Nope. Just following the bread crumbs...
Where were you in '77?
Can we just get back on topic and discuss the thread title topic, Darth Vader ruling the galaxy, and what kinda dictator/tyrant he would've have been.......
Let's use evidence from the films to support our speculation, too....
SilverWook said:
Nope. Just following the bread crumbs...
What does that even mean???? Please be more specific!!!!!
Your posts betray you...
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
Your posts betray you...
Be more specific, first of all. Second of all, I'm gonna post about the thread title too, not just this off-topic stuff......
Tyrphanax said:
Well, at the time Anakin was becoming Vader, one of the Death Stars was already under construction, and if you take the EU into account, there was already a prototype completed at The Maw, so he would have had access to those right off the bat at very least.
The death star at the end of episode 3 was a prototype.
Also, the Maw death star that U R talking about, that was during episode 4 A New Hope. I looked it up on wookipedia, if he defeated emperor palpatine at the end of episode 3, then the maw death star prototype wouldn't have existed, therefore your arguement that Emperor Darth Vader would've used it is invalid and false, no offense intended here, bro.......
Well, if darth Vader defeated the emperor at the end of episode 5, well, then maybe, maybe not......
So he couldn't have completed the prototype at the end of ROTS himself and used it?
Alright then. I guess Vader would have given everyone in the galaxy a puppy.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
(It hasn’t happened yet)
Tyrphanax said:
So he couldn't have completed the prototype at the end of ROTS himself and used it?
Alright then. I guess Vader would have given everyone in the galaxy a puppy.
I guess he could have. But, remember what he told admiral conan antonio motti???
He wasn't impressed with the first original, or the second, death star for that matter too. He viewed the death star as overkill, cheesy, and totally worthless in comparison to the power of the darkside of the Force..... In a new hope, he didn't seem like such a big fan of it.... That was all the idea of tarkin and the emperor.....
Maybe Emperor Darth Vader would have destroyed Alderaan and despayre with the Force Storms.
However, how many planets would they have destroyed if the rebels alliance didn't defeat them???
If darth vader had never used any of the death stars, the quadrillions of average joes living in his empire would live totally happy and totally unaffected by his rule. the only reason that the empire was so "evil" was because they dissolved the senate and democracy and their/the leader had absolute power, which is not evil in and of itself......
The quadrillions of imperial citizens lived happy lives, only a few billion or so were affected by it, a very tiny and a small percentage of them.......
Please don't ban him yet! I find him extremely hilarious! I haven't cried so hard laughing from reading someone's posts for some time!
darth_ender said:
Please don't ban him yet! I find him extremely hilarious! I haven't cried so hard laughing from reading someone's posts for some time!
I am waiting the users on this thread to actually have a serious discussion on the thread that i had created. Let's speculate about how darth vader would rule the galaxy if he had become the emperor, and please read my posts above and respond to them.....
Father Skywalker said:
I guess he could have. But, remember what he told admiral conan antonio motti???
He wasn't impressed with the first original, or the second, death star for that matter too. He viewed the death star as overkill, cheesy, and totally worthless in comparison to the power of the darkside of the Force..... In a new hope, he didn't seem like such a big fan of it.... That was all the idea of tarkin and the emperor.....
Maybe Emperor Darth Vader would have destroyed Alderaan and despayre with the Force Storms.
However, how many planets would they have destroyed if the rebels alliance didn't defeat them???
Vader was not above using technology as a means to an end; he loved the Executor, and was all about being a pilot. Plus, Vader respected Tarkin, and the Tarkin Doctrine relied heavily upon fear-inspiring technology; overpowering, overwhelming, "over-kill" weapons in order to make people think twice before they opposed the Empire. The Death Star was the keystone of the entire Tarkin Doctrine.
If Tarkin was still part of the Empire under Vader's command, it is likely that things like the Death Star would still exist, whether Vader agreed with them entirely or not, they were still useful instruments.
I am unsure if Vader was ever steeped enough in the Dark Side (as there was always good in him, however deep down it was) to be able to conjure a Force Storm.
Father Skywalker said:
If darth vader had never used any of the death stars, the quadrillions of average joes living in his empire would live totally happy and totally unaffected by his rule. the only reason that the empire was so "evil" was because they dissolved the senate and democracy and their/the leader had absolute power, which is not evil in and of itself......
The quadrillions of imperial citizens lived happy lives, only a few billion or so were affected by it, a very tiny and a small percentage of them.......
I'm pretty sure that the destruction of the Jedi Order and the murder of not only most of the Jedi Council, but also the Jedil Younglings, as well as the Seperatist council (which at the time was suing for peace) counts as evil.
And there's even more evidence that the Empire is evil if you look at EU sources (which you are asking for, because you won't accept that the Empire is just evil as it is in the films): Palpatine murdered many officers and political rivals and other elements from the Republic that might oppose him; he also had the planet of Caamas devastated and turned into a poisoned wasteland as he saw the Caamasi as a threat; he had The Eye of Palpatine created to destroy the Jedi Enclave on Belsavis; he allowed Tarkin to land his ship on top of peaceful protesters on the planet Ghorman; he ordered the enslavement of the planet Kashyyyk and the Wookiees who lived there, as well as the murder of surviving Jedi on the planet; the further murder of surviving Jedi by Darth Vader on Kessel; the manipulation and enslavement of the Noghri; the genocide of the Falleen by Darth Vader in order to contain an outbreak of a biological weapon the Empire had been secretly developing on the planet; not to mention the forceful acquisition of resources from many planets; the subjugation of alien species and the replacement of alien governments with Imperial human governments; and the forceful and violent subjugation of any planet that opposed them in order to make an example of them for other star systems. This is all before the Death Star blew up Alderaan.
There's probably a million other atrocities out there that I haven't read about, but the Empire was certainly not "good" by any stretch of the imagination just because not every citizen wasn't brutally murdered by stormtroopers.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
(It hasn’t happened yet)
Father Skywalker said:
darth_ender said:
Please don't ban him yet! I find him extremely hilarious! I haven't cried so hard laughing from reading someone's posts for some time!
I am waiting the users on this thread to actually have a serious discussion on the thread that i had created. Let's speculate about how darth vader would rule the galaxy if he had become the emperor, and please read my posts above and respond to them.....
No such thing as a serious discussion with you. You talk about how stupid it is to speculate and how we can't consider certain things beyond the movies as appropriate canon in discussion, then you go around speculating something completely idiotic and say, "Is there any proof in the EU that it didn't happen????????????????????????????????????" Serious discussions usually involve being considerate, rational, and a true willingness to listen to others' ideas (a virtue which you seem to expect of others, yet really do little of yourself). If you change your style, you might actually make a few friends around here. But if not, I suspect you'll be banned and I'll probably be the only one missing you, since I get perverse pleasure watching folks make fools of themselves.
Tyrphanax said:
Father Skywalker said:
I guess he could have. But, remember what he told admiral conan antonio motti???
He wasn't impressed with the first original, or the second, death star for that matter too. He viewed the death star as overkill, cheesy, and totally worthless in comparison to the power of the darkside of the Force..... In a new hope, he didn't seem like such a big fan of it.... That was all the idea of tarkin and the emperor.....
Maybe Emperor Darth Vader would have destroyed Alderaan and despayre with the Force Storms.
However, how many planets would they have destroyed if the rebels alliance didn't defeat them???
Vader was not above using technology as a means to an end; he loved the Executor, and was all about being a pilot. Plus, Vader respected Tarkin, and the Tarkin Doctrine relied heavily upon fear-inspiring technology; overpowering, overwhelming, "over-kill" weapons in order to make people think twice before they opposed the Empire. The Death Star was the keystone of the entire Tarkin Doctrine.
If Tarkin was still part of the Empire under Vader's command, it is likely that things like the Death Star would still exist, whether Vader agreed with them entirely or not, they were still useful instruments.
I am unsure if Vader was ever steeped enough in the Dark Side (as there was always good in him, however deep down it was) to be able to conjure a Force Storm.
Father Skywalker said:
If darth vader had never used any of the death stars, the quadrillions of average joes living in his empire would live totally happy and totally unaffected by his rule. the only reason that the empire was so "evil" was because they dissolved the senate and democracy and their/the leader had absolute power, which is not evil in and of itself......
The quadrillions of imperial citizens lived happy lives, only a few billion or so were affected by it, a very tiny and a small percentage of them.......
I'm pretty sure that the destruction of the Jedi Order and the murder of not only most of the Jedi Council, but also the Jedil Younglings, as well as the Seperatist council (which at the time was suing for peace) counts as evil.
And there's even more evidence that the Empire is evil if you look at EU sources (which you are asking for, because you won't accept that the Empire is just evil as it is in the films): Palpatine murdered many officers and political rivals and other elements from the Republic that might oppose him; he also had the planet of Caamas devastated and turned into a poisoned wasteland as he saw the Caamasi as a threat; he had The Eye of Palpatine created to destroy the Jedi Enclave on Belsavis; he allowed Tarkin to land his ship on top of peaceful protesters on the planet Ghorman; he ordered the enslavement of the planet Kashyyyk and the Wookiees who lived there, as well as the murder of surviving Jedi on the planet; the further murder of surviving Jedi by Darth Vader on Kessel; the manipulation and enslavement of the Noghri; the genocide of the Falleen by Darth Vader in order to contain an outbreak of a biological weapon the Empire had been secretly developing on the planet; not to mention the forceful acquisition of resources from many planets; the subjugation of alien species and the replacement of alien governments with Imperial human governments; and the forceful and violent subjugation of any planet that opposed them in order to make an example of them for other star systems. This is all before the Death Star blew up Alderaan.
There's probably a million other atrocities out there that I haven't read about, but the Empire was certainly not "good" by any stretch of the imagination just because not every citizen wasn't brutally murdered by stormtroopers.
The destruction of the Jedi Order, the jedi council and the younglings, order 66, operation knightfall, was undoubtley evil, I can agree with you on that;thousands died in it.
Here's is one thing that I do not understand about all of that. Why did Darth Sidious want to wipe out all of the jedi knights??? For revenge; the title is called Star Wars Episode 3 The Revenge of the Sith... Darth Maul said that at last the Sith lords will have their revenge against the Jedi. But what kinda revenge, for what??? I mean, I always believed that the destruction of the jedi order was to eliminate political rivalries. I don't get that; it kinda contradicts itself now.
Besides, starting a revenge war is totally pointless....
This is why the expanded universe (the EU) has to be canon. It explains all of the stuff that the films leave out. For instance, on Tattoine, Biggs darklighters joined the rebels, and luke skywalker said that he hated the galactic empire, long before Luke ever saw the second death star, and it wasn't because he was "persecuting the Sith", because that was long before he had any idea about the Force (the lightside or the darkside)...
Why don't the movies tell us more though??
If the EU isn't canon, which it hopefully is, then the empire isn't evil. By canon, I mean part of the same storyline as the movies. Which this quote kinda contradicts that....
Also, when George Lucas wrote the Star Wars movies, he never once mentioned what life was like in the empire, as if it wasn't an important plot point
Also, I disagree with you putting galactic alien humanoid species on the same level as humans. By that logic, the U.S government is evil for growing cows on farms, which is "slavery", and people who hunt animals are "evil". I believe in animal rights strongly, animal cruelty is sickening and just plain pure evil, however, I don't believe that farming or hunting is wrong. By criticizing Darth Vader and the galactic sith empire for "specisim", it just doesn't make any sense, in my opinion. I am willing to hear your opposing POV, a diversity of opinions....
The Seperatist Council needed to be slaughtered in order to end the Clone Wars. They were evil people. Darth Vader ended the Clone wars while he was on Mustafar; what else would be the point of what he did to the Seperatist Council???
One last thing. Luke Skywalker "redeeming his father", was more of a spiritual thing, not about stopping him enslaving aliens or destroying planets or anything else like that; which is where the religious spiritual Jedi philosophical mumbo jumbo comes in........
darth_ender said:
Father Skywalker said:
darth_ender said:
Please don't ban him yet! I find him extremely hilarious! I haven't cried so hard laughing from reading someone's posts for some time!
I am waiting the users on this thread to actually have a serious discussion on the thread that i had created. Let's speculate about how darth vader would rule the galaxy if he had become the emperor, and please read my posts above and respond to them.....
No such thing as a serious discussion with you. You talk about how stupid it is to speculate and how we can't consider certain things beyond the movies as appropriate canon in discussion, then you go around speculating something completely idiotic and say, "Is there any proof in the EU that it didn't happen????????????????????????????????????" Serious discussions usually involve being considerate, rational, and a true willingness to listen to others' ideas (a virtue which you seem to expect of others, yet really do little of yourself). If you change your style, you might actually make a few friends around here. But if not, I suspect you'll be banned and I'll probably be the only one missing you, since I get perverse pleasure watching folks make fools of themselves.
My ??????????? is because of my OCD with punctuation thing. I am actually trying to gradually decrease that habit though....
Also, the only one issue that I have with the Expanded Universe (the EU) is that George Lucas seemed to have implied that it is a different storyline than the films, kinda like the Tobey maguire and andrew garfield spiderman films are 2 totally different seperate storylines, or James Bond, different storylines...... A quote from Wookipedia.....
Father Skywalker said:
The destruction of the Jedi Order, the jedi council and the younglings, order 66, operation knightfall, was undoubtley evil, I can agree with you on that;thousands died in it.
Here's is one thing that I do not understand about all of that. Why did Darth Sidious want to wipe out all of the jedi knights??? For revenge; the title is called Star Wars Episode 3 The Revenge of the Sith... Darth Maul said that at last the Sith lords will have their revenge against the Jedi. But what kinda revenge, for what??? I mean, I always believed that the destruction of the jedi order was to eliminate political rivalries. I don't get that; it kinda contradicts itself now.
Besides, starting a revenge war is totally pointless....
Yes, the Empire is evil. I'd say I'm glad you finally get that, but I'm sure later on we'll go over it again.
Palpatine wanted to destroy the Jedi Order because they would never let a Sith Lord control the galaxy if they were around; I was fairly sure the films made that very obvious. The Jedi and the Sith have been locked in an eternal struggle against one another forever; the Jedi want to destroy the Sith, and the Sith want to destroy the Jedi because their orders are diametrically opposed, the Dark Side and the Light Side are polar opposites. I'm not sure how you could have trouble not understanding why they want to destroy one another.
Maul is talking about a more abstract revenge, a revenge for the Sith as an institution, as neither Maul nor Palpatine were alive when the last Sith Empire was destroyed a thousand years before the events of The Phantom Menace. Palpatine doesn't really care about revenge so much as he cares about ruling the galaxy.
Father Skywalker said:
This is why the expanded universe (the EU) has to be canon. It explains all of the stuff that the films leave out. For instance, on Tattoine, Biggs darklighters joined the rebels, and luke skywalker said that he hated the galactic empire, long before Luke ever saw the second death star, and it wasn't because he was "persecuting the Sith", because that was long before he had any idea about the Force (the lightside or the darkside)...
Why don't the movies tell us more though??
If the EU isn't canon, which it hopefully is, then the empire isn't evil. By canon, I mean part of the same storyline as the movies. Which this quote kinda contradicts that....
Also, when George Lucas wrote the Star Wars movies, he never once mentioned what life was like in the empire, as if it wasn't an important plot point
"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions." ?George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337[src]
I knew we'd come back to the Empire being good eventually... sigh. I don't know how or why you keep going back to this point even after I compiled a whole list of all the atrocities that the Empire committed before the Death Star was even completed that have actual, canon sources.
But I digress.
Here is an interesting Wookieepedia about the Star Wars timeline, and canon, showing how it all fits together. No matter how many times you repost that same quote, the fact of the matter is that all Star Wars stories (aside from the Infinities series) fall on the same timeline, unless they are explicitly overwritten by a "higher order" of canon, otherwise they will be made to work alongside one another by someone like Leland Chee, who oversees the canon and makes sure everything works together.
Id est, a book written about what happened during The Clone Wars is canon and fits in the Star Wars timeline as though it were the same as a movie; however, if The Clone Wars TV show wanted to do an episode about the same characters doing different things and it happened at the exact same time, The Clone Wars TV show episode would overwrite the book, and the book would no longer be canon.
By that same token, if Lucas wanted to write a movie about the same characters doing different things than The Clone Wars TV show episode, that movie would be the definitive event, and The Clone Wars TV show episode would be overwritten and no longer be canon.
Those are the simplest terms I can put it in: until something is overwritten by a higher order of canon, it is the definitive canon for that event.
Now, on the subject of why the movies don't tell us more; that's because not every single aspect of everything in the Star Wars universe (or any other movie universe) needs to be described in minute detail for it to have happened. Can you imagine how boring it would be to watch an entire movie about a people going about their normal, boring lives at their office jobs on Coruscant?
Movies have a story to tell, and diluting that story with a lot of other aspects that have nothing to do with the story makes the movie boring and too long. If there was a huge scene in the middle of Star Wars that went on to show how every aspect of every part of everything in the Star Wars universe, the movie would never end and once it got back to the story of Luke, Han, and Leia, nobody would remember what was going on.
Plus the movie would never be released because it would take forever to make, and nobody would be able to pay to make the whole thing.
Father Skywalker said:
Also, I disagree with you putting galactic alien humanoid species on the same level as humans. By that logic, the U.S government is evil for growing cows on farms, which is "slavery", and people who hunt animals are "evil". I believe in animal rights strongly, animal cruelty is sickening and just plain pure evil, however, I don't believe that farming or hunting is wrong. By criticizing Darth Vader and the galactic sith empire for "specisim", it just doesn't make any sense, in my opinion. I am willing to hear your opposing POV, a diversity of opinions....
Uh, what? Cows are not sentient, many aliens (as they appear in Star Wars) are. Aliens (like the Mon Calamari, or Bothans, or Chiss, or Taung, or Wookiees) in Star Wars are equal to humans, they are not animals. I hate to get all up-in-arms about racism towards fictional races, but what you're saying is like saying black people or Mexicans shouldn't have the same rights as white people.
The Galactic Empire is widely known for its xenophobia, as this article states.
Father Skywalker said:
The Seperatist Council needed to be slaughtered in order to end the Clone Wars. They were evil people. Darth Vader ended the Clone wars while he was on Mustafar; what else would be the point of what he did to the Seperatist Council???
At the end of Revenge of the Sith, you should realize that it was not The Separatists who were evil, it was Palpatine's Republic that had become evil. The Separatists just wanted the war to be over at the end of the film, and then they were murdered.
It's very complex, because, yes, initially, it was the Separatists that were evil, when Palpatine was leading them through Count Dooku and General Grevous; but then the roles reverse and the Republic as led by Palpatine becomes the Evil Galactic Empire.
Father Skywalker said:
One last thing. Luke Skywalker "redeeming his father", was more of a spiritual thing, not about stopping him enslaving aliens or destroying planets or anything else like that; which is where the religious spiritual Jedi philosophical mumbo jumbo comes in........
That is partially true, yes, but the goal of the Rebel Alliance was to end the tyrannical, oppressive rule of the Empire through a revolution in order to replace democratic values more in line with the Republic.
But you're getting off-topic again, as usual.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
(It hasn’t happened yet)
Tyrphanax said:
Father Skywalker said:
The destruction of the Jedi Order, the jedi council and the younglings, order 66, operation knightfall, was undoubtley evil, I can agree with you on that;thousands died in it.
Here's is one thing that I do not understand about all of that. Why did Darth Sidious want to wipe out all of the jedi knights??? For revenge; the title is called Star Wars Episode 3 The Revenge of the Sith... Darth Maul said that at last the Sith lords will have their revenge against the Jedi. But what kinda revenge, for what??? I mean, I always believed that the destruction of the jedi order was to eliminate political rivalries. I don't get that; it kinda contradicts itself now.
Besides, starting a revenge war is totally pointless....
Yes, the Empire is evil. I'd say I'm glad you finally get that, but I'm sure later on we'll go over it again.
Palpatine wanted to destroy the Jedi Order because they would never let a Sith Lord control the galaxy if they were around; I was fairly sure the films made that very obvious. The Jedi and the Sith have been locked in an eternal struggle against one another forever; the Jedi want to destroy the Sith, and the Sith want to destroy the Jedi because their orders are diametrically opposed, the Dark Side and the Light Side are polar opposites. I'm not sure how you could have trouble not understanding why they want to destroy one another.
Maul is talking about a more abstract revenge, a revenge for the Sith as an institution, as neither Maul nor Palpatine were alive when the last Sith Empire was destroyed a thousand years before the events of The Phantom Menace. Palpatine doesn't really care about revenge so much as he cares about ruling the galaxy.
Father Skywalker said:
This is why the expanded universe (the EU) has to be canon. It explains all of the stuff that the films leave out. For instance, on Tattoine, Biggs darklighters joined the rebels, and luke skywalker said that he hated the galactic empire, long before Luke ever saw the second death star, and it wasn't because he was "persecuting the Sith", because that was long before he had any idea about the Force (the lightside or the darkside)...
Why don't the movies tell us more though??
If the EU isn't canon, which it hopefully is, then the empire isn't evil. By canon, I mean part of the same storyline as the movies. Which this quote kinda contradicts that....
Also, when George Lucas wrote the Star Wars movies, he never once mentioned what life was like in the empire, as if it wasn't an important plot point
"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions." ?George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337[src] I knew we'd come back to the Empire being good eventually... sigh. I don't know how or why you keep going back to this point even after I compiled a whole list of all the atrocities that the Empire committed before the Death Star was even completed that have actual, canon sources.
But I digress.
Here is an interesting Wookieepedia about the Star Wars timeline, and canon, showing how it all fits together. No matter how many times you repost that same quote, the fact of the matter is that all Star Wars stories (aside from the Infinities series) fall on the same timeline, unless they are explicitly overwritten by a "higher order" of canon, otherwise they will be made to work alongside one another by someone like Leland Chee, who oversees the canon and makes sure everything works together.
Id est, a book written about what happened during The Clone Wars is canon and fits in the Star Wars timeline as though it were the same as a movie; however, if The Clone Wars TV show wanted to do an episode about the same characters doing different things and it happened at the exact same time, The Clone Wars TV show episode would overwrite the book, and the book would no longer be canon.
By that same token, if Lucas wanted to write a movie about the same characters doing different things than The Clone Wars TV show episode, that movie would be the definitive event, and The Clone Wars TV show episode would be overwritten and no longer be canon.
Those are the simplest terms I can put it in: until something is overwritten by a higher order of canon, it is the definitive canon for that event.
Now, on the subject of why the movies don't tell us more; that's because not every single aspect of everything in the Star Wars universe (or any other movie universe) needs to be described in minute detail for it to have happened. Can you imagine how boring it would be to watch an entire movie about a people going about their normal, boring lives at their office jobs on Coruscant?
Movies have a story to tell, and diluting that story with a lot of other aspects that have nothing to do with the story makes the movie boring and too long. If there was a huge scene in the middle of Star Wars that went on to show how every aspect of every part of everything in the Star Wars universe, the movie would never end and once it got back to the story of Luke, Han, and Leia, nobody would remember what was going on.
Plus the movie would never be released because it would take forever to make, and nobody would be able to pay to make the whole thing.
Father Skywalker said:
Also, I disagree with you putting galactic alien humanoid species on the same level as humans. By that logic, the U.S government is evil for growing cows on farms, which is "slavery", and people who hunt animals are "evil". I believe in animal rights strongly, animal cruelty is sickening and just plain pure evil, however, I don't believe that farming or hunting is wrong. By criticizing Darth Vader and the galactic sith empire for "specisim", it just doesn't make any sense, in my opinion. I am willing to hear your opposing POV, a diversity of opinions....
Uh, what? Cows are not sentient, many aliens (as they appear in Star Wars) are. Aliens (like the Mon Calamari, or Bothans, or Chiss, or Taung, or Wookiees) in Star Wars are equal to humans, they are not animals. I hate to get all up-in-arms about racism towards fictional races, but what you're saying is like saying black people or Mexicans shouldn't have the same rights as white people.
The Galactic Empire is widely known for its xenophobia, as this article states.
Father Skywalker said:
The Seperatist Council needed to be slaughtered in order to end the Clone Wars. They were evil people. Darth Vader ended the Clone wars while he was on Mustafar; what else would be the point of what he did to the Seperatist Council???
At the end of Revenge of the Sith, you should realize that it was not The Separatists who were evil, it was Palpatine's Republic that had become evil. The Separatists just wanted the war to be over at the end of the film, and then they were murdered.
It's very complex, because, yes, initially, it was the Separatists that were evil, when Palpatine was leading them through Count Dooku and General Grevous; but then the roles reverse and the Republic as led by Palpatine becomes the Evil Galactic Empire.
Father Skywalker said:
One last thing. Luke Skywalker "redeeming his father", was more of a spiritual thing, not about stopping him enslaving aliens or destroying planets or anything else like that; which is where the religious spiritual Jedi philosophical mumbo jumbo comes in........
That is partially true, yes, but the goal of the Rebel Alliance was to end the tyrannical, oppressive rule of the Empire through a revolution in order to replace democratic values more in line with the Republic.
But you're getting off-topic again, as usual.
Basically, in other words, you just admitted that the Sith Order and the jedi Order are like the Crusades, a bunch of religious groups trying to wipe each other out. Throughout the course of human history, not just the Crusades, but in lots of other times, different religious and ethnic groups mutally hated each other and want to wipe each other out. In that kinda situation, both sides are evil.
Obi-Wan-Kenobi and Yoda wanted Luke skywalker to kill darth vader (and I guess darth sidious too). Yet never once did they mention defeating a tyrannical dictatorship and tyranny. The Jedi have a prophecy of the Chosen One, which basically says that the chosen one will kill all of the Sith lords, which was made long before Palpatine had ever built the first death star. So, basically, if a Sith Lord wanted to go hide in the woods and practice his black/dark magic, DarkSide of the Force powers and not harm anybody else, the jedi would go hunt him/her down and kill him/her.....
Obi wan kenobi and yoda were basically religious genocide-rs, any proof needed??? They wanted the Skywalker twins to kill the Sith, not free enslaved aliens or save planets from the death stars from dictators....
Why the Hell are you pulling the race card in a science fiction/fantasy forum website and accusing me of being racist towards black people and Mexican people??? I aint racist, so stop trying to accuse me of being racist.
I was talking about space aliens in Star Wars, not being on the same level as humans. Dolphins are sentinent too, dolphins are extremley intelligent animals. So are cows, pigs, dogs, cats, parakeets, and all species of birds. So, keeping pets is slavery??? No, but by your logic, yes.....
I don't feel like reposting the same George Lucas quote again, but that quote said that the expanded universe is canon (No doubt about that), but that is a different universe.
For instance, all of the James Bond Movies are Canon (obviously), but the Daniel Craig Skyfall movies and the Sean Connery James Bond movies are different storylines and different universes. The james bond in skyfall is in a totally different universe/storyline than the movies with sean connery.
The only reason that im mentioning that is because the EU atrocities that the empire commited may or may not be part of the same storyline as the films, still canon, but a different universe/storyline and not pertaining to the storyline of the films.
Also, what was the Sith Empire like??? They didn't have the death star, there were supposed evil sith empires even before palpatine was ever born...
Also, what do you mean by this?? Even before the destruction of Alderaan?? Other planets were destroyed by the death star?? If you mean planets that opposed them, then I guess you are talking about rebels, and rebels are commiting treason against the state. I suppose the U.S and 99.9% of world government are evil by that line of reasoning.
What do U mean by "forceful and violent subjugation" of those planets, and define "opposed them". Please give examples of this...
the forceful and violent subjugation of any planet that opposed them in order to make an example of them for other star systems. This is all before the Death Star blew up Alderaan.
Look man. I dunno what else to tell you. I'm coming here with facts from various sources, trying my best to patiently explain everything to you the way it is meant to be interpreted and understood according to the books and movies and various other sources that are all canon, and all a part of the timeline, and you're just not hearing it.
That's cool, if you want to interpret stuff differently than what's intended, then you're perfectly entitled to do so; but I can't explain every single minute detail of the entire Star Wars universe, because a lot of it is just inferred. I can't tell you every planet that the Empire subjugated, all I can tell you is that the books and movies and video games and comics and everything infer that it happened.
If you want to interpret both sides of the Force as evil, that's also just fine. A lot of people have come to interpret that the Jedi Order was very corrupt and bordering on bad by the time of the Great Jedi Purge once the prequels came out and complicated what was before a very simple Light/Dark, Good/Evil, White/Black thing. I can't make you see that the Jedi Order is intended to be the good side and that they fight for justice and that means freeing the enslaved and rescuing the oppressed as well as fighting the evil influence of the Dark Side in all its forms.
If you want to interpret the Empire as good just because they didn't show everything they did that was bad and instead just inferred that they were bad (something which I don't think anyone else in the history of Star Wars has ever questioned), then that's fine; even though it's wrong.
If you want to interpret Moff Jerjerrod or any other person who died in Star Wars as having not died just because Lucas didn't pop up on the screen and say "Yep, he's dead forever!" every time someone croaked, that's fine, too; even though it's wrong.
If you want to interpret aliens being on a lesser plain than Humans in Star Wars, even though Admiral Ackbar outranked General Madine and was therefore his superior, then that's fine; even though it's wrong. Perhaps sentient was not the correct word to use in my last post, since apparently that extends now to animals in many areas; sapient however, is. My point with the comment about race is that, in Star Wars, a Mon Calamari, or a Bothan, or a Zabrak, or a Twi'lek, or a Wookiee, or any other alien species is equal to a human.
Ergo, a Wookiee is to a Human in Star Wars as a black person is to a white person in real life; and the same extends to any other sapient alien in the Star Wars universe.
Dolphins and cows or any other non-human animal are not sapient beings in real life; they do not possess "wisdom" or abstract thought or anything of the sort that makes humans human.
Again, and I know I can't make you understand this, but no matter what that Lucas quote says, there is only one Star Wars universe (except in the case of Infinities and overwritten canon) and all materials are a part of it.
Here is a quote:
"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history—with many off-shoots, variations and tangents—like any other well-developed mythology."
And another:
"We've stuck to a very clear branding strategy for the past decade. This is Star Wars. Individual movies come and go, as do TV shows, video games, books. They all contribute to the lore of Star Wars, but in the end it is one saga and that saga is called Star Wars. We've wanted to send a clear message to our fans that everything we do is part of that overall saga."
And another:
"GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."
And here's one from Lucas himself:
"After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga."
I realise these quotes will not make a lick of difference, but still.
Also, I know a lot of people who feel like the James Bond movies are all part of the same universe and the same continuity, as well.
The last true Sith Empire before the Republic was the one featured in the game Star Wars: The Old Republic, but after that there was The Brotherhood of Darkness, which was a very large Sith cult that was built from parts of the Sith Empire, and was eventually destroyed by the Thought Bomb, along with many Jedi, leaving only Darth Bane and his apprentice as the final Sith; Bane restarted Darth Revan's Rule of Two which would go on from Darth Bane, through many other Sith Lords, and end with Palpatine and Vader, afterwards, Darth Krayt would bring about a Sith Empire more akin to The Brotherhood of Darkness.
But I'm not sure if that matters because you so often flip between the EU being part of the canon and not being part of the canon. Your mind is so made up on all of this stuff that I just can't explain things well enough for it to make any difference, though, so we're at an impasse here; like I said earlier, I'm giving you all the proof anyone should need to see how Star Wars is supposed to be taken, interpreted, and understood, and you're just not hearing any of it, so I don't know how much longer I'm going to try.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
(It hasn’t happened yet)
Lol. Funniest topic ever. Do you actually think that Hayden Christensen's acting in ROTS was "pretty good," or are you just trying to provoke a reaction?
Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!
Akwat Kbrana said:
Lol. Funniest topic ever. Do you actually think that Hayden Christensen's acting in ROTS was "pretty good," or are you just trying to provoke a reaction?
The first one, not the second one......
I think he would have ran the galaxy the way he ran The Executor.
It wouldn't have been a barrel of laughs
J
Tyrphanax said:
Look man. I dunno what else to tell you. I'm coming here with facts from various sources, trying my best to patiently explain everything to you the way it is meant to be interpreted and understood according to the books and movies and various other sources that are all canon, and all a part of the timeline, and you're just not hearing it.
That's cool, if you want to interpret stuff differently than what's intended, then you're perfectly entitled to do so; but I can't explain every single minute detail of the entire Star Wars universe, because a lot of it is just inferred. I can't tell you every planet that the Empire subjugated, all I can tell you is that the books and movies and video games and comics and everything infer that it happened.
If you want to interpret both sides of the Force as evil, that's also just fine. A lot of people have come to interpret that the Jedi Order was very corrupt and bordering on bad by the time of the Great Jedi Purge once the prequels came out and complicated what was before a very simple Light/Dark, Good/Evil, White/Black thing. I can't make you see that the Jedi Order is intended to be the good side and that they fight for justice and that means freeing the enslaved and rescuing the oppressed as well as fighting the evil influence of the Dark Side in all its forms.
If you want to interpret the Empire as good just because they didn't show everything they did that was bad and instead just inferred that they were bad (something which I don't think anyone else in the history of Star Wars has ever questioned), then that's fine; even though it's wrong.
If you want to interpret Moff Jerjerrod or any other person who died in Star Wars as having not died just because Lucas didn't pop up on the screen and say "Yep, he's dead forever!" every time someone croaked, that's fine, too; even though it's wrong.
If you want to interpret aliens being on a lesser plain than Humans in Star Wars, even though Admiral Ackbar outranked General Madine and was therefore his superior, then that's fine; even though it's wrong. Perhaps sentient was not the correct word to use in my last post, since apparently that extends now to animals in many areas; sapient however, is. My point with the comment about race is that, in Star Wars, a Mon Calamari, or a Bothan, or a Zabrak, or a Twi'lek, or a Wookiee, or any other alien species is equal to a human.
Ergo, a Wookiee is to a Human in Star Wars as a black person is to a white person in real life; and the same extends to any other sapient alien in the Star Wars universe.
Dolphins and cows or any other non-human animal are not sapient beings in real life; they do not possess "wisdom" or abstract thought or anything of the sort that makes humans human.
Again, and I know I can't make you understand this, but no matter what that Lucas quote says, there is only one Star Wars universe (except in the case of Infinities and overwritten canon) and all materials are a part of it.
Here is a quote:
"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history—with many off-shoots, variations and tangents—like any other well-developed mythology."
And another:
"We've stuck to a very clear branding strategy for the past decade. This is Star Wars. Individual movies come and go, as do TV shows, video games, books. They all contribute to the lore of Star Wars, but in the end it is one saga and that saga is called Star Wars. We've wanted to send a clear message to our fans that everything we do is part of that overall saga."
And another:
"GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."
And here's one from Lucas himself:
"After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga."
I realise these quotes will not make a lick of difference, but still.
Also, I know a lot of people who feel like the James Bond movies are all part of the same universe and the same continuity, as well.
The last true Sith Empire before the Republic was the one featured in the game Star Wars: The Old Republic, but after that there was The Brotherhood of Darkness, which was a very large Sith cult that was built from parts of the Sith Empire, and was eventually destroyed by the Thought Bomb, along with many Jedi, leaving only Darth Bane and his apprentice as the final Sith; Bane restarted Darth Revan's Rule of Two which would go on from Darth Bane, through many other Sith Lords, and end with Palpatine and Vader, afterwards, Darth Krayt would bring about a Sith Empire more akin to The Brotherhood of Darkness.
But I'm not sure if that matters because you so often flip between the EU being part of the canon and not being part of the canon. Your mind is so made up on all of this stuff that I just can't explain things well enough for it to make any difference, though, so we're at an impasse here; like I said earlier, I'm giving you all the proof anyone should need to see how Star Wars is supposed to be taken, interpreted, and understood, and you're just not hearing any of it, so I don't know how much longer I'm going to try.
The topic of this discussion is Darth Vader's policies if he was the one who ruled the galaxy, and, actually, this entire discussion pertains to that. So, Mace Windu said that "The opression of the Sith will never return", and Palpatine said that, "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace". The Death Stars, or, rather, the ideas of the Death Star, was an idea that palpatine discussed with darth plageius as early as episode 1, according to the EU. The point is, the death star was part of the galactic Sith Empire ruled by Darth Sidious, it was his idea, and the sith didn't always have the death star, they existed for millenia without it, and still gained the reputation as opressive tyrannical dictators......
If Darth Vader became the Emperor, then he most likely would have done the things that the olden-days sith lords did, whatever they did. What "oppresive" things, to quote Mace Windu, did the Sith Empire do. Mace Windu had no idea about the death star, but he did know that the sith empire were tyrannical dictators.
Another thing-very few people in the galaxy believe in the force, therefore, they would not care if they are ruled by a Sith Lord; maybe the Jedi with different philosophical views do care, but the vast majority of everday average joe civilians do not.
As for canon issues, this discussion is very difficult to have with you, no offense, not so much just because we disagree with each other, but mainly , rather, we are using different logic and standards to discuss our opinions, that I don't really understand what U R talking about, and I actually misenterpt what u r saying (and vice versa).
For instance, I'll just forget about the james bond example, I'll instead use the spiderman films example to illustrate my point.
The Tobey Maguire Spiderman films are canon
The andrew garfield amazing spiderman movie series is canon too
The Stars wars 6-film saga is canon, and so is the EU (the expanded universe)
However, the Tobey and Garfield series are not in the same universe. While they both are canon-of that is there no doubt or debate, they are totally different storylines that Don't overalp with each other. For instance, in the andrew garfield spiderman movies reboot, he had a girlfriend, gwen stacy, while he was still in high school, and he fought the lizard when he was still in high school, he had web shooters and not organic webbing. In the Tobey Maguire films, his first girlfriend was mary jane watson MJ, curt connors never became the lizard, and his webbing was organic.
Now, I know that some EU details can be retconned if they contradict the films (a higher/main source of canon), and the main issue here is NOT about contradictions. But, the main point here is, the sam raimi and andrew garfield spiderman films are 2 totally different storylines that don't overalp with each other. I hate to repost this quote all over again, but I need it to illustrate my main point here-the EU is canon, the Star Wars films are canon, but they're two totally different storylines/universes that don't overlap with each other......
I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
The canon debate is important because you are using EU examples of the empire's atrocities to illustrate a point to the storlyine of the films, and the issue is, are they part of the same storyline??? There if contradicting evidence on both sides....
Why does this happen every so often, look it was fun...for a while
I'd say stop responding to the Father.
J
Jaitea said:
Why does this happen every so often, look it was fun...for a while
I'd say stop responding to the Father.
J
Why??? I aint trolling, I just happen to have certain, rather, extreme and controversial opinions about the Star Wars Movies!!!!!