Seriously, this is something which has always bothered me since I was a child.
After saving Han, Luke goes to Dagobah to complete his training, but Yoda says him he already knows everything he needs, BUT... in order to become a Jedi, he must face Vader. Why? Why does he specifically has to face Vader to prove worthy of the title? What does it have to do with the training? I guess he symbolically needs to face his fears, but what about the Emperor? Didn't Obi-wan and Yoda want to train Luke to defeat the Emperor? Will facing Vader make him somehow ready to face the Emperor's knowledge of the darkside?
He then meets Obi-wan, and he says that Luke must face Vader because it is his "destiny" (ha, how convenient! Every now and then, someone says Luke must do this or that because it's his "destiny". How do they know what's his destiny, anyway? :D).
On Endor, Luke decides to leave his "party" and tells Leia he has to meet Vader to "save" him (and also hide their presence to the Empire). He finally meets Vader, but he refuses to come with him. Instead, he decides to bring him to the Emperor (nice work, Luke!)
Face to face with the Emperor (who puts Luke's lightsaber right off his nose), Luke doesn't try to kill him. Why? He's the Supreme Commander of the Imperial fleet which threatens to destroy the Rebels, but he won't move a finger, even when their secret plan seems to be futile.
In anger, he tastes the darkside and tries to kill the Emperor, but is forced to defeat Vader first (which he does), while refusing to submit to the darkside. One more to go: the Emperor. What does our hero do? He throws away his lightsaber and nearly gets killed. What!?
So, what do you think? What was Luke's entire plan all along? :D
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His plan was not getting tempted by the dark side and bring his father back to the light side.
Also, when he finally attacks the Emperor, he's stopped by Vader, what makes you think Vader wouldn't have stopped Luke, if he tried that earlier?
You question Luke's motives as soon as he leaves Tattoine, but not his plan to rescue Han? In my eyes that's the most illogical thing in that movie :D
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Frank your Majesty said:
Also, when he finally attacks the Emperor, he's stopped by Vader, what makes you think Vader wouldn't have stopped Luke, if he tried that earlier?
I'm sure Vader would've tried to stop Luke, but he could've still tried to disarm him like in the end does (but without using the darkside).
Frank your Majesty said:
His plan was not getting tempted by the dark side and bring his father back to the light side.
What about his two-movies-long jedi training? Just to get killed by the Emperor? Still doesn't make sense to me :\
Frank your Majesty said:
You question Luke's motives as soon as he leaves Tattoine, but not his plan to rescue Han? In my eyes that's the most illogical thing in that movie :D
I agree, that was confusing as well :D
It's just that I wanted to focus the thread on the second part of the movie.
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But Luke feared that he wasn't powerful enough or that he would slip to the dark side, when he attacks Vader. He still can't overthrow him until he attacks him out of anger. Only then he realizes what he has done.
It wasn't his plan to defeat the Emperor, he wanted to save Vader at all costs and risked his own life.
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You're right, it could be that he didn't want to hurt his father in the process, and eventually "save" him.
But why didn't he want to kill the Emperor, though? I don't get it. He was trained just so that he could defeat him:
Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor.
Yoda says he knows everything he needs. If he can't defeat the Emperor because he's afraid he's not ready yet, then his masters have failed :D
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To conquer isn't to kill, so I guess Luke wanted to defeat the Emperor in another way, maybe with the help of his father?
Anyways, you have seen how Luke rescued Han, does he really look like a guy with a plan?
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Frank your Majesty said:
To conquer isn't to kill, so I guess Luke wanted to defeat the Emperor in another way, maybe with the help of his father?
Well, by "defeating" I didn't necessarily mean killing, but throwing away your lightsaber isn't the smartest idea against that guy, either :D
Frank your Majesty said:
Anyways, you have seen how Luke rescued Han, does he really look like a guy with a plan?
:D My answer is:
HAN
Luke? Luke's crazy. He can't even take care of himself, much less rescue anybody.
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Answer: the script was written in one draft by George Lucas weeks before shooting. Luke had to rescue Han because Lucas didn't want his most marketable character out of the third movie (they were going to rescue Han anyways at the end of ESB). Luke had to fight Vader and the Empereor again to tie everything in a neat bow because Lucas didnt want to make any more Star Wars movies; he wanted to shift his focus on Howard the Duck and Ewok merchandise.
John Doom said:
Frank your Majesty said:
To conquer isn't to kill, so I guess Luke wanted to defeat the Emperor in another way, maybe with the help of his father?
Well, by "defeating" I didn't necessarily mean killing, but throwing away your lightsaber isn't the smartest idea against that guy, either :D
Obviously, it was succesful ;)
Luke: "I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me"
That is his success, his plan to turn Vader worked out, even at the last moment.
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Luke wants to redeem his father (and befriend him) as well as stop the Emperor. Killing Vader's best friend while Vader is nearly helpless to stop it doesn't strike me as a very good method for doing that. Even if said best friend is Space Hitler.
And also has the first name Sheev.
Seriously... "Sheev"?
“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”
Luke throwing down his lightsaber might be the best part of ROTJ. He's finally learned the lesson from the cave. "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Chills.
I do have a few problems with his arc. First of all, he enters the movie as a fully fledged Jedi, despite not completing his training. Secondly, I wish he had stronger feelings about not being told the truth about his father; as is, Obi-wan shows up and he's just like "okay." Thirdly, there's never really a moment where we feel like he could actually turn to the dark side, and, lastly, his confidence in Vader's goodness is not at all justified.
Not sure about his goal but the fact that Yoda and Ben seem to be so intent on Luke facing Vader is never really explained, and I don't know if there is any good reason behind that other than Vader is "evil" and must be defeated. I feel like there was a lot of room for depth there that was sort of glossed over.
In Empire Strikes Back Vader very clearly says that he "Plans to Rule the Galaxy and defeat the emperor" and asks Luke to Join him.
Luke resists but plays it off against Vader in the throne room that he would join him but not on the dark side. So it was really a trap that was set for the emperor and not so much about Luke Facing Vader.
Vader became practically a half good guy at the end of Empire Strikes Back.
The only conflict was joining the darkside but Luke manages to Bring Vader to his senses. Although the emperors hopes were resting in Luke destroying Vader.
Luke has to face Vader to make the movie exciting. Yoda knew this.
As for the plan to rescue Han, it was a masterpiece of subterfuge, akin to Inspector Clouseau's ruse of being an idiot, all the while brilliantly hiding his cunning genius and luring Jabba out into the open. Yoda's training made it all possible... he used the Jedi mind trick to get Jabba to take them to the Sarlacc pit. Isn't this obvious?
"Close the blast doors!"
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DominicCobb said:
Luke throwing down his lightsaber might be the best part of ROTJ. He's finally learned the lesson from the cave. "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Chills.
Pretty much this ^.
Luke doesn't even now what it is to be a Jedi before that moment (Or what the darkside is). Then throwing down his sabre he finally gets it. In that moment he has just tasted the power that the dark side would give him and yet still rejects it. The Emperor also recognises this and admits defeat.
ROTJ hands down beats ROTK on this front because Frodo never has that moment where he conquers the dark power of The Ring. It just goes down to a twist of fate.
Luke's plan was just to try to turn his father back to the light. He didn't understand how he'd be tested, so he had no plans beyond that.
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I think ROTK is trying to make a different point, though. all throughout LOTR, we've seen initially good people around Frodo succumbing to the Ring through their weaknesses, while Frodo remains practically incorruptible. The fact that he doesn't come around at the end, and that the Ring is only destroyed because of external forces, drives it home that even Frodo isn't beyond the reach of evil. Luke's journey, on the other hand, is framed as a question of whether or not he can avoid going down the same path as his father. The payoff here is that he isn't doomed to repeat Anakin's mistakes, So the satisfying triumphant ending fits. I think both endings work wonderfully for their respective works, but they're almost negative images of each other thematically.
To Emperor, Vader at that point (as well as death star and imperial fleet) was just a tool (disposable asset) to bring Luke to the dark side and become his successor. Emperor's plan was proceeding perfectly. If Luke continued and engaged in a fight with Emperor he would just fall to the dark side and let the Emperor achieve his final goal. That way he remained a Jedi (even if it meant his death) and at the same time did not let Emperor win.
My theory is that Yoda and Obi-Wan never realistically hoped that Luke could beat the Emperor. I think their plan was exactly what happened in the end. To them Luke was just a tool to trigger Anakin's return who would be able to kill the Emperor. That's why Yoda told Luke that he would only become a Jedi after facing Vader again.
真実
Of course he had to face Vader. Not doing so would be like studying for a test all semester, and then sleeping in instead of taking it.
I've always thought that it was a mistake to start the third film rescuing Han.
If it was that urgent we would have skipped the bit where Luke's hand heals and had the whole gang leave the fleet with Lando and Chewie.
So for me Luke has spent the gap completing his training (in the absence of a fan-edit he did this telepathically with both Ben and Yoda but with increasingly powerful interruptions from Vader psychically trolling him).
After saving Han with a plan that currently makes no sense at all he goes back to Jedi camp where Yoda can die in confidence knowing that doesn't really make much difference as he can phone in anything else from Jedi Valhalla.
So he has two teachers with conflicting attitudes.
Ben (Fibby-Wan) Kenobi : is more militant. He urges Luke to face the enemy and destroy it.
Yoda is more Taoist. He sees Vader and the fear of becoming Vader as Luke's weakness. He must face his fear for real (in the way he failed in the cave) only then will he receive the secret insight to save the day.
FFWD to DEATH STAR 2 :Electric Boogaloo.
Luke has just gone boingyoingyoing and has a blade at his Father's neck. He has defeated his Father but stands on the edge of becoming Vader or worse.
Palpatine makes the over confident error of gloating about this which wakes Luke up to what has happened. He still has a choice.
He says NOooooooooooooooooOOOOooooooooooooooo! (only in a more dignified way than is usual for this series).
This is the end of Luke's importance to the story. His compassion and Palpatine's dickishness is a wake up call for Anakin. If Luke is willing to throw his potentially long and successful career as the boss of all things away to save his dad from the man, he (being an old barely alive torso in a robosuit) can throw what left of his life (and his backstabby old git of a boss) down an inexplicably placed hole in the floor to save his not so only child.
Luke doesn't really have a plan beyond hoping to save his dad before the station explodes. He totally fell for the boss queen of the galaxy sitting in the unfinished, not operational, barely protected, planet smashing death ray machine schtick.
The plans are made for him by old men, Ben, Yoda, Vader and Palpatine. He might has well have stayed on the farm and let Owen boss him about.
Luke's essential power comes from rejecting the advice of older people and being his own man.
UP YOU...OLD GUYS!
Well it could have been different, Luke's Hand crawling of it's own accord... I bet they thought about Vaders Hand doing that too.
Bingowings said:
an inexplicably placed hole in the floor
You bring this up all the time. It's there because it looks impressive (Both within the film's logic and from a moviegoing perspective). This is a real-life building in China...
^ That inside space could have been used to fit in more offices (Or cellblocks and garbage-mashers) but for some reason they left it empty? Maybe the architect designed it in the hope that somebody would use it for the same purpose that Vader did ;-)
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Ronster said:
Well it could have been different, Luke's Hand crawling of it's own accord... I bet they thought about Vaders Hand doing that too.
Too Evil Dead II.
Disembodied living hands may work for the above, but they'd be out of place in a Star Wars film. I'm glad the idea didn't make it into the film.
Exactly my thoughts too.
Ryan McAvoy said:
Bingowings said:
an inexplicably placed hole in the floor
You bring this up all the time. It's there because it looks impressive (Both within the film's logic and from a moviegoing perspective). This is a real-life building in China...
^ That inside space could have been used to fit in more offices (Or cellblocks and garbage-mashers) but for some reason they left it empty? Maybe the architect designed it in the hope that somebody would use it for the same purpose that Vader did ;-)
It has long been a concept in Science Fiction, (and those who think about the real life implications of living in space) that you need such large open areas for air circulation, heat dissipation, and so people don't go crazy from living in small enclosed spaces for long periods of time.
Where were you in '77?
I still think throwing away his lightsaber was foolish. Even if Yoda and Obi-wan weren't able to train him to stand against the Emperor, I think it would've make more sense if Luke had done his best to defend himself, even if eventually losing. And THEN have Vader save the day and redeem himself.
The way Luke throws away his lightsaber looks like he's ready to die like in TESB, instead of actually giving his life to save the galaxy (like Vader later does).
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John Doom said:
I still think throwing away his lightsaber was foolish. Even if Yoda and Obi-wan weren't able to train him to stand against the Emperor, I think it would've make more sense if Luke had done his best to defend himself, even if eventually losing. And THEN have Vader save the day and redeem himself.
The way Luke throws away his lightsaber looks like he's ready to die like in TESB, instead of actually giving his life to save the galaxy (like Vader later does).
You missed the point. By fighting Emperor he would not to save the galaxy. He would just go along with the Emperor's plan. If he fought him he would fall to the dark side and instead of saving the galaxy he would become Emperor's tool.
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