Lack of a good solid outline.
Even though Episode 1 is my least favorite of the prequels, that particular film still feels like a lot of planing went into it. 2 and three on the other hand feel really choppy and uneven, like they were rushed to completion. Much like a lot of the crap that came out around the writers strike.
I think if Lucas had put together a much more clear idea of what was going into each movie from the outset and really fleshed those ideas out rather than going into production with scripts that weren't even finished, then they would have played out much more smoothly.
I do like that they are basically using the Clone Wars to address some of these story telling issues with the movies but they shouldn't have to.
"George, we hate you for making more Star Wars movies. Please make more Star Wars movies."
-The Internet
Pacing, to me, is the biggest issue. The pacing on all 3 is horrendous except for probably the second half of ROTS. There's some interesting stuff going on in the plot, but Lucas can't hold your interest long enough to get invested in it. It's all very overwritten, there's scenes that seem to exist solely to get the running time to 2 hours in all of the prequels.
Darth Bizarro said:
I do like that they are basically using the Clone Wars to address some of these story telling issues with the movies but they shouldn't have to.
I think that's the best and worst part of The Clone Wars.
It's great to have a really heroic and likable Anakin. It's great to see the Clone Wars as a galaxy-spanning and very real, emotional, interesting, three-dimensional conflict with an impact. It's great to have plot holes filled and ideas from the OT expanded upon.
At the same time, it's really sad that they had to make a whole other media campaign to fill do what they could have, and should have, done in the PT.
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Lack of reasonable consequences to the characters and, environment. When I made this post recently about comparing Power Rangers to the Prequels I commented on the consequences. RLM also touched on that in his ROTS review. I got to thinking that's basically 90% of the problem. Virtually no consequence given to Anakin confessing to being a mass murderer to a Senator/Ex-Queen. No consequence given to Dooku telling Obi Wan basically all the important stuff. No reasonable consequence to a non-force user, just regular 5 foot + tall woman, getting the claws of a 20 foot long animal in her back and, later falling from a FLYING VEHICLE WHILE STILL INJURED FROM HAVING CLAWS IN HER BACK WHERE THE SPINE IS!!!!!! Oh yeah same superwoman dies of an emotionally broken heart... Geeze if he so wanted to show midriff so bad should've changed things like:
CGI Bug guard starts ripping PADME'S clothes off. ANAKIN sees this.
ANAKIN: Stop this!
ANAKIN starts fighting the bug guards again. While PADME resists the clothes being taken away. The bug guard rips her shirt revealing midriff. Just then, JANGO FETT enters putting a gun to ANAKIN'S neck. DOOKU enters right behind him.
DOOKU: (says something in Alien language calms the bugs down) (turns his attention to PADME) My greatest apologies Quee- Wait, I'm sorry once again Senator.
PADME: How about pulling that Foreign tongue magic trick again and, telling the guards to let us go?
DOOKU: I don't have that kind of power. I'm answerable to :
Speaking of which, I must be going. I wouldn't want to end up where you two are headed.
ANAKIN bruised from the scuffle with the bug guards is allowed to get closer to PADME before being forced out into the ARENA. While JANGO FETT and, DOOKU take their leave.
ANAKIN: I failed you. I'm sorry. I should've never brought you here. If we make it out of here and, you never want to see me again I understand.
PADME: I asked to be here. Not this (points to the bug guards) but, I wanted to save Obi wan just as much as you did. We came to this planet together and, we're going to leave together.
ANAKIN: You really mean that?
PADME cuts through trying to say anything in response and, just gives ANAKIN a kiss.
(I'm tired, forgot the main baddies name in AOTC. Pic substitute used instead... "Bug guard" substituted for "Geonosian guard" just 'cause....)
I don't know, something like that^.... Sorry kind of turned into rewriting the prequels... Um, yeah. Short answer "consequences"...
http://twister111.tumblr.com
Previous Signature preservation link
lack of a strong central villain, somebody the audience just loves to hate the same way that Vader was feared all those years ago. Instead we got 3 sacrificial lambs in the form of Maul, Dooku and Grievous.
They tried playing the 'Cool' angle with Maul, but while he certainly looked the part he didn't really get a chance to do much 'evil' apart from showing off his cool martial arts moves and his double ended lightsaber gimmick. probably sold a lot of action-figures but equally just as forgettable.
Dooku was a step in the right direction and one of the best casting decisions made in the prequels, but again another wasted opportunity, his character was a little too ambiguous, is he good?/is he bad? , I wish he'd been established in the first film and given a bit more of a chance for evil, they could've just replaced the bumbling Neimodians altogether with Dooku as the mysterious head of the Trade Federation, I always found it hard to believe that a wise old Jedi like Dooku could be so oblivious to the Emperor ordering his death at the hands of Anakin, His death should've been worked into Anakin's turn later in the film.
and finally Grievous , another 'cool' villain with no less than 4 lightsabers and guaranteed to sell heaps of action-figures, but anything even remotely scary or ominous about him dissapeared as soon as strode onto the screen coughing up a lung like a chain-smoker with 2 weeks to live.
twister111 said:
Lack of reasonable consequences to the characters and, environment. When I made this post recently about comparing Power Rangers to the Prequels I commented on the consequences. RLM also touched on that in his ROTS review. I got to thinking that's basically 90% of the problem. Virtually no consequence given to Anakin confessing to being a mass murderer to a Senator/Ex-Queen. No consequence given to Dooku telling Obi Wan basically all the important stuff. No reasonable consequence to a non-force user, just regular 5 foot + tall woman, getting the claws of a 20 foot long animal in her back and, later falling from a FLYING VEHICLE WHILE STILL INJURED FROM HAVING CLAWS IN HER BACK WHERE THE SPINE IS!!!!!! Oh yeah same superwoman dies of an emotionally broken heart... Geeze if he so wanted to show midriff so bad should've changed things like:
CGI Bug guard starts ripping PADME'S clothes off. ANAKIN sees this.
ANAKIN: Stop this!
ANAKIN starts fighting the bug guards again. While PADME resists the clothes being taken away. The bug guard rips her shirt revealing midriff. Just then, JANGO FETT enters putting a gun to ANAKIN'S neck. DOOKU enters right behind him.
DOOKU: (says something in Alien language calms the bugs down) (turns his attention to PADME) My greatest apologies Quee- Wait, I'm sorry once again Senator.
PADME: How about pulling that Foreign tongue magic trick again and, telling the guards to let us go?
DOOKU: I don't have that kind of power. I'm answerable to :
Speaking of which, I must be going. I wouldn't want to end up where you two are headed.
ANAKIN bruised from the scuffle with the bug guards is allowed to get closer to PADME before being forced out into the ARENA. While JANGO FETT and, DOOKU take their leave.
ANAKIN: I failed you. I'm sorry. I should've never brought you here. If we make it out of here and, you never want to see me again I understand.
PADME: I asked to be here. Not this (points to the bug guards) but, I wanted to save Obi wan just as much as you did. We came to this planet together and, we're going to leave together.
ANAKIN: You really mean that?
PADME cuts through trying to say anything in response and, just gives ANAKIN a kiss.
(I'm tired, forgot the main baddies name in AOTC. Pic substitute used instead... "Bug guard" substituted for "Geonosian guard" just 'cause....)
I don't know, something like that^.... Sorry kind of turned into rewriting the prequels... Um, yeah. Short answer "consequences"...
Cool, more ideas for AOTR! And it's always a treat to see Nute and Rune taking a bath together again. ;-)
The fatal flaw is that Star Wars became a vehicle to making toys, so instead of having toys based off film characters. The films were made with the concern of, what looks good and sells toys.
The biggest problem with TPM is the Pod Race, essentially Lucas wanted a Pod Race, and so tryed to come up with a contrived Plot which would let him have a Pod Race in there. That's why there is so much pointless dialogue on Tatooine as he trys to contrive the reason for the Pod Race.
AotC sucks, because frankly Star Wars is called Star WARS - yet two thirds of the film goes by before there is a WAR... Instead we have to put up with a lack lustre love story with horrific dialog and crap acting. Of course I do feel sorry for the actors in AotC and RotS, cant be easy to act when all you have is a stick and a blue screen.
RotS just left itself too much to do, and we didn't see enough of Vader hunting down Jedi... IMO most of that film should of been after Vader had turned and him hunting down and killing Jedi...
This then moves us into the fact Star Wars being made exclusively as a kids film - with all the horrible crap that started in RotJ... What amazes me, is Lucas doesn't seem to realise that kids loved ANH and ESB - He didn't have to talk down to them, or have crap humour, or teddy-bears beating an "entire legion of my best troops" for them to love Star Wars. Then suddenly Lucas seems to of realised in RotS he needed to go "adult again" to finish it...
"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore
"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
Is "everything" an acceptable answer? Because that's how I honestly feel.
I actually think it's the bad scenes that "save" the prequels. The "sand" dialog and the love dance in the flower field, those sorts of things at least make the movies funny in a "Plan 9 from Outer Space" sort of way. The periodic cool visuals and unintended comic relief combine keep them from just being boring.
So the fatal flaw? Boring. Why? Uncompelling story and wooden acting. Why the wooden acting? Probably because of bad script and poor direction with too much use of bluescreen.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
redlettermedia, but don't forget http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ :)
For me, the prequels simply didn't live up to what Obiwan described, quite eloquently in Star Wars, when talking with Luke. The way he got misty-eyed about the past was quite different than what the PTs portrayed. Instead of some enlightened period, we got Jar Jar stepping in shit, pretentious Jedi, and politics as usual.
The devil's in the details. For example, there was a poetry with Luke cutting off Vader's hand in ROTJ, seeing it was mechanical, and it dawning on him that he was in danger of turning into the same as he contemplated his own mechanical hand. In the PT, Vader got his hand and legs cut off, and left to burn and die a painful slow death by Kenobi. It just crapped on that ROTJ moment, and showed Kenobi to be a sadistic asshole to boot.
The other is this "backstory" crap. Why is everyone involved already? Chewie, R2D2, C3PO, Boba/Jango Fett, and Jabba did NOT need to be there. Doing that just shriunk the SW universe down rather than expand it. But then again, the PT is nothing without endless references to the OT.
The PTs just destroyed whatever images the OT established about that time period.
May the midichlorians be with you.
Lol. Well, it seems like the prequels really sucked. It seems like they were the anti-Star Wars. In the original everything just came together (somehow), but in the prequels everything seems to have gone wrong. Even the special effects have dated far worse than the OT.
One of the most frustrating things is that some of the earlier TPM scripts seem to have been substantially better than the shooting script.
“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord
Bring_My_Shuttle said:
The PTs just destroyed whatever images the OT established about that time period.
Let's face it ROTJ established Ben as an unreliable narrator so if the films had been written well and had characters and situations you could believe in that wouldn't have been a problem, if anything it could have been a boon to the 99% of the audience in 1999 who had already seen the OT in some form.
Finding out that the Jedi and the Republic were far from the rosy picture Ben painted could have injected a bit of surprise into a PT which (as George provided) could easily be a shopping list of meetings and events we didn't need to see.
Bring_My_Shuttle said:
...
The devil's in the details. For example, there was a poetry with Luke cutting off Vader's hand in ROTJ, seeing it was mechanical, and it dawning on him that he was in danger of turning into the same as he contemplated his own mechanical hand. In the PT, Vader got his hand and legs cut off, and left to burn and die a painful slow death by Kenobi. It just crapped on that ROTJ moment, and showed Kenobi to be a sadistic hat to boot.
...
I would add to this that while Anakin still needed to have fallen into the volcano (that's right..VOLCANO, not some lava river), Ben needn't have cut his arms and legs off. They could have lost in the volcano.
Mostly, I would have liked to see Ben think Anakin has died, only to discover later the new leader of the Imperial forces, Darth Vader, was actually Anakin. When Ben was talking to Luke, he knew Darth Vader was a pupil of his who turned to the dark side of the force. In Episode III, the connection that Ben knows about Vader isn't really there.
Sluggo said:
Bring_My_Shuttle said:
...
The devil's in the details. For example, there was a poetry with Luke cutting off Vader's hand in ROTJ, seeing it was mechanical, and it dawning on him that he was in danger of turning into the same as he contemplated his own mechanical hand. In the PT, Vader got his hand and legs cut off, and left to burn and die a painful slow death by Kenobi. It just crapped on that ROTJ moment, and showed Kenobi to be a sadistic hat to boot.
...I would add to this that while Anakin still needed to have fallen into the volcano (that's right..VOLCANO, not some lava river), Ben needn't have cut his arms and legs off. They could have lost in the volcano.
I always disliked the volcano idea, and for some reason I always thought the injuries we see in ESB and ROTJ seemed like those associated with radiation exposure. I think I was convinced after seeing TPM that Anakin would received the injuries in that same power core on Naboo where Maul fought Kenobi and Jinn.
“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord
It's always been stated in a lot of the early EU that Anakin needed the suit as he'd fallen into some kind of "molten pit" ( believe that's the wording in the Scrapbook or wherever I first saw it) and so that's been in the majority of fan's minds since then.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
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@Sluggo
The interesting thing though is how superbly acted Alec Guinness is, in the scene in ANH when he talks about Lukes father and Darth Vader. In that the response, makes it seem that Kenobi was considering his words carefully and there was a lot more to the story. If you know what I mean?
@Tyrphanax
Are there any sources for the OT EU prior to the Prequels, I've heard that Lucas contradicts a lot of the previous work, but unfortunately I've never seen/read the ideas that pre-dated the Prequels.
"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore
"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
There's a laundry list of things which contributed to overall craptitude of the prequels. Among other larger ones:
Lucas' hand-holding
few practical effects/sets
characters that look like cartoons
slapstick moments
poor script and story arc
poor directing and editing
wooden acting
lame fight choreography (Eps II and III)
CGI overload
Anyway, as for the "fatal" flaw, I can easily condense everything into one point, and that is simply that G.L. wasn't interested in making the best movies possible. Personally, I wish it was the opposite, and that he would want to make something worthy of originals. Of course this would actually involve him relinquishing his stranglehold of the franchise while allowing for other ideas and other, more talented people to make some decisions. This did not happen.
jonathan7 said:
@Tyrphanax
Are there any sources for the OT EU prior to the Prequels, I've heard that Lucas contradicts a lot of the previous work, but unfortunately I've never seen/read the ideas that pre-dated the Prequels.
I hate to do this, but in order to stay on topic, I'm gonna direct you to this thread where I'll answer!
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
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The greatest flaw was starting at the wrong point in the story.
Should of started with Anakin as a Jedi already already trained by Obi and Yoda.
As said in one of the posts it should of started with Episode 3 and have that as Episode 1.
It will lessen the need for Padme and politics of the movies and make Anakin and Obi stronger characters because the movies would be based mostly on them. Luke and Leia could of still been born in Episode 1 and then have Anakin become Vader at the start of Episode 2 and the clone wars begins.
I realise my post goes on more about the story but my main point is starting Anakins story too early.
Imagine if Episode 4 started with Luke aged 10 and the story doesn't get a kick along until he becomes the age he actually was in Episode 4.
Battle droids the robotic incarnations of Jar Jar Binks.
We(as in anyone who was familiar with the OT before the prequels were released) all went into the prequels knowing exactly were it was heading and what was going to happen.
The original trilogy(as it unfolded from 77' to 83') was completely the opposite.
But it is always interesting to see the reaction of someone who has never seen any of the SW films----and how they react to the prequels:
That’s right. I have no problem admitting it. Here’s the thing. I’ve never really been into to the Sci-Fi genre. I’m sure all you Star Wars fans are probably cursing me right now.
Now, when I decided to watch them I decided to watch them in order. So, last night I watched the 3 prequels. Yup. Three Star Wars movies in a row. And you know what? I actually liked them.
http://dopeoplereallyreadthesethings.wordpress.com/2011/02/12/i-have-never-seen-star-wars/
I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8
Filthy Pierre said:
The greatest flaw was starting at the wrong point in the story.
Should of started with Anakin as a Jedi already already trained by Obi and Yoda.
As said in one of the posts it should of started with Episode 3 and have that as Episode 1.
It will lessen the need for Padme and politics of the movies and make Anakin and Obi stronger characters because the movies would be based mostly on them. Luke and Leia could of still been born in Episode 1 and then have Anakin become Vader at the start of Episode 2 and the clone wars begins.
I realise my post goes on more about the story but my main point is starting Anakins story too early.
Imagine if Episode 4 started with Luke aged 10 and the story doesn't get a kick along until he becomes the age he actually was in Episode 4.
I still maintain that it was a mistake to focus too much on Anakin/Obi-Wan etc
We get to learn almost everything we need to know about them in the OT.
The PT would work better as drama if those characters were relatively minor characters and the characters we care about in the first three episodes don't have a zone of certainty around them.
That way people watching them after the OT will not know they are safe or doomed and people watching from the PT through to the OT will not have the plot spoiled from the later episodes.
They need to be in there somewhere but we don't need them to be the main characters any more than we need Mon Mothma and Motti to be the main characters of the OT.
We didn't need to see Yoda at all.
I think the fatal flaw is that Lucas obviously got the wrong end of the stick as I feel he was really trying very hard to please the fans of the original trilogy.
I think he failed to recognise that the majority of the fans have grown up, and now watch grown up films. He tried too hard to make it feel and look the same as he thinks we see it ie: deserts(tatooine), Jedi in robes, R2, 3PO, sideous robots, spaceships, lasers. But to us with it being such a big part our childhood it means a whole lot more than this, probably more than it should and really would of been impossible to fully please and delight.
It would have been something truly amazing if he had pulled it off. I feel he tried to throw everything from the originals he could get away with throwing in so we would all feel "MMmmm Star Wars".
But by doing this it ultimately made us all feel "AAHHH Star Wars!"
He would of been better rethinking it and making it look less like Star Wars as it were. Change locations, change costumes make the whole story line more grown up.
Then after everyone moaned about TPM he tried again with AOTC. You can plainly see that he tried then to tone down certain elements (jaja, comedy) but up others (Anakin being bad!, battles). But I feel because of TPM the damage had already been done and we all realised this is never going to be like we all felt it should have been and could never be.
I thin by ROTS he got to the part we had all actually wanted to see from the start,( I dont know anyone who really thought of the story of Anakin the little kid was going star the prequel trilogy), the Obi and Anakin duel and the masking of Vader, but once again he did what he thinks we wanted to see and mucked it up again.
I'll never forget my missus laughing as Vader went Nooo! and did that funny walk (ministry of) and now he's put into the OT!
Dont get me wrong it did work on some levels ie: young kids bought into it, merchandising and so'forth which I think really that is what Lucas has become best at, the business of making money not movies.
In the early days Lucas was helped by the people around him being people, the effects team were did things there way, he had others rewrite the scripts and add their 2 cents worth in, he had others edit the movies and suggest ways they felt better. Now I dont think anyone does.
Ultimately I think Lucas should have handed over the reigns to another team to take it on, people who didnt have such a vested interest as Lucas does, who Ihave no idea.
I think maybe one day, I hope in my lifetime (I'm 38), some'one will do a remake and it might be quite good.
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Ps: I really do love Star Wars and readilly watch all the movies over and over. But my kids are'nt as keen ( "Oh no not again Dad")
Filthy Pierre said:
The greatest flaw was starting at the wrong point in the story.
Should of started with Anakin as a Jedi already already trained by Obi and Yoda.
As said in one of the posts it should of started with Episode 3 and have that as Episode 1.
The Star Wars audience could never, ever identify with a 10 year old Anakin Skywalker. Small kids? Probably. But if I was a little kid watching TPM for the first time, I wouldn't have liked Anakin all that much either.
Your proposal for a different starting point is an interesting one. I probably wouldn't have introduced Anakin Skywalker till Episode 2 when he was in his late teens, early 20s. Obviously, he needs a love interest of sorts to be the mother of Luke and Leia.
But there definitely needs to be stronger motivation for Anakin to turn to the dark side. Perhaps he turns because he is given such a terrible choice where the alternative (the right thing to do) might even have other negative consequences--and not just a possibility that "Padme might die" because of some vague nightmare. Perhaps Anakin has to use the dark side to overcome such a powerful and overwhelming enemy that we can somewhat understand where he is coming from.
I'm no writer or anything like that, but a competent screenwriter could flesh out something that would be extremely tragic.
hitfan said:
Filthy Pierre said:
The greatest flaw was starting at the wrong point in the story.
Should of started with Anakin as a Jedi already already trained by Obi and Yoda.
As said in one of the posts it should of started with Episode 3 and have that as Episode 1.
The Star Wars audience could never, ever identify with a 10 year old Anakin Skywalker. Small kids? Probably. But if I was a little kid watching TPM for the first time, I wouldn't have liked Anakin all that much either.
Your proposal for a different starting point is an interesting one. I probably wouldn't have introduced Anakin Skywalker till Episode 2 when he was in his late teens, early 20s. Obviously, he needs a love interest of sorts to be the mother of Luke and Leia.
But there definitely needs to be stronger motivation for Anakin to turn to the dark side. Perhaps he turns because he is given such a terrible choice where the alternative (the right thing to do) might even have other negative consequences--and not just a possibility that "Padme might die" because of some vague nightmare. Perhaps Anakin has to use the dark side to overcome such a powerful and overwhelming enemy that we can somewhat understand where he is coming from.
I'm no writer or anything like that, but a competent screenwriter could flesh out something that would be extremely tragic.
I always pictured the fall of Anakin to be something very basic; power corrupts and abolsute unlimited power corrupts abolsutely unlimitedly (is that a word?). So Anakin was a great Jedi who fell in love with himself, his prestige etc., and caused him to commit more and more heinous acts to preserve these things.
“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord
Bingowings said:
I still maintain that it was a mistake to focus too much on Anakin/Obi-Wan etc
We get to learn almost everything we need to know about them in the OT.
The PT would work better as drama if those characters were relatively minor characters and the characters we care about in the first three episodes don't have a zone of certainty around them.
That way people watching them after the OT will not know they are safe or doomed and people watching from the PT through to the OT will not have the plot spoiled from the later episodes.
They need to be in there somewhere but we don't need them to be the main characters any more than we need Mon Mothma and Motti to be the main characters of the OT.
We didn't need to see Yoda at all.
I anticipated a new Star Wars movie during the lean years (1984-1998). There was a lot of feverish anticipation leading up to TPM, and whatever it's flaws, the trailer for it was absolutely awesome.
A prequel trilogy without Yoda would certainly preserve the surprise in ESB when it's revealed that the annoying green muppet is actually him.
I also wonder how the prequels would have been like if the name Darth Vader and the mask never appeared in Episode III. Just have Obi Wan seemingly kill Anakin after he turned to the dark side. When people see Episode IV, audiences will wonder who Darth Vader is. And they'll wonder why Obi Wan told Luke that Vader killed Anakin.