logo Sign In

What do you think of the Prequel Trilogy? a general discussion thread — Page 5

Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

Let me ask you a question. If Lucas never came out with the Limited Editions and remained firm in his decision never to release the theatrical versions, could you live with the Special Editions as the only version of the Original Trilogy on DVD and future formats?



I watched the 2004 ROTJ SE once, and once I saw Hayden as that ghost, it totally turned me off from ever watching that movie again. That one change is insulting to any fan who saw the movie in 1983, cause once you start changing characters in the OT movies, you HAVE to release the original versions in the same set cause it is so jarring. I always loved the ending of ROTJ, I am big on the montages even in the PT movies as they are all very good too. There was nothing better that gave the trilogy closure then seeing grandfather-like Anakin there next to Yoda & Alec Guiness, and just that one change prevents me from enjoying the movie, cause that is not special effects he couldn't do in 1983, that is now changing the context of a movie.

Could I live with ANH & ESB circa 1997 versions, I probably could, and if I could get the 1997 ROTJ with Sebastian Shaw, that would be sort my deal with Lucas to meet in the middle of what I love and his vision. But the bottom line is he keeps tinkering with these movies, and that one change just turned me off cause it was just a ploy to tie up the saga visually cause he couldn't do it through writing the movies. And you know Jumpman, he will never stop, so why should I have to keep dealling with his changing vision?

Author
Time
CO,

Again, Lucas is accomodated himself. Who are we to say what he can change and what he can't change? It's his films. If he feels the need to change them to satisfy his creative mind, why can't he do that? He owns everything Star Wars.

You're right though. If the special editions never existed, we wouldn't have this. But for me, no matter what form, the Original Trilogy is the Original Trilogy. Updated effects can't change the fact that the story, plot, and characters remain the same. The outcome at the end of it all is the same. The feel is the same.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
CO,

I saw Jedi in '83. Having Hayden at the end didn't insult me. It made sense to me, after having seen the Prequels. And that's what this is really, truly about. It's about Lucas completing it as a Saga with the "inferior" Prequels than letting the Original Trilogy stand on it's own....

As for him stopping, I personally believe that the changes that are coming in the upcoming Saga Boxset will be so small that they won't even be worth arguing over. See, you feel that the changes destroyed the credibility of Star Wars...what they were at their core foundation. I feel that the core foundation is still intact, whether it theatrical version or special edition. The core foundation hasn't changed in 30 years....

Plus, you don't have to continue on, you know. You probably have a few copies on VHS or Laserdisc, I'm guessing. If you do, continue to love the theatrical versions in that format. Nothing is stopping you.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
You can piss and moan about it until the cows come home but you have to at least respect his decision and see it from his point of view. If you do, and you still disagree obviously you do, then so be it. I respect his right to make decisions about how he manages his own affairs, but I don't respect the decisions themselves. Luca$h has done his own share of "pissing and moaning" that he hasn't been able to "realise his vision". Well, boo hoo hoo. If he wants to obsess over one project for his whole career, then that's his problem. If he blocks the satisfactory release of the original cuts of the OOT then that's something that affects me. It's a selfish decision on his part and I'm not going to let him off with it.Originally posted by: Jumpman
But, I don't think Lucas is going to lose sleep if he loses some fans over his decisions.
Neither am I. So that's alright, then...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
Again, Lucas is accomodated himself. Who are we to say what he can change and what he can't change? It's his films.

I'm sure that Marquand, Kurtz, Kersherner, and the thousands of people who worked on the films would love to hear that.

He owns everything Star Wars.


I doubt that that thrill other people who worked on it.

I saw Jedi in '83. Having Hayden at the end didn't insult me. It made sense to me, after having seen the Prequels. And that's what this is really, truly about. It's about Lucas completing it as a Saga with the "inferior" Prequels than letting the Original Trilogy stand on it's own....


OK. I want a good OOT DVD release to watch for myself. That's all. Lucas can do whatever he wants to "his" films.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

Author
Time
Mike,

So essentially, you're saying that because so many people contributed to Star Wars, that Lucas, being the creator and owner of it all...the man who envisioned everything, he has to accomodate them before himself? That's what you're really say. Their contributions far outweigh Lucas'....
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time

Originally posted by: Jumpman
Mike,

So essentially, you're saying that because so many people contributed to Star Wars, that Lucas, being the creator and owner of it all...the man who envisioned everything, he has to accomodate them before himself? That's what you're really say. Their contributions far outweigh Lucas'....

No, I'm saying that without their contributions, the films would not exist at all, and that saying that their work doesn't exist anymore to accomadate what he wants is insulting. How about this: a DVD release with both. This is what it was, this is what I want it to be. Many, many people prefer the OOT. Lucas knows that if he gives them the choice, they will watch that instead. So he doesn't. To say nothing of the fact that Lucas didn't produce, write, or direct ESB. Or that none of the sequels or prequels would even exist without the money the fans who prefer the OOT have given him over the years.

I want a good OOT release to watch myself. Beyond that, I don't care.

But, I don't think Lucas is going to lose sleep if he loses some fans over his decisions.


Many, many fans. He doesn't care about anyone or anyhting except making the films fit what he wants them to be. Which is fine, except I don't have the choice to watch them the way that I want.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

Author
Time
Mike,

Alot of their "original" work still exists in the special editions, especially in Episode V. As for Kersh, he knew what he was getting into when he directed Episode V. You don't think he saw it as an opportunity to further help his career out if he was a hired hand in the biggest sequel of all time at the point?

And Lucas did produce (executive considering it's his money they're using) and write Episode V. Episode V doesn't work without Lucas' draft after Leigh Brackett died.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
Mike,

Alot of their "original" work still exists in the special editions. As for Kersh, he knew what he was getting into when he directed Episode V.

And Lucas did produce (executive considering it's his money they're using) and write Episode V. Episode V doesn't work without Lucas'
draft after Leigh Brackett died.


A lot of it doesn't too. I just want my own release to watch, that's all. Why is that when fans want to see the original, we are denying Lucas his vision? He can have it. I just want the originals to watch, that's all. In high quality.

It seems that we must agree to disagree.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

Author
Time
Mike,

High quality. That's the difference. No Star Wars fan of the Original Trilogy should ever say they can't watch their version of the films....
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
Mike,

High quality. That's the difference. No Star Wars fan of the Original Trilogy should ever say they can't watch their version of the films....


I can only watch my version of the films in a substandard transfer, that's the difference. When I get a high-quality release of the originals, then I'll watch them, Lucas will watch the SEs, and everybody will be happy. The problem is that Lucas doesn't want that to happen. I respect him. I just want him to respect me.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
High quality. That's the difference. No Star Wars fan of the Original Trilogy should ever say they can't watch their version of the films....
You were just saying that we had to respect his decisions.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: Jumpman
High quality. That's the difference. No Star Wars fan of the Original Trilogy should ever say they can't watch their version of the films....
You were just saying that we had to respect his decisions.


I do. I just want a high quality OOT to watch on DVD, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, and whatever other formats come along. I just want the choice. That's all. I don't agree with his decisions, but I respect them.

You and I can easily agree to disagree. I just want a good OOT DVD release. That's all. That's it. Fair enough?

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

Again, Lucas is accomodated himself. Who are we to say what he can change and what he can't change? It's his films. If he feels the need to change them to satisfy his creative mind, why can't he do that? He owns everything Star Wars.

You're right though. If the special editions never existed, we wouldn't have this. But for me, no matter what form, the Original Trilogy is the Original Trilogy. Updated effects can't change the fact that the story, plot, and characters remain the same. The outcome at the end of it all is the same. The feel is the same.



Nobody has a problem with the SE as long as the O-OT gets released with the same respect. I actually like the LOTR theatrical versions, but most of my friends like the EE, so that fanbase is split too, but the release of LOTR Trilogy last month had both versions in the same boxset, cause Peter Jackson doesn't have a complex about which version the fans love.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

I saw Jedi in '83. Having Hayden at the end didn't insult me. It made sense to me, after having seen the Prequels. And that's what this is really, truly about. It's about Lucas completing it as a Saga with the "inferior" Prequels than letting the Original Trilogy stand on it's own....

As for him stopping, I personally believe that the changes that are coming in the upcoming Saga Boxset will be so small that they won't even be worth arguing over. See, you feel that the changes destroyed the credibility of Star Wars...what they were at their core foundation. I feel that the core foundation is still intact, whether it theatrical version or special edition. The core foundation hasn't changed in 30 years....

Plus, you don't have to continue on, you know. You probably have a few copies on VHS or Laserdisc, I'm guessing. If you do, continue to love the theatrical versions in that format. Nothing is stopping you.



But that was never lucas intention of the SE. He says in the Laserdisk interview, he just wanted to change ANH back in early 90's mostly cause of MosEisley, and that is why ANH is the most changed. He never intended to changed ESB & ROTJ, he says it in the interview, so this thing about his vision is baloney. He put Hayden there as a visual gimmick cause he couldnt' write the PT to match the OT in his narrative. Younger Anakin makes no sense as a force ghost because it was old Anakin who was conflicted in ROTJ, who killed the sith and fullfilled the prophecy in ROTJ, and talked to Luke to redeem himself in ROTJ. That was a full character arc of Anakin, and he redeemed himself as an old man, by showing young Anakin, it defeats the purpose of ROTJ, cause Lucas is now saying they are two people Anakin/Vader, and the whole moral of the saga is they are the SAME PERSON.

Author
Time
Originally posted by: CO
Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

Again, Lucas is accomodated himself. Who are we to say what he can change and what he can't change? It's his films. If he feels the need to change them to satisfy his creative mind, why can't he do that? He owns everything Star Wars.

You're right though. If the special editions never existed, we wouldn't have this. But for me, no matter what form, the Original Trilogy is the Original Trilogy. Updated effects can't change the fact that the story, plot, and characters remain the same. The outcome at the end of it all is the same. The feel is the same.



Nobody has a problem with the SE as long as the O-OT gets released with the same respect. I actually like the LOTR theatrical versions, but most of my friends like the EE, so that fanbase is split too, but the release of LOTR Trilogy last month had both versions in the same boxset, cause Peter Jackson doesn't have a complex about which version the fans love.


Exactly. I don't like the SEs, but whatever Lucas does with them is his decision. I just want a high quality OOT DVD and HD release, that's all.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

Author
Time
CO,

The whole moral of the Saga doesn't change because Hayden represents Anakin at the end of Episode VI. It's still there. It's like having a dual personality, if you really want to get simple with it.

I believe the man Padme loved died in Episode III. I believe the man that destroyed the Emperor is the man Luke sees (when he takes of the helmet) but also the man as he once was....

Because the Jedi are the only ones who know of this power, isn't it possible to accept Anakin AS HE WAS when he was a Jedi and not when he was Sith? It's as if the Jedi and the Force granted Anakin special circumstances. That still doesn't change the fact that Anakin paid dearly for his mistakes in the past. He's not off the hook by any means...but he does stop the horror that he started and for that, he gets to become as he WAS...not what he had become....
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
I hope and pray that we can get a higher quality release of the O-OT, but I really don't think Lucas is worried about which one people will want to watch. I know there are a lot of people who really prefer the O-OT, but I don't think that makes up "most" of the people who want to buy Star Wars on DVD. I for one prefer the SE, and I have talked to a lot of people who are younger, who didn't grow up with the originals, who also prefer the newer versions.

As for the "dual persona" way of looking at things, I personaly still see Anakin and Vader as the same person. To me the point is everyone has that choice wether to be good or bad. Anakin chose to be good up until a certian point, then chose to become bad, then chose to become good again at the very end.

For me the reason why I prefer having Hayden in there is just because to me it visually represents the good man who was Luke's father before he had become Darth Vader. While Shaw was the face he had when he came back to the light, he still visually represents (to me) the twisted wreck he had become as Vader.

But to me it means the same thing as it did before, it's just before when we didn't have the prequels to show us what Anakin looked like before he was put into the suit, we could just assume Shaw with a full head of hair was how he looked before he went into the suit.

That said, I can see why others would prefer to have kept Shaw.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
"While Shaw was the face he had when he came back to the light, he still visually represents (to me) the twisted wreck he had become as Vader."

Bingo!
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
I prefer to have Shaw for that very reason. I think it gives a more potent representation of redemption to have that very man welcomed back into the good side of the Force, flaws and all. I think it diminishes the impact by only welcoming the young man that he was 25-ish years ago. That person didn't need redeeming.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

The whole moral of the Saga doesn't change because Hayden represents Anakin at the end of Episode VI. It's still there. It's like having a dual personality, if you really want to get simple with it.

I believe the man Padme loved died in Episode III. I believe the man that destroyed the Emperor is the man Luke sees (when he takes of the helmet) but also the man as he once was....

Because the Jedi are the only ones who know of this power, isn't it possible to accept Anakin AS HE WAS when he was a Jedi and not when he was Sith? It's as if the Jedi and the Force granted Anakin special circumstances. That still doesn't change the fact that Anakin paid dearly for his mistakes in the past. He's not off the hook by any means...but he does stop the horror that he started and for that, he gets to become as he WAS...not what he had become....



But what you don't understand that the man who was the sith for 20 years is the one who saved Luke & Fullfilled the prophecy, and that is what a strong image Shaw gives off at the end. Forget what we prefer, lets just look at logic. The thing about Darth Vader, and the whole moral of ROTJ is that even though Vader is this evil twisted man there is this OUNCE of goodness somewhere in him that does all these good things at the end to save his son. So the person never changed, he was still there all these years, or he wouldn't have been conflicted in ROTJ as Vader is during the whole movie. The reason he is conflicted is he is still Anakin Skywalker, and it is Luke that is making him realize that man never died. Seeing old Anakin confirms a true character arc for EVERYTHING he did, his love, his hate, his compassion, his sins, all of that is there with Shaw the character, but putting Hayden there you are throwing away 20 years of what that man did, including the end of ROTJ when he redeemed himself.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
"While Shaw was the face he had when he came back to the light, he still visually represents (to me) the twisted wreck he had become as Vader."

Bingo!



What Lucas is that? 1983, 1995, 1999, or 2005? Lucas could have easily put a 20 year old actor in 1983 ROTJ who resembled Luke to bridge his theory of what he thinks works now, but he didn't. There is a reason Lucas put grandfather Anakin in that force ghost, and it is explained in my previous post, and that is why I refuse to listen to any quote by Lucas cause he contradicts himself everytime he talks.


Author
Time
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I prefer to have Shaw for that very reason. I think it gives a more potent representation of redemption to have that very man welcomed back into the good side of the Force, flaws and all. I think it diminishes the impact by only welcoming the young man that he was 25-ish years ago. That person didn't need redeeming.
To me it was only the good part of Anakin that -deserved- redemption.

Also by giving Shaw a full head of hair and all his limbs, Lucas did come up with a representation of Anakin before he was in the suit. Age wasn't as important before because we didn't have the prequels to nail it all down.

Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Also by giving Shaw a full head of hair and all his limbs, Lucas did come up with a representation of Anakin before he was in the suit.
I regard the Force Spirit as the 'soul' of the person, therefore it doesn't have to outwardly show the mutilations the physical body underwent.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
I hope and pray that we can get a higher quality release of the O-OT, but I really don't think Lucas is worried about which one people will want to watch. I know there are a lot of people who really prefer the O-OT, but I don't think that makes up "most" of the people who want to buy Star Wars on DVD.

Perhaps, but the OOT has enough of an audience to make Lucas money, which is all he care about. And sales of 06 DVDs have proven that there is a market for the originals.

I for one prefer the SE, and I have talked to a lot of people who are younger, who didn't grow up with the originals, who also prefer the newer versions.

Ah, but where does that leave the historica signicance of Star Wars? How long will the younger generation be interested in Star Wars? Will they give it the same level of devotion long after we have gone? None of us will ge around long enough to know.

Updated effects can't change the fact that the story, plot, and characters remain the same. The outcome at the end of it all is the same. The feel is the same.

To you. Others may not feel the same.

Again, Lucas is accomodated himself. Who are we to say what he can change and what he can't change? It's his films. If he feels the need to change them to satisfy his creative mind, why can't he do that? He owns everything Star Wars.

Well, as we've all been saying, they're more his financially than artistically, but your are correct to a certain extent and I agree. Lucas has the right to do whatever he wants to the films. I just want a high quality OOT DVD release and HD and whatever else comes along.

You can piss and moan about it until the cows come home but you have to at least respect his decision and see it from his point of view. If you do, and you still disagree obviously you do, then so be it.

I disagree. So what? I couldn't stop the release of the SEs if I wanted to. That doesn't mean that I don't have the right to want the OOT in a version that meets industry standards. Surely, we can agree on that.

You probably have a few copies on VHS or Laserdisc, I'm guessing. If you do, continue to love the theatrical versions in that format. Nothing is stopping you.

For how long? How long until three of the most important films in history deteriorate away into nothing because their creator dislikes them? What about their influence and the people who's lives they touched? The filmmakers they inspired? Sooner or later, the tapes and LD will deteriorate. Then what? Lucas effectively 1984ed his films.

As for him stopping, I personally believe that the changes that are coming in the upcoming Saga Boxset will be so small that they won't even be worth arguing over. See, you feel that the changes destroyed the credibility of Star Wars...what they were at their core foundation. I feel that the core foundation is still intact, whether it theatrical version or special edition. The core foundation hasn't changed in 30 years....

In that case, why does anyone care? How about Han shooting first? The fact of the matter is that these changes alter what the films represent to some people. Does Lucas care? No. Should he? Perhaps not. He has his preferences, we have ours. If we had the OOT in high quality, we could just agree to disagree. But that doesn't mean that the originals just don't exist anymore.

As for Kersh, he knew what he was getting into when he directed Episode V.

And Marquand? He's tragically no longer around to ask, so we'll never know. And it called The Empire Striked Back. Just because something is legal does not make it right. Not to say that Lucas is doing something contrary to the laws of nature or is evil or somesuch, because he isn't and he's not. But that doesn't change the fact that he is altering someone else's work to suit his own needs and denying its existance. I very, very, very much dout either one knew what he would do their work. Gary Kurtz dislikes the changes too. I his opinion and less valid than Lucas's?

That said, I can see why others would prefer to have kept Shaw.


If we had a proper choice, the point would be moot.

And you know Jumpman, he will never stop, so why should I have to keep dealling with his changing vision?


Interesting point. His "vision: changes at least once a year.

Who are we to say what he can change and what he can't change?


We aren't.

If he feels the need to change them to satisfy his creative mind, why can't he do that?


He can. I could care less what he does. I just want a good OOT release, that's all.

And Lucas did produce (executive considering it's his money they're using) and write Episode V. Episode V doesn't work without Lucas' draft after Leigh Brackett died.


True, but that doesn't make it "his" film. It doesn't make it thiers either. It could not have existed without all of them together. To say that it or any film belongs to one person is to insult the others who worked on it.

"While Shaw was the face he had when he came back to the light, he still visually represents (to me) the twisted wreck he had become as Vader."

Bingo!


OK, so its our opinion. We'll go watch the high-quality release of the OOT and Lucas gave watch his high-quality release of SE and everybody's happy. Here, I'll link you to the high-quality release of the OOT...No, wait. I can't. So the point is still valid.

You don't think he saw it as an opportunity to further help his career out if he was a hired hand in the biggest sequel of all time at the point?


Yes, I think that that is why he took the project, but I doubt that he thought that Lucas would change something that he had put nearly a year of his life into 20 years later and say that Kersh's work didn't exist.

Again, I ask, why does my dislike of the SEs mean that I am denying Lucas his vision. Even if I wanted to, how would I stop him from releasing the SEs? He can do whatever he wants to the films. I don't care. I really don't. I just want the OOT in a high-quality release. That's it. That's all. That's not asking that much. And eventually, I will get it an all of this will be rendered moot.

I hope and pray that we can get a higher quality release of the O-OT, but I really don't think Lucas is worried about which one people will want to watch.


Yes, I think that he is. He knows that many people would watch the OOT and he doesn't want them to becasue then they might prefer it to the SEs. What's always struck me as odd is why he didn't simply market both. Then he'd be able to market six films instead of three and have twice as much money. But he seems to be slowly realizing that. Like I said, I just want a good OOT DVD release. That's it. Other than that, I don't care. I wish the man a long, happy, healthy life.

I understand the difference. That's not my issue. Lucas doesn't want to spend the money remastering and cleaning up on films he deems inferior to his vision. That's as plain as I can get. Would it have been easier to go the E.T. route? Absolutely. I can't argue against that. Everyone would've been happy. But haven't fans realized that Lucas cares about one thing when it comes to Star Wars and that's his vision of it. And if his vision of it is the Special Editions, that's it. I'd rather he give consumers the choice (which he technically did with the Limited Editions but not an acceptible choice]) but I understand his views as a filmmaker and an artist.


I do too. That's the whole point of what I have been saying for countless posts. I just want a high-quality OOT DVD release. Other than that, it doesn't matter. Surely you must agree with that. Lucas acts like we are denying him his vision by wanting the OOT when we couldn't deny it if we wanted to. We're not. He can have his vision. We don't care. We just want the OOT in a decent release. Then everybody is happy, including Lucas becasue he has billions of dollars in further cash. I understand it. But that doesn't mean that I have to like it or accept it. A high quality OOT DVD release would let us meet in the middle.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death