What was the "fatal flaw" of the Prequels if you think they sucked? (aka. Let's take a break from hating on the blu-rays) — Page 4

theprequelsrule said:

I always pictured the fall of Anakin to be something very basic; power corrupts and abolsute unlimited power corrupts abolsutely unlimitedly (is that a word?). So Anakin was a great Jedi who fell in love with himself, his prestige etc., and caused him to commit more and more heinous acts to preserve these things.

Are you a sincere 'prequels lover' ? ;)  It's OK if you are.  I hate Eps. 1 and 2, but I like Episode 3--though I still have problems with how Anakin turned to the dark side.

Whether it's Anakin being given a terrible choice, or whether power corrupts him, there needed to be something very dramatic.

All I know is that I consider the prequels to be apocryphal and non-existent and I never watch them anymore.  The back story that was built up by Alec Guinness playing Obi Wan Kenobi and telling Luke how the Republic lasted for a thousand generations (years?) and how his pupil Darth Vader betrayed and murdered his father is far more poignant in my mind.

theprequelsrule said:

unlimitedly (is that a word?)

Ye.

In fact a prequel trilogy without Yoda, but with the Jedi constantly refering to him as the "big boss" of all Jedi would surely even increase the surprise of the puppet in ESB.

Having a chronological order should not be a problem for a good storyteller, to preserve surprise and play with the audience. On the contrary, it should have been the strenght of the prequels:

Can you imagine the fun of a father showing the prequels to his son, and his son saying to him "Wow, this Yoda guy they all talk about is surely a powerful warrior! Hope we'll see him!". You know what I mean.

Instead we, well, we had a powerful warrior Yoda, indeed... and the fun is gone. I'm sure the kid from my exemple would prefer the "size does not matter" lesson without having in mind: "Size does not matter: because even small you can always jump everywhere twirling your lightsaber and throwing force lightning at your ennemy's face. Having high Midichlorian count in your blood is a plus".

I know that for a child, action in movie is fun. But A child is a learning machine, he always prefer to learn something. Lucas somehow forgot that. He wanted to make the prequels for children, but it's not even that, IMO. As some other said, there not for child, they're childhish. At the OT time, every child wanted to LEARN  the force. When you are powerful, because you have more midichlorians in your blood, the fun is gone, specialy for kids.

Oh, and kids do not always like kids to be the main protagonist. When I was young I surely would die to be Short Round, but in fact I really wanted to be Indy, not the kid beside him. So yes, Starting with Anakin as a kid was not a good idea. Even for a movie "made for kid".

Jesus, that was a long time I did not write that long about the prequels. I guess I can remain silent a while now. :)

If the main action heroes were a couple of women (either of which could be Luke and Leia's mother) and the Anakin/Vader character is a minor unnamed character until he becomes Darth Vader who spends most of his screen time fighting the Jedi and not being one.

If Tarkin was a respectable military leader who has good reasons for backing the Emperor and becoming the cruel Grand Moff we see in ANH.

Such a trilogy would augment the existing films and be dramatic movies in their own right.

The existing PT is parasitic in it's relationship with the OT as apposed to balanced and dramatically unique.

Finding out that Threepio is Luke's brother was migraine inducing.

jonathan7 said:

@Sluggo

The interesting thing though is how superbly acted Alec Guinness is, in the scene in ANH when he talks about Lukes father and Darth Vader. In that the response, makes it seem that Kenobi was considering his words carefully and there was a lot more to the story. If you know what I mean?

Lucas was lucky Sir Guinness was such a thoughtful actor.  I am sure Sir Alec was thinking "How would I tell the son of my friend how his father was murdered?"  The moment of introspection was perfect.  Lucas would have had a much harder changing the original story if Guinness had played it differently.

It is too bad Darth Vader didn't understand this when Luke was being bbq'd by the Emperor.  The moment would have meant so much more if he merely looked on intently instead of yelling.

;)

George made the lousiest decisions when it comes to the storytelling of the PT.

TPM has no great story to tell at all. The political intrigue of the Naboo invasion frankly isn't very exciting. The film introduces the badass who may have turned into the younger generation's Darth Vader, only to kill him off after about five minutes of screen time. The Trade Federation never come off as threatening either, since they're depicted as blundering idiots who wouldn't even be able to tie their shoelaces.

AOTC is better, but Anakin's character development - the supposed backbone of the film - is ruined because of Hayden's woody acting. Anakin is a whiny asshole from the beginning and doesn't come off as Obi-Wan's best friend or a great warrior. When he breaks down after the Tuskin Raider massacre, it's hard to sympathize with him at all. And when he hits on Padmé, he has about as much charm as a child molester. The script doesn't help him much either. "Everything here is soft... and smooth." Yeah, unlike your moves, creep. When the Clone Wars commence and the film finally gains real momentum, it's over. You want to see the Clone Wars that Luke is so curious about in ANH? Go watch a shitty CG film. That's like making a WWII film that ends right as Poland is invaded.

ROTS is actually pretty decent, in my opinion. I may be in the minority, but when I rank the films, this usually comes in on a second place after ESB. If it has any major flaws, they are to be found in the previous films. If Anakin was never sympathetic, who's going to care about him turning into Darth Vader? This is particularly frustrating because this film had a lot of moments that showed that Lucas can still be a great director. The "Order 66"-montage is brilliant and actually surprisingly emotional, considering we never really got to know any of these Jedi in the first place. The scene in which Anakin seems to communicate telepathically with Padmé across the Coruscant dusk is another great scene, mainly because of John Williams finally taking a chance with the soundtrack. Anakin turning on his lightsaber, startling the Jedi youngling is such a simple moment, yet it's among the most powerful of the PT. No elaborate CG-environments can rival the sense of dread that you get from this shot and I really wish more of that attitude had gone into the making of the PT.

Of course, ROTS still has its flaws. General Grievous is a dumbass with bronchitis, the romance between Anakin and Padmé is still awkward, the film introduces the gaping plothole of Leia remembering her mother, the incredibly idiotic "NOOOOOOOO" etc. But I don't think the flaws are as distracting as in the previous films, and all in all, it was certainly the best Star Wars installment since ROTJ.

It's a shame the rest of the PT just wasn't as effective because of Lucas' ham-fisted director/writer/producer-combo.

Now I know that I am probably in the minority with this, but, I don't believe that there were any truly 'fatal' flaws with the PT. Rather, I believe there are many 'near fatal' flaws that were 'rescued' by certain strong points.

Let's start with Episode 1. The movie starts out very nicely with the tension building up from the very beginning. The Jedi enter the scene and I'm sure for most of us in 1999 it was like Star Wars all over again. It was great! Then... dun dun dun! Jar Jar Binks appears!

- Ok, I know that right now everyone is wanting to pull their hair out just at the mere mention of that name, but let me say, it wasn't his character that bothered me. I just think they needed to cut down his scenes and his dialogue by at least 80%. He dominates the movie, his presence grows tiring very fast, and, there is just too much of him in the movie as a whole. He gets WAY too much screen time, and he is a naturally annoying character, which would be fine if he didn't get so much screen time but unfortunately that wasn't the case.

- Now, onto the next case: The portrayal of the young Anakin Skywalker. First of all, Mr. Lucas, Anakin is 9. 9 year olds don't yell "Yippiiiieeee" unless they want to be laughed at at school. lol Now that that point has been made, I feel like... I understand WHY Lucas wanted to portray Anakin as a perfect angelic innocent kid in this movie, but, in doing so it really takes a big bite out of the realism of it. Anakin almost doesn't seem human here. And then in AOTC I have a hard time believing that it is the same person. Now, on Jake Lloyd's performance... I honestly don't have too many gripes with him. I felt he did a pretty fair job. Yes, there were times when he didn't seem like he was in character, but there were also times (ie, the scene where he leaves his mom) that were absolutely brilliant. So I felt his performance was fair, especially given his age. Not fantastic, but not terrible either.

- While I'm on the acting... I don't know what it was but Natalie Portman sure had a rough time with this film. She looked confused in like, every single scene she was in. lol

- The Gungans... I have to be honest, I love the Gungans. lol Yes, as I said there is WAY too much Jar Jar in the film. And yes, Boss Nass is also a bit on the annoying side. But the rest of the Gungans, I have no qualms with. I loved the scene with the Gungan army (minus the overwhelming amount of Jar Jar antics in that scene) and that General dude (don't know his name) is my FAVORITE. lol

- The two-headed announcer thingy... ok those guys DRIVE ME INSANE. Like... I don't know what it is but they just irritate me, like, more than Jar Jar. lol Ahhh... >.<

Ok... now here are the things that rescued the movie for me.

- The visuals. I honestly don't have issues with Lucasfilm's and ILM's CGI effects. I really think it's pretty cool. The action scenes, the battles, the lightsaber duels, the pod-race... loved all of it.

- The story, while it could have been executed much better, was not at all a bad story. A lot of people say it was an unnecessary story to the SW main overarching plot, but I have to disagree with that. TPM's storyline sets the stage for EVERYTHING that happens in the rest of the saga. And that leads me into the point that not only rescues this movie the most for me, but rescues all of the PT.

- Palpatine. His role in this film and all of the PT are essential to the plot. The way he sets up the ENTIRE WAR... EVERYTHING... it is pure evil genius. (I in no way endorse his character's views, just saying... lol) And not only that, but the acting... I have always believed that Ian McDiarmid's performance was the best out of all the actors involved in the saga. He was absolutely incredible!

- Finally... the music of John Williams. No matter how much you may despise The Phantom Menace, you can't deny the inevitable chills that will course down your spine when you hear those powerful opening chords to "Duel Of The Fates". Simply phenomenal.

Well, that's it for TPM. I'll post next about AOTC.

Choosing the single fatal flaw of the prequels is tricky, because there so many large problems that overlap, but if I had to think of one, its ultimately that we never really got to know ore care about these characters. 

Anakin's basically split into kid and teenager versions, the first being a bland youngster with no depth and the second being an adolescent asshole who seems irritated and frustrated by everyone but Padme. With Luke we got a feel what he wanted, and how he felt about the world around him; we got a look into his dreams. Anakin is defined entirely by his affection for his wife/mother and his lust for power. Other than some little comments about democracy, there's not much else to him. 

And Obi-Wan doesn't fare much better. He's likable by virtue of not being a violent murderer or complete idiot who doesn't see the obvious, but there's no arc or really deep insight into him either. There's more depth via the writing and Alec Guiness' acting in the first two acts of A New Hope then there are in three prequel films. Him going from slightly cocky and rash mentor to a calm and collected knight would have made us care about him, and would have helped to understand the person he is the original films.

Finally the writing does no favors for Padme, who's given some goals in her want of peaceful democracy in the Republic, but so many of her scenes involve her coming across as just flat and stilted. She says a lot of things, but her tone and overall demeanor lacks both the warmth and fiery edge of Leia. Even when talking about her planet suffering and dying she comes across like she's a bored office worker doing a presentation about saving money on paperclips.

The elements of her being a supposed determined, intelligent, and caring public servant feel so cosmetic that it ceases being real to an audience. That she becomes less and less of an actual character and more of a plot device to bring Anakin to the dark side as the films go on only makes things worse. It seems like that from the very start her basic template was bringing about Anakin's fall and being anti-dictatorship because her daughter was (will be?) in the original films. Its ironic that a character who Lucas had free range to write about (because she wasn't constrained by the same plot points of Anakin/Obi-Wan) has so little done with her. 

Jair Crawford said:

Now I know that I am probably in the minority with this, but, I don't believe that there were any truly 'fatal' flaws with the PT. Rather, I believe there are many 'near fatal' flaws that were 'rescued' by certain strong points.

Yes, you are very much in the minority.  The only rescuing that can be done is by faneditors, and even that can only go so far.

The 'fatal flaw' of the prequels in my opinion is that they suffer from GLs lazy, revisionist historianism. 'The stories were always about Darth Vader'...Bullshit. The OT was about Luke Skywalker. The prequels have, at least to me, diluted and lessened the power of the OT. I have no problem with anyone liking or loving the prequels and the EU but in my mind Star Wars will always begin with 'Star Wars' and end with 'Return Of The Jedi'. All the prequels did was completely destroy the whole mystique about Vader and The Force and all that other cool shit.

Cuchulainn said:

The 'fatal flaw' of the prequels in my opinion is that they suffer from GLs lazy, revisionist historianism. 'The stories were always about Darth Vader'...Bullshit. The OT was about Luke Skywalker. The prequels have, at least to me, diluted and lessened the power of the OT. I have no problem with anyone liking or loving the prequels and the EU but in my mind Star Wars will always begin with 'Star Wars' and end with 'Return Of The Jedi'. All the prequels did was completely destroy the whole mystique about Vader and The Force and all that other cool shit.