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What do you LIKE about the EU? — Page 17

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YOU WILL KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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 (Edited)

xhonzi said:

American Hominid said:

Because the Sith were excluded from the post-Jedi Bantam EU, you had a lot of random dark siders and Imperial remnants. 

Were they excluded intentionally?  Or did no one really work them in?

I mean, they were in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2, right?

 

I'm pretty sure they were actually excluded.  They were shown in the EU stories taking place before the movies (thousands of years before), and artifacts from this period were seen in post-movie-era sources (like holocrons and the Dark Temple in Mysteries of the Sith) but no actual Sith (except Darth Vader). 

This probably had to do with GL's plans to possibly use them in the prequels (the Sith as dark siders go back to the second draft of the first movie, where a Jedi apprentice named Darklighter falls to the dark side, teaches the Sith the dark side - they were pirates before this - and they all become the bodyguards of the Emperor).  Zahn wanted the Noghri to be called "Sith" originally because Darth Vader was already known as "The Dark Lord of the Sith." But no one knew what that meant, so he wanted to tie it in to his story... GL/LFL said no.  When Veitch and the rest started working on TOTJ they wanted to have an ancient dark side sect and GL said, use the Sith, that's what they're supposed to be anyway.

Towards the end of the Bantam run, people were actually clamoring to see the Sith as villains in the "current" story period.  The creators of the New Jedi Order series of books originally wanted to use the Sith but were rebuffed by LFL, so they used extragalactic aliens instead.  So I'm fairly sure their use was tightly controlled by LFL.

I've got no problem with the existence of the Sith as a sect, it's just that they seem to have been made into less of a specific Dark Side culture and more of just generically Evil nasties.  Palpatine was sort of this in the original films, but Vader struck me as actually having nobler intentions despite his forceful and violent methods.  I thought that was the difference between light and dark - means versus ends.  Some Force-users would try to use the Force by disrupting the natural flow of things as little as they could.  Others would try to accomplish whatever they could, not caring about the consequences - these would be dark siders. Jedi might refer specifically to the first group, and/or more generically to Force-users as a whole (like "Xerox" being both vernacular for "copy" and also a brand name), while Sith would be a specific culture which depended on dark side magic, but certainly not the only one.

 

Anchorhead said:

 

Would you like to play a game?

"Star Wars films are basically silent movies. And they're designed as silent movies, therefore the music carries a -- has a very large role in carrying the story, more than it would in a normal movie."  -GL

"NOO! NOOOOOO!!" - Darth Vader

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TV's Frink said:

Ha-ha, awesome reference for us oldsters!

It's who we are, man.  ;-)

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American Hominid said:

xhonzi said:

American Hominid said: 

I just listened to a podcast interview with Tim Zahn the other day where he talked about this exact concept, and how he purposely approaches his stories this way.

 Link, please?

 

http://functionalnerds.com/2011/07/episode-065-timothy-zahn/

The specific comment starts around 22:18, but there are interesting bits sprinkled throughout, depending on what you're into.

Thanks for the link, that was very enjoyable.  Zahn seems like a cool- normal guy.  I really wish I'd listened to this a week ago though- as he was in my neck of the woods signing his new book.  I think I would have gone and met him had I realized he was here.

Drat!

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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I have a question, Anchorhead. Do you have any interest in exploring the comics side of the EU, or are you strictly going for the novels?

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I have a question, Anchorhead. Do you have any interest in exploring the comics side of the EU, or are you strictly going for the novels?

I'm really just interested in the novels. I very much prefer that depth-of-story that novels provide.  I've seen some comics that seemed interesting for their stories, but I'm not really a comic book guy.  Even when I was a kid it was only a peripheral interest. 

That said;  There is one exception.  The newspaper strips from the late 70s\early 80s are an everyday read for me.  I really like those.  One of the members here has an excellent site devoted to their history & preservation.  

http://dailysw.blogspot.com/

In fact, I'm pretty sure the two lesser Star Wars nerds in my office are tired of me sending them the strip every morning, along with my commentary.  ;-)

 

Anyway, in answer to your question;  Novels, with a side of newspaper strips, makes up the EU I have any interest in.

 

 

 

 

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I just bought Allegiance by Zahn.  To me, this novel fills a gap that is largely neglected by most EU authors: interquels between OT films.  Prior to this and Zahn's sequel, Choices of One, there are only two prominent interquels (that I can think of at least): Splinter of the Mind's Eye and Shadows of the Empire.  I'm aware of the Marvel comics, but those are lower down on the canonicity scale and have been forgotten in many ways.  I look forward to reading this book by my favorite Star Wars author and during a period of Star Wars EU that could use some fleshing out.

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Anchorhead said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I have a question, Anchorhead. Do you have any interest in exploring the comics side of the EU, or are you strictly going for the novels?

I'm really just interested in the novels. I very much prefer that depth-of-story that novels provide.  I've seen some comics that seemed interesting for their stories, but I'm not really a comic book guy.  Even when I was a kid it was only a peripheral interest. 

That said;  There is one exception.  The newspaper strips from the late 70s\early 80s are an everyday read for me.  I really like those.  One of the members here has an excellent site devoted to their history & preservation.  

http://dailysw.blogspot.com/

In fact, I'm pretty sure the two lesser Star Wars nerds in my office are tired of me sending them the strip every morning, along with my commentary.  ;-)

 

Anyway, in answer to your question;  Novels, with a side of newspaper strips, makes up the EU I have any interest in.

 Give him time.  ;)

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

Anchorhead said:

Anyway, in answer to your question;  Novels, with a side of newspaper strips, makes up the EU I have any interest in.

 Give him time.  ;)

;-)     True. 

Just a few years ago I was sworn off anything post-1980 - and had been since the time when Return was still in the theaters.  Decades go by with me digging my heels in, I stumble upon this board, meet all these fellow nerds and......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXdhKyIEQpM

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American Hominid said:

Would you like to play a game?

Great, but hard game. One of the few that actually feels like Star Wars.

I just moved and am un-boxing my EU books. And will reread all of them....again...

The Illustrated universe book is very good. I found a battered former library copy and it really holds together in the text. The binding not so much anymore.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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 (Edited)

I could not get into choices of one it sucked.

There is stuff in there that seems out of continuity with the other Zahn novels like Mara meeting Luke in this book, when she only casually sees him once in jabba's palace and misses a chance to kill him according to the Zahn trilogy, and only meets him after palpatine is long dead and working for karrde.

I also don't buy her being duped into thinking palpatine and the empire is good in the way it is done in the book, just like the troopers in this book and allegiance.

The moral relativist crap is beyond retarded and has no place in star wars pre prequels, the prequels made star wars crappy shades of grey where their were no good guys even the jedi were as bad as the sith.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I don't see anything wrong with shades of gray in Star Wars. Hell, one of the main reasons that the PT-styled Sith suck so much is because there are no shades of gray in the way they're written. 

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skyjedi2005 said:

I could not get into choices of one it sucked.

There is stuff in there that seems out of continuity with the other Zahn novels like Mara meeting Luke in this book, when she only casually sees him once in jabba's palace and misses a chance to kill him according to the Zahn trilogy, and only meets him after palpatine is long dead and working for karrde.

I also don't buy her being duped into thinking palpatine and the empire is good in the way it is done in the book, just like the troopers in this book and allegiance.

The moral relativist crap is beyond retarded and has no place in star wars pre prequels, the prequels made star wars crappy shades of grey where their were no good guys even the jedi were as bad as the sith.

Zahn started to fall in love with his own creations - many of whom were Imperials - so that is where (I think) a lot of the relativist crap came into play. It began to creep into his work in the Hand of Thrawn duology, but not enough to ruin them (fortunately). Like you, I don't like it.

As an aside, I always thought the final chapter in Vison of the Future was wonderfully written. It made a great ending (Mara coming full circle etc.), and I wish Star Wars had ended there. Then came New Jedi Order...

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I don't see anything wrong with shades of gray in Star Wars. Hell, one of the main reasons that the PT-styled Sith suck so much is because there are no shades of gray in the way they're written. 

QFT.

(Though I can see how Anakin's turn was supposed to be identified with, I think.) 

Antagonists - and protagonists, for that matter - who are each simply avatars for one side of a binary system of objective morality are boring and hard to identify with.

I don't think the OT was fully black and white, and I don't even mean the fact that Anakin showed the possibility of redemption.  Even in SW77, Vader's motivations for learning the dark side (in the backstory) might have been understandable. For example, I got the sense that he was frustrated with his lack of progress under Obi-Wan, and was tempted by the easier way to access power.  This impression was only strengthened by ESB.  The Empire was about ruling and maintaining a rigid hierarchy and inflexible standards.

Those are all understandable motivations. Even if I tend to disagree with people who actually evince them, I can often see where they're coming from. I know they're called the 'evil Empire' in the scroll, but I think the brutality of their methods can account for this; their goals being overtly 'Evil' is unnecessary, and uninteresting.  GL said around the time ROTS came out, no one counts themselves as evil.  Everyone does things for reasons that are right to them.  And in that, I think he was right.

Note also that at the time of the OT, only Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith.  GL knew this was to refer to a dark side group, but neither the Empire nor Palpatine himself were called Sithly.  Also, (possibly as a result of this) the Sith were presented in the EU as a culture, one that focused on dark side magic, but not the only one.  Dark siders didn't necessarily have to have any particular cultural affiliation, and light siders didn't either (which is how you saw a lot of Dark Jedi and also light side sects like the Aing-Tii).

In the PT, I definitely got more of a binary between the Jedi and the Sith as representatives of the two sides of the Force. 

(As an aside: for me, the Force works better as simply Power, a Life Force for the universe, which can be accessed within normal natural constraints (light side) or by ignoring those limits (dark side).  If the universe is a bottle containing the Coke of the Force, a light sider would access it by unscrewing the cap, which is a bit more complicated and time-consuming, while a dark sider would just break the bottle and let it pour out.  But I digress.)

I think in the PT and the EU after it, the Jedi and Sith were placed in binary opposition and their conflict was upscaled from simply involving two groups of Force users who chose different methods with very different levels of collateral damage to one involving the structure of the Force itself.  To me, this is different from much of what we saw in the OT.

EDIT: Maybe that last sentence really gets at something: it might be different if the OT gave the impression that the Empire was about the return of a dark side Culture and their desire to rule the galaxy.  But given the way we mostly see the admirals, stormtroopers, etc, and the fact that while both Vader and the Emperor use the dark side they don't seem to have any explicit shared cultural affiliation except 'Imperial,' making the Empire instead "really" about Sith factional domination feels mismatched.  It seemed to me like it was about certain political ideologies, for which the dark side was a tool of enforcement.

"Star Wars films are basically silent movies. And they're designed as silent movies, therefore the music carries a -- has a very large role in carrying the story, more than it would in a normal movie."  -GL

"NOO! NOOOOOO!!" - Darth Vader

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American Hominid said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I don't see anything wrong with shades of gray in Star Wars. Hell, one of the main reasons that the PT-styled Sith suck so much is because there are no shades of gray in the way they're written. 

QFT.

(Though I can see how Anakin's turn was supposed to be identified with, I think.) 

Antagonists - and protagonists, for that matter - who are each simply avatars for one side of a binary system of objective morality are boring and hard to identify with.

I don't think the OT was fully black and white, and I don't even mean the fact that Anakin showed the possibility of redemption.  Even in SW77, Vader's motivations for learning the dark side (in the backstory) might have been understandable. For example, I got the sense that he was frustrated with his lack of progress under Obi-Wan, and was tempted by the easier way to access power.  This impression was only strengthened by ESB.  The Empire was about ruling and maintaining a rigid hierarchy and inflexible standards.

Those are all understandable motivations. Even if I tend to disagree with people who actually evince them, I can often see where they're coming from. I know they're called the 'evil Empire' in the scroll, but I think the brutality of their methods can account for this; their goals being overtly 'Evil' is unnecessary, and uninteresting.  GL said around the time ROTS came out, no one counts themselves as evil.  Everyone does things for reasons that are right to them.  And in that, I think he was right.

Note also that at the time of the OT, only Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith.  GL knew this was to refer to a dark side group, but neither the Empire nor Palpatine himself were called Sithly.  Also, (possibly as a result of this) the Sith were presented in the EU as a culture, one that focused on dark side magic, but not the only one.  Dark siders didn't necessarily have to have any particular cultural affiliation, and light siders didn't either (which is how you saw a lot of Dark Jedi and also light side sects like the Aing-Tii).

In the PT, I definitely got more of a binary between the Jedi and the Sith as representatives of the two sides of the Force. 

(As an aside: for me, the Force works better as simply Power, a Life Force for the universe, which can be accessed within normal natural constraints (light side) or by ignoring those limits (dark side).  If the universe is a bottle containing the Coke of the Force, a light sider would access it by unscrewing the cap, which is a bit more complicated and time-consuming, while a dark sider would just break the bottle and let it pour out.  But I digress.)

I think in the PT and the EU after it, the Jedi and Sith were placed in binary opposition and their conflict was upscaled from simply involving two groups of Force users who chose different methods with very different levels of collateral damage to one involving the structure of the Force itself.  To me, this is different from much of what we saw in the OT.

EDIT: Maybe that last sentence really gets at something: it might be different if the OT gave the impression that the Empire was about the return of a dark side Culture and their desire to rule the galaxy.  But given the way we mostly see the admirals, stormtroopers, etc, and the fact that while both Vader and the Emperor use the dark side they don't seem to have any explicit shared cultural affiliation except 'Imperial,' making the Empire instead "really" about Sith factional domination feels mismatched.  It seemed to me like it was about certain political ideologies, for which the dark side was a tool of enforcement.

   This 10+

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That's how it looks with the addition of the PT, yeah... but I was talking about how it appears to me when looking at the OT and pre-prequel sources only.

"Star Wars films are basically silent movies. And they're designed as silent movies, therefore the music carries a -- has a very large role in carrying the story, more than it would in a normal movie."  -GL

"NOO! NOOOOOO!!" - Darth Vader

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DuracellEnergizer said:

 

Anchorhead said:

The novel had a feeling of everything must be viewed from a Prequel point of view.


This pretty much sums up the current state of the EU.

I think it's more attempting to mesh the two trilogies together by getting your OT in my PT and my PT in your OT.*

It can come off as blatant and annoying shoehorning, but sometimes it's good. I really enjoyed "The Life and Times of Obi-Wan Kenobi" because the author did a good job of connecting all the Obi-Wan stuff into one character. There was good suspense and emotion throughout. It's really a very sad book, because you know where it's going. It literally gave me chills at certain points.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Something I liked about the EU: Jedi with red lightsabers.

I use the past tense because you can't get red Jedi sabers anymore thanks to Lucas' anemic vision.

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Whoa, that image is so... retro-looking.  I like.  It looks like a WEG (or other 1980s/1990s) pic, but with prequel characters.  Perhaps a good side to the mixing the styles of the trilogies?

"Star Wars films are basically silent movies. And they're designed as silent movies, therefore the music carries a -- has a very large role in carrying the story, more than it would in a normal movie."  -GL

"NOO! NOOOOOO!!" - Darth Vader

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^Yeah, it is an awesome retro image, and a great representation of what the PT could have been. It's the cover art to the second issue in the Emissaries to Malastare miniseries just in case you were wondering.

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I've always been interested in the Mandalorians.  Can anyone point me to a good Mandalorian EU story/novel?

 Spoiler free for the ST

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Bester said:

I've always been interested in the Mandalorians.  Can anyone point me to a good Mandalorian EU story/novel?

Yes.

 

Jango Fett: Open Seasons is really good, and so is the companion PS2/Gamecube game Bounty Hunter. So are the KotOR comics, some of which feature Mandalorians quite heavily, not to mention the games. There are a couple old issues of the Marvel Star Wars comics from way back (68 and 69) that deal with them, as well, and also the Tales of the Jedi comic from the 90s has a couple issues that deal with them.

There are a few episodes of The Clone Wars cartoon that feature them, but in a way that is pretty different from what one would expect, hopefully it's not a permanent change, but still...

There are also a plethora of novels by Karen Traviss dealing with the Mandalorians that I absolutely hate. I feel like she really ruined them by exploring every little bit of their culture, giving them an actual language (the first almost fully-formed Star Wars language), and generally going against what they always stood for. The whole thing about the Mandalorians is that they were cool because they were mysterious and secretive and we didn't know much about them, like with Boba Fett, she threw all that to the wind and completely described almost every little detail of them, which took away that mystery and intrigue and made them accessible to all the idiots out there who are not deserving.

 

Plus she made Boba Fett cry in one of her books, which is not cool.

 

My suggestion is that you first read up on the earlier stuff, to get an idea of how the Mandalorians really are, and then, if you positively must, read Karen Traviss' books. That should show you the differences in how the Mandalorians should be seen, and how she twisted them and made them ugly. My only consolation is that she ragequit writing them after Lucasfilm decided to do the Clone Wars episodes with them and she didn't like the changes, so now her continuity is up for grabs for a better author to tackle.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Tyrphanax said:

The whole thing about the Mandalorians is that they were cool because they were mysterious and secretive and we didn't know much about them, like with Boba Fett, she threw all that to the wind and completely described almost every little detail of them, which took away that mystery and intrigue and made them accessible to all the idiots out there who are not deserving.

We're no elitists. Not at all.

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Well look at it this way: All the pre-Traviss Mandalorian stuff is like the OT, right? It's awesome, intriguing, interesting, exciting, and all that. Then along she comes and she makes a "Special Edition" of the pre-established continuity, changing a lot of it to the very core. Then she goes on to take this new retcon and design another series around those changes.

Then, a new generation of fans comes up, having been raised on this retconned universe, and that's all you see. It's like talking to SE or PT gushers; they just take the word of this author as true because it's been made accessible to them and ignore all the stuff that made the Mandalorians great in the first place.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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