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What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy? - a general discussion thread — Page 5

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I’d say that’s very likely as Bob Iger was involved in the decision to kill off Han.

“Disney’s CEO, Bob Iger, said he was consulted by Lucasfilm head Kathleen Kennedy and director J.J. Abrams about the decision to kill Han Solo before Star Wars: The Force Awakens was made.”

“We had a big debate about Han Solo,” Iger said. “Should he die or not? It was a decision made by Kennedy and Abrams, but I got involved.”

https://www.polygon.com/2017/10/4/16418218/star-wars-han-solo-bob-iger-disney

I vaguely recall Harrison Ford also saying Han would die in George’s Episode VII. George himself said Luke would die in his Episode IX after rebuilding the Jedi Order and that Leia would still be alive and elected Supreme Chancellor. I think it would’ve played out differently than what we got as context would be vastly different. George didn’t just kill characters off to be edgy. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dying in the first two trilogies serves the narrative in the subsequent two films in their trilogies. In what we got Han and Luke dying has no weight as they’re glossed over and don’t serve any true narrative purposes.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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SparkySywer said:

oojason said:

Servii said:

It’s important to understand that, when it comes to liking or disliking a fictional space movie, morality has no bearing on a person’s opinion. Whether or not you like a space adventure movie says nothing about you as a human being, because it’s just a movie.

I remember after TLJ came out, and for the next couple years, there was a massive wave of articles by journalists that tried to either trivialize or vilify criticizers of the film. “It’s just Russian bots.” “It’s just a small group of racist trolls online.” “They’re not real fans, anyway. They’re just manbabies who don’t understand the true meaning of Star Wars.” I heard all of these repeatedly from journalists, with similar sentiments even being repeated by Lucasfilm employees. Of course, antagonizing your own customers is never a good idea, no matter how little you care about them. But the whole thing was so bizarre, I still can’t fully wrap my head around it.

That was because it was true (the part about Russian bots, trolls spammers - the racists, sexists and homophobes - we even had numbers of them on here). There is a massive disconnect between criticising and outing these fuckwits - and ‘antagonizing your own customers’, as you claim.

This is true, but it’s at least worth mentioning that there’s a vocal minority of trigger-happy ST fans who’ll happily lump valid criticism in with bad faith actors.

Definitely. I’m kind of guilty of that myself, if only as a defense mechanism when interacting with people online. I see dislike of the sequels as a red flag about certain attitudes that needs to be disproven by the disliking party. If they start ranting about Gina Carano’s firing, a “Lucasfilm civil war,” or even how there will be a “retcon of the sequels through the World Between Worlds,” then I feel the urge to disengage.

That’s a flaw on my part.

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If they start ranting about Gina Carano’s firing, a “Lucasfilm civil war,” or even how there will be a “retcon of the sequels through the World Between Worlds,” then I feel the urge to disengage.

That’s a flaw on my part.

No, that’s fair. I roll my eyes whenever I hear people talking about Favreau and Filoni using the World Between Worlds to erase the sequels. People who say things like that aren’t paying attention to reality, and tend to be delusional.

Of course, poorly thought out takes like that aren’t something exclusive to people who dislike the ST. From what I’ve seen, I’ve found the majority of the online Star Wars fandom to be obnoxious and not very bright, regardless of what they think about each movie. This site is the best Star Wars fan community I’ve come across so far.

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Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

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Stardust1138 said:

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dying in the first two trilogies serves the narrative in the subsequent two films in their trilogies.

I believe Han, Luke and Leia’s deaths serve the narrative just as much. Han dying furthers Ben’s arc, as he goes deeper into the dark side after killing his father - taking that extra step - but is also more conflicted. Rey also loses her newfound father figure and it gives her good reason to hate Kylo Ren on a personal level in the next film.

Luke’s death doesn’t serve the narrative as much - he could have survived into the next film. However, there’s nothing edgy about it. Luke’s death is symbolic of him putting his trust in Rey and passing the torch down to the next Jedi; I also find it beautiful that he dies just as he regains the inner peace and heroic purpose he’d been missing for many years.

Leia’s death is the short term cause of Ben finally turning back to the light. He realises how much he is moved by her death, showing him that despite his best efforts, he too is ‘vulnerable’ to love just as Vader was; he also realises how much he feels he should carry on what she fought for and give up his identity as Kylo Ren. This is strongly implied in the scene with Han’s ghost/memory/vision thing.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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jedi_bendu said:

Stardust1138 said:

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dying in the first two trilogies serves the narrative in the subsequent two films in their trilogies.

I believe Han, Luke and Leia’s deaths serve the narrative just as much. Han dying furthers Ben’s arc, as he goes deeper into the dark side after killing his father - taking that extra step - but is also more conflicted. Rey also loses her newfound father figure and it gives her good reason to hate Kylo Ren on a personal level in the next film.

Luke’s death doesn’t serve the narrative as much - he could have survived into the next film. However, there’s nothing edgy about it. Luke’s death is symbolic of him putting his trust in Rey and passing the torch down to the next Jedi; I also find it beautiful that he dies just as he regains the inner peace and heroic purpose he’d been missing for many years.

Leia’s death is the short term cause of Ben finally turning back to the light. He realises how much he is moved by her death, showing him that despite his best efforts, he too is ‘vulnerable’ to love just as Vader was; he also realises how much he feels he should carry on what she fought for and give up his identity as Kylo Ren. This is strongly implied in the scene with Han’s ghost/memory/vision thing.

I think you’re right to an extent but it’s all surface level due to the subsequent progressions of the narrative.

Han - I only find it to be once in the narrative that Kylo/Ben is confronted with his actions. However as soon as it’s said he deflects and puts it back on Rey and her need for validation and on her abandonment issues. We are told he has too much of his father’s heart. We are told that he thinks about him and that he’ll always be with him but we never actually see these things while he’s still posing as Kylo Ren. Maybe Han’s dice conveys thinking about him but I fail to see the other two points. The dice also only appear after his confrontation with Luke.

Luke - Absolutely and I agree. Within The Last Jedi itself Luke does these things and I’d even say he inspires hope for the galaxy as we see with the kids at the end but what comes after is a reset. Leia is now the Jedi Master teaching Rey. Rey never restores the Jedi Order on screen but instead she adopts herself into the Skywalker family. It isn’t Luke that inspired the allies to come together for the battle on Exegol but Lando.

Leia - I again agree in part but there’s no substantial payoff to her sacrifice as ultimately he dies. I thought that was only to pass if Leia didn’t stop her Jedi path? He may have helped rescue Rey from the Knights of Ren and even Force Healed her but he played no part in defeating Palpatine. He had no significant impact on the story after he’s redeemed beyond saving Rey.

So yes, I think at the time they do have some kind of impact on the narrative but as the story goes along they don’t come up again or they’re glossed over. Edgy probably was the wrong choice of wording. I meant it more in the need to have death for the sake of it. George never did that except really with the Death Star and Order 66 but that was because of their purposes in serving the story.

To continue with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Qui-Gon - He was the father figure Anakin needed. Obi-Wan wasn’t ready for the trials of being his master and father figure. He saw Anakin as more like a little brother. Nobody except for Qui-Gon knew what to do with Anakin and Palpatine exploited it.

Obi-Wan - He guided Luke to Dagobah to train with Yoda and he helped push Luke towards confronting his father and Palpatine.

Their deaths had an impact on the character(s).

By comparison again.

Han - Rey remained unchanged by the death of Han apart from the instances where she confronted Ben and believed he couldn’t be turned back to the Light. Finn didn’t talk about him once after The Force Awakens. Poe didn’t mention him at all.

Luke - Rey mentions him to Leia at the snd of The Last Jedi but afterwards only gives him a moment’s thought in relation to the plot device of the Wayfinders. She also confides in him on the island. So it is a slight improvement. However Finn doesn’t mention Luke at all. Poe doesn’t either.

Leia - Rey doesn’t mention her at all except in relation to Leia’s lightsaber Luke gifts her. Finn and Poe mourn for a moment with Chewie but it’s quick to move onto the next story point.

Shouldn’t the central hero(es) we’re supposed to care about be impacted by the passings of their mentors?

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Omni said:

Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

Strongly diasgree. What she said may have been really stupid but it wasn’t dangerous, and I’ve had with this cancel culture.

Also, no, Obi-Wan dying did not advance the plot.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Omni said:

Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

Strongly diasgree. What she said may have been really stupid but it wasn’t dangerous, and I’ve had with this cancel culture.

It was very dangerous. Any attempt to spread misinformation at this time should be seen as dangerous. It’s much bigger than just “cancel culture.”

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Also, no, Obi-Wan dying did not advance the plot.

He’d have nothing to do on Yavin IV except sit around and watch. He would have served no purpose. Dying he was able to guide Luke into trusting himself and the Force in not needing his targeting computer to destroy the Death Star. In Empire he guided Luke to finding Yoda and advised him against confronting Darth Vader as he wasn’t ready. In Jedi he helped Luke see Yoda would always be with him and that he must confront his father again or Palpatine would win.

His death advanced the plot and served as character development for Luke.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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With regard to the Marcia Lucas thing, I’d say that no-one actually ‘gets’ Star Wars and that includes its creator. Lucas was famously ‘30% happy’ with the first film while we as fans were an obvious 100%. So arguably from the beginning Lucas himself didn’t get it. I’m not saying this to diss George, I’m just saying the whole thing is deeply subjective. I myself think Gary Kurtz is the one who ‘got’ it - but his vision for RoTJ and beyond rankles a lot of people.

Back to the ST, while I have my issues with TLJ I think Luke’s death (and the manner of his death) was one of the greatest moments in the saga.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Omni said:

Yeah, not a flaw at all. Complaining about Carano’s firing should be a major red flag.

Strongly diasgree. What she said may have been really stupid but it wasn’t dangerous, and I’ve had with this cancel culture.

It’s not like she was fired because Disney didn’t like what she was saying, Lucasfilm chose not to re-hire her after her contract ran out because her transphobia made the lead actor not want to work with her.

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