What do you HATE about the EU? — Page 11

Pre-Bane Darths may never have made an appearance, either.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Pre-Bane Darths may never have made an appearance, either.

An RPG sourcebook published in 2001 established that there was a Darth Rivan before Darth Bane.

I also meant to say that before KOTOR was released, Ziost was thought to be the homeworld of the Sith while Korriban was just a tombworld. It makes the whole Korriban/Moraband controversy hilarious.

The words "official continuation" on the back cover of Heir to the Empire. The canon nazis have used it to justify all kinds of things.

imperialscum said:

I am still wondering though... I have a hunch that you and darklordoftech haven't even played KOTOR and SWTOR (at least not through it). It seems like you are hating something you don't exactly know much about.

No, I haven't played either game, and don't have much wish to -- I'm more-or-less a retro gamer, so I prefer to stick with older games, and I don't think I'd have the patience to get through an RPG-style game, anyway.

As for your main argument, I don't hate KOTOR; I even accept certain tidbits introduced in the game -- the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War, in particular -- as canon within my personal SW Universe. I'm just not fond of the way the Sith are portrayed in the video game.

TOR, on the other hand, I do hate. I'm sick to death of the nth amount of Sith Wars that are cluttering up the EU, and this Sith War in particular pisses me off, as it purports to bring back the original Sith Empire but only features more generic KISS rejects with red lightsabers. Playing the game wouldn't change my opinion of it, since I find the concept and the plot themselves rotten to the core.

I have played KOTOR and SWTOR, and I hated what I saw.

I'm also sick of 25,000 years of history being reduced to Revan.

imperialscum said:

You accept KOTOR which just throws in a few "generic KISS rejects" that mysteriously (i.e. completely unexplained by the game) call themselves Sith and exclusively use red lightsabres.

In my canon, Revan and Malak aren't Darths, aren't Sith, and don't weild red lightsabers.

But on the other hand, you don't accept SWTOR which brings back Sith (not just humans, but also redskin ones) that use red lightsabres (there are quite a few Sith in TOR who don't use red lightsabre btw).

It doesn't matter if biological Sith make an appearance if they're portrayed as KISS rejects with lightsabers instead of sword-and-sorcery type warriors with alchemically forged swords.

And FYI, I'm aware that a few Sith in TOR use other lightsaber colours beyond red. Red still remains the primary colour they use.

Judging from your posts, you seem to hate human Sith.

I don't hate human Sith. I hate it when a writer decides to use the Sith Empire in their story without sticking to how the Sith of the Sith Empire were originally depicted.

Assumingly because you like TOTJ, which mysteriously made Sith redskin species (it has been a while since I read it but I am pretty sure they offer no explanation).

Following the Great Hyperspace War, the Sith Empire crumbled and the Sith race eventually became extinct. Their lore and artifacts survived, however, and found their ways into the hands of Dark Jedi like Freedon Nadd, who then passed their knowledge down to their descendants and apprentices, keeping the Sith legacy alive.

Not only can this information be inferred from what is revealed in the TOTJ comics, but it is concretely established in the Tales from the Jedi Companion.

If we go back to the point where the concept of Sith was actually created, namely OT. Vader was not a redskin alien. He was a human and in fact unmasked he looked pretty much like what you would refer to as "generic KISS reject".

Unmasked Vader looks like a sad, damaged old man, not a KISS reject, as he doesn't have a bunch of stupid black tattoos criss-crossing his face.

So why didn't you protest when TOTJ made Sith into redskin aliens and contradicted what we see in OT? Why did you just accept the crap that completely contradicted to what you knew from OT, and why did you begin to hate everything that actually goes in parallel with OT?

Because TOTJ clearly established a difference between the Sith of the Sith Empire and the later Sith like Vader and never tried to confuse the two. TOR -- like almost all current stories about the Sith -- justs sticks generic PT-inspired Sith into any nook and cranny it can find, context or original intent of whatever works it may be going off of be damned.

SWTOR, if anything, just tried to salvage the mess TOTJ made and connect the dots the best it could.

TOTJ made no mess. If anything, it left some historical blanks to fill -- blanks that probably would have been filled if the bullshit prequels hadn't come out and taken over the comics.

The reason that KOTOR provides for Revan and Malak calling themselves Sith is that they got what was left of Exar Kun's followers to serve them.

I may be going a little meta here, but what I really hate about the EU is that since the announcement that only the PT, TCW, Rebels, the OT, and the ST count, there are people that continue to even have a conversation about the 300 books, 100 video games, and 5000 comics that are all now just a pile of professional fan fic.

I was worried that it might be too meta to discuss EU that way.  I dipped my toe, and this obviously isn't the place for that conversation.  I'm enjoying reading the conversation nonetheless.  :D 

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I don't hate human Sith. I hate it when a writer decides to use the Sith Empire in their story without sticking to how the Sith of the Sith Empire were originally depicted.

Please stop referring TOTJ Sith as "original Sith". Like I said, Sith were originally depicted in OT and are very different from what TOTJ turned them into much later.

Please read more carefully. I was referring to the Sith of the Sith Empire -- AKA the Sith who show up in The Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire -- not the Sith in general.

There are two ways to deal with TOTJ. First, ignore it for the most part like KOTOR did. Second, consider it and make some evolution from it, like SWTOR did.

You're ignoring a third option -- running with what TOTJ set up.

So you are bothered by the black tattoos. Very few human Sith In SWTOR have any kind of tattoos (and if they do they have red tattoos). Probably you just saw some Zabrak Sith and made the wrong generalisation. Zabrak tattoos don't have anything to do with Sith anyway. They are part of their culture.

I don't just hate the black tattoos. I also hate the corpse-white skin, the glowing yellow/orange/red eyes, and the general Goth-like attire.

Btw I don't know the exact definitions of your terms "KISS reject" and "generic" but I would very much like to learn them.

A "KISS reject" is any character who looks like this

"Generic" refers to any Sith who fits this or any similar mold.

I really don't care how TOTJ justifies the meddling with the original Sith concept (i.e. OT). However painful this might be to you, PT Sith are by a lightyear closer to the original OT Sith.

What was the "original Sith concept", BTW? The term doesn't even show up in the OT. Are you referring to the earlier rough drafts? Well, seeing as the Sith change shape and form between them, they're useless as a guide to the universe of the films themselves.

Face facts -- prior to TOTJ, "Sith" was an undefined, nebulous concept; Tom Veitch was the one to give the Sith a distinct culture and history.

I wonder why did TOTJ even had to call them Sith. Why not just name them something of its own since it would work just as well. Calling them Sith was bound to cause friction and trouble.

Perhaps Veitch and co. expected the readers to use a little imagination and deductive reasoning to fill in the gaps -- something you apparently are incapable of.

So if you follow your own principles, you wouldn't mind if a similar EU source made yet another version of Sith (just like TOTJ did) about 2,500 years before OT and 2,500 years after TOTJ. After all, if we gave TOTJ the right to do that why not to someone else, right? And since we don't want them to be "generic", they would be yet another aliens, this time green skinned four legged creatures wielding blasters (we wish to avoid red lightsabres, actually lightsabres altogether).

Sure, go ahead. Just don't attempt to link these Sith to the Sith that preceeded them.

Anzati. Star Wars does NOT need vampires.

KilroyMcFadden said:

I may be going a little meta here, but what I really hate about the EU is that since the announcement that only the PT, TCW, Rebels, the OT, and the ST count, there are people that continue to even have a conversation about the 300 books, 100 video games, and 5000 comics that are all now just a pile of professional fan fic.

 When was that announced?

I'm also not clear on your point. If an executive at Disney says they don't count, people should suddenly pretend that novels they've loved for decades never existed? 

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

There are two ways to deal with TOTJ. First, ignore it for the most part like KOTOR did. Second, consider it and make some evolution from it, like SWTOR did.

You're ignoring a third option -- running with what TOTJ set up.

No I am not ignoring it. It is basically the second option without any evolution/development, which is hands down stupid and unacceptable. Thousand years ago in Europe people wore armour and fought with swords... in your version, soldiers in WW2 should wore armour and fought with swords as well.

 I fail to see how this has anything to do with Sith aesthetics/characterization.

DuracellEnergizer said:

I also hate the corpse-white skin, the glowing yellow/orange/red eyes, and the general Goth-like attire.

Here is one of them:

 

That's a single character, who was never identified as a Sith prior to the release of TPM, whose body was ravaged from a lifetime spent in uncommonly extreme devotion to the dark side.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Face facts -- prior to TOTJ, "Sith" was an undefined, nebulous concept; Tom Veitch was the one to give the Sith a distinct culture and history.

Just because the name didn't appear on-screen it doesn't mean the concept wasn't there. Prior to TOTJ, if we take Vader as a reference, we were safe to assume Sith was sort of a dark-side centred religion (an obvious counterpart to Jedi) rather than species/culture.

Nothing about what little was revealed about the Sith prior to TOTJ precludes the possibility that the Sith started out as a species/culture before evolving into a religion.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Perhaps Veitch and co. expected the readers to use a little imagination and deductive reasoning to fill in the gaps -- something you apparently are incapable of.

I am capable and so were the developers of SWTOR. It is just you who is unwilling to go along with anything reasonable. You insist on using the TOTJ Sith (which were almost extinct) 1000 years later without any evolution/development.

Why should I? Ever since TPM was released, the Sith have become shallow, one-dimensional, interchangeable clowns who are evil for the sake of being evil, and I for one am sick and tired of see them overrun each and every era and aspect of the EU.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Sure, go ahead. Just don't attempt to link these Sith to the Sith that preceeded them.

How convenient... in one instance you accused me of lack of imagination in connecting the dots and filling the gaps and in the next instance you forbid any kind of linking at all.

When it comes down to stuff I utterly loathe, yeah, it does. If I had been in control of the EU back when TPM was released, I would have immediately made the PT Sith a complete and seperate organization from the Sith Empire and Brotherhood of the Sith, keeping the wheat completely seperate from the chaff.

DuracellEnergizer said: the PT Sith a complete and seperate organization from the Sith Empire and Brotherhood of the Sith, keeping the wheat completely seperate from the chaff.

The first Essential Chronology book states that the PT Sith are Neo-Sith (this is where the "Sith is an idea" morons came from). This was accepted until KOTOR came along.

TheBoost said:

KilroyMcFadden said:

I may be going a little meta here, but what I really hate about the EU is that since the announcement that only the PT, TCW, Rebels, the OT, and the ST count, there are people that continue to even have a conversation about the 300 books, 100 video games, and 5000 comics that are all now just a pile of professional fan fic.

 When was that announced?

I'm also not clear on your point. If an executive at Disney says they don't count, people should suddenly pretend that novels they've loved for decades never existed? 

1. I saw it in a tweet that was captured and posted either here or at TFN by someone from Lucasfilms (Dave Filoni?).  I'm not going to be able to link because it was weeks ago and is lost to me.  

2. The point is that I was answering the OP... "What do you hate about the EU?" answer being, that people continue to take it seriously after it has been rendered a pile of pro fan fic, referring back to the "nothing counts anymore" nature of the tweet to which I referred.

Tobar said:

KilroyMcFadden said:

1. I saw it in a tweet that was captured and posted either here or at TFN by someone from Lucasfilms (Dave Filoni?).  I'm not going to be able to link because it was weeks ago and is lost to me.  

2. The point is that I was answering the OP... "What do you hate about the EU?" answer being, that people continue to take it seriously after it has been rendered a pile of pro fan fic, referring back to the "nothing counts anymore" nature of the tweet to which I referred.

 Again, no such announcement was ever made.

What was announced is that the tiered classification system for the EU has been eliminated. Now whether it be movie, game or book they're all equal in the Star Wars canon now. With this, some material will most likely be labeled completely non-canon but what that material is has not been announced.

 You might be right.  Perhaps the captured tweet I saw was fake?  Perfectly possible. 

Tobar said:

KilroyMcFadden said:

1. I saw it in a tweet that was captured and posted either here or at TFN by someone from Lucasfilms (Dave Filoni?).  I'm not going to be able to link because it was weeks ago and is lost to me.  

2. The point is that I was answering the OP... "What do you hate about the EU?" answer being, that people continue to take it seriously after it has been rendered a pile of pro fan fic, referring back to the "nothing counts anymore" nature of the tweet to which I referred.

 Again, no such announcement was ever made.

What was announced is that the tiered classification system for the EU has been eliminated. Now whether it be movie, game or book they're all equal in the Star Wars canon now. With this, some material will most likely be labeled completely non-canon but what that material is has not been announced.

Exactly.

Everything made from here on out is either canon or non-canon. What remains to be seen is whether they'll leave the existing EU intact as canon or if it will retroactively be rendered non-canon or a toss up of both.

The biggest deciding factor is gonna be just how much Abrams and Kasdan care about the post-RotJ continuity. If their script for Episode VII is conveniently compatible with the books, great. If not, then I doubt they'd want to change even a single thing about the movie just to make it fit.

The tweet Kilroy refers to was from Pablo Hidalgo back in December. It caused quite a stir because he basically said the only things that were ever "canon" are the movies and the clone wars series. In other words "only what's up on screen." Everything else in this model is merely "continuity."