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What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy? - a general discussion thread — Page 10

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I love TLJ, and find it to be the only only worthwhile entry in the ST, however I sometimes feel like I have to be discreet about it, because there seems to be a collective mentality of “YOU’RE WRONG FOR LIKING TLJ!”

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 (Edited)

So, I did a little bit of digging, because I distinctly remember Rian Johnson saying a lot of inflammatory stuff back in 2018 and getting mired in Twitter arguments at the time. It does look like he deleted quite a bit, so I had to do some looking on some more unsavory clickbait sites.

I found this article talking about it:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2018/06/13/rian-johnson-and-john-boyega-attack-star-wars-fans-and-consumers-at-their-own-risk/

I don’t think any of Rian’s Tweets shown here are particularly bad, but the fact that this article even got published is a reminder of how well known Rian’s back-and-forth with fans was at the time. Looking back, I can sympathize with him, and I can see he was getting understandably frustrated dealing with angry people on social media. And to his credit, he did apologize afterwards for making fun of Mike Zeroh:

https://mobile.twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1036812353990324224

But it was still a mistake of him to stoop to insults, even if the people he was insulting did often deserve it. And while he claims his insults were only directed toward people who harassed those involved in the movie, he really seemed to fall into the trap of conflating a wide range of people as all being “haters” and “trolls.” I remember a lot of the Lucasfilm writers “clapping back” at “toxic fans” on Twitter back in 2018. It was always treated as justified because they were “owning” the “trolls” who supposedly deserved it. But their definition of “troll” seemed to be pretty wide, at times.

Of course, I don’t know how you justify something like this:

pic.twitter.com/FAr1g1CQQ6

And Rian was never nearly as bad as Chuck Wendig, whom I was reminded of by this other article:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2018/06/06/star-wars-author-chuck-wendig-breaks-down-after-calling-star-wars-fans-white-supremacists/#utm_source=boundingintocomics.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=bic&utm_term=internal

Just really, really unhinged seeming. Some of his later Tweets were worse than this, and he ended up getting really vitriolic.

And there’s also some of Pablo Hidalgo’s Twitter antics, like making fun of StarWarsTheory. But, I’m getting off topic, so I’ll leave it at that. The point is, Lucasfilm’s social media presence in general has been needlessly aggressive and fractious the past few years. And that’s done far more to drive me away from Star Wars than the quality of the franchise itself has.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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Just so you know, Bounding Into Comics is insanely biased towards the Gamergate “white male nerd rage” side of things, with tons of fake stories about Kathleen Kennedy being fired from Lucasfilm and other fanboy wish fulfillment fantasies. So I would take their spin on events with a massive grain of salt.

In general, I understand why Rian and others involved with TLJ would want to fight back against the absurd spam of personal attacks and death threats aimed at them by losers on the internet. But their reactions were still a bit unprofessional, especially when they ended up associating completely normal TLJ critics with the loser trolls. It feels like the recent controversy with Will Smith slapping Chris Rock: It’s normal to be offended by a poor-taste attack against something personal to you, but responding with an even bigger attack against the attacker doesn’t make you look good.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

Just so you know, Bounding Into Comics is insanely biased towards the Gamergate “white male nerd rage” side of things, with tons of fake stories about Kathleen Kennedy being fired from Lucasfilm and other fanboy wish fulfillment fantasies. So I would take their spin on events with a massive grain of salt.

That’s the awful thing - some can’t dislike TLJ without having to clarify “I’m not one of those types.” TLJ’s reputation has become so entangled in culture war BS by TFM types that it’s hard for critics of the movie to speak out without being compared to that Gamergate-y crowd. Heck, I’ve seen TFM-y things here complaining about “wokeness” and other BS. So I just filter out their stuff and hope mods warn them before things get out of hand, since this is one of the nicer venues to talk about SW. It’s not as poorly moderated as r/StarWars or as saccharine as r/StarWarsCantina and it’s certainly not as trashy as Facebook and Twitter pages.

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henzINNIT said:

I would also like to see more evidence of RJ ‘screaming’ and his ‘tantrums’ because the above looks remarkably calm and playful in the face of the absolute bile we all know he received then and probably still receives.

The pic doesn’t provide proper context, nor even the start of that particular exchange. Almost as if it was selected specifically to make him look as bad as possible. And you’d only be shocked and disgusted by the ‘deek’ references if you were to assume he made them unprompted, which is obviously not the case. You don’t have to search through the tweets to know he’ll be playing with terms he was submerged in at the time.

I completely agree with this. With Darth Retcon too when he says:

Darth Retcon said:

It is just me questioning whether there was anything actually online from RJ much worse than that twitter thread you posted? This is just because of the microscope he was under from a section of fandom at the time, who were looking for anything online to further undermine him or throw his way. If there was anything found at the time it shouldn’t be too difficult to find now as it would be still up on the TFM or tabloid style sites and platforms. Or posts that are still up to see on Rian Johnson’s twitter.

If such twitter posts do exist as claimed, they would be very well known, and probably still used to beat Rian Johnson or TLJ over the head with even today. Nobody would need to dig through 4chan or dead forums to find them.

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I won’t weigh in on the different classes of like or don’t like of TLJ - because I don’t care, not even remotely. I saw the first two sequels and thought they were bad. I didn’t bother with the third. Of those two, I thought TlJ was particularly bad. It was all over the place with the slow speed chase, the casino sidetrack, and with Luke being some sort of hermit kook.

I’ll say this though: I don’t care. It’s a movie in a very convoluted franchise with a harshly divided fan base. I watch what I like, I ignore what I don’t. I don’t give so much as a passing thought. Truth be told, I haven’t cared for much since 1977. One or two recent offerings, but not worth mentioning here.

Regarding Rian’s tweets and social media posts when he was criticized; Incredibly unprofessional. When you set out to make a sequel in a loved franchise and you openly admit you’re going to turn the franchise and the fans on their ears, be ready for some blowback and be ready for it to be harsh. All that maaaahh deeeeeeek!!! bullshit is just weird and childish. WTF, Rian?

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Honestly, the Sequel Trilogy is simultaneously to me a great series of films… and some of the most frustrating. When we first heard Disney had purchased Lucasfilm and that we’d be getting the Sequel Trilogy, I was cautiously optimistic but mostly skeptical about it. I personally really did not like the Prequel Trilogy, a lot of the old EU content I tried to get into when it wasn’t a fun game I thought was some of the most cheesy, fan-appeasement riddled nonsense that was loaded with hackneyed fanfic ideas and edgelord pandering, I was more certain I was gonna walk out of Episode VII hating every aspect of it.

Then The Force Awakens came out… and I proceeded to go to the theater six more times after that initial viewing to watch it. Is TFA a perfect film? No. Clearly not. Was it ever gonna live up to the hype? Considering the Sequel Trilogy had been speculated about for years and years and in that time Star Wars itself (More specifically the OT.) had been propped up to being this ultra perfect godly space fantasy series that has the magical power to please everyone? Nothing short of curing hunger across the universe, granting everybody immortality and making the Force real would’ve satisfied. What it was though was the perfect film for that time. Considering it had been years since we saw a new live-action Star Wars movie in theaters and all the skepticism that was around for this new era? It was the right call to play things a little safe, to give us a more classic style Star Wars movie to sort of ease us into this new era we were heading into. Plus I really didn’t mind considering as a fan who had tried out many novels, comics and games? Star Wars has run the gamut of so many story types and also when I went into the theaters knowing the insane expectations this movie garnered? I just wanted something that could entertain and I wound up loving it.

I adored a lot of the new characters, Poe Dameron had a ton of personality and Oscar Issac worked his butt off to make him just so likable, the new droid BB-8 was adorable and in many ways felt like a natural evolution of how the astromechs could evolve with later models. Finn was a great character to see both with his story of being a Stormtrooper who leaves the First Order and just all his interactions with everyone and most especially his friendship with Poe, Rey is a badass and her being the one the Force awoke in was a genuinely well done surprise that had some great set-up for what we could see in the following episode and then there’s the villains such as Kylo Ren who I’m just going to state is my favorite new Star Wars character. When the trailers showed him off? I genuinely was expecting a Vader clone and while that would’ve been fine in terms of a threat? Given that we’ve seen villains in Star Wars before that basically are just there to be a cool bad guy in dark robes that do cool bad guy things? I wasn’t really keen on us getting another with Kylo but then the movie pulls such an interesting trick with him that is acted so well by Adam Driver. We see a villain who actively is struggling with being called to the Light Side, a villain who’s vulnerable and human and has real issues. Even during one of his most pivotal moments when he kills his father, we see how vulnerable he is and the way it’s done in the film works so well with us getting the intimidating force of nature first but we get glimpses over time of the man that resides behind the mask before finally getting a total reveal and while yes he loses his major duel with Rey? Considering he did so with a blaster wound in his side and a strike to his shoulder in the middle of the freezing cold after chasing Rey and Finn down and he really only lost because Rey remembered Maz’s words and let the Force guide her movements while he was trying to just take her to Snoke makes him a badass to me.

The old characters were also used very well. Han and Leia didn’t just feel like the two were plucked from the OT and tossed in with no consideration for either their age or what the story called for, they believably were Han and Leia after thirty years of development and circumstances. They didn’t overshadow the new cast, they served their role well as figures who passed the torch down to the next generation. I felt in general this was the most respect I had seen shown to these characters in a good while and as someone who was deathly scared of seeing them overuse the old crew for a story that isn’t really theirs anymore? I was very relieved to see that not happen and to go with that came one of TFA’s biggest and often ignored strengths. Yes it’s a very familiar movie with a plot skeleton that’s similar to what came before but it uses that to focus on mostly new content. Think about it, J.J. Abrams is one of the biggest self-admitted Star Wars fans on this planet. He had even stated when he got this job that while he worked on the Star Trek movies he tried his best to get into it but while he only appreciated it? He loved Star Wars and specifically the OT. He could’ve easily turned in a movie continuing the adventures of Han, Luke and Leia in a much more safe fashion that puts all the attention on the old but he didn’t do that. To begin this story, he instead made a film that transitioned us from the old and into the new and he did so with a great deal of care.

The film’s a thrill ride with its brisk pacing. Things keep moving but it never feels like we’re rushing at any point in time. The music is excellent as always from John Williams and while it’s a little more subdued than what maybe say the prequels had? The compositions are still top-notch. The action was kinetic and fun with it striking that balance between being grounded and bombastic. It brought back a lot of the mysticism from the OT and effectively made the Force interesting again. The dialogue is fun. It’s witty, it has passion and emotion and while some of the lines one could argue are a little too modern? I’d argue that I’m grateful for that because it results in Star Wars characters sounding like people and it shows that the filmmakers are willing to not be so stubborn as to maintain certain aspects just because they were in older films. This movie is just a ton of fun and when it finally ended that first watchthrough? I openly clapped and left the theater with an ear-to-ear smile.

Now yes it is not perfect. Some of the dialogue is a little awkward, I definitely would’ve preferred a more original story for Episode VII, Poe originally being written to die in the script is way too obvious in the movie and because of what the trailers showed before it meant his return didn’t have the impact they were going for and Captain Phasma is wasted in both this and the next movie which is a shame because just her look alone is so cool. But the thing is Star Wars has never been perfect, there is no such thing as a perfect movie and like I said, I don’t think VII was ever gonna appeal to everyone because we’re all coming into this with our own ideas of what Star Wars should be and this is a trilogy we’ve speculated about for so long that our preconceptions and expectations can sometimes override our thoughts. Not only that but those issues take away from my enjoyment of this movie. TFA is excellent comfort food and in some ways better than it. It’s so excellent in fact… it left me absolutely terrified for the next movie because that one was gonna have to do something big. The kid gloves had to come off and we had to see what new content this trilogy could bring to the table and with that came The Last Jedi.

And… The Last Jedi is my second-favorite Star Wars movie right behind The Empire Strikes Back. I am not sorry for that, I have heard every single possible criticism that has been levied at this movie, even a couple came up as I walked out of the theater that first time through and I just heartily disagree. I came into TLJ with again, no expectations and a lot of fear that this was gonna suck and came out of it pleasantly surprised in more ways than one. The characters and their arcs were moved along in very believable ways, I thought the film was very smartly written and that it introduced so many layers and nuances that I was not expecting to see, it looks gorgeous, sounds wonderful and it subverts expectations in ways that I thought was very well done, specifically props have to go to the handling of Luke which I know is controversial but to me? The levels of nuance that are present from what Luke’s reasoning for his exile is to the lesson he learns which is a lesson he struggled with even in ROTJ when coupled with Mark Hamill’s amazing acting makes for a take on this character that felt far truer to his character than I ever expected to see. Once again, this didn’t feel like Luke just turned into a spectacular master for the sake of appeasing people, this felt like a Luke that had been through thirty years of hardship and development and the back-and-forth between him and Rey was great. I also really liked Finn’s adventure with Rose and what that meant for his character arc. Canto Bight could’ve done with some trimming but for the most part it was fun to me. I really enjoyed Poe’s arc and if the criticisms levied at the movie have done at least something for me? It’s that every time I rewatch this movie I notice new things like the subtle bits of language, the intonation of certain lines and how scenes are cut together and how they really work in tandem with the writing to make these plots as clear as possible without spelling it out for people.

Then there’s Kylo and I adore what they do with Kylo in this movie. I love how they parallel his and Rey’s stories, I love how they play up his struggles and how they develop his relationship with Rey. I love we got something very different with him. TLJ didn’t just turn him into Darth Vader again through the magic of time-skips, we get to see how these events affected him and how it leads into one of the most shocking moments when he kills Snoke, a character that to be frank had nothing really going for him beyond looking cool in TFA and while that doesn’t mean he couldn’t have been something spectacular? The choice they made is not only bolder? It set the stage for an Episode IX that would’ve been very unique because we have both our hero and villain lost and looking for answers in various places and in the case of Kylo? We don’t have a Vader, we have an unstable broken powder keg who can be terrifying in a completely different way because while Vader was more subdued and calculated? Think about the idea of someone like Kylo being able to raze planets on a whim just because he wants to posture that he is this tough Supreme Leader. One could say that’s embarrassing but you’d be arguing against the guy in a massive warship that can rain green hell from above and can choke you with his mind.

It has problems like TFA I will grant. Phasma is wasted, Leia’s flying scene looks weird due to the framing of it, while Crait is awesome one can argue the movie does go on a little long and not all the humor works. But as a whole? TLJ is incredible. I honestly think had life played out differently and either Carrie Fisher didn’t die and we got Duel of the Fates like we were supposed to or TROS was delayed to tighten things up? I think the Sequel Trilogy would’ve been looked upon much more fondly.

But that didn’t happen. Unfortunately, Carrie Fisher passed away and I feel like this affected Colin Trevorrow’s ability to make an Episode IX we’d be happy with and they decided to rush the production to meet that Christmas deadline and as a result? We got The Rise of Skywalker, a very frustrating movie. Notice I did not say bad, just frustrating. You ask me, just looking at this from the basis of this being the story they told? They told it well enough and I think there’s a lot of qualities people often brush aside and as a movie it’s fun to watch. As the end to this trilogy though and especially as the end to what is now a nine-part saga? This movie is deeply flawed and quite frankly is the only film to just feel like fanfiction. The pacing is breakneck like a spice addict who’s panicking about their next fix, characters go through arcs at the drop of a hat and when they’re not doing that they’re merely vessels who exist to progress the plot. It simultaneously feels like J.J. Abrams has seen TLJ and like he hasn’t with how it will go back and forth on whether it wants to build upon its themes or chuck them to the side with the times it properly builds upon it feeling very off and this is all because they were both trying to hit a deadline and also trying foolishly to work Leia in when she should’ve just been either retired or dead. I will continuously argue until the end of the time that TROS’s biggest problem wasn’t that there was no plan. The MCU wasn’t really planned out to begin with and neither was the OT. The biggest problem was circumstances and a lack of time. This film was greatly screwed over by the tragic passing of Carrie Fisher and the schedule it was saddled with which made for a losing combination that guaranteed it was not only going to not live up to any expectations but that being a fan of the ST was gonna become a nightmare.

But when I look at it from that perspective and I think about what the movie did in the face of those odds? I don’t hate it. When this movie does things well? It does them incredibly well and if nothing else the final defeat of Palpatine feels nice and definitive and I’m personally fine with Rey taking the Skywalker name at the end since I like the potential for what that could mean. I also really like the action, acting and music and considering this movie was never gonna live up to the obscenely high expectations it had set for it? I think a landing it stumbled and walked away from is still a decent landing and considering at that time I had seen worse movies and even worse finales? I’m willing to give it somewhat of a pass.

As a whole? The Sequel Trilogy is kind of mixed but ultimately I came out liking all three movies and loving two and you know what? I’m fine with that. I still love this era and I love these characters and I want to see more done with it. I don’t want to see Disney and LF just sweep it under the rug just because it’s so divisive. I mean if that happened with the prequels then I don’t we would’ve gotten half the amazing content that came out of that era. Personally I prefer to look at this as a learning experience, an example of what could work for Star Wars movies and what maybe should be tweaked or removed and considering this has convinced them to take such a big break with Star Wars movies and move it to a two-year waiting period between each film? To me that says they’re listening and you know what? That’s all I ask for.

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Anchorhead said:

Regarding Rian’s tweets and social media posts when he was criticized; Incredibly unprofessional. When you set out to make a sequel in a loved franchise and you openly admit you’re going to turn the franchise and the fans on their ears, be ready for some blowback and be ready for it to be harsh. All that maaaahh deeeeeeek!!! bullshit is just weird and childish. WTF, Rian?

Thing is… he didn’t respond to legitimate criticism like this. There are a good couple of interviews where he has stated that if people don’t like his movies that’s fine. I agree blowback should be expected to an extent… but Rian Johnson was harassed by people. Real talk, if you go onto a director’s Twitter to yell at them how much their movie sucks and how they ruined the franchise? You’re not just some honest critic who is looking to have a conversation about the movie or simply express your opinion? What you are is a rude nerfherder who is getting aggro with a human because they dared to commit the “crime” of making a movie you dislike and you also happen to be maybe comment #50,000. In that case, a director has the right to clapback and poke fun at because that is their account and someone making the choice to get aggro towards said account should expect that the person behind it may have words to fire back with. Harsh criticism is one thing. You say on a public forum TLJ is the worst SW movie and you keep your focus on the work? Okay, that’s fine. Yelling at the director on Twitter is frankly horrid discourse.

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AspiringCreator said:

Anchorhead said:

Regarding Rian’s tweets and social media posts when he was criticized; Incredibly unprofessional. When you set out to make a sequel in a loved franchise and you openly admit you’re going to turn the franchise and the fans on their ears, be ready for some blowback and be ready for it to be harsh. All that maaaahh deeeeeeek!!! bullshit is just weird and childish. WTF, Rian?

Thing is… he didn’t respond to legitimate criticism like this.

This. You can criticize these tweets as unprofessional (and you’d be right), but the narrative going around in the wider fandom that Rian Johnson attacks fans or responds to thoughtful critique with unprofessionalism isn’t true.

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The thing I really don’t get and totally disagree with is that TLJ undoes TFA and TROS undoes TLJ. I don’t see that and I don’t agree with it. What I do see is that TLJ is the middle act and like TESB, nothing seems to go right. We have Kylor Ren and his philosophy dominating the dialog, but in the end, what he had to say was not the message of the film. Countless people around here have claimed that “kill the past” was what Rian Johnson was trying to do when that was Kylo Ren and the Dark Side. What the Dark Side character has to say is never the point of a Star Wars film. Luke in Exile was decided before Rian was hired, or even JJ. Rey had to find a way to bring him back to the galaxy and in the end it took Yoda to do it. What Luke sarcastically said at the start becomes what he does at the end. Instead of killing the past, the movie embraces it to move forward. And I think the most brilliant thing about the ST is bringing Palpatine back. People think this was a last minute change, but I think JJ had this in mind from the beginning. It was pointed out before TLJ came out that musically Rey’s Theme was a variation on Palpatine’s theme. And Snoke’s rise to power was full of questions, until you find out Palpatine was behind him. Another puppet like Count Dooku, but this time a more mailable clone. I think that TLJ’s “anyone can be a Jedi” was not aimed at Rey, but at Finn and countless other. Rey was not a Skywalker and that fits in very well with the message. Her being a Palpatine makes that transition to central hero even more significant. Rather than being at odds, I see the three ST films and building on one another. I was disappointed in TFA, not because it was similar to ANH (something else I disagree with), but because it is a series of beautiful scenes that really didn’t form a full story. The film is charming in its own way, but it fails to have the impact that many other Star Wars films do. JJ was too concerned about his mystery box setups to craft a cohesive story.

I think the parallels to the OT and PT are to be appreciated and enjoyed. Lucas wanted the saga to have poetry and I feel that the ST we got gives it. Some fans complain about Han, Luke, and Leia dying, but that is what happens to the previous generation. That is what the OT does to the PT characters. They all die (except R2-D2, C-3PO, and Chewbacca). And I think many forget the inspirations behind Star Wars. Flash Gordon in 1980 ends with a closeup of Ming’s ring and Ming’s laugh ringing out indicating he isn’t really dead. That is exactly what we get in the ST, just without the foreshadowing. Palpatine is back like so many great villains (such as the Master in Doctor Who). So rather than any part of the ST ruining Star Wars, I feel that JJ and Rian really understood the saga and its roots and honored that with what they created. It has elements of the classic serials, the nearly unkillable villain, classic films, with a bit of comic relief in a glitzy package that pushes the movie making envelope of the time. It really is a better successor to the OT than the PT were.

Not that I expect everyone to agree. Just ponder the ideas I put forward and think about what George created and how it was born and where he expected it to go. Luke and Han were always going to die if Harrison and Mark came back. That was a given. Luke was supposed to die in Ep VII, but they couldn’t work him into the story so his death was moved to the climax of episode VIII and Han dies in VII, like Ben in IV and Qui-gon in I. Poetry, symmetry, myth and legend, part of the hero’s journey.

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And I think the most brilliant thing about the ST is bringing Palpatine back. People think this was a last minute change, but I think JJ had this in mind from the beginning. It was pointed out before TLJ came out that musically Rey’s Theme was a variation on Palpatine’s theme.

I strongly recommend watching this video by a channel that analyzes musical scores:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FstNC8T4LjA

He goes in depth into the details of Rey’s theme, and calling it just a variation of Palpatine’s theme is misleading. When analyzed, Rey’s theme contains traces of the Force theme, the Imperial march, and Palpatine’s theme, and can be harmonized with Yoda’s theme as well as others. The conclusion he reaches in the video is that Rey’s theme was deliberately designed by Williams to be as vague and versatile as possible, because he knew that the writers hadn’t decided on an origin for Rey yet.

Also, Daisy Ridley said in an interview that Rey being a Palpatine was not at all part of the original plan. She actually said there was talk of making Rey a Kenobi.

And keep in mind, the EU already did the whole thing of bringing back Palpatine. And arguably, the EU did it better because it actually accounted for how the heroes were going to prevent Palpatine from returning again in the future. And even then, it was an extremely divisive move at the time. And if the ST writers were really planning early on to bring him back, they would have at least foreshadowed it in some way, however subtly. But they didn’t do that. And on top of that, they didn’t ask Ian McDiarmid to come back as Palpatine until a point in 2018 when the production of TRoS was already well underway. All signs point to Palpatine’s inclusion being a last-minute choice.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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SparkySywer said:

AspiringCreator said:

Anchorhead said:

Regarding Rian’s tweets and social media posts when he was criticized; Incredibly unprofessional. When you set out to make a sequel in a loved franchise and you openly admit you’re going to turn the franchise and the fans on their ears, be ready for some blowback and be ready for it to be harsh. All that maaaahh deeeeeeek!!! bullshit is just weird and childish. WTF, Rian?

Thing is… he didn’t respond to legitimate criticism like this.

This. You can criticize these tweets as unprofessional (and you’d be right), but the narrative going around in the wider fandom that Rian Johnson attacks fans or responds to thoughtful critique with unprofessionalism isn’t true.

Plus I think in general that if you go onto a director’s account and you trash talk them to their face? They have every right to be unprofessional to a degree. Obviously if they tell you to say kill yourself or get personal then that’s not right but if they call you an asshole or mock you? They aren’t the ones at fault, it’s the person that decided it was a good idea to attack them. Directors, writers and film crew are all people so to a degree they have a right to clapback at toxicity and hopefully fans who engage in that behavior will maybe take a moment to stop and reflect on that behavior and realize “Oh… yeah maybe I shouldn’t be like this.”

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Servii said:

And I think the most brilliant thing about the ST is bringing Palpatine back. People think this was a last minute change, but I think JJ had this in mind from the beginning. It was pointed out before TLJ came out that musically Rey’s Theme was a variation on Palpatine’s theme.

But they didn’t do that. And on top of that, they didn’t ask Ian McDiarmid to come back as Palpatine until a point in 2018

It was actually Jan 2019

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SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

And I think the most brilliant thing about the ST is bringing Palpatine back. People think this was a last minute change, but I think JJ had this in mind from the beginning. It was pointed out before TLJ came out that musically Rey’s Theme was a variation on Palpatine’s theme.

But they didn’t do that. And on top of that, they didn’t ask Ian McDiarmid to come back as Palpatine until a point in 2018

It was actually Jan 2019

Wow, that’s worse than I remembered.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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Servii said:

And I think the most brilliant thing about the ST is bringing Palpatine back. People think this was a last minute change, but I think JJ had this in mind from the beginning. It was pointed out before TLJ came out that musically Rey’s Theme was a variation on Palpatine’s theme.

I strongly recommend watching this video by a channel that analyzes musical scores:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FstNC8T4LjA

He goes in depth into the details of Rey’s theme, and calling it just a variation of Palpatine’s theme is misleading. When analyzed, Rey’s theme contains traces of the Force theme, the Imperial march, and Palpatine’s theme, and can be harmonized with Yoda’s theme as well as others. The conclusion he reaches in the video is that Rey’s theme was deliberately designed by Williams to be as vague and versatile as possible, because he knew that the writers hadn’t decided on an origin for Rey yet.

Also, Daisy Ridley said in an interview that Rey being a Palpatine was not at all part of the original plan. She actually said there was talk of making Rey a Kenobi.

And keep in mind, the EU already did the whole thing of bringing back Palpatine. And arguably, the EU did it better because it actually accounted for how the heroes were going to prevent Palpatine from returning again in the future. And even then, it was an extremely divisive move at the time. And if the ST writers were really planning early on to bring him back, they would have at least foreshadowed it in some way, however subtly. But they didn’t do that. And on top of that, they didn’t ask Ian McDiarmid to come back as Palpatine until a point in 2018 when the production of TRoS was already well underway. All signs point to Palpatine’s inclusion being a last-minute choice.

JJ is famous for his mystery box ideas. What I was saying is that it is likely he had in mind bringing Palaptine back as part of that, but he originally didn’t intend to be involved in IX. When he got involved that the idea was there. And considering the schedule, 2018 is not a surprise. That is when we found out Williams was coming back as well. So that timing fits with the general casting of the movie. You write the movie and then cast the actors. I think it is only foreshadowed by Rey’s theme being based (partially as you say) on Palpatine’s theme, but Abrams isn’t big and pre-planning the solultions to his mystery box ideas. Too much time in TV so he leave them open in case someone else is charged with crafting the solution. I’d claim this is another flaw in TFA, not TROS.

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AspiringCreator said:

Honestly, the Sequel Trilogy is simultaneously to me a great series of films… and some of the most frustrating.

I very much enjoyed reading your post, thank you.
 

One thing I think gets overlooked is that the Sequel films did attempt to pay homage to the Original Trilogy, to try and respect it and its legacy. Whereas George wrote so many inconsistencies into the Prequels, contradicting the OT, it felt anything but that. It was as if George was trying to reinvent Star Wars and his “grand plan”, and was quite happy to diminish the OT at the expense of his Prequel Trilogy to try and achieve this.

When I think of some of the issues that the Sequels have, I try and give them a little more of “a pass” just for that. That respect, and that trying to make three films more in keeping with the Originals, in spirit at least. TFA and TLJ are easier to do this for, and TROS is more difficult, as that is one crazy break neck film with far too much happening too fast for anything to sink in. For me, anyway. As you posted, another year to help production for the film to iron out some of its issues would have helped considerably.

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Emre1601 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Honestly, the Sequel Trilogy is simultaneously to me a great series of films… and some of the most frustrating.

I very much enjoyed reading your post, thank you.
 

One thing I think gets overlooked is that the Sequel films did attempt to pay homage to the Original Trilogy, to try and respect it and its legacy. Whereas George wrote so many inconsistencies into the Prequels, contradicting the OT, it felt anything but that. It was as if George was trying to reinvent Star Wars and his “grand plan”, and was quite happy to diminish the OT at the expense of his Prequel Trilogy to try and achieve this.

When I think of some of the issues that the Sequels have, I try and give them a little more of “a pass” just for that. That respect, and that trying to make three films more in keeping with the Originals, in spirit at least. TFA and TLJ are easier to do this for, and TROS is more difficult, as that is one crazy break neck film with far too much happening too fast for anything to sink in. For me, anyway. As you posted, another year to help production for the film to iron out some of its issues would have helped considerably.

I can’t say I agree. For a few reasons, but also for one major reason: the sequel trilogy made it so that the OT is actually the least important, least consequential of the three trilogies. The prequels show us Palpatine’s rise to power. The sequels show us how he’s finally defeated at the hands of his granddaughter. You could actually skip the OT altogether, since it’s the least relevant to the overarching saga story. Ultimately, Luke and his vision of a revived Jedi Order just ended up being the husk from which Rey and her new version of the Jedi would emerge. And the Skywalkers, while still being fairly important, are no longer the central figures driving the saga. They’re secondary to the Palpatines.

Both the prequels and sequels make the mistake of trying to reframe the saga around the new protagonist. You can see that in saga promotional material (and even in things like the startup screen for the new Lego game, which has Rey at the top and center of the group of characters, framing her as the main character of the saga). Part of the problem is that both trilogies are essentially pulling the saga in opposite directions, and as a result, the saga becomes disjointed.

I don’t doubt that the writers of the sequels have a lot of reverence for the OT. I do think they tried to have the new movies respect the old. They just fell into the trap of what I can only describe as reckless storytelling, where key plot points aren’t really thought through for what their implications would be. And there are quite a few inconsistencies between the new films and the OT. I’d say about as many as the prequels created.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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The key difference between the Prequels and Sequels is context. George merely recontextualised the whole story to his intended meanings and what the story meant to him with the Prequels. The Tragedy of Darth Vader. He felt it got lost at the end of Return of the Jedi. I tend to agree with him as many fans have a hard time with fully seeing Anakin and Darth Vader as the same person. The story grew and evolved from what it may have been originally planned as but many core aspects remain from very early drafts. The story took the natural progression route of telling stories as he had lived in the world he created and knew it more than when he was still developing what it could be with say the early drafts of A New Hope that had various outcomes. Some fans were upset because he didn’t “respect” what came before or added things they found unnecessary. That’s subjective and different from the storyteller in George adding to what was told originally. He just had a different point of view from fans when it came time of the Prequels. These fans were naturally upset as it felt different on the surface from the Originals but that’s the whole point. It was meant to give us Anakin’s side of the stories we are told mainly by Obi-Wan in the Originals yet also bring a brighter light to core aspects that got more attention in the Prequels. Namely symbiote relationships and the mythology with the Force.

However with the Sequels we got it’s merely a corporation hiring storytellers who reinforce what many Original Trilogy fans thought of Star Wars before the Prequels. It’s telling us things from a fan’s prospective and how they may remember it being talked about growing up but missing core contexts of the story told to them by George. It does this by mostly ignoring the Prequels except for a few superficial references and surface level observations in the Original Trilogy. Examples, not paying attention to things like Luke seeing Darth Vader as Anakin Skywalker, his father, by the time of Return of the Jedi or what Balance of the Force meant. They’re not looking at the context or rules of the saga as a whole with the Sequels but merely their idea of what Star Wars meant to them as a kid or will make back their parent company’s investment back as fast as possible. This ulimately came back to bite them as whenever you run away from your story it will eventually catch up with you. The saga to George was the story of Anakin Skywalker and his family. Some fans don’t like this but that’s the story.

Why should an artist try appealing to fans? It’s nonsensical and gets you nowhere. I say it as humbly as possible you shouldn’t bother telling a story at all if you can’t respect the whole story. The Prequels are part of the fabric of Star Wars. Some may not like it but it’s fact and reality. Finish the story and let George’s nine part saga be told. If you want to move away from the concepts of Midi-Chlorians and the Chosen One afterwards be our guest but at least let his story be told from the beginning, middle, and end as he’s the creator of the story of the Skywalker family. It may even bring understanding that he thought through things more than he’s given credit for when you see the full contexts in the complete story. Disney would then have true freedom to do anything they wanted as they wouldn’t be beholden to the rules and contexts of what came before. Sure it would be ideal to continue to respect Star Wars as a whole of what came before but if you want to appeal to a mass audience after completing his story you’d be at liberty to do so more than at any other point. You could even still have the spinoffs like Rogue One and Solo to appease fans of the Original Trilogy. The majority of fans who strictly like the Original films tend to rave about them. In particular Rogue One. Not everyone of course but that’s subjective as all art is.

I don’t understand why some fans believe they have ownership over what Star Wars is though. It’s not always about us as fans. It’s just as much about each generation that comes along and giving them a story that continues the mythos. The Sequels we ended up with fail at doing this as they’re merely giving into the Prequel backlash and not concluding the story as George planned it to be told. They’re merely playing to fan expectations and giving us what they think we want or playing to what they expect us to see by subverting expectations. This is horribly disrespectful to George and the hard work of everyone who worked on the original six films. They came so close but were a country mile at the same time from truly getting Star Wars right. Now it feels like nobody from a fan prospective or the powers that be are truly happy unless you’re a fan that consumes everything given to you or you’re merely at a place where you can pick and choose or you can simply ignore and know Star Wars isn’t for you anymore. We are what they grow beyond I suppose. I just didn’t expect it would be this soon or done through the characters I love in Luke, Leia, and Han. It would’ve given needed closure to see them grow and evolve naturally instead of staying stilted to what we knew them as before or barely being recognisable yet reconfiguring their character arc in a way that serves what came before it in the previous two films.

We all deserved better but that’s a corporation for you. The central artist or auteur is the most important part of any project like this but as long as films like Marvel and what Star Wars is becoming are successful the storyteller will be pushed out of the equation. It may not always be perfect or smooth but I’d rather have a few eye rolls in things like stepping in poodoo over a few hundred contradictions that disrespect what came before in the final trilogy of the Skywalker family saga. We must in these terms and general learn from our mistakes as our story is our takes for the generations to come. Everything has a consequence and domino effect, and that’s a lesson George Lucas taught me.

Okay. Rant Over.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Well…that seems like “reaching” to make sense of it all. But that’s just me…🤔

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It’s easy to just bring in the Death of the Author into it all and claim people bastardized George’s vision, but let’s not forget it was George who decided to pass on the torch. He claimed he had already said everything he wanted to say in the universe and had left some guidelines, but that it’s up to the next generation now. The kids, now adults, that he inspired. I think that’s as beautiful an attitude as telling your whole story, if not more.

In the end it seems like George was the one that, following his buddhist - and Jedi - ways, was able to let go, while some were not. Perhaps there’s still things to be learned from him.

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TLJ did a far better job reconciling the PT & OT than the PT itself ever did, it was respectful to what came before while building on top of it. The OT also couldn’t adress many of the elements raised by the PT because they just weren’t on the table yet, so it was appropriate to have a continuation that tackled these elements, which is what we got with TLJ. To me that’s the only reason I can accept both the PT & ST as part of a larger story despite their respective flaws.

The story of “The Saga” was never about Anakin though, the PT may have retroactively placed way too much importance on him, but storywise the OT just isn’t about Vader/Anakin, it’s about Luke, Han and Leia. The PT was about the previous generation while the ST, both the one we got and Lucas’ treatments, was about the next generation. The overarching story of all 9 movies is about these interweaving generations growing and evolving from each other, which is why I appreciate the ST we got. Despite it’s flaws and admittedly ending in quite a dud, it got a lot of it right, even TROS in some respects.

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Omni said:

It’s easy to just bring in the Death of the Author into it all and claim people bastardized George’s vision, but let’s not forget it was George who decided to pass on the torch. He claimed he had already said everything he wanted to say in the universe and had left some guidelines, but that it’s up to the next generation now. The kids, now adults, that he inspired. I think that’s as beautiful an attitude as telling your whole story, if not more.

In the end it seems like George was the one that, following his buddhist - and Jedi - ways, was able to let go, while some were not. Perhaps there’s still things to be learned from him.

I agree in a sense but at the same time part of what Disney bought was George’s treatments for VII, VIII, and IX. The way they handled things was like a snake’s oil salesman. The whole situation reeks of disrespect and having no intentions of respecting him or fans. They merely took shortcuts and did what was easy. It’s no coincidence they shut George up and told him to not make any further comments after The Force Awakens. You only got a passive “It was beautifully well made” with The Last Jedi. He’s said in the past films can be beautifully made but he doesn’t necessarily like them. The same with Rogue One and The Mandalorian. We’re told he likes them but we were also told he liked The Force Awakens initially. Call me cynical if you will but I do tend to believe he probably does enjoy them as it’s not executives shooting the breeze but creatives in Gareth Edwards and Dave Filoni. It’s no coincidence I don’t think either though that Marcia Lucas’s comments got buried by the news outlets within days and no one pays attention to her saying she knows it’s hard for George when Disney drags him to events. It’s no coincidence Mark Hamill had a complete 180 degree turn on The Last Jedi and yet you see him fave tweets disapproving certain things or calling Lucasfilm different from the “indie garage band” they had back in the day. He stopped himself short of being critical of the current way of doing things by calling it a “full symphony orchestra and he’s not complaining” in Howard Kazanjian’s book. It’s not coincidence that Ben Burtt, Nick Gillard, Ahmed Best, the late great Jonathan Rinzler, and countless others from the past feel that Lucasfilm and Star Wars has longer lost a step.

However the biggest thing is you see George tell the children in the speaking gig he had with his wife that the first six films are very much his and his philosophy. He also told Paul Duncan that he thought he’d have more say in the way things would go with the Sequels and yet he also said how sometimes just as in life that things don’t always go the way we want. And that, that is advice I think we can all learn from as the Sequels or even for some the Prequels we got didn’t go as we may have wanted for the same or different contexts but we can let go by moving forward and maybe we’ll find a way to accept that Star Wars is no longer one man’s vision or to our liking but recognise that it is now told from a different prospective told by fans and dare I say a corporation.

Can Star Wars survive this? Only time will tell and all we can do is hope. Hope and wait for something that will give us some joy. There’s no point in being bitter and angry. I may not love the Sequels but I’m finding my peace in accepting them as an alternate universe told by Disney and what Hollywood sees Star Wars as. This is very different from my Star Wars that consists of the first six films and The Clone Wars series but you know sometimes they might make something I enjoy. It’s happened twice in the Disney era with Rogue One and Rebels with some enjoyment in retrospect towards The Last Jedi. Will it happen again? I hope so. I hope for the best from all of these people involved now and those that are added to the picture in the future. I hope to be pleasantly surprised we get something that can bring joy and passion similar to the old way of doing things but if not I will always have what I love and the ability to try giving things a different look as time heals and gives prospective as it’s happened before. We’re always growing and evolving if we desire to.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Something else I hadn’t mentioned yet was the issue of Luke’s ideology in TLJ. One of the things TLJ got praised for was tying itself back to the prequels by having Luke call out the failings of the prequel-era Jedi Order.

The thing is, there are plenty of legitimate issues to be raised about the prequel Jedi: the fact that they separated Force-sensitive babies from their parents and never let them know their own families; the fact they encouraged an unhealthy level of emotional repression and detachment from the outside world; and the fact that they remained servants of the Republic even as it grew more corrupt and self-serving, going so far as to lead a war against a faction trying to secede.

These are all legit grievances that could’ve been brought up. The problem is, TLJ doesn’t mention any of those. Luke says some stuff about how the Jedi allowed Sidious to destroy them, which means they apparently deserved to be destroyed, for some reason? He says the legacy of the Jedi is failure, despite the fact that the Jedi had been able to keep the Republic together and thriving (for the most part) for thousands of years. And he says that the Force doesn’t belong to the Jedi, which isn’t some groundbreaking statement. Everyone already knew that. The Jedi never claimed that the Force belonged to them.

I get that the point is that Luke is supposed to be wrong, so we can see him have a change of heart at the end. The problem is that Luke’s whole anti-Jedi stance in the first part of the movie is such a flimsy, poorly constructed strawman that there’s no way Luke would have believed it for 6 years. He would have seen through it before then, because of how little sense it makes.

There’s also the fact that Luke, given his unconventional path to knighthood, would definitely not have been the traditionalist, prequel-like Jedi the new canon portrays him as. He would have reformed the Order to correct its flaws, rather than just throwing the whole thing out without trying to change anything. But, I’ll save that for another post.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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Servii said:

I can’t say I agree. For a few reasons, but also for one major reason: the sequel trilogy made it so that the OT is actually the least important, least consequential of the three trilogies. The prequels show us Palpatine’s rise to power. The sequels show us how he’s finally defeated at the hands of his granddaughter. You could actually skip the OT altogether, since it’s the least relevant to the overarching saga story. Ultimately, Luke and his vision of a revived Jedi Order just ended up being the husk from which Rey and her new version of the Jedi would emerge. And the Skywalkers, while still being fairly important, are no longer the central figures driving the saga. They’re secondary to the Palpatines.

Both the prequels and sequels make the mistake of trying to reframe the saga around the new protagonist. You can see that in saga promotional material (and even in things like the startup screen for the new Lego game, which has Rey at the top and center of the group of characters, framing her as the main character of the saga). Part of the problem is that both trilogies are essentially pulling the saga in opposite directions, and as a result, the saga becomes disjointed.

I don’t doubt that the writers of the sequels have a lot of reverence for the OT. I do think they tried to have the new movies respect the old. They just fell into the trap of what I can only describe as reckless storytelling, where key plot points aren’t really thought through for what their implications would be. And there are quite a few inconsistencies between the new films and the OT. I’d say about as many as the prequels created.

A great (although thoroughly depressing) point. The OT now matters the least in the whole saga. Christ almighty. 🤦‍♂️

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Servii said:

Emre1601 said:

AspiringCreator said:

Honestly, the Sequel Trilogy is simultaneously to me a great series of films… and some of the most frustrating.

I very much enjoyed reading your post, thank you.
 

One thing I think gets overlooked is that the Sequel films did attempt to pay homage to the Original Trilogy, to try and respect it and its legacy. Whereas George wrote so many inconsistencies into the Prequels, contradicting the OT, it felt anything but that. It was as if George was trying to reinvent Star Wars and his “grand plan”, and was quite happy to diminish the OT at the expense of his Prequel Trilogy to try and achieve this.

When I think of some of the issues that the Sequels have, I try and give them a little more of “a pass” just for that. That respect, and that trying to make three films more in keeping with the Originals, in spirit at least. TFA and TLJ are easier to do this for, and TROS is more difficult, as that is one crazy break neck film with far too much happening too fast for anything to sink in. For me, anyway. As you posted, another year to help production for the film to iron out some of its issues would have helped considerably.

I can’t say I agree. For a few reasons, but also for one major reason: the sequel trilogy made it so that the OT is actually the least important, least consequential of the three trilogies. The prequels show us Palpatine’s rise to power. The sequels show us how he’s finally defeated at the hands of his granddaughter. You could actually skip the OT altogether, since it’s the least relevant to the overarching saga story. Ultimately, Luke and his vision of a revived Jedi Order just ended up being the husk from which Rey and her new version of the Jedi would emerge. And the Skywalkers, while still being fairly important, are no longer the central figures driving the saga. They’re secondary to the Palpatines.

And there are quite a few inconsistencies between the new films and the OT. I’d say about as many as the prequels created.

That is also a good point of view.

The Palpatine Saga!
 

What, out of interest, would you say are some of the discrepancies between the Sequels and the Original Trilogy?