imperialscum said:
darklordoftech, I became extremely curious as to why you dislike Sith, red lightsbares and such?
Just FYI, he's not the only one. I also dislike the whole "Sith only use red lightsabers" thing.
So do I. I would also like if there were more lightsabre colours (or that they were more common). It would be interesting to see more purple, yellow, white, etc. lightsabres and different shades of blue, green, and red.
Kind of like Gantoris having a purple lightsaber in KJA trilogy.
And everyone hates KJA.
Lucas expressly stated that the good guys only have green or blue, and that the bad guys are red only.
I remember Kotor had 3 colors and they were by class like an RPG thing. the only one besides blue and green was yellow.
Kotor II allowed your past lightsaber and lightsaber build to be multiple colors but in both Kotor I and II red is pretty much a Sith color.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
I don't particularly care for how much Bioware decided to mimic the original storyline with Vitiate being a more feeble version of Palpatine and Malgus more or less being stylistically similar to Vader. While Malgus is an interesting character, Vitiate exhibited all of Palpatine's similarities but none of the feats of power/diabolical vibes of Palpatine. He came across more as a stoic academic content with letting the Dark council control affairs, while he attempted to achieve immortality.
For the Legacy era, while I think Caedus's fall was more interesting than the prequel's winy Anakin, there wasn't too much in that era that compares to a the KOTOR era. Krayt was weak, Lumiya was the writer's efforts to bridge the post-Imperial era, and she isn't special in any regard either. Also much like the terrible PT Jedi, there are far too many Jedi in Luke's praxeum who do little to nothing to advance the story itself. Jaina is useless, Katarn is boring, and Kyp is boring as well. Overall, I have no real desire to check out the Legacy era.
darklordoftech said:
imperialscum said:
darklordoftech, I became extremely curious as to why you dislike Sith, red lightsbares and such?
Because they cheapen a lot of the characters and often feel out-of-place. Palaptine shouldn't be the product of an ancient lineage and the idea of two immortal factions who keep on going through the same motions over and over and yet continuing to believe it won't happen again makes no sense. As for red lightsabers, there's a lack of consistency as to when the Sith started using them. Some places imply that Palpatine started it while others have the Sith using red lightsabers thousands of years earlier.
I think Palpatine being Sith is good. And I like Sith, especially how they are portrayed in KOTR1 (KOTOR2 not) and especially in SWTOR. I really enjoyed SWTOR. It was the first Star Wars game that I could properly play Sith and and imperial. The only thing I hate is the immortal Emperor guy.
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RicOlie_2 said:
So do I. I would also like if there were more lightsabre colours (or that they were more common). It would be interesting to see more purple, yellow, white, etc. lightsabres and different shades of blue, green, and red.
The lack of multiple lightsaber colours is actually one of the beefs I have with the PT. I'd already become acquainted with the EU prior to seeing any of the prequels, and one of the things I immediately loved about it were all the lightsaber colours the Jedi got to play with.
When AOTC established the rule that Jedi only carried blue and green lightsabers -- and when that rule spread to the EU -- that's when my distaste for the PT really began.
skyjedi2005 said:
Kind of like Gantoris having a purple lightsaber in KJA trilogy.
And everyone hates KJA.
The problems with KJA do not lie with the lightsaber colours he's given his characters; his stories would be just as weak (weaker, IMO) if all his Force-using characters carried only blue, green, and red lightsabers.
The TOR Sith, their Emperor, and their Empire. They undermine the movies, TOTJ, and even KOTOR.
darklordoftech said:
The TOR Sith, their Emperor, and their Empire. They undermine the movies, TOTJ, and even KOTOR.
In what way?
The question is for Sith and Empire, not for the Emperor btw.
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imperialscum said:
darklordoftech said:
The TOR Sith, their Emperor, and their Empire. They undermine the movies, TOTJ, and even KOTOR.
In what way?
The question is for Sith and Empire, not for the Emperor btw.
Disconnects the Mandalorian Wars from the Great Sith War and without them, there couldn't be an Emperor.
imperialscum said:
darklordoftech said:
The TOR Sith, their Emperor, and their Empire. They undermine the movies, TOTJ, and even KOTOR.
In what way?
The question is for Sith and Empire, not for the Emperor btw.
Though I haven't played the game, I can immediately recognize how TOR undermines TOTJ just by looking at screencaps and reading various synopses across the 'Net.
The Sith Empire in the game is supposed to be a reinvigorated remnant of the Sith Empire that appears in The Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire storylines. The Sith in those stories, though, were biological Sith -- with red skin, pointed chins, simian facial features, etc. -- and weilded crystalline swords. But the Sith in TOR are just like the Sith depicted in post-PT storylines -- belonging to many different species, weilding red lightsabers, using the "Darth" title, etc, etc.
One's left wondering why the creators of TOR even bothered to tie their Sith directly to the Sith of the old Sith Empire if they weren't even going to adhere to how those Sith were originally depicted.
DuracellEnergizer said:
imperialscum said:
darklordoftech said:
The TOR Sith, their Emperor, and their Empire. They undermine the movies, TOTJ, and even KOTOR.
In what way?
The question is for Sith and Empire, not for the Emperor btw.
Though I haven't played the game, I can immediately recognize how TOR undermines TOTJ just by looking at screencaps and reading various synopses across the 'Net.
The Sith Empire in the game is supposed to be a reinvigorated remnant of the Sith Empire that appears in The Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire storylines. The Sith in those stories, though, were biological Sith -- with red skin, pointed chins, simian facial features, etc. -- and weilded crystalline swords. But the Sith in TOR are just like the Sith depicted in post-PT storylines -- belonging to many different species, weilding red lightsabers, using the "Darth" title, etc, etc.
One's left wondering why the creators of TOR even bothered to tie their Sith directly to the Sith of the old Sith Empire if they weren't even going to adhere to how those Sith were originally depicted.
I am not an expert of pre-KOTOR EU but I am pretty sure you are wrong about Sith being biologically pure Sith at the time of Naga Sadow. Sadow was a mix between original Sith and human... as almost all other Sith at that time. I am not sure about this again, but the EU story goes that some exiled Jedi mingled with them thousands of years before. All this was not established in TOR btw. TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes. What TOR tried to do was connecting all the previously established EU mess to somehow make sense.
As for Empire having many species, that is just wrong. TOR portrays the Empire extremely anti-alien (Sith are not counted as aliens of course).
Btw have you seen this Galactic History from the SWTOR website? If not you may go through them and see how they connected everything.
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imperialscum said: I am not an expert of pre-KOTOR EU but I am pretty sure you are wrong about Sith being biologically pure Sith at the time of Naga Sadow. Sadow was a mix between original Sith and human... as almost all other Sith at that time. I am not sure about this again, but the EU story goes that some exiled Jedi mingled with them thousands of years before. All this was not established in TOR btw. TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes. What TOR tried to do was connecting all the previously established EU mess to somehow make sense.
The change in the genetic makeup of the Sith had already been explained by Exar Kun and Revan. TOR's Empire just complicates things further.
darklordoftech said:
imperialscum said: I am not an expert of pre-KOTOR EU but I am pretty sure you are wrong about Sith being biologically pure Sith at the time of Naga Sadow. Sadow was a mix between original Sith and human... as almost all other Sith at that time. I am not sure about this again, but the EU story goes that some exiled Jedi mingled with them thousands of years before. All this was not established in TOR btw. TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes. What TOR tried to do was connecting all the previously established EU mess to somehow make sense.
The change in the genetic makeup of the Sith had already been explained by Exar Kun and Revan. TOR's Empire just complicates things further.
Well this might sound arrogant but I think SWTOR warped things up the best. I always felt that pre-KOTOR EU was kind of cheesy, especially in a visual sense (kind of referring to the TOTJ). I love how SWTOR used the good stuff from the established material and made it into something very enjoyable, for me of course.
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imperialscum said:
darklordoftech said:
imperialscum said: I am not an expert of pre-KOTOR EU but I am pretty sure you are wrong about Sith being biologically pure Sith at the time of Naga Sadow. Sadow was a mix between original Sith and human... as almost all other Sith at that time. I am not sure about this again, but the EU story goes that some exiled Jedi mingled with them thousands of years before. All this was not established in TOR btw. TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes. What TOR tried to do was connecting all the previously established EU mess to somehow make sense.
The change in the genetic makeup of the Sith had already been explained by Exar Kun and Revan. TOR's Empire just complicates things further.
Well this might sound arrogant but I think SWTOR warped things up the best. I always felt that pre-KOTOR EU was kind of cheesy, especially in a visual sense (kind of referring to the TOTJ). I love how SWTOR used the good stuff from the established material and made it into something very enjoyable, for me of course.
KOTOR != SWTOR. KOTOR dealt with the "cheesiness" of TOTJ. SWTOR made a bunch of unnecessary changes to both TOTJ and KOTOR.
To me, TOTJ is the OT and TOR is the PT.
imperialscum said:
I am not an expert of pre-KOTOR EU but I am pretty sure you are wrong about Sith being biologically pure Sith at the time of Naga Sadow. Sadow was a mix between original Sith and human... as almost all other Sith at that time. I am not sure about this again, but the EU story goes that some exiled Jedi mingled with them thousands of years before.
Yes, you're right -- the Sith of the Sith Empire weren't all pure Sith. I was generalizing, though, as most of the lower-ranking Sith appeared to be pure Sith with only the Lords showing any mixed heritage, and even then, Naga Sadow is the only one who really has any human features.
TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes.
In other words, they're watering down what was once a unique take on the Sith in order to mesh it with the prequels because the prequels are just oh-so-good and everything has to reflect it.
Yuck.
As for Empire having many species, that is just wrong. TOR portrays the Empire extremely anti-alien (Sith are not counted as aliens of course).
Well, I was going off of this picture.
And she's a Zabrak, not a human or Sith (as an aside, I have to say I love the purple lightsaber).
Btw have you seen this Galactic History from the SWTOR website? If not you may go through them and see how they connected everything.
I gave up caring about the modern EU and its plethora of stupid "square peg through a round hole" retcons years ago.
DuracellEnergizer said:
TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes.
In other words, they're watering down what was once a unique take on the Sith in order to mesh it with the prequels because the prequels are just oh-so-good and everything has to reflect it.
Yuck.
Why prequels? Although not said on screen, Vader and Palpatine were Sith in OT... long before the prequels came out. Then TOTJ made a story where Sith became red skinned aliens. Someone had to connect the dots then. TOR did it pretty well.
DuracellEnergizer said:
As for Empire having many species, that is just wrong. TOR portrays the Empire extremely anti-alien (Sith are not counted as aliens of course).
Well, I was going off of this picture.
And she's a Zabrak, not a human or Sith (as an aside, I have to say I love the purple lightsaber).
That is a promotional material. If you played the game you would quickly get the proper feel. Though the game allows to pick non-human and non-sith, it is purely to satisfy the players who demand customisation. It does not serve the story at all (maybe for Inquisitor storyline a little, but it pretty much opposes Warrior and Agent).
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I admit I was reluctant to play SWTOR at the beginning but now if I am honest it is my favourite Star Wars game.
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imperialscum said: Why prequels? Although not said on screen, Vader and Palpatine were Sith in OT... long before the prequels came out. Then TOTJ made a story where Sith became red skinned aliens. Someone had to connect the dots then. TOR did it pretty well.
TOTJ and KOTOR connected the same dots much better. Both TOTJ and KOTOR explained that the influence of Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Revan, etc. caused the Sith to stop being red-skinned aliens.
On another note, when Lucas said that anybody can use The Force in 1981, it was in response to the question of whether or not Palpatine was ever a Jedi. The implication is that Palpatine isn't a Sith.
darklordoftech said:
imperialscum said: Why prequels? Although not said on screen, Vader and Palpatine were Sith in OT... long before the prequels came out. Then TOTJ made a story where Sith became red skinned aliens. Someone had to connect the dots then. TOR did it pretty well.
TOTJ and KOTOR connected the same dots much better. Both TOTJ and KOTOR explained that the influence of Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Revan, etc. caused the Sith to stop being red-skinned aliens.
On another note, when Lucas said that anybody can use The Force in 1981, it was in response to the question of whether or not Palpatine was ever a Jedi. The implication is that Palpatine isn't a Sith.
I am sorry but KOTOR did not connect any dots at all. In fact if we ignore SWTOR, it made very little sense as to why Revan, Malak and thier ex-republic fleet would even call themselves "Sith". If you think about it, it is quite dumb really. If anything, they should call themselves Rakata. SWTOR again tried to fix this huge plot hole that is usually completely overlooked.
It was SWTOR that properly explained as to why would humans who call themselves Sith, all the way down to Vader, personally hate the Republic and were constantly seeking for a revenge. That "revenge" made no sense prior to SWTOR.
As for "everyone can use the force", Palpatine was not in the context of that quote/discussion.
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imperialscum said: Palpatine was not in the context of that quote/discussion.
"Anakin Skywalker starting hanging out with the Emperor, who at this point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official."
imperialscum said:
DuracellEnergizer said:
TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes.
In other words, they're watering down what was once a unique take on the Sith in order to mesh it with the prequels because the prequels are just oh-so-good and everything has to reflect it.
Yuck.
Why prequels?
Because the concept that almost all Sith wear black, use only red lightsabers, have pale skin, have yellow eyes, have facial tattoos, and go around with "Darth" as a part of their names is a PT invention.
imperialscum said:
Although not said on screen, Vader and Palpatine were Sith in OT... long before the prequels came out.
Vader was a Sith, but Palpatine wasn't never identified as a Sith -- not in the movies, not in novelizations, nowhere. Even in the early EU, he wasn't characterized as a Sith.
All he ever was shown to be was a powerful darksider who managed to place Vader under his control.
imperialscum said:
Then TOTJ made a story where Sith became red skinned aliens. Someone had to connect the dots then. TOR did it pretty well.
The various comics and sourcebooks had already established that following the Great Hyperspace War, the Sith Empire rapidly fell apart and their race eventually died out. Their dark arts survived, though, in numerous tomes and talismans (and with the spirits of long-dead Sith Lords), and those eventually found their ways into the hands of fallen Dark Jedi like Freedon Nadd, who continued the Sith traditions by passing their knowledge down to their descendants and followers.
TOR's "connection of the dots" is pure prequelization, plain and simple.
DuracellEnergizer said:
As for Empire having many species, that is just wrong. TOR portrays the Empire extremely anti-alien (Sith are not counted as aliens of course).
Well, I was going off of this picture.
And she's a Zabrak, not a human or Sith (as an aside, I have to say I love the purple lightsaber).
That is a promotional material. If you played the game you would quickly get the proper feel. Though the game allows to pick non-human and non-sith, it is purely to satisfy the players who demand customisation. It does not serve the story at all (maybe for Inquisitor storyline a little, but it pretty much opposes Warrior and Agent).
So I guess the purple lightsaber isn't a real part of the story, either. Pity.
DuracellEnergizer said:
imperialscum said:
DuracellEnergizer said:
TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes.
In other words, they're watering down what was once a unique take on the Sith in order to mesh it with the prequels because the prequels are just oh-so-good and everything has to reflect it.
Yuck.
Why prequels?
Because the concept that almost all Sith wear black, use only red lightsabers, have pale skin, have yellow eyes, have facial tattoos, and go around with "Darth" as a part of their names is a PT invention.
Vader in OT: wears black, red lightsabre, pale skin.
Palpatine in OT: wears black, pale skin.
And btw in SWTOR a lot of Sith do not wear black, do not have pale skin, and actually some have purple and yellow lightsabres. As for yellow eyes, they don't even exist as a part of darkside transformation of you character. Once you progress on the dark side level your character eyes change first change to orange and in the end to red. And title "Darth" is held only by the most powerful Sith...
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imperialscum said:
DuracellEnergizer said:
imperialscum said:
DuracellEnergizer said:
TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes.
In other words, they're watering down what was once a unique take on the Sith in order to mesh it with the prequels because the prequels are just oh-so-good and everything has to reflect it.
Yuck.
Why prequels?
Because the concept that almost all Sith wear black, use only red lightsabers, have pale skin, have yellow eyes, have facial tattoos, and go around with "Darth" as a part of their names is a PT invention.
Vader in OT: wears black, red lightsabre, pale skin.
Palpatine in OT: wears black, pale skin.
That's only two characters. I'm not prepared to jump to the conclusion that every other darksider in the universe of the OOT goes around looking like Death just because they do.
And btw in SWTOR a lot of Sith do not wear black, do not have pale skin, and actually some have purple and yellow lightsabres.
Well, that's nice. I just wish they were the rule rather than the exception.
As for yellow eyes, they don't even exist as a part of darkside transformation of you character. Once you progress on the dark side level your character eyes change first change to orange and in the end to red.
Same difference.
And title "Darth" is held only by the most powerful Sith...
It's still stupid.
I'm nostalgic for the pre-AOTC days when there weren't any armies of saber wielders and there was variety among the few Force-users who existed.