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What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 4

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LexX said:
The point is, I love the original trilogy and I remember the time before TPM like it was a full life even though I saw the OT in 1996 for the first time. It was great time all around. After the PT I had lost this feeling. There still were the same movies I loved but with them came this other thing that wasn’t anything like it.

Small rant incoming.

The OT is like this beautiful, smart, funny woman who agreed to marry me. And after years of marriage her drug dealing, abusive son from a prior marriage now comes back and moves in with us. The son is the PT.

You can kick him out and pretend he doesn’t exist…but you know he is alive…somewhere. And even if he died, the memory remains. He is family.

That is the problem with the PT for me. And the ST for that matter. I try to do the whole “personal canon” thing, but I can’t. The OT is forever tainted for me. Can I still enjoy them to a certain degree? Sure. But can I ever look at Darth Vader again without part of me knowing how Anakin was portrayed in the PT? No! Can I look at Luke Skywalker again without occasionally remembering him sucking the milk from the boobs of some space cow or running away like a coward leaving an evil force to grow in the galaxy? No!

I have come to the point where I am more interested and fascinated by the train wreck nature of this franchise and by the toxic battles within its own fandom then the actual material.

Perhaps it is time to get out…again.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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In other words, namely Transformers fandom terms,

ruinedforever

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

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BedeHistory731 said:

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

Transformers was meant to be a totally brainless film from the start, so I never took it seriously. I just enjoyed Bay’s shots of Megan Fox and his excellent ability to frame certain sequences.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

Transformers was meant to be a totally brainless film from the start, so I never took it seriously. I just enjoyed Bay’s shots of Megan Fox and his excellent ability to frame certain sequences.

Oh it’s more than just the films. Going back to the ‘80s cartoon, there’ve been countless revivals and new continuities throughout the past 35 years in animation, comics, and even some prose novels.

It’s not as brainless as one might think, while OT Star Wars can be more brainless than one may think.

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BedeHistory731 said:

theprequelsrule said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

Transformers was meant to be a totally brainless film from the start, so I never took it seriously. I just enjoyed Bay’s shots of Megan Fox and his excellent ability to frame certain sequences.

Oh it’s more than just the films. Going back to the ‘80s cartoon, there’ve been countless revivals and new continuities throughout the past 35 years in animation, comics, and even some prose novels.

It’s not as brainless as one might think, while OT Star Wars can be more brainless than one may think.

I’m Gen-X, so I grew up in the 80s and was all over Transformers. But have never participated in its fandom online as an adult. Hence the much healthier relationship I have with it then Star Wars. 😃

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Acknowledging that these are just stupid space wizard movies and not some “high art auteurship” would make the fandom a much less intense place.

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BedeHistory731 said:

Acknowledging that these are just stupid space wizard movies and not some “high art auteurship” would make the fandom a much less intense place.

I agree. Even though Lucas clearly did have some philosophical ideas he wanted to explore, Star Wars mainly takes its inspiration from comic books. The Secret History of Star Wars should be required reading for any Star Wars fan.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

LexX said:
The point is, I love the original trilogy and I remember the time before TPM like it was a full life even though I saw the OT in 1996 for the first time. It was great time all around. After the PT I had lost this feeling. There still were the same movies I loved but with them came this other thing that wasn’t anything like it.

Small rant incoming.

The OT is like this beautiful, smart, funny woman who agreed to marry me. And after years of marriage her drug dealing, abusive son from a prior marriage now comes back and moves in with us. The son is the PT.

You can kick him out and pretend he doesn’t exist…but you know he is alive…somewhere. And even if he died, the memory remains. He is family.

That is the problem with the PT for me. And the ST for that matter. I try to do the whole “personal canon” thing, but I can’t. The OT is forever tainted for me. Can I still enjoy them to a certain degree? Sure. But can I ever look at Darth Vader again without part of me knowing how Anakin was portrayed in the PT? No! Can I look at Luke Skywalker again without occasionally remembering him sucking the milk from the boobs of some space cow or running away like a coward leaving an evil force to grow in the galaxy? No!

I have come to the point where I am more interested and fascinated by the train wreck nature of this franchise and by the toxic battles within its own fandom then the actual material.

Perhaps it is time to get out…again.

I know how you feel. I felt the same way for a long time, and it killed my interest in Star Wars for several years.

I’ve taken to compartmentalizing each trilogy and viewing each of them as its own three-part “saga,” like three different legends all taking place in the same setting. In a way, we’re lucky compared to fans of TV shows that went downhill in later seasons, like Game of Thrones. Those poor people don’t even have a clean cutting-off point where they can stop watching and just remember the good times. The whole show becomes tainted, because you can see big setups in the early seasons, and you’ll remember the disappointing payoffs those setups got in later seasons.

Compartmentalizing isn’t a perfect solution, but it definitely makes watching Star Wars easier, so I’m glad there are such clear dividing lines between each “era” of Star Wars movies. And it helps that I never really registered OT Luke and ST Luke as the same characters. Or OT Vader and PT Anakin, either.

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Transformers is easy. G1 cartoon, G1 toys. Original Marvel comics. The end.

Peter Cullen is Optimus, Frank Welker is Megatron. The bayformers movies are trash. It is very easy to compartmentalize.

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JadedSkywalker said:

Transformers is easy. Beast Wars/Armada/Animated/Prime/Cyberverse cartoons, various toylines throughout the years. The 2005-19 IDW comics. That’s mostly it.

I expanded on it, because not all of us are G1-only folks. It’s easy to have compartmentalization, while not ignoring non-G1 things.

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theprequelsrule said:

I have come to the point where I am more interested and fascinated by the train wreck nature of this franchise and by the toxic battles within its own fandom then the actual material.

That mindset haunts me too in terms of the Prequels. I can’t enjoy Episode I - III as movies anymore. I guess i watched the Making Ofs & Web-Docs (The Beginning, From Puppets to Pixels, etc.) more often than the movies itself. And when i watch them occasionally, i just watch them with audio commentary. I wanted to enjoy those movies so many times, but it always comes down to: trying to understand George Lucas’ awkward decision making and neverending ‘it-always-meant-to-be’ justifications. It is a puzzle i can’t solve. The OT is not tainted for me, but the PT is.

Rogue One is redundant. Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES.
The hallmark of a corrupt leader: Being surrounded by yes men.
‘The best visual effects in the world will not compensate for a story told badly.’ - V.E.S.
‘Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.’ - SilverWook

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BedeHistory731 said:

Acknowledging that these are just stupid space wizard movies and not some “high art auteurship” would make the fandom a much less intense place.

Why can’t it be both at the same time? A story for children with deeper nuances beneath the surface that borrows from Canyon Cinema, Japanese cinema, silent films, Republic Serials, art house cinema, anthropology, history, psychology, mythology, comic books, sword and sorcery literature, and countless other things. George’s six films and really The Clone Wars series drew from many sources and are very much akin to art house cinema at the same time. The only real differences are they have an equal amount of what many consider to be mainstream qualities to go alongside being designed to be made for kids yet can be appealing cross generations and be deeply studied. This isn’t a contradiction but merely George respecting his audience and paying homage to the things he loves. Star Wars can satisfy both camps. The camp where kids tend to align that just wants to shut their brain off and then the one that likes to discover the interwoven and deeper meanings with the juxtapositions and poetry that I think personally make for an even more profound experience. However nothing will take away the pure joy of watching Star Wars as a kid and trying to like a kid would now as an adult.

His films are more than your typical popcorn flicks you find in Marvel and the majority of the Disney era of Star Wars.

If it were easy to make stories like the original six Star Wars films or books like Lord of the Rings or music like The Beatles everybody would be doing it. George deserves some credit for having some authorship instead of just playing to nostalgia but I guess it’s too much for some to make the jump that he’s just as talented as his collaborators he assembled to bring his vision to life.

Haarspalter said:

theprequelsrule said:

I have come to the point where I am more interested and fascinated by the train wreck nature of this franchise and by the toxic battles within its own fandom then the actual material.

That mindset haunts me too in terms of the Prequels. I can’t enjoy Episode I - III as movies anymore. I guess i watched the Making Ofs & Web-Docs (The Beginning, From Puppets to Pixels, etc.) more often than the movies itself. And when i watch them occasionally, i just watch them with audio commentary. I wanted to enjoy those movies so many times, but it always comes down to: trying to understand George Lucas’ awkward decision making and neverending ‘it-always-meant-to-be’ justifications. It is a puzzle i can’t solve. The OT is not tainted for me, but the PT is.

I find it helps to ask why with the poetry and juxtapositions instead of going in with reinforced beliefs of how something doesn’t fit into the Originals but more how the Prequels add new meaning to what something may have meant originally or may have been expanded upon. The Prequels are meant to give us another side to the story. Anakin’s side. The Originals are telling us second hand information with him and of the events we saw in the previous trilogy. It’s the history versus the more fable quality of the Original Trilogy.

The films according to George are meant to be seen I-VI for a reason. Some things work better when viewed from his gaze instead of how some fans may have experienced it initially. However it’s understandable it’s personal at the same time.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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screams in the void said:

One thing George forgot …not all poetry rhymes , nor does it have to .

I’d say George actually understands that perfectly. His whole way of creating poetry is different than how most see it. He likes taking an idea and changing the contexts around it to give a deeper meaning within another part of the story. Along with creating visual symmetry between the two trilogies. You can also slowly see the Republic be remade into the image of the Empire through shapes and design. He sees poetry more as lyrics to a song than as a literal prose the Sequel Trilogy mostly takes it to mean. He also writes his dialogue in a very similar way. He has tones he’s aiming for instead of dialogue that’s more modern in presentation. He uses the old fashioned style versus what is considered the normal for an audience today. He finds contemporary storytelling boring.

Examples within Dialogue:

“Your lightsabers will make a fine addition to my collection.” = Intimidation

“It’s only because I’m so in love.” = Devotion

Example within Narrative Poetry: Anakin/Vader physically or emotionally wounds Padme and Luke. Both reach out to Obi-Wan. Luke through the Force. Padme directly by asking him if Anakin is okay. Then you also have the most profound part for me - Luke and Leia are being born at the same time as though Luke and Leia are communicating through the Force when Leia checks if Luke is okay and rescues him. Just as Padme does with checking with Obi-Wan if Anakin is okay and Obi-Wan is rescuing her by taking her somewhere safe. It’s also happening while Anakin is being reborn as Darth Vader and losing his grip as Darth Vader as he spares the Imperial Officers when the Millennium Falcon escapes. Just as Padme is losing her will to live and giving life. The sequence ends with Anakin in his last words before being fully reborn as Darth Vader are of asking if Padme is safe. And naturally Padme’s last words in between are her belief there’s good in Anakin. This carries over to Luke. He keeps Padme’s hopeful belief in Anakin going after being scarred by him as she was but the difference is he survived. She didn’t. Her legacy did though. His journey of saving his father is rooted in his connection with his mother. In a way Leia takes more after Anakin personality wise but Luke takes after Padme in personality. In a more beautifully haunting way of putting it, one life begins as another passes.

And Visual Poetry:

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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I’m no prequel fan or apologist, but beyond all the unnecessary retcons to the OT lore they are middle of the road in quality for movies. Episode II has some really rushed and janky cgi. I think Hayden is better than he is given credit for, but he isn’t movie star great either. There are several things that could have been developed more or written better. But i actually agree with Lucas on Anakin being a young kid in Phantom Menace and his motivation for doing so, and i also think there are a lot of things to like in that film isolated away from the bad and uneven elements.

Phantom Menace is easily the 4th in quality behind Return. In the trilogy The prophecy thing take it or leave it and the midichlorians but basically showing that Anakin was like Luke, until he turned evil and mirroring his journey isn’t bad.

Just wish Lucas had really leaned into the movie serial aspect and went full swashbuckling action with Obi and Anakin. The movies are so damn boring in comparison with the originals, too much politics.

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I don’t think what George did with the Prequels can be considered retconing but recontextualising the story to give added or different meanings to the Originals and his Sequels if he ever made them. They were designed as the first trilogy after all. Retconing is more aligned with what the Sequels we ended up with did to Rey’s origins by changing it each film. I’d also say the Originals are just as political as the Prequels but not as heavily focused on since we’re more in the wilderness of things. However certain contexts and meanings in the Prequels carry over with it. The political situation in general is more easy to take at face value in IV, VI, and VI as we know the situation from spending more time on it in I, II, and III. Not to mention the real world sensibilities of the time it was made.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Haarspalter said:

theprequelsrule said:

I have come to the point where I am more interested and fascinated by the train wreck nature of this franchise and by the toxic battles within its own fandom then the actual material.

That mindset haunts me too in terms of the Prequels. I can’t enjoy Episode I - III as movies anymore. I guess i watched the Making Ofs & Web-Docs (The Beginning, From Puppets to Pixels, etc.) more often than the movies itself. And when i watch them occasionally, i just watch them with audio commentary. I wanted to enjoy those movies so many times, but it always comes down to: trying to understand George Lucas’ awkward decision making and neverending ‘it-always-meant-to-be’ justifications. It is a puzzle i can’t solve. The OT is not tainted for me, but the PT is.

This is similar to what I feel too. There are far too many “mental gymnastics and long reaches” required, as others have said on here, which simply do not address or fix the many issues the PT has. They just don’t do it for me, and shouldn’t be needed to enjoy films now meant to be part of some sort of coherent Saga.

For all the modern hate thrown at the Plinkett PT reviews, they did raise some solid issues and points about the shortcomings of the PT onscreen.

Fan Edits for the Prequels address many of the issues, fixing the parts of the PT films far better than George ever likely would. And also making them more enjoyable and coherent films in the overall Saga.

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Emre1601 said:

For all the modern hate thrown at the Plinkett PT reviews, they did raise some solid issues and points about the shortcomings of the PT onscreen.

If the Plinkett reviews actually presented facts instead of opinions or reinforcing false claims I’d probably be able to take them seriously but they don’t. They merely reinforce the consensus of what their target audience believes to be true about the Prequels. Take anything you want from their reviews but it’s likely to be false claims or reinforcing what is already agreed upon by the person watching the reviews thinks are the “problems” with the films. Same with Chris Stuckmann and countless other “critics”.

The majority isn’t always right.

I consider the purpose of film criticism to be one able to challenge my thoughts and make me look at things in a different way. I’ll either agree and change my initial thoughts or I’ll stay the same with greater understanding why I feel as I do. I also see the artist above what critics and fans alike think.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

For all the modern hate thrown at the Plinkett PT reviews, they did raise some solid issues and points about the shortcomings of the PT onscreen.

If the Plinkett reviews actually presented facts instead of opinions or reinforcing false claims I’d probably be able to take them seriously but they don’t. They merely reinforce the consensus of what their target audience believes to be true about the Prequels. Take anything you want from their reviews but it’s likely to be false claims or reinforcing what is already agreed upon by the person watching the reviews thinks are the “problems” with the films. Same with Chris Stuckmann and countless other “critics”.

The majority isn’t always right.

I consider the purpose of film criticism to be one able to challenge my thoughts and make me look at things in a different way. I’ll either agree and change my initial thoughts or I’ll stay the same with greater understanding why I feel as I do. I also see the artist above what critics and fans alike think.

Cool.

Even without reinforcing a consensus or appealing to his target audience, or some sort of perceived majority. Whether you consider the purpose of film criticism to be A, B or C. Or if you want to dismiss him because you don’t agree with his views, style or content (and ‘countless other “critics”’). I think he raised some valid points and facts in his videos.

And that Fan Edits for the Prequels address many of the issues mentioned in his videos, fixing the parts of the PT films far better than George ever likely would. And also making them more enjoyable and coherent films in the overall Saga.
 

As for “reinforcing false claims”, you may want to take a look in the mirror. Send me a PM if you want to continue this conversation. Or not, it is up to you.

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Imagine liking and referencing a video featuring gags of a crazy man who slaves and preys on young girls. Disgusting.

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Omni said:

Imagine liking and referencing a video featuring gags of a crazy man who slaves and preys on young girls. Disgusting.

There’s also that side of it. Disgusting indeed. That’s why I appreciate Rick Worley’s videos. He always presents the facts and let’s the viewer decide what they wish to believe. I know and understand why you wouldn’t want to view his videos with his take on Woody Allen but I’d actually recommend giving him a chance. He really did his research on the Woody Allen video as he does with all of videos. I still think Woody is weird but his essay opened my eyes to a more factual evidence account versus what the mass media consensus says.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Omni said:

Imagine liking and referencing a video featuring gags of a crazy man who slaves and preys on young girls. Disgusting.

I simply said they did raise some solid issues and points about the shortcomings of the PT onscreen.

Nothing about the character featured in the video, who is obviously meant to be a caricature of deeply disgusting person, and a sick criminal. I don’t like some of the other “humour” or content in the videos either, although this is just an actor playing a character. But again, they did raise some solid issues and points about the shortcomings of the PT.

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screams in the void said:

One thing George forgot …not all poetry rhymes , nor does it have to .

100%.
 

As Emre says above there are some good points and facts made in Plinkett’s section on George, rhyming, Ring Theory and more, in his TFA review: https://youtu.be/miVRaoR_8xQ?t=653

Not forgetting his actual reviews on the Prequels themselves.
 

Contrary to what some other believe and claim, I even managed to still have my own views on the PT films after watching the Plinkett reviews!

“The other Sequels were the result of an over-anxious press. The original intention was to make three [films], and that was really the end of it. It was not until 10 years after the first [film] that I thought of doing a back story.” - George Lucas, speaking at the Premiere of ROTS in 2005

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Stardust1138 said:

screams in the void said:

One thing George forgot …not all poetry rhymes , nor does it have to .

I’d say George actually understands that perfectly. His whole way of creating poetry is different than how most see it. He likes taking an idea and changing the contexts around it to give a deeper meaning within another part of the story. Along with creating visual symmetry between the two trilogies. You can also slowly see the Republic be remade into the image of the Empire through shapes and design. He sees poetry more as lyrics to a song than as a literal prose the Sequel Trilogy mostly takes it to mean. He also writes his dialogue in a very similar way. He has tones he’s aiming for instead of dialogue that’s more modern in presentation. He uses the old fashioned style versus what is considered the normal for an audience today. He finds contemporary storytelling boring.

Examples within Dialogue:

“Your lightsabers will make a fine addition to my collection.” = Intimidation

“It’s only because I’m so in love.” = Devotion

Example within Narrative Poetry: Anakin/Vader physically or emotionally wounds Padme and Luke. Both reach out to Obi-Wan. Luke through the Force. Padme directly by asking him if Anakin is okay. Then you also have the most profound part for me - Luke and Leia are being born at the same time as though Luke and Leia are communicating through the Force when Leia checks if Luke is okay and rescues him. Just as Padme does with checking with Obi-Wan if Anakin is okay and Obi-Wan is rescuing her by taking her somewhere safe. It’s also happening while Anakin is being reborn as Darth Vader and losing his grip as Darth Vader as he spares the Imperial Officers when the Millennium Falcon escapes. Just as Padme is losing her will to live and giving life. The sequence ends with Anakin in his last words before being fully reborn as Darth Vader are of asking if Padme is safe. And naturally Padme’s last words in between are her belief there’s good in Anakin. This carries over to Luke. He keeps Padme’s hopeful belief in Anakin going after being scarred by him as she was but the difference is he survived. She didn’t. Her legacy did though. His journey of saving his father is rooted in his connection with his mother. In a way Leia takes more after Anakin personality wise but Luke takes after Padme in personality. In a more beautifully haunting way of putting it, one life begins as another passes.

And Visual Poetry:

I’ll just leave this here …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0 and this as well…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FGBGcvWkdM

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Darth Retcon said:

screams in the void said:

One thing George forgot …not all poetry rhymes , nor does it have to .

100%.
 

As Emre says above there are some good points and facts made in Plinkett’s section on George, rhyming, Ring Theory and more, in his TFA review: https://youtu.be/miVRaoR_8xQ?t=653

Not forgetting his actual reviews on the Prequels themselves.
 

Contrary to what some other believe and claim, I even managed to still have my own views on the PT films after watching the Plinkett reviews!

In case it gets lost in the shuffle , I will repost the video by Hellogreedo here , which critiques the whole "ring theory " in a manner of civil discourse that is far removed from the tone of Plinkett …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FGBGcvWkdM and how was it that George described poetry ? Oh , yeah , now I remember …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/