another thread or this? The EU can make up whatever it wants. It's like if you got a job writing a comic, you could put something like that in there. It's cool that those writers have that interpretation of the film. But it's just an interpretation. It doesn't make it so when we are discussing the films. In the films, the only enlisted service ever spoken of is voluntary, and we never see, nor are given reason to believe, there are women and children on board. What purpose would that serve anyway? Another reason I gave up on the EU 12 years ago.

And here i thought the EU was canon. The other user told me that it was canon

somebody on the jedi council forums mentioned women and children on the death stars

SilverWook said:

Before which of your many bans from there was that exactly?

i was falsely accused of trolling from there, the Jedi Council Forums..........

SilverWook said:

Several times, from what I've heard.

from who on the jedi council forums????

Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

High taxes, trade rescritions, no personal rights and freedoms, are what Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker's epic and dramatic redemption is about???? No!!!!!!!

So, millions of people with families that they loved and cared about and who grieved for their losses were horribly burned to death in two fiery explosions

Just so people could have lower taxes????? What the????????

What about all the innocents who died on Alderaan, a civilian target? Did nobody there have families? Those attacks were unprovoked. If Princess Leia stole the plans, shouldn't they have killed her instead of blowing up a whole planet full of people who had nothing to do with the stolen plans and were peaceful, happy citizens of the Empire?

The Death Stars, however, were military targets, controlled and manned by military personnel, all of whom joined the military knowing the risks of being in the military. No peaceful innocent citizens on those at all.

you contradicted urself because u first said that the empire destroyed alderaan with the DS1 (the first death star) to interrogate/spite princess leia organa, however, you also just said that it was destroyed for unprovoked reasons. Well, which is it????

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

High taxes, trade rescritions, no personal rights and freedoms, are what Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker's epic and dramatic redemption is about???? No!!!!!!!

So, millions of people with families that they loved and cared about and who grieved for their losses were horribly burned to death in two fiery explosions

Just so people could have lower taxes????? What the????????

What about all the innocents who died on Alderaan, a civilian target? Did nobody there have families? Those attacks were unprovoked. If Princess Leia stole the plans, shouldn't they have killed her instead of blowing up a whole planet full of people who had nothing to do with the stolen plans and were peaceful, happy citizens of the Empire?

The Death Stars, however, were military targets, controlled and manned by military personnel, all of whom joined the military knowing the risks of being in the military. No peaceful innocent citizens on those at all.

you contradicted urself because u first said that the empire destroyed alderaan with the DS1 (the first death star) to interrogate/spite princess leia organa, however, you also just said that it was destroyed for unprovoked reasons. Well, which is it????

It's kind of both.

You have seen these films haven't you?

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

High taxes, trade rescritions, no personal rights and freedoms, are what Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker's epic and dramatic redemption is about???? No!!!!!!!

So, millions of people with families that they loved and cared about and who grieved for their losses were horribly burned to death in two fiery explosions

Just so people could have lower taxes????? What the????????

What about all the innocents who died on Alderaan, a civilian target? Did nobody there have families? Those attacks were unprovoked. If Princess Leia stole the plans, shouldn't they have killed her instead of blowing up a whole planet full of people who had nothing to do with the stolen plans and were peaceful, happy citizens of the Empire?

The Death Stars, however, were military targets, controlled and manned by military personnel, all of whom joined the military knowing the risks of being in the military. No peaceful innocent citizens on those at all.

you contradicted urself because u first said that the empire destroyed alderaan with the DS1 (the first death star) to interrogate/spite princess leia organa, however, you also just said that it was destroyed for unprovoked reasons. Well, which is it????

It's kind of both.

You have seen these films haven't you?

yes i have

how can it be kinda both at the same time????

Father Skywalker said:

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

High taxes, trade rescritions, no personal rights and freedoms, are what Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker's epic and dramatic redemption is about???? No!!!!!!!

So, millions of people with families that they loved and cared about and who grieved for their losses were horribly burned to death in two fiery explosions

Just so people could have lower taxes????? What the????????

What about all the innocents who died on Alderaan, a civilian target? Did nobody there have families? Those attacks were unprovoked. If Princess Leia stole the plans, shouldn't they have killed her instead of blowing up a whole planet full of people who had nothing to do with the stolen plans and were peaceful, happy citizens of the Empire?

The Death Stars, however, were military targets, controlled and manned by military personnel, all of whom joined the military knowing the risks of being in the military. No peaceful innocent citizens on those at all.

you contradicted urself because u first said that the empire destroyed alderaan with the DS1 (the first death star) to interrogate/spite princess leia organa, however, you also just said that it was destroyed for unprovoked reasons. Well, which is it????

It's kind of both.

You have seen these films haven't you?

yes i have

how can it be kinda both at the same time????

I thought it was all obvious...

He threatens her with the destruction of Alderaan unless she tells him where the rebel base is (interrogation).

He then says, that she's "far too trusting" and proceeds to blow it up anyway (spite) and it was unprovoked because the people of Alderaan hadn't done anything.

It's all in that one scene.

As Tyrphanax said, if they really wanted to they could have just taken it out on Leia, but they chose to make her watch whilst they mercilessly destroyed her home planet.

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

High taxes, trade rescritions, no personal rights and freedoms, are what Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker's epic and dramatic redemption is about???? No!!!!!!!

So, millions of people with families that they loved and cared about and who grieved for their losses were horribly burned to death in two fiery explosions

Just so people could have lower taxes????? What the????????

What about all the innocents who died on Alderaan, a civilian target? Did nobody there have families? Those attacks were unprovoked. If Princess Leia stole the plans, shouldn't they have killed her instead of blowing up a whole planet full of people who had nothing to do with the stolen plans and were peaceful, happy citizens of the Empire?

The Death Stars, however, were military targets, controlled and manned by military personnel, all of whom joined the military knowing the risks of being in the military. No peaceful innocent citizens on those at all.

you contradicted urself because u first said that the empire destroyed alderaan with the DS1 (the first death star) to interrogate/spite princess leia organa, however, you also just said that it was destroyed for unprovoked reasons. Well, which is it????

It's kind of both.

You have seen these films haven't you?

yes i have

how can it be kinda both at the same time????

I thought it was all obvious...

He threatens her with the destruction of Alderaan unless she tells him where the rebel base is (interrogation).

He then says, that she's "far too trusting" and proceeds to blow it up anyway (spite) and it was unprovoked because the people of Alderaan hadn't done anything.

It's all in that one scene.

As Tyrphanax said, if they really wanted to they could have just taken it out on Leia, but they chose to make her watch whilst they mercilessly destroyed her home planet.

no, U R misenterperting this entire situation/thing

 Star Wars Episode 3 the revenge of the Sith-darth sidious becomes emperor palpatine and gets rid of all democracy in the galactic republic.

Star wars episode 4 a new hope-the rebellion alliance exists to fight the bad guys.

in between- the empire does a lot of atrocities and stuff like that, that we are never shown in the films

Also in between-people don't agree with/don't like the empire for political reasons/they are dissenters. 

the bad guys (the empire) uses the death star to destroy alderaan in order to show to the rest of the galaxy not to mess with them. Kinda like how Joseph Stalin is be-all-end all paranoia dictator/tyrant to the fullest extreme of paraoid schizophrneia, that sicko ordered purges to eleiminate all dissenters-even if the dissenters were just innocent ordinary everday unarmed civilians-It was not to spite Prinecss Leia or Jimmy Smits. even if there was no rebellion, aldearan would still have been destroyed. They already believed her, it was not for interrogation.....

 the empire dissolves the senate for god-knows-why

Father Skywalker said:

no, U R misenterperting this entire situation/thing

 Star Wars Episode 3 the revenge of the Sith-darth sidious becomes emperor palpatine and gets rid of all democracy in the galactic republic.

Star wars episode 4 a new hope-the rebellion alliance exists to fight the bad guys.

in between- the empire does a lot of atrocities and stuff like that, that we are never shown in the films

Also in between-people don't agree with/don't like the empire for political reasons/they are dissenters. 

the bad guys (the empire) uses the death star to destroy alderaan in order to show to the rest of the galaxy not to mess with them. Kinda like how Joseph Stalin is be-all-end all paranoia dictator/tyrant to the fullest extreme of paraoid schizophrneia, that sicko ordered purges to eleiminate all dissenters-even if the dissenters were just innocent ordinary everday unarmed civilians-It was not to spite Prinecss Leia or Jimmy Smits. even if there was no rebellion, aldearan would still have been destroyed. They already believed her, it was not for interrogation.....

 the empire dissolves the senate for god-knows-why

 

You're reading these stories two-dimensionally. He does destroy Alderaan as a demonstration of power, yes, but he also does it despite her. Watch the scene, listen to the dialogue, look how they behave. These aren't the flat characters you find in the prequels, where all plot points are spoon fed to the audience. They resent each other, she's trying to be awkward and he's being malicious, whilst also fulfilling his overall agenda. He threatens her planet to get information and does what he was going to do anyway by blowing it up. He still uses it as an interrogation tool first, he uses what she says, and takes pleasure in blowing her planet up in front of her. He later orders scout ships to check Dantooine for a rebel base (off camera, its all in the dialogue) and is shocked that she lied under such duress, at which point he orders her termination.

He dissolves the senate because they have reached a point where they don't need them. That's made painfully obvious by the prequels; Palpatine has been manipulating and orchestrating his way to power all the way through them, Ep4 is where his rule is cemented and there is no more galactic senate because he doesn't want/need them. He is in a position where no politician can oppose him (the Imperial armies/navy follows his orders!), which is why its mentioned that "the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away." There is no way this could be any more obvious, other than having a narrator explain it all to you whilst you watch it.

So far all of your arguments are focusing on one motive for this, one motive for that, but you're failing to spot parts of the context/plot that are established, and failing to realise that characters can and do have more than one motivation at a time. That's what makes them interesting.

I think you need to watch these films again, and really try to think what the motivations for these characters are. Maybe then you'll understand what I'm saying. Until then I have nothing more to add to this debate.

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

no, U R misenterperting this entire situation/thing

 Star Wars Episode 3 the revenge of the Sith-darth sidious becomes emperor palpatine and gets rid of all democracy in the galactic republic.

Star wars episode 4 a new hope-the rebellion alliance exists to fight the bad guys.

in between- the empire does a lot of atrocities and stuff like that, that we are never shown in the films

Also in between-people don't agree with/don't like the empire for political reasons/they are dissenters. 

the bad guys (the empire) uses the death star to destroy alderaan in order to show to the rest of the galaxy not to mess with them. Kinda like how Joseph Stalin is be-all-end all paranoia dictator/tyrant to the fullest extreme of paraoid schizophrneia, that sicko ordered purges to eleiminate all dissenters-even if the dissenters were just innocent ordinary everday unarmed civilians-It was not to spite Prinecss Leia or Jimmy Smits. even if there was no rebellion, aldearan would still have been destroyed. They already believed her, it was not for interrogation.....

 the empire dissolves the senate for god-knows-why

 

You're reading these stories two-dimensionally. He does destroy Alderaan as a demonstration of power, yes, but he also does it despite her. Watch the scene, listen to the dialogue, look how they behave. These aren't the flat characters you find in the prequels, where all plot points are spoon fed to the audience. They resent each other, she's trying to be awkward and he's being malicious, whilst also fulfilling his overall agenda.

He dissolves the senate because they have reached a point where they don't need them. That's made painfully obvious by the prequels; Palpatine has been manipulating and orchestrating his way to power all the way through them, Ep4 is where his rule is cemented and there is no more galactic senate because he doesn't want/need them. He is in a position where no politician can oppose him (the Imperial armies/navy follows his orders!), which is why its mentioned that "the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away." There is no way this could be any more obvious, other than having a narrator explain it all to you whilst you watch it.

So far all of your arguments are focusing on one motive for this, one motive for that, but you're failing to spot parts of the context/plot that are established, and failing to realise that characters can and do have more than one motivation at a time. That's what makes them interesting.

I think you need to watch these films again, and really try to think what the motivations for these characters are. Maybe then you'll understand what I'm saying. Until then I have nothing more to add to this debate.

What Do U mean by 2 dimensionally???

Even if there was no rebellion, Alderaan still would've been destroyed......

So, spiting Princess Leia may have been part of the reason to destroy the planet, but it was the cataylst for it, it was not the "reason" for destroying that planet alderaan.

Now that U brought up the prequels trilogy, i'll use them to prove my point

1-Darth Sidious wants to kill all of the jedi order/knights-order 66, operation knightfall, the great jedi purge......

2-To remove a threat/political enemies

3-to get revenge against the jedi order for defeating the sith in a war that happened 1000 years ago.

Even without the revenge factor, it still would've happened. Even without the political threat to power factor, it still would have happened.

Father Skywalker said:

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

no, U R misenterperting this entire situation/thing

 Star Wars Episode 3 the revenge of the Sith-darth sidious becomes emperor palpatine and gets rid of all democracy in the galactic republic.

Star wars episode 4 a new hope-the rebellion alliance exists to fight the bad guys.

in between- the empire does a lot of atrocities and stuff like that, that we are never shown in the films

Also in between-people don't agree with/don't like the empire for political reasons/they are dissenters. 

the bad guys (the empire) uses the death star to destroy alderaan in order to show to the rest of the galaxy not to mess with them. Kinda like how Joseph Stalin is be-all-end all paranoia dictator/tyrant to the fullest extreme of paraoid schizophrneia, that sicko ordered purges to eleiminate all dissenters-even if the dissenters were just innocent ordinary everday unarmed civilians-It was not to spite Prinecss Leia or Jimmy Smits. even if there was no rebellion, aldearan would still have been destroyed. They already believed her, it was not for interrogation.....

 the empire dissolves the senate for god-knows-why

 

You're reading these stories two-dimensionally. He does destroy Alderaan as a demonstration of power, yes, but he also does it despite her. Watch the scene, listen to the dialogue, look how they behave. These aren't the flat characters you find in the prequels, where all plot points are spoon fed to the audience. They resent each other, she's trying to be awkward and he's being malicious, whilst also fulfilling his overall agenda.

He dissolves the senate because they have reached a point where they don't need them. That's made painfully obvious by the prequels; Palpatine has been manipulating and orchestrating his way to power all the way through them, Ep4 is where his rule is cemented and there is no more galactic senate because he doesn't want/need them. He is in a position where no politician can oppose him (the Imperial armies/navy follows his orders!), which is why its mentioned that "the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away." There is no way this could be any more obvious, other than having a narrator explain it all to you whilst you watch it.

So far all of your arguments are focusing on one motive for this, one motive for that, but you're failing to spot parts of the context/plot that are established, and failing to realise that characters can and do have more than one motivation at a time. That's what makes them interesting.

I think you need to watch these films again, and really try to think what the motivations for these characters are. Maybe then you'll understand what I'm saying. Until then I have nothing more to add to this debate.

What Do U mean by 2 dimensionally???

Last question I'm going to answer (only because I don't have to read the script to you to answer it!).

Two dimensional in that all the characters in the prequel with the possible exception of Palpatine, are flat, dull, and boring, have very little chemistry and aren't very believable. Personal opinion, perhaps, but this is a forum where most would probably agree. Most of our focus is on the original trilogy.

Even if there was no rebellion, Alderaan still would've been destroyed......

That you will never know, so don't ignorantly state it as fact. In theory if there is no rebellion there is no need to set an example. Leia wouldn't have been there anyway, which meant they probably wouldn't have gone to Alderaan in the first place, it may have been someone else's planet, if they felt the need to set an example at all. But you don't know that with any certainty, because what happened is in the films.

You have failed to quote EU sources when asked (by others, I have little interest in the EU), you fail to properly understand the point of half the posts here, and you've continually misrepresented or seemingly completely missed what actually happens in the films and presented a single-minded understanding.

Its impossible. I'm going to sleep now.

Tyrphanax said:

CapableMetal said:

Its impossible.

Even for a computer!

what does that even mean????

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

CapableMetal said:

Its impossible.

Even for a computer!

what does that even mean????

It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters.

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

CapableMetal said:

Father Skywalker said:

no, U R misenterperting this entire situation/thing

 Star Wars Episode 3 the revenge of the Sith-darth sidious becomes emperor palpatine and gets rid of all democracy in the galactic republic.

Star wars episode 4 a new hope-the rebellion alliance exists to fight the bad guys.

in between- the empire does a lot of atrocities and stuff like that, that we are never shown in the films

Also in between-people don't agree with/don't like the empire for political reasons/they are dissenters. 

the bad guys (the empire) uses the death star to destroy alderaan in order to show to the rest of the galaxy not to mess with them. Kinda like how Joseph Stalin is be-all-end all paranoia dictator/tyrant to the fullest extreme of paraoid schizophrneia, that sicko ordered purges to eleiminate all dissenters-even if the dissenters were just innocent ordinary everday unarmed civilians-It was not to spite Prinecss Leia or Jimmy Smits. even if there was no rebellion, aldearan would still have been destroyed. They already believed her, it was not for interrogation.....

 the empire dissolves the senate for god-knows-why

 

You're reading these stories two-dimensionally. He does destroy Alderaan as a demonstration of power, yes, but he also does it despite her. Watch the scene, listen to the dialogue, look how they behave. These aren't the flat characters you find in the prequels, where all plot points are spoon fed to the audience. They resent each other, she's trying to be awkward and he's being malicious, whilst also fulfilling his overall agenda.

He dissolves the senate because they have reached a point where they don't need them. That's made painfully obvious by the prequels; Palpatine has been manipulating and orchestrating his way to power all the way through them, Ep4 is where his rule is cemented and there is no more galactic senate because he doesn't want/need them. He is in a position where no politician can oppose him (the Imperial armies/navy follows his orders!), which is why its mentioned that "the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away." There is no way this could be any more obvious, other than having a narrator explain it all to you whilst you watch it.

So far all of your arguments are focusing on one motive for this, one motive for that, but you're failing to spot parts of the context/plot that are established, and failing to realise that characters can and do have more than one motivation at a time. That's what makes them interesting.

I think you need to watch these films again, and really try to think what the motivations for these characters are. Maybe then you'll understand what I'm saying. Until then I have nothing more to add to this debate.

What Do U mean by 2 dimensionally???

 

Last question I'm going to answer (only because I don't have to read the script to you to answer it!).

Two dimensional in that all the characters in the prequel with the possible exception of Palpatine, are flat, dull, and boring, have very little chemistry and aren't very believable. Personal opinion, perhaps, but this is a forum where most would probably agree. Most of our focus is on the original trilogy.

 

Even if there was no rebellion, Alderaan still would've been destroyed......

That you will never know, so don't ignorantly state it as fact. In theory if there is no rebellion there is no need to set an example. Leia wouldn't have been there anyway, which meant they probably wouldn't have gone to Alderaan in the first place, it may have been someone else's planet, if they felt the need to set an example at all. But you don't know that with any certainty, because what happened is in the films.

You have failed to quote EU sources when asked (by others, I have little interest in the EU), you fail to properly understand the point of half the posts here, and you've continually misrepresented or seemingly completely missed what actually happens in the films and presented a single-minded understanding.

Its impossible. I'm going to sleep now.

the easiest thing to do would be to get george here. He could answer all of our speculation, plot hole questions, and hypotheticals. One of my 1000 things to do before you die things is to interview george and ask him all of my, and your, questions.

Umm, Tarkin said, "fear will keep the local star systems in line, fear of this battle station", which was a response to general tagge ( i can't stand that idiot's smoker sounding voice), saying how the emperor will maintain direct control without the beaureacy in the senate, not how they will spite the rebels.

However, i have no idea why the imperial senate on coruscant was dissolved.....

the EU (the expanded universe) explains what life was like in the empire

We only see

Tattoine

Bespin/Cloud City

We barely saw anything that went on in life in the empire, the atrocities that the empire commited. in the films it was just always assumed that they did bad evil stuff behind the scenes. It wasn't just the death stars, there must've been other factors involved. The Expanded universe (the eu) explains all of that to us......

SilverWook said:

Mr. Lucas has better things to do than hang around here.

unfortunatley, yes....

LexX said:

Stop trolling, Father Skywalker.

i aint trolling here. Just read my last post (s) and respond to my arguements, if U R that disagreeing with me. Dont resort to the last-resort tactic of calling somebody with a different opinion a troll....