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When did Empire become held in higher regard than Star Wars?

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Empire is obviously the film that's held in the highest regard among movie goers these days, and the evidence clearly lies in movie ranking lists done on several sites on the internet.

 

Some examples:

 

IMDb: Empire is ranked 11th all-time, Star Wars 17th all-time

Rate your music top movies list: Empire is ranked #42 all-time, Star Wars isn't even in the top 100 (it's ranked #101 to be exact).

Everyone's a critic top movies list: Empire is ranked #25 all-time, Star Wars is ranked #34 all-time

 

These are just numerous examples of the fact that Empire is held in higher regard than SW these days.

 

However, I've been told by older fans that wasn't always the case, and they are right.  Back in the day the original Star Wars was ranked #1 all-time on IMDb, where as Empire wasn't even in the top 30!.  I've also looked at various older polls and lists of the SW films being ranked, and Star Wars was generally ranked higher.  My question is, why the change of opinion?  Back in the day SW was considered the crowning achievement of the original trilogy, but these days Empire is king.  Anyone know why the opinions on both films have changed so drastically over the last 10-15 years?

 

 

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I think Empire became more highly regarded in March, when someone was half-way through watching Jedi.

Star Wars didn't really drop in popularity, it's just that Empire went up suddenly...like the Canadian dollar did a while back. ;)

Or maybe KenKraly2007 made it happen?

Star Wars Episode XXX: Erica Strikes Back

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I think Empire became more popular in the Star Wars resurgence of the 90s, as the all-grown-up original fans critically re-evaluated the trilogy. I think back to Dante's comparison of Empire and Jedi in Clerks, which came smack in the middle of this era: "Empire had the better ending. I mean, Luke gets his hand cut off, finds out Vader's his father, Han gets frozen and taken away by Boba Fett. That's what life is, a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of Muppets."

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I was 7 when Empire came out, and while it was certainly a cool movie I liked a lot, it had a lot of stuff that was hard for a kid to process.  Down ending, moral ambiguity, not to mention the sexual tension.  Star Wars and Jedi were much more satisfying for kids--the bad guys got beaten and there was a big KABOOM to prove it.

I liked Star Wars better until I had time to grow up and have a better understanding of Empire.  Empire is certainly the least kid-friendly of the movies, and when a large chunk of your fans are kids, that means it's not going to be as popular at first.  But there's no doubt in my mind it's the best of the movies.

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What makes Empire great, in my opinion, are two things... (1) yoda, who is a fantastically-conceived character, and (2) the buildup to Han being frozen in carbonite.  The rest of the movie is, in my opinion, inferior to Star Wars.  It's also a more claustrophobic movie, with everything taking place in cramped settings, whereas SW seems expansive.  I consider SW the much better, much more great-by-general-standards movie.  But Empire is very cool, and hard core fans tend to think that its gloominess makes it more sophisticated.

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The last 40 min or so of Empire are cinematic perfection.

“Grow up. These are my Disney's movies, not yours.”

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I want to point out that I think a small part in the why reason why Empire ranks higher than SW on every single movie site out there is due to more people seeing SW. 

 

An example of what I mean is:

 

Let's say a guy watches the original Star Wars and hates it.  Maybe he rates it a 3/10.  Since he hated the original SW so much, he never bothers watching any of the sequels.  Star Wars rating is hurt by this low score, where as Empire's rating is left untouched because the man doesn't rate it because he never saw it since he hated the original so much.  I'm guilty of this sort of thing.  I hated transformers, so I never bothered with the sequels.

 

I also think the rankings of Empire and SW is a generational thing.  I think older people who saw Star Wars when it came out in 1977 have an attachment to it that they don't to the other films, which is understandable.  That said, a younger man who watches them on DVD doesn't have any attachment to one over the other, so he judges them on strictly the film's merits, and doesn't let nostaglia cloud his judgement.

 

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CatBus said:

I was 7 when Empire came out, and while it was certainly a cool movie I liked a lot, it had a lot of stuff that was hard for a kid to process.  Down ending, moral ambiguity, not to mention the sexual tension.  Star Wars and Jedi were much more satisfying for kids--the bad guys got beaten and there was a big KABOOM to prove it.

I liked Star Wars better until I had time to grow up and have a better understanding of Empire.  Empire is certainly the least kid-friendly of the movies, and when a large chunk of your fans are kids, that means it's not going to be as popular at first.  But there's no doubt in my mind it's the best of the movies.

That's funny. I always preferred Empire as a kid, but if you ask me now, I rate the original ever-so-slightly higher.

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GnomeansGno said:

I also think the rankings of Empire and SW is a generational thing.  I think older people who saw Star Wars when it came out in 1977 have an attachment to it that they don't to the other films, which is understandable.  That said, a younger man who watches them on DVD doesn't have any attachment to one over the other, so he judges them on strictly the film's merits, and doesn't let nostaglia cloud his judgement.

 

I think this is true to a point, as Empire was certainly my least favourite of the bunch when I was a kid, but since then my opinion has changed a lot. As I started to understand more about cinema (and to care about the more mature themes in Empire) it became my favourite.

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I think that when the Star Wars phenomenon became viewed as a great work of art rather than just a great, fun movie with some simple (yet timeless) themes ,it was inevitable that the more serious and mature film in the series would become more highly regarded. This happened around the time of that PBS Joseph Campbell special.

 

 

 

 

 

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Lawrence Kasdan's Screenplay.

Not written by Luca$ also written by the same genius as Raiders the only good indiana jones movie.

 

Didn't Pauline Kael who hated star wars give empire a grudgingly positive review?

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Probably in the 90s for me. Or whenever fans started getting older and feeling weird about still caring about this fantasy. EMPIRE made it more okay because it's OH SO DARK and we were douchey 90s posers.

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Baronlando said:

Probably in the 90s for me. Or whenever fans started getting older and feeling weird about still caring about this fantasy. EMPIRE made it more okay because it's OH SO DARK and we were douchey 90s posers.

Sometimes darker is better, which is why I would take the original Terminator any day over it's sequel.

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TV's Frink said:

 

GnomeansGno said:


Empire is obviously the film that's held in the highest regard among movie goers these days, and the evidence clearly lies in movie ranking lists done on several sites on the internet.
This place isn't quite the same as the rest of the internet.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Empire-Strikes-Back-is-the-best-Star-Wars-movie-Or-is-it/topic/12848/

 

That thread doesn't prove anything.  There are plenty of people out there who prefer SW to Empire, but overall Empire is held in higher regard.  However that wasn't always the case, which to me is baffling.  I don't think I can name another sequel that was once regarded as inferior to it's predecessor that's now widely considered superior to it's predecessor.

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GnomeansGno said:

TV's Frink said:

 

GnomeansGno said:


Empire is obviously the film that's held in the highest regard among movie goers these days, and the evidence clearly lies in movie ranking lists done on several sites on the internet.
This place isn't quite the same as the rest of the internet.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Empire-Strikes-Back-is-the-best-Star-Wars-movie-Or-is-it/topic/12848/

 

That thread doesn't prove anything. 

You're trying to prove something subjective?  Good luck with that.

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TV's Frink said:

GnomeansGno said:

TV's Frink said:

 

GnomeansGno said:


Empire is obviously the film that's held in the highest regard among movie goers these days, and the evidence clearly lies in movie ranking lists done on several sites on the internet.
This place isn't quite the same as the rest of the internet.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Empire-Strikes-Back-is-the-best-Star-Wars-movie-Or-is-it/topic/12848/

 

That thread doesn't prove anything. 

You're trying to prove something subjective?  Good luck with that.

 I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm just curious as to why the perception of both films seems to have changed over the years, or as to why Empire's reputation has vastly grew.

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I really don't think the shift has been that vast. You get a slanted view of things in dorkworld. (Even in 97 the original sold significantly more tickets than Empire)

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I always liked Empire a lot more when I was a kid (though I remember having seen Jedi more times), but I think I mostly loved it because of Hoth.

This signature uses Markdown syntax, which makes it easy to add formatting like italics, bold, and lists:

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Maybe the title of this thread should read, "When did Empire become held in higher regard than Star Wars on the internet?"

Michael Kaminski aka zombie did a great two part article on the reception of the original trilogy 1977-83 which goes into depth of it: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/originaltrilogyreception1.html

Personally, I think many factors play a role other than already mentioned, in the last 15 years, Empire is also seen as the least butchered film in its SE form, it may also affect peoples view but I must say that IMO it was equally fucked up by Luke's scream and destroyed editing.

Another theory of mine is the constant growing anger and hate fans have with Lucas of today, where they often attribute everything that is good about SW or Indiana Jones for that matter to everyone except Lucas, nothing strange really, I hate what a fucking asshole Lucas is today but I will never forget that he is the genius behind THX 1138, American Graffiti, Star Wars, Empire and Raiders, what this man is doing today have nothing to do with his talent of yesterday IMO. The three K's, Irvin Kershner, Lawrence Kasdan, Gary Kurtz were largely responsible for the quality of Empire, but so was Lucas no matter what people think of this man today. But the fact that this was the film he was the least involved with when they shot it, makes this also the most pure to those who think that "the talentless Lucas couldn't ruin this one". It's sad, but this view exist.

The most common view I usually hear is that Empire is the greatest but Star Wars is their favorite, I share that same view, it always was a tie between these two for me growing up but I must admit that I think Empire is the better film now. But Star Wars is still my favorite.

I must also agree with georgec, that the last 40 min or so of Empire are cinematic perfection. Music, editing, performance, cinematography, and special effects are in perfect alignment, I actually believe I have just seen the greatest motion picture ever, every time I see Leia & Luke looking out in the vast space as John Williams beautiful score play. The build up to that cliffhanger is a master stroke, almost too good. Williams is of course a big part of that.

I will however never like that muppet movie where Luke Skywalker has the same hairdo as aunt Beru and where he and Leia are siblings. ;) But in the end, who cares what other people think, as long as you enjoy the movie, others perceptions of it is worthless.

Now, if we all could just enjoy all these films at home in good quality, SE or original, Lucas has made that thing very difficult with all his films.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com