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What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy? - a general discussion thread — Page 5

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I’d say that’s very likely as Bob Iger was involved in the decision to kill off Han.

“Disney’s CEO, Bob Iger, said he was consulted by Lucasfilm head Kathleen Kennedy and director J.J. Abrams about the decision to kill Han Solo before Star Wars: The Force Awakens was made.”

“We had a big debate about Han Solo,” Iger said. “Should he die or not? It was a decision made by Kennedy and Abrams, but I got involved.”

https://www.polygon.com/2017/10/4/16418218/star-wars-han-solo-bob-iger-disney

I vaguely recall Harrison Ford also saying Han would die in George’s Episode VII. George himself said Luke would die in his Episode IX after rebuilding the Jedi Order and that Leia would still be alive and elected Supreme Chancellor. I think it would’ve played out differently than what we got as context would be vastly different. George didn’t just kill characters off to be edgy. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dying in the first two trilogies serves the narrative in the subsequent two films in their trilogies. In what we got Han and Luke dying has no weight as they’re glossed over and don’t serve any true narrative purposes.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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SparkySywer said:

oojason said:

Servii said:

It’s important to understand that, when it comes to liking or disliking a fictional space movie, morality has no bearing on a person’s opinion. Whether or not you like a space adventure movie says nothing about you as a human being, because it’s just a movie.

I remember after TLJ came out, and for the next couple years, there was a massive wave of articles by journalists that tried to either trivialize or vilify criticizers of the film. “It’s just Russian bots.” “It’s just a small group of racist trolls online.” “They’re not real fans, anyway. They’re just manbabies who don’t understand the true meaning of Star Wars.” I heard all of these repeatedly from journalists, with similar sentiments even being repeated by Lucasfilm employees. Of course, antagonizing your own customers is never a good idea, no matter how little you care about them. But the whole thing was so bizarre, I still can’t fully wrap my head around it.

That was because it was true (the part about Russian bots, trolls spammers - the racists, sexists and homophobes - we even had numbers of them on here). There is a massive disconnect between criticising and outing these fuckwits - and ‘antagonizing your own customers’, as you claim.

This is true, but it’s at least worth mentioning that there’s a vocal minority of trigger-happy ST fans who’ll happily lump valid criticism in with bad faith actors.

Definitely. I’m kind of guilty of that myself, if only as a defense mechanism when interacting with people online. I see dislike of the sequels as a red flag about certain attitudes that needs to be disproven by the disliking party. If they start ranting about Gina Carano’s firing, a “Lucasfilm civil war,” or even how there will be a “retcon of the sequels through the World Between Worlds,” then I feel the urge to disengage.

That’s a flaw on my part.

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If they start ranting about Gina Carano’s firing, a “Lucasfilm civil war,” or even how there will be a “retcon of the sequels through the World Between Worlds,” then I feel the urge to disengage.

That’s a flaw on my part.

No, that’s fair. I roll my eyes whenever I hear people talking about Favreau and Filoni using the World Between Worlds to erase the sequels. People who say things like that aren’t paying attention to reality, and tend to be delusional.

Of course, poorly thought out takes like that aren’t something exclusive to people who dislike the ST. From what I’ve seen, I’ve found the majority of the online Star Wars fandom to be obnoxious and not very bright, regardless of what they think about each movie. This site is the best Star Wars fan community I’ve come across so far.

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Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

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Stardust1138 said:

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dying in the first two trilogies serves the narrative in the subsequent two films in their trilogies.

I believe Han, Luke and Leia’s deaths serve the narrative just as much. Han dying furthers Ben’s arc, as he goes deeper into the dark side after killing his father - taking that extra step - but is also more conflicted. Rey also loses her newfound father figure and it gives her good reason to hate Kylo Ren on a personal level in the next film.

Luke’s death doesn’t serve the narrative as much - he could have survived into the next film. However, there’s nothing edgy about it. Luke’s death is symbolic of him putting his trust in Rey and passing the torch down to the next Jedi; I also find it beautiful that he dies just as he regains the inner peace and heroic purpose he’d been missing for many years.

Leia’s death is the short term cause of Ben finally turning back to the light. He realises how much he is moved by her death, showing him that despite his best efforts, he too is ‘vulnerable’ to love just as Vader was; he also realises how much he feels he should carry on what she fought for and give up his identity as Kylo Ren. This is strongly implied in the scene with Han’s ghost/memory/vision thing.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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jedi_bendu said:

Stardust1138 said:

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dying in the first two trilogies serves the narrative in the subsequent two films in their trilogies.

I believe Han, Luke and Leia’s deaths serve the narrative just as much. Han dying furthers Ben’s arc, as he goes deeper into the dark side after killing his father - taking that extra step - but is also more conflicted. Rey also loses her newfound father figure and it gives her good reason to hate Kylo Ren on a personal level in the next film.

Luke’s death doesn’t serve the narrative as much - he could have survived into the next film. However, there’s nothing edgy about it. Luke’s death is symbolic of him putting his trust in Rey and passing the torch down to the next Jedi; I also find it beautiful that he dies just as he regains the inner peace and heroic purpose he’d been missing for many years.

Leia’s death is the short term cause of Ben finally turning back to the light. He realises how much he is moved by her death, showing him that despite his best efforts, he too is ‘vulnerable’ to love just as Vader was; he also realises how much he feels he should carry on what she fought for and give up his identity as Kylo Ren. This is strongly implied in the scene with Han’s ghost/memory/vision thing.

I think you’re right to an extent but it’s all surface level due to the subsequent progressions of the narrative.

Han - I only find it to be once in the narrative that Kylo/Ben is confronted with his actions. However as soon as it’s said he deflects and puts it back on Rey and her need for validation and on her abandonment issues. We are told he has too much of his father’s heart. We are told that he thinks about him and that he’ll always be with him but we never actually see these things while he’s still posing as Kylo Ren. Maybe Han’s dice conveys thinking about him but I fail to see the other two points. The dice also only appear after his confrontation with Luke.

Luke - Absolutely and I agree as within The Last Jedi itself Luke does these things, and I’d even say he inspires hope for the galaxy as we see with the kids at the end but what comes after is a reset. Leia is now the Jedi Master teaching Rey. Rey never restores the Jedi Order on screen but instead she adopts herself into the Skywalker family. It isn’t Luke that inspired the allies to come together for the battle on Exegol but Lando.

Leia - I again agree in part but there’s no substantial payoff to her sacrifice as ultimately he dies. I thought that was only to pass if Leia didn’t stop her Jedi path? He may have helped rescue Rey from the Knights of Ren and even Force Healed her but he played no part in defeating Palpatine. He had no significant impact on the story after he’s redeemed beyond saving Rey.

So yes, I think at the time they do have some kind of impact on the narrative but as the story goes along they don’t come up again or they’re glossed over. Edgy probably was the wrong choice of wording. I meant it more in the need to have death for the sake of it. George never did that except really with the Death Star and Order 66 but that was because of their purposes in serving the story.

To continue with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Qui-Gon - He was the father figure Anakin needed. Obi-Wan wasn’t ready for the trials of being his master and father figure. He saw Anakin as more like a little brother. Nobody except for Qui-Gon knew what to do with Anakin and Palpatine exploited it.

Obi-Wan - He guided Luke to Dagobah to train with Yoda and he helped push Luke towards confronting his father and Palpatine.

Their deaths had an impact on the character(s).

By comparison again.

Han - Rey remained unchanged by the death of Han apart from the instances where she confronted Ben and brief time she believed he couldn’t be turned back to the Light. Finn didn’t talk about him once after The Force Awakens. Poe didn’t mention him at all.

Luke - Rey mentions him to Leia at the and of The Last Jedi but afterwards only gives him a moment’s thought in relation to the plot device of the Wayfinders. She also confides in him on the island. So it is a slight improvement. However Finn doesn’t mention Luke at all. Poe doesn’t either.

Leia - Rey doesn’t mention her at all except in relation to Leia’s lightsaber Luke gifts her. Finn and Poe mourn for a moment with Chewie but it’s quick to move onto the next story point.

Shouldn’t the central hero(es) we’re supposed to care about be impacted by the passings of their mentors?

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Omni said:

Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

Strongly diasgree. What she said may have been really stupid but it wasn’t dangerous, and I’ve had with this cancel culture.

Also, no, Obi-Wan dying did not advance the plot.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Omni said:

Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

Strongly diasgree. What she said may have been really stupid but it wasn’t dangerous, and I’ve had with this cancel culture.

It was very dangerous. Any attempt to spread misinformation at this time should be seen as dangerous. It’s much bigger than just “cancel culture.”

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Also, no, Obi-Wan dying did not advance the plot.

He’d have nothing to do on Yavin IV except sit around and watch. He would have served no purpose. Dying he was able to guide Luke into trusting himself and the Force in not needing his targeting computer to destroy the Death Star. In Empire he guided Luke to finding Yoda and advised him against confronting Darth Vader as he wasn’t ready. In Jedi he helped Luke see Yoda would always be with him and that he must confront his father again or Palpatine would win.

His death advanced the plot and served as character development for Luke.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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With regard to the Marcia Lucas thing, I’d say that no-one actually ‘gets’ Star Wars and that includes its creator. Lucas was famously ‘30% happy’ with the first film while we as fans were an obvious 100%. So arguably from the beginning Lucas himself didn’t get it. I’m not saying this to diss George, I’m just saying the whole thing is deeply subjective. I myself think Gary Kurtz is the one who ‘got’ it - but his vision for RoTJ and beyond rankles a lot of people.

Back to the ST, while I have my issues with TLJ I think Luke’s death (and the manner of his death) was one of the greatest moments in the saga.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Omni said:

Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

Strongly diasgree. What she said may have been really stupid but it wasn’t dangerous, and I’ve had with this cancel culture.

It’s not like she was fired because Disney didn’t like what she was saying, Lucasfilm chose not to re-hire her after her contract ran out because her transphobia made the lead actor not want to work with her.

Death of the Author

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Last Jedi i find to be the most interesting, challenging and while not what i wanted it is still a work of art.

Johnson tried to follow the legacy and weave his own myth, Last Jedi feels like a real movie he gave his best and failed in places and succeeded in others.

I have respect for Rian as an artist i have none for JJ. Mystery boxes, loosely strung together cool scenes and slipshod pacing and poor exposition, quick cutting editing, cookie cutter junk. He did it with the Star Trek movies and he did it with Star Wars. I hope someday he matures as a filmmaker and does something that is original. My experience with a JJ movie is you enjoy yourself for 2 hours if you shut your brain off. He brings thrills but nothing that lasts beyond the credits. Its like Junk food movies i guess.

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I think Abrams should stick to being a producer.

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“Why The First Order Didn’t Blow Up Coruscant in The Force Awakens”:
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-coruscant-force-awakens-republic-capitol-explained

I think it would have been a better to go with Bad Robot’s idea for Coruscant to have been blown up in The Force Awakens. It would have been more of a surprise for the story, something with more weight and resonance to it than the unfamiliar Hosnian Prime planet serving as the Capital. A planet we have no emotion or connection to.
Maybe using such an idea for the viewer watching it back in 2015 that anything or anyone could be blown up or killed, and that being a better start to the Sequel Trilogy. A more “edgier” and risky start? Though easy to say in hindsight.

Did any fan edits attempt to make Coruscant the planet destroyed in TFA?

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I agree that there’s far more investment in Coruscant than there is Hosnian Prime, but I think that with the finished cut of the movie, if you swap Hosnian Prime for Coruscant, it’s a bad decision precisely for that reason. People would have been mad that a planet they’ve been familiar with for years got like 10 seconds of screen time, then destroyed. I think it would have felt almost like a petty dismissal of Coruscant because it’s iconography from the PT.

Destroying Coruscant would have been fine if we’d seen more of it under New Republic rule in the movie first.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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Watching the Sequel Trilogy for the first time was a very unique experience for me, because it was the first time I saw a Star Wars movie in the theatre that left me feeling completely apathetic (particularly after TLJ). I mean, I’m certainly no fan of the Prequels, but I recall back in 1999 that I was at least extremely enthusiastic and hyped for Episodes 1, 2 and especially 3 as they were released in theatres.

It’s possible I’m just getting older and losing interest in Star Wars in general, but I find myself eager to catch the next Mandalorian episode whenever it comes out. But something about the Sequels left me feeling completely empty and apathetic.

There’s a lot of stuff I don’t like about the Sequels, but I think the biggest issue for me is that TFA was basically a soft reboot. It did not actually function as a proper sequel. There was no “New Republic” (or not one that mattered anyway) - just another Galactic Empire vs. Rebellion for some reason. (Yes, I understand the First Order started out as a Remnant state, and the Resistance was some sort of paramilitary, blah blah whatever, as explained in some stupid book I will never read.)

However, at the same time, there were many compelling elements in TFA: I loved the chemistry between Finn and Poe in the opening escape sequence, for example. I loved seeing a “day in the life” of Rey, similar to how we saw Luke’s daily life in ANH. Back in 2015, having ACTUAL chemistry between the main characters was a breath of fresh air, after 3 mostly lifeless Prequels. The idea of this new Dark-side order called the “Knights of Ren” sounded both awesome and original. These details made me really WANT to like TFA at first, so I made excuses for its obvious shortcomings. I figured the “Resistance” was just a temporary contrivance to give us a Rebels vs Empire story, just for Episode 7, since Disney wanted to play it safe at first and ease us back into the “old school” Star Wars aesthetic after the sterile Prequels. Starkiller Base blew up the New Republic capital, but I initially assumed the New Republic itself still existed as a major Galactic power that would play a large role in the upcoming films.

And then TLJ happened, and the first words in the opening crawl were “The First Order reigns”. That simple declaration pretty much squashed any possible hope I had left of caring about these movies. The Sequels were doubling down on the Rebellion vs. Empire schtick. And so it became pretty much impossible for me to care about a Trilogy that basically erases all the accomplishments and plot developments of the OT.

Then finally Rise of Skywalker came out. At this point I just didn’t care, and this was the first Star Wars movie I didn’t see in the theatre. (I saw all 3 OT Special Editions and all 3 Prequels in the theatre.) Eventually, I saw Rise of Skywalker on streaming, and discovered it was basically a Star Wars PARODY. (Somehow Palpatine returned, and now every Star Destroyer is a Death Star! Nothing matters anymore! Whatever! Check out that Ewok at the end!) They say JJ Abrams directed Rise of Skywalker, but it may as well have been Mel Brooks.

In retrospect, it really all goes back to TFA. Disney’s decision to create a “soft reboot”, rather than something that naturally builds upon the OT, set the entire Trilogy on a course towards oblivion. I can at least respect that TLJ seemingly TRIED to do something somewhat original, but given the premise it was just so difficult for me to actually care. So a new Empire struck back, and the Rebels are on the run again, and for some reason Luke is acting like a dick this time.

I just could never really get over this decision to essentially retell the OT storyline, instead of building on what came before. I mean, I didn’t expect something like a faithful adaptation of the Thrawn trilogy, but I at least thought we’d get a story about the New Republic and Luke’s new Jedi Order. But no… all of that was destroyed offscreen or whatever, and we’re back to ANH 2.0. It just makes it impossible for me to care about these sequels.

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^^^ Bro I completely agree.

I too am not a fan of the sequels for the most part based on your comment. (DISCLAIMER: If you enjoy the movies in full, in part, etc. … that’s great and I am happy for you and we all can enjoy and dislike whatever in a civil way! I wish I could like them, but I can’t … but don’t let it diminish your joy!)

There were some good ideas in them, but the lack of direction as well as being a reboot of the OT … it basically meant what happened in the OT different matter since everything regressed back to it. The movies should have been a progression of the story from the OT … not a retelling.

Instead of the empire v rebels again … could have been an outside force/species/etc. coming from the unknown reason versus the New Republic. The PT was about losing freedom, the OT about winning it back, the ST could have been maintaining it … you know, learning lessons from both the PT and ST.

What could have been …

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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Yesterday I read an article in The Guardian in which the author criticised the fact that the Star Wars franchise under Disney is nothing but callback after callback.

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Not sure if I’ve posted on this thread yet but in case I haven’t:

I think TFA kneecapped everything with its nostalgia, mystery boxes, shitty worldbuilding, etc.

I’ve grown to really like TLJ, but I always prefer to watch that official silent movie version over the real thing. I like Rian’s “high-brow” style of dialogue, but I don’t think it fits within Star Wars (or at least not this “corner” of it).

TRoS only works for me when I pretend the other two don’t exist and that it’s some sorta self-contained epilogue movie to the OT, and even then it still has problems. I guess you can also try to pretend like it’s a b-movie/ Saturday morning cartoon.

Not sure how I’d rank them, at this point (same can be said for any of the films now, really). Overall I consider it on-par with the PT (they have opposite problems from one another).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Budu1ux09Rs

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Q: What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy?

A: I’m trying not to, kid.

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Unlike a lot of people, I was very disappointed in TFA. It had two great points. Great character introductions and some really great scenes, but there really wasn’t much of a story there. People compare it to the 1977 original, but the original was a self contained story with a solid end. TFA felt incomplete and open ended. Especially when the tacked on Rey meeting Luke to the end. So I don’t consider it an echo of ANH in the slightest. It failed some basic film making tasks and for me it is the worst of the saga films.

I think the trilogy redeemed itself with TLJ and rose to the occasion with TROS. Those two films for me are the best saga films since ROTJ. For both of those films, I was glued to the screen and mesmerized in my first viewing. Not many films can do that so I consider them very well made.

With the way the saga developed, I can deal with TFA. It has flaws, but it is a solid introduction to the characters. It is like a prologue to the following 2 parter.

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I wish the films weren’t so rushed and they had more time to develop the screenplays. I like Rey, Poe and Finn, and Rose but the characters could have had more depth to them. Finn in particular the whole plot with him being a former Stormtrooper and force sensitive just seemed to be mentioned in ROS but nothing was done with it.

Rose is basically cut out of the film for no reason in ROS. A lot of the more interesting threads from Last Jedi weren’t followed through on as if ROS was a sequel to Force Awakens in a duology. Kylo reforged mask is like JJ saying i’m undoing everything you did Rian.

And honestly the new characters seem more like cliche archetypes/ redoes of some of the OT heroes. Something new needed to be added other than nostalgia and the familiar.

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TFA had the easier job of setting up the story of the ST, and made what I consider a bad call in recreating the plot mechanics of the original film(s) of rebels vs empire. It deliberately chose not to build on the story as it had developed so far but to regress and recreate. I’m not interested in blaming specific people, so I personify the film when doing so because I don’t know if these decisions were mandated from on high or JJ’s own insistence. TFA works pretty good at executing this unfortunate decision and introduces a colorful cast of characters in a fun ride. You’re all right with the lack of a solid ending because you understand it’s part one of three. TFA bears its own flaws well enough, but leeches somewhat on what would follow and cannot stand on its own.

TLJ actually has some kind of a central idea, that idea is just kind of sophomoric. TLJ smells the above about its predecessor and wants to correct it before it’s too late. It does so respectfully, taking the events and story so far seriously even as it changes our view of them. It’s a critique of TFA and a dare for IX to be great.

IX failed that dare altogether. TLJ said, “I dare you to do better” without knowing it would be the TFA crew the message would be sent to. TROS was written on the bus to school and the administrators weren’t willing to give it more time. So, we got a bullshit story of “nuh-uh, Snoke didn’t really die, he was just Palpatine all along.” TROS is that kid who stubbornly insists he is winning a playground game and is the worst at turn-based storytelling games. I don’t have many good things to say about TROS. It doesn’t seem to say much of anything, at least when you exclude things the OT already said. There’s no new light cast on anything and nothing to go home thinking about that ROTJ didn’t do much better. It’s a shame for the entire Star Wars saga to end on such a note. I laughed through my first viewing because otherwise I’d just feel embarrassed and sad. It’s enough to hope for a 10-12 trilogy someday just to have another chance at doing what 7-9 ought to have done. Just down the road enough for the chance that enough turnover would let it be fresh.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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Based on J.J. Abrams’ filmography, I would say such regression was all him, because frankly all the movies he directed are essentially fan films backed up by major studios.

Seriously, Abrams should stick to being a producer, which is where he really shines.