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What do u think of the PT? — Page 4

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Yeah, they change fudnamental details that alters the meaning. That's why it's considered parody, not copyright infringement.

I'm with Jumpman on this one. A lot of us act like the SE's are entirely different films than they were before, when most of it is pretty much the same.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman

That's a pretty big generalization of fans of the Prequels. You can't really make that statement. Everyone has their reason for watching and enjoying the Prequels as they do with the Originals. The difference is time in which the Original Trilogy was released to the masses. A New Hope was something nobody every experienced before...period. And you can say the same for the film industry. It was a film that changed EVERYTHING on numerous levels.

As you stated, the Prequels were going to be unfairly compared to the Originals. It's impossible to live up to the standards set 16 years prior. Everything about our culture, when it comes to films and the film industry, is totally different.

Also remember, the Original Trilogy was not widely praised upon their releases as some would like to think they were. It is only when critics took a step back and saw them for what they were that the praise came. Some critics were ahead of their time. Others were not. Star Wars isn't the first film to have that happen to it. De Palma's Scarface is a great example.

Will this happen to the Prequels? It just depends. They won't get the almighty praise the Originals get but I think, when time passes on, they'll be looked on more favorably.



Forget the critics, I really don't care about the critics, I am talking about the fans. The PT is criticized by the fans, and I agree the critics have been taking shots at SW for years.

You guys missed my original point, ANH or SW '77 is the easiest movie to sell to ANY type of moviegoer. It is a basic story of good vs evil, and you really don't have to be a scifi/fantasy fan to fall in love with it, and you really don't have to be a SW fan to love it either. Everyone of us saw that movie first and fell in love or really liked it enough to want to watch more SW movies. Everyone I know in my family loves ANH, but none of them ever loved ESB & ROTJ, cause that was more for the diehard fan who wanted more, so of course the popularity has never been the same even since 1977.

By watching the saga 1-6 now, you throw away ANH as a standalone movie to get the mass viewer into SW, cause now they are watching it in saga terms, or Anakins story, and the movie will not be the same as just renting ANH on a Friday night as a standalone movie that technically has an ending.

I am just saying that the 1-6 saga fanbase in the future has to love Anakins story to be fans, cause they are just not going to just pick 4-6 like I can do, cause they won't see the saga that way. To me it is either take the story or leave it, and I think many fans will think the saga 1-6 is OK, but not want to watch 8,000 times like we did cause there was not that one film to grasp them like the OT did.

There is a reason Lucas made the OT story first, even he says it, it is an easier sell to the mass public, cause the PT movies are not as funny, not as much action in terms of the rebels constantly on the run, and the characters don't appeal to the average moviegoer cause the PT contains all political people: Jedi, Senators, Chancellors,etc.

The bottom line for me and this is what made the OT great, is does these movies have replay value? For replay value, the PT movies don't come close to the OT movies,, but I say forget critics, just think of what the SW fans say, and that is what really counts.
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Are you going to bother explaining how you came to the conlusion that nobody says the classic trilogy is perfect when I was able to quote you saying that exact phrasing from not more than a week or two ago?

Forget critics? That would mean I should forget your criticism as well.

What makes you so much smarter than the critics who didn't "get" what made the classic trilogy so great at first?
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: CO
Great movies are great movies ... as a kid you watch movies for a different reason then you do when you are older, but that doesn't mean that we are watching movies for nostalgia purposes now ...


This is a very important point. I don't give any credence to the argument that OOT fans don't give the PT a fair or open-minded appraisal because we saw the OOT when young and now can't see the flaws. I also reject the connected argument that, because of this uncritical love for the OOT, the PT couldn't possibly live up to the expectations of the OOT fans.

I can judge what is good or bad about what I watched when I was a kid. Some of the bad stuff I watch, occasionally, for nostalgia (e.g. Transformers: The Movie). Some of the good kid's stuff, I watch as just that (e.g. Bagpuss). But there are things that I judge to be good now, for the age I'm at. Just as one can grow to appreciate things that one didn't "get" at a younger age, so one can also appreciate things that one loved in childhood from an adult's perspective.

The PT does not live up to the OOT now, today, for me, at the age I am now. The OOT is not perfect but it does satisfy me as much, if not more, as an adult as it did when I was a child. I see the OOT and the PT for what they are. The SEs too, come to that.

Why should the OOT occupy some unique category that no other films occupy? I still watch Labyrinth and The Princess Bride now. Is it because I can't see the flaws in them? I enjoyed Superman & Superman II when I was little. Does that mean that I won't be able to appreciate Superman Returns with my adult mind? Do I have to regress to a child's level to enjoy it?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Are you going to bother explaining how you came to the conlusion that nobody says the classic trilogy is perfect when I was able to quote you saying that exact phrasing from not more than a week or two ago?

Forget critics? That would mean I should forget your criticism as well.

What makes you so much smarter than the critics who didn't "get" what made the classic trilogy so great at first?


Wait a second, I was saying the OT was perfect compared to the SE, and they didn't need any tinkering. You can tinker all you want with ROTJ, doing this and that to it is not going to make it a better movie, so yes it is perfect compared to the SE, but it is an average movie when taken in movie sense.

Where do I get my conclusions? I have nephews that from the ages of 6-10 years old that grew up with the PT and saw the saga 1-6, and they were really into it last year when ROTS came out, but it was a faze and that is different then the OT days for me and my friends after '83. I am not saying they don't like the SW movies, they enjoyed them last year, but cause they never fell in love with one movie cause they were watching it as a 1-6 entity, it is more of something they like that was the flavor of the month, but this summer, they are all Pirates of the Caribbean.

For me growing up, SW '77 was the movie that grabbed me as a fan, and I don't think ESB & ROTJ are as great as that movie in 1977, but I do care more about Luke, Leia, and Han, so I will always be an OT fan. After '83, I still loved and watched the movies endlessly, my nephews haven't touched ANY of the SW movies, including the OT cause they don't love it, and that is because they are a bunch of movies that some are good and some are bad to them, so why would they revisit them if they don't think they are all great? In 1985, I loved Back to the Future and watched that on Video thousands of times, but I never pushed off the OT like my nephews have done, to them it is just another set of cool movies that they will revisit every once in a while. SW for me and many of my friends, it was a religion, and that is the difference when you start making average movies.

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See, I'd probably like the PT and the SEs more if I just had a decent release of the OOT. Then I'd probably be able to look upon them with clearer eyes. As it stands, I basically see the PT as the reason for the SEs, and thus have issues with it by default.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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CO I don't care what you said it in relation to, you said "The OT was perfect".

See CO, you say you don't concern yourself with the critics of the classic trilogy when it first came out, but now here you are acting like your criticism of the prequels is somehow much more insightful. And you are basing this on your perception that the prequels are merely a fad with some of your younger relatives?

Star Wars is a fantastic story and is made up of some wonderful movies, but it's not a religion. There was a period of time after ROTJ where Star Wars faded. Even with the mighty power of the classic trilogy on it's own, there were almost 10 years where nothing new aside from the occasional EU book was produced. The action figure line had all but vanished.

If the success of the prequels were so dependant on the previous success of the classic trilogy then how do you explain that gap of relative inactivity in the Star Wars fanbase?

I could make a decent case that the SE's and the Prequels made the drawing power of Star Wars even more potent than it was before, hence why Star Wars is such a common brand in use today (in the realm of books, comics, video games).

The critics who slammed the classic trilogy thought they were pretty smart people too. I just don't understand why you think that your criticism of the prequels is any more insightful than these professional critics from back in the day.
Your focus determines your reality.
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"By watching the saga 1-6 now, you throw away ANH as a standalone movie to get the mass viewer into SW, cause now they are watching it in saga terms, or Anakins story, and the movie will not be the same as just renting ANH on a Friday night as a standalone movie that technically has an ending."

But CO, you can technically not think about the rest of the Star Wars films and just watch A New Hope on its own anyway...even with Episode IV A New Hope spliced onto the beginning. Nothing is stopping you from watching that film and that film alone. You can choose to continue or you can choose to stop at the film. The film still works great on it's own. And even in Saga terms, it works very well as the first victory for the Rebel Alliance.

The Saga can be looked upon as the story of Anakin Skywalker. That doesn't change the fact that once you get to the Original Trilogy, the main character is still Luke. He's the one we follow to Vader's end and the Empire's end. Lucas saying that the Saga is about Anakin doesn't ruin that.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Gomer, is there ANYTHING the original trilogy did better? just curious.
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Likeable characters is what the Original Trilogy has over the Prequels. There are other (small) things but that's the Original Trilogy's greatest strength.

Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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The way it seems to me is the classic trilogy was pretty good on it's own, but the SE has imrpoved it with it's changes.

I mean as cheesey as Jedi Rocks may be, I think the CG Sy Snoodles is heads and shoulders above the rod puppet they used before, and things like putting Ian in Empire really helps everything gel for me (not just gel with the prequels but gel with ROTJ first and foremost)

That said, some of the things they did in the 2004 DVD are not quite as good to me, such as the lack of musical fanfare when Luke goes into the trench on the Death Star, and other audio issues like that (Leia and Tarkin's patchy VO's when he's about to blow up Alderaan), stuff like that, but to me, the improvements of the 2004 SE outweigh any of the issues it has introduced.

When it comes to people saying the sabers aren't all colored right, I have to say that it was pretty dicey to begin with in the classic trilogy, especially in ANH with the experimentation with the reflective rods and such.

I guess the way I see the 2004 SE is it's better than the O-OT, but it's still not finished and I roll with the fact it's not yet finished, just as I rolled along with the monkey woman emperor in ESB. One thing that's great about the 2004 release, is now he has input from all of us rabid fans who notice every little detail. No person in charge of continuity for any given film can compete with the millions of fans like us when it comes to being anal retentive.

And I say anal retentive in a good way. It just means we care more and notice more.

I think it's great to be so observant, but at some point we have to keep in mind that it will never be perfect, and if we want to get the most enjoyment out of these films, we have to work with them to a certain extent.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The way it seems to me is the classic trilogy was pretty good on it's own, but the SE has imrpoved it with it's changes.

I guess the way I see the 2004 SE is it's better than the O-OT


You do realise this is OriginalTrilogy.com don't you?

Your post was written for another forum, right?

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Star Wars is a fantastic story and is made up of some wonderful movies, but it's not a religion. There was a period of time after ROTJ where Star Wars faded. Even with the mighty power of the classic trilogy on it's own, there were almost 10 years where nothing new aside from the occasional EU book was produced. The action figure line had all but vanished.


Actually, the action figure line was revived in 1995, over a year before the Special Editions were released, and they did quite well. There was a huge re-kindling of Star Wars at the end of that year, and that was all because the original movies were being released again. Oh, yeah, and we were told it would be the last time they would be...

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Okay, but that still doesn't explain the gap between ROTJ and when they announced the SE's.

And yes, I know this is Original Trilogy.com.

I do think the SE's are an improvement, but I can relate to people who prefer the originals. I think things would be better for everyone if they were available in as high a quality as the SE's, and as a die hard fan, I just want to have a copy of all his revisions of the flm myself.

While I'm entirely for that, and can relate to people who do not like much of what Lucas has done since ROTJ, I still think that sometimes a lot of us give Lucas a worse rap than he deserves over the whole thing.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

While I'm entirely for that, and can relate to people who do not like much of what Lucas has done since ROTJ, I still think that sometimes a lot of us give Lucas a worse rap than he deserves over the whole thing.


It is real simple: Release the O-OT in the same high quality as every DVD on the market circa 2006, and Lucas will never hear from us again. Sure people will always complain about the movies, but don't they do that on Matrix Message Boards towards Reloaded and Revolutions? You don't think Rocky fans are going make fun of Rocky VI when it comes out in December, just as much as they made fun of Rocky V 15 years ago? That is the nature of movies, but the last time I checked I have Rocky & The Matrix on DVD and they are of great quality, and Lucas would just release the damn movies without all the tag lines: 'non-anamorphic,' 'bonus material,' and 'these versions don't exist anymore,' then we can all move on in our lives. Lucas gets a bad rap from many OT fans cause he has turned his back on the versions that gave him independence to do whatever he wants from the studios, and now he is doing it exactly to the OT fans from 77-83 who supported him like no end. Kinda ironic Gomer?

You can say what you want about the SE & PT movies, and I have no problem with them being made and being out there for new fans to experience. I have my personal opinions on how SW fandom will play out in the future, but that is the way it is. The sad fact is there are millions of fans who saw the movies from 77-83 one way, and loved them that way, and the fact that Lucas totally disregards that market now shows that he is not a man of his fanbase, cause nearly every damn movie that is a directors cut or special edition, contains the original version in just as good quality along side it, and for Lucas to shove off this fanbase, for however big it is, is the ultimate point of thumbing your nose at the fans, and that is why we all have problems with the guy. I don't hate him personaly, I respect that he is one of the few family men in Hollywood, but he is the one who won't let fans just experience the OT the way we want to on DVD, and it is very frustrating when I have to hit zoom everytime I watch my 3 favorite movies.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

I think it's great to be so observant, but at some point we have to keep in mind that it will never be perfect, and if we want to get the most enjoyment out of these films, we have to work with them to a certain extent.


I believe my criticisms of the prequel trilogy were fair. I don't consider the original Star Wars movies perfect by comparison, but they were a lot better.

If you ever want to reply more in my prequel thread then you are certainly free to do so.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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CO,

But we've been enjoying the films on VHS and Laserdisc for over twenty years now...in it's original state. Is Lucas REQUIRED to continue that just because DVD is the NEW thing?

On top of that, and we'll obviously agree to disagree here, but in his mind, the Original Trilogy made it's debut on DVD in 2004...with the cleanup he deemed neccessary...eventhough we all know it was a rush job and it's not entirely finished. Still, his movies, his way, and will always be his way when he's no longer with us, will be Original Trilogy in its Special Edition form, in the future and forever. There's no way of getting around that any longer.

And personally, the market for the theatrical versions is a niche market anyway. I don't really think the masses see the difference any longer, if you go buy DVD sales of the 2004 set. It's only the film community and certain types in the media who've been at Lucas for years that actually really, truly care about this situation.

Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

But we've been enjoying the films on VHS and Laserdisc for over twenty years now...in it's original state. Is Lucas REQUIRED to continue that just because DVD is the NEW thing?

On top of that, and we'll obviously agree to disagree here, but in his mind, the Original Trilogy made it's debut on DVD in 2004...with the cleanup he deemed neccessary...eventhough we all know it was a rush job and it's not entirely finished. Still, his movies, his way, and will always be his way when he's no longer with us, will be Original Trilogy in its Special Edition form, in the future and forever. There's no way of getting around that any longer.

And personally, the market for the theatrical versions is a niche market anyway. I don't really think the masses see the difference any longer, if you go buy DVD sales of the 2004 set. It's only the film community and certain types in the media who've been at Lucas for years that actually really, truly care about this situation.


As for a niche market, that is only the vocal ones. I will always say that most OT fans PREFER the O-OT to the SE, but not everyone is on the internet everyday like myself and others here, cause some people arent' that passionate. Just look at the numbers from Videoscan on the O-OT release:

They all finished in the top 10 of sales, ANH #5, ESB #6, and ROTJ #7, and that is a set of movies that are non-anamorphic, which if you look at the DVDs that came out in 2006, 99% of them are Anamorphic Great Quality. That means that a supbar, average, grainy looking release of SW still sold in the top 10!

Cleanup and Remastering are different than Added Effects and Scenes. EVERY DVD that is of an old movie is remastered and cleaned up: The Godfather, Indiana Jones, Citizen Kane, and even Wizard of Oz. So the O-OT deserved that much respect as the other movies, but the SE in 2004 is different not cause of the clean up and remastering job, but the added effects from 97 and from '04 that make this set different. Just look at E.T, same transfer, two versions, everyone is happy.

If you and Lucas want to hold firm that the 2004 Versions are what the OT is now and say the O-OT is a thing of the past, why did it finish in the top 10 of DVD sales when it isn't even great quality? PEOPLE PREFER IT, there just isn't millions of idiots like me who post on a SW board everyday, and that is the difference. Every friend I know bought this release in Sept, and they also bought the 2004 release too thinking that was the only version that was ever going to be released, but now they prefer to watch inferior quality of the O-OT over superior quality of the SE, so that may tell you about that niche audience may be bigger then you think.

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Jumpman, sorry to double post, but I will ask you this question:

Say Lucas released the O-OT in 2004 in Anamorphic, fully remastered, and didn't release the SE at all. Then released the SE this year non-anamorphic and average laserdisk quality that the disk are now,

1. Do you think the SE in non anamorphic would still outsell the O-OT in anamorphic?

2. Do you think the SE in non anamorphic would even outsell the O-OT in the same quality?

3. Do you think the 97 SE would sell at all if it were released on DVD?

My point is many fans bought the 2004 DVD's cause Lucas said he would never put out the O-OT ever again, so why are those people buying the O-OT in average quality, and thus putting in the top 10 of DVD sales when it seems to you and Lucas that only a handful of whiners really wants them?

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Originally posted by: Jumpman
It's only the film community and certain types in the media who've been at Lucas for years that actually really, truly care about this situation.

And yet, here you are on this site, posting in this forum, about this issue. Which are you? Film community or media?
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Digital Man,

This is about the only, somewhat sane place to discuss Star Wars any longer. There are days when I want to discuss Star Wars. Other days, not so much.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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CO,

As to your questions, obviously the theatrical versions would sell the most but that's not because they're the theatrical versions. It's because it was the first time the Original Trilogy was out on DVD. No matter which version you put out, in 2004, that boxset was going to sell huge regardless. Why? Because it was the Original Trilogy.

There's no way of really telling how the versions are split between consumers, in terms of preference. And to be honest, I don't think average consumers can tell the difference, mainly because the characters and plot haven't changed between the versions....

"Cleanup and Remastering are different than Added Effects and Scenes. EVERY DVD that is of an old movie is remastered and cleaned up: The Godfather, Indiana Jones, Citizen Kane, and even Wizard of Oz. So the O-OT deserved that much respect as the other movies, but the SE in 2004 is different not cause of the clean up and remastering job, but the added effects from 97 and from '04 that make this set different. Just look at E.T, same transfer, two versions, everyone is happy."

I understand the difference. That's not my issue. Lucas doesn't want to spend the money remastering and cleaning up on films he deems inferior to his vision. That's as plain as I can get. Would it have been easier to go the E.T. route? Absolutely. I can't argue against that. Everyone would've been happy. But haven't fans realized that Lucas cares about one thing when it comes to Star Wars and that's his vision of it. And if his vision of it is the Special Editions, that's it. I'd rather he give consumers the choice (which he technically did with the Limited Editions) but I understand his views as a filmmaker and an artist.

You can piss and moan about it until the cows come home but you have to at least respect his decision and see it from his point of view. If you do, and you still disagree obviously you do, then so be it. But, I don't think Lucas is going to lose sleep if he loses some fans over his decisions.




Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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CO,

Let me ask you a question. If Lucas never came out with the Limited Editions and remained firm in his decision never to release the theatrical versions, could you live with the Special Editions as the only version of the Original Trilogy on DVD and future formats?
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman

As to your questions, obviously the theatrical versions would sell the most but that's not because they're the theatrical versions. It's because it was the first time the Original Trilogy was out on DVD. No matter which version you put out, in 2004, that boxset was going to sell huge regardless. Why? Because it was the Original Trilogy.

There's no way of really telling how the versions are split between consumers, in terms of preference. And to be honest, I don't think average consumers can tell the difference, mainly because the characters and plot haven't changed between the versions....

.



Yeah, but Jumpman how many people do you know would hold out and not buy the O-OT, and look for some SE bootlegs if that was the case? There are so many fans who didn't buy the SE, and waited for the O-OT, and are even waiting today for a remastered O-OT. My whole point is the SE split the fanbase, and that is just the way it is, you prefer one and i prefer another, so because of the popularity we should both be accomodated.

If Lucas never did a SE, and the O-OT were always there, the same fans who love the SE would still love the O-OT, it is only after seeing new effects that they see the O-OT as inferior, but if they were never updated, there would be no frame of reference. I will always say the SE created ZERO new SW fans, cause I am confident those same fans would have fallen love with SW regardless, and the bottom line is from 1977-96 it was the best trilogy in terms of popularity, why should it change?

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And personally, the market for the theatrical versions is a niche market anyway.

Recent sales seem to indicate otherwise.

Still, his movies, his way, and will always be his way when he's no longer with us, will be Original Trilogy in its Special Edition form, in the future and forever. There's no way of getting around that any longer.

True, but the two are view very separately.

PEOPLE PREFER IT, there just isn't millions of idiots like me who post on a SW board everyday, and that is the difference.

Not everyone, perhaps, but a substantial enough number to make Lucas see a considerable market.

Every friend I know bought this release in Sept, and they also bought the 2004 release too thinking that was the only version that was ever going to be released, but now they prefer to watch inferior quality of the O-OT over superior quality of the SE, so that may tell you about that niche audience may be bigger then you think.


Big enough to make Lucas money at any rate, which is the crux of the issue.

Let me ask you a question. If Lucas never came out with the Limited Editions and remained firm in his decision never to release the theatrical versions, could you live with the Special Editions as the only version of the Original Trilogy on DVD and future formats?


I couldn't. Until I see a proper OOT DVD release, I'm done with SW and LFL. There are other products more deserving of my money if I can't get what I wanted. The question you are asking is whether or not, 100 years, people would still care about SW if the SEs only existed. I don't think so, but none of us will be aroung long enough to tell.

That said, some of the things they did in the 2004 DVD are not quite as good to me, such as the lack of musical fanfare when Luke goes into the trench on the Death Star


Yes, well, that was a foul up that Lucasfilm just don't want to admit to. I seriously doubt that that was a change that he intended.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death