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What did the Prequel Trilogy need? — Page 2

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wow, Darth adroit, that has the potential to make for a really great opening to an alternate PT. It DEFINATELY has a lot more of that "OT feel" to it.
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Originally posted by: canofhumdingers
wow, Darth adroit, that has the potential to make for a really great opening to an alternate PT. It DEFINATELY has a lot more of that "OT feel" to it.


Thanks canofhumdingers. It’s really just me talking out of my ass. It seems that the PT was written without regard to what was said in the OT and I think that’s the biggest failing of the PT.

I think anything that doesn’t invalidate the OT is an improvement over what we ended up with. Let’s review what we know from the OT and I’m sure others can come up with better scenarios than my meager offering:



Ben: “I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.” – Ben

“General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.” - Leia

“There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.” - Ben

“Was I any different when you taught me?” – Ben in response to the following statement by Yoda “Much anger in him, like his father.”

“So was I, if you'll remember.”– Ben in response to the following statement by Yoda “You are reckless!”

“I don't blame you for being angry. If I was wrong in what I did, it certainly wouldn't have been for the first time. You see, what happened to your father was my fault.” Ben from the ESB script




Anakin: “He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.” – Ben

“He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic
crusade like your father did.” – Ben

“A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.” – Ben

“When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master.” – Vader

““Much anger in him, like his father.” – Yoda

“Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader.” – Ben

“You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force.” – Ben

“Anakin was a good friend.” – Ben

“When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.” – Ben

“I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.” – Ben

“To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side - the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm.” – Ben ROTJ script





Owen: “That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.” –Ben

“He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic
crusade like your father did.” – Ben

“That's your uncle talking.” – Ben in response to the following statement by Luke
“I can't get involved! I've got work to do! It's not that I like the Empire. I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right now. It's such a long way from here.”



There is also this interesting tidbit from the ROTJ script, which indicates that Owen was originally slated to be Ben’s brother and provides details about the birth of the twins, “When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.” – Ben

Later in the same scene Ben was supposed to say the following, “The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family continued to
be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster father's path, became a senator
as well. That's not all she became, of course... she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she
was a vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing
when her path crossed yours... for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on
Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.”

I know these were never included in the movies (like the lines from the scripts I mentioned earlier), but they do give you the idea of what George was thinking about for the back story.


"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
- Darth-Adroit

“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit
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Again, great ideas, Adroit. The spice-freighter angle and the same-father-but-not-the-same-mother ideas are great.

For me, much of what I look for in movies is meaningful in an ethical or spiritual way. The PT was so superficial in this regard and most of my ideas about what would make the PT better work along those lines. Exploring the force and the Jedi religion, or the existence of evil and falling to the dark side, and that sort of stuff.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit
Ben and Anakin arrive and find that Anakin’s mother has been killed by a crack whore or some shit.


Awesome!

[This is also long - sorry!]

I would have preferred the Jedi order to have been less associated with the senate. I think the analogy with Eastern monks should have been extended, so that you have Jedi temples in remote places across the galaxy. I would have liked Yoda to have always lived alone on Dagobah and Jedi get sent there to train with him. A bit like Pai-Mei in 'Kill Bill'! People would come to the Jedi with their problems and the Jedi would only intervene with force (and The Force! ) when all other methods had failed. I think the Jedi should not get involved in political struggles. I think Jedi would advise political leaders but not side with any of them. I don't like the idea of them being some kind of police force attached to the state. For me, that diminishes their status considerably.

I think that the Jedi would only get involved when they found out that the Sith were trying to take over the leadership of the senate. This could then logically lead to the senate being turned against the Jedi. Perhaps some systems would side with the senate and some with the Jedi. This would give rise to the Clone Wars. The division of the senate would allow for the systems that stay to become the Empire. The Empire have a clone army which has been assembled in secret, plus a vast fleet of Star Destroyers. This unexpected show of force overwhelms the opposition.

Sith (rule of two be damned!) could be dispatched, as officials of the empire, to find Jedi temples and kill anyone they found there. I'm sure I read on someone's post that the place on Dagobah, described by Yoda as being "strong with the Dark Side of the Force", was created by a duel with a powerful Sith (something in the EU, I think). Maybe the Sith decided to cut their losses and just wipe out every other Jedi and wait for Yoda to die? The Clone Wars would rage on between systems loyal to the Jedi and the Empire, controlled by the Sith. The war devestates both sides and leaves the Empire on top, but virtually all of the Jedi and Sith have been wiped out.

It would be through the characters of Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme (would probably change the name, if I had my way) that we would see this epic struggle. It would fit rather well to have Anakin be a pilot in the forces under, by now, General Kenobi's command. This would be best to be the Alderaan system, as Leia states that Obi-Wan served her (adoptive) father during the Clone Wars. I reckon having Anakin found by Obi-Wan when he's about the same age as Luke in ANH is a good one, because it would allow us to see him (over the course of the SW saga) try to train Anakin and then realise that he couldn't train Jedi like Yoda and not make the same mistake again with Luke, especially since the stakes are even higher after the Clone Wars have been lost.

I like the idea of the love trianle between the three of them, but I don't like the idea of that leading Anakin to the Dark Side. I don't think it's EPIC enough!! I think that Padme should fall for Anakin and Obi-Wan should be the jealous one ("It's because of my beard, isn't it?!"). It would make sense if Obi-Wan struggled against his feelings for Padme, if we follow through the idea about the Jedi being like monks. I think it is a much more powerful story if Anakin falls in love with his growing power and that he follows that road at the cost of his relationships with Padme and Obi-Wan.

How about Sith reporting back to Sidious that they have encountered a young Jedi who is very strong with the Force and fights (with a lightsabre that Obi-Wan constructs for him) with more passion than discipline. Wouldn't that interest him somewhat? Sidious could then engineer a meeting between him and Anakin and duel with him. Sidious could then work on Anakin, as he and Vader do on Luke in ROTJ and ESB respectively, with the result that Anakin does fall to the Dark Side to gain the power that Sidious displays in the duel and is offering to pass on to him. After this Anakin would become Sith, take the name Darth Vader, help the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights and would eventually come face-to-face with Obi-Wan. Cue scene where Anakin tries to win Obi-Wan over to his side but Obi-Wan resists. Anakin becomes enraged, they duel, Anakin comes close to killing Obi-Wan a couple of times and, eventually, Obi-Wan, in self-defence, stops holding back, bests Anakin and pushes him into a lake of lava, taking the lightsabre that he had made for Anakin away with him.

Obi-Wan comes to Padme to tell her what has happened. At first she is furious with Obi-Wan and accuses him of killing Anakin because of jealousy but, eventually, comes to accept that he had to do what he did. Now, I would like to see, over the course of this story, that Padme and Anakin live together until he goes off with Sidious. A few months after he goes she finds out that she's pregnant. After the "death" of Anakin she returns home. Shortly after that, we hear of Imperial forces, led by Lord Darth Vader, scourging all systems of all remaining Jedi and their relatives and known supporters. Obi-Wan comes to her just before Vader does. She has had twins, a boy and a girl. Obi-Wan withholds from her that Vader is Anakin. He tells her that Vader will kill her and her children if he finds them. He convinces her of Vader's ability to sense the children and persuades her that, if they were separated, it would make them harder to find. He tells her that Anakin had a brother and he'll take one of the children to him. He tells her to take the other child with her to Alderaan and seek refuge with the Organas and, if anyone asks, the Organas should say that the baby is theirs. Padme will then have to make the agonising decision of which child to take with her and which to send with Obi-Wan. Well, we know the outcome of that one.

So, Obi-Wan seeks out the Lars family and, eventually, tracks them down on Tatooine. He gives up Luke into the care of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru and then puts some distance between himself and the homestead. Padme and Leia settle down with the Organas on Alderaan. And, for a few years, that's it. Then, I think, either Vader or some other Imperial officials find out who Padme is. Leia is protected by the pretence that she is the child of the Organas. Padme refuses to cooperate and Leia sees her mother get killed and that sets her on her course to become leader of the Rebellion.

Whaddaya think, y'all?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I like how anyone whose seen the movies can come up with a better plot in ten minutes. This was his "vision" that he's been planning out over all this time? Sure, he didn't really have it all written down, but he must have been thinking it over throughout the years. And this was the best he could do?

Really shows how much work he put into it.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The extended Mos Eisley sequence is another one that ruins a setup, just like the Jabba scene ruins the reveal of Falcon.


Hey, I never thought of it like that. I mean, the scene always ruined Jabba's appearance in RotJ, but I didn't think about how it affected the MF's.


The prequels needed more of Bail Organa. I don't know about other people here, but I didn't realize he was even in AotC until I got the Visual Dictionary. For crying out loud, this is the man who adopts Leia. We should at least see more of him than the little that we saw in Eps. II and III.

Like some have mentioned before, Naboo should have been Alderaan. The two planets are quite similar: green, the inhabitants love life and culture, they have no weapons.

Padmé should not have died immediately after giving birth. I know the EU isn't everyone's cup of tea, but in one of the Zahn novels, Leia has a flashback of her mother hiding her in a chest or something. In fact, the Thrawn series gives a lot of Old Republic information that could have been incorporated into the PT. But like I said, not everyone goes by the novels.
I have a bad feeling about this...
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I've been tod many times that the Zahn trilogy is quite good. I've never read any of the Star Wars books, however. I've also heard that almost all of the other books suck.


Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I think that the Jedi would only get involved when they found out that the Sith were trying to take over the leadership of the senate. This could then logically lead to the senate being turned against the Jedi. Perhaps some systems would side with the senate and some with the Jedi. This would give rise to the Clone Wars. The division of the senate would allow for the systems that stay to become the Empire. The Empire have a clone army which has been assembled in secret, plus a vast fleet of Star Destroyers. This unexpected show of force overwhelms the opposition.


That's definitely a good idea right there. But, like was stated earlier, I believe it might be best to have the clone wars in progress as the stories begin.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: End Credits

Padmé should not have died immediately after giving birth. I know the EU isn't everyone's cup of tea, but in one of the Zahn novels, Leia has a flashback of her mother hiding her in a chest or something.

Wasn't that bit in one of the OT novelizations?

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Originally posted by: Mielr
Originally posted by: End Credits

Padmé should not have died immediately after giving birth. I know the EU isn't everyone's cup of tea, but in one of the Zahn novels, Leia has a flashback of her mother hiding her in a chest or something.

Wasn't that bit in one of the OT novelizations?


It's possible. I've read the OT novelizations only once. I seem to remember it from either Dark Force Rising or The Last Command, though.
I have a bad feeling about this...
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Originally posted by: Tiptup
But, like was stated earlier, I believe it might be best to have the clone wars in progress as the stories begin.


Absolutely. I was elaborating a possible backstory for the OOT, some considered previously, some worked out as I went. As I've said in another thread, I don't think anybody apart from Luca$h has a problem with the fact that the films are showing episodes from a BIG story. The opening crawls explain broadly where we're at and the rest you can pick up, or draw your own conclusions from. So I think having episode 1 open with Obi-Wan commanding forces fighting the Empire in a battle and discovering Anakin through his amazing Jedi reflexes as a fighter pilot would be a good one. After all, the purpose of the SW saga is not, in fact, to tell the story of the galaxy but the stories of Anakin and his friends and family. It is through them that we see what's happening to the galaxy and their stories often comment upon, reflect or directly influence the larger events around them.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Absolutely. I was elaborating a possible backstory for the OOT, some considered previously, some worked out as I went. As I've said in another thread, I don't think anybody apart from Luca$h has a problem with the fact that the films are showing episodes from a BIG story. The opening crawls explain broadly where we're at and the rest you can pick up, or draw your own conclusions from. So I think having episode 1 open with Obi-Wan commanding forces fighting the Empire in a battle and discovering Anakin through his amazing Jedi reflexes as a fighter pilot would be a good one. After all, the purpose of the SW saga is not, in fact, to tell the story of the galaxy but the stories of Anakin and his friends and family. It is through them that we see what's happening to the galaxy and their stories often comment upon, reflect or directly influence the larger events around them.


I agree completely. That's probably the main problem I have with ROTS. It has so much convoluted crap destroying any sense of story or drama. At any rate, your prequel ideas are very good as well. It would almost be fun to get a bunch of us together and collaborate on a fully-fledge, new version of the PT storyline.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Lets face it the PT will never be as good as the OOT . It has jaja binks in it which makes it worse.
It should have been a 5 EP saga insted of 6 !
May the force be wth you .........
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I like the idea of a trilogy of trilogies, actually. It should be three generations of the Skywalker family: Anakin, Luke & Leia and Leia & Han's children.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Oh, I thought of another one. I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but before the big duel between Anakin and Obi-wan, they should show Anakin sensing Obi-wan's presence. Instead, he just sees Padmé's ship come in. Remember what Vader says to Tarkin in SW?

A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.


I must say I think this was something I was looking forward to when the prequels were announced. I mean, it's possible he sensed Obi-wan, but during those scenes they show him more preoccupied with Padmé.
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Originally posted by: End Credits
A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.


Interesting quote to focus on, but you make a good point. The force in the PT was more about slashing lightsabers or jumping high and the subtleties like that were missing.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: End Credits
Originally posted by: Mielr
Originally posted by: End Credits

Padmé should not have died immediately after giving birth. I know the EU isn't everyone's cup of tea, but in one of the Zahn novels, Leia has a flashback of her mother hiding her in a chest or something.

Wasn't that bit in one of the OT novelizations?


It's possible. I've read the OT novelizations only once. I seem to remember it from either Dark Force Rising or The Last Command, though.

I found it- it's in the ROTJ novelization by James Kahn. It's in the bridge scene with Luke and Leia:


"Flashes from her infancy assaulted her--distorted visions of running...a beautiful woman...hiding in a trunk."

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A lot of good points have already been said.

I would have liked to see more 70's style sci-fi art direction. The PT was too modern, too much like Star Trek TNG.
I would have liked to see clothes made from 70's patterns, people having 70's haircuts and environments and space ships more inspired by Ralph McQuarrie, i.e. the man who designed the look for the original trilogy. I want the Star Wars feel, but on a more grandiose scale.
For instance, I would have liked to see this scene, as drawn by Ralph McQuarrie.

GL claimed that he cast Hamill, Fisher and Ford as a team, because the chemistry between them was just right. That is also something that is lacking from the prequels, that he did not do.

What GL should have done more than anything else would have been to let other people (SMART people) influence how the movies were designed and made. For instance, he needed a "Marcia Lucas" to tell him when his ideas were bollocks.
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Okay, I'm resurrecting this thread, as I thought it was great. So there.

Also, I thought of something to make the Padme character much more interesting. What if she is also fighting on the side of the Jedi in the Clone Wars? Let's face it, in the PT she's no Princess Leia! So:

Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Obi-Wan comes to Padme to tell her what has happened. At first she is furious with Obi-Wan and accuses him of killing Anakin because of jealousy but, eventually, comes to accept that he had to do what he did. Now, I would like to see, over the course of this story, that Padme and Anakin live together until he goes off with Sidious. A few months after he goes she finds out that she's pregnant. After the "death" of Anakin she returns home. Shortly after that, we hear of Imperial forces, led by Lord Darth Vader, scourging all systems of all remaining Jedi and their relatives and known supporters. Obi-Wan comes to her just before Vader does. She has had twins, a boy and a girl. Obi-Wan withholds from her that Vader is Anakin. He tells her that Vader will kill her and her children if he finds them. He convinces her of Vader's ability to sense the children and persuades her that, if they were separated, it would make them harder to find. He tells her that Anakin had a brother and he'll take one of the children to him. He tells her to take the other child with her to Alderaan and seek refuge with the Organas and, if anyone asks, the Organas should say that the baby is theirs. Padme will then have to make the agonising decision of which child to take with her and which to send with Obi-Wan. Well, we know the outcome of that one.

So, Obi-Wan seeks out the Lars family and, eventually, tracks them down on Tatooine. He gives up Luke into the care of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru and then puts some distance between himself and the homestead. Padme and Leia settle down with the Organas on Alderaan. And, for a few years, that's it. Then, I think, either Vader or some other Imperial officials find out who Padme is. Leia is protected by the pretence that she is the child of the Organas. Padme refuses to cooperate and Leia sees her mother get killed and that sets her on her course to become leader of the Rebellion.


Now, that's all well and good, but we need Padme to be a more interesting and strong character. So, how about she's part of the forces fighting with General Kenobi and Anakin? She falls for Anakin and they get together and she marries him. He fucks off with Sidious. She finds out she's preggers and, because she can't fight, she goes home. She has the bairns and then starts to prepare to go back to the war. Before she leaves, the Clone Wars end with the Empire victorious. Lord Vader starts his cleansing of the Jedi Order. Obi-Wan comes to Padme and he goes off with Luke to track down Anakin's relations and Padme goes to Alderaan with Leia, putting herself under the protection of the Organa household. Unfortunately, you can't keep a good girl down and she joins the Rebellion. It is because of this association that the Empire track her down, along with her associates, and kill her. Leia grows up with this and becomes the feisty freedom-fighter that we know and love!

To pick up on something another poster said, perhaps this could be the reason for Alderaan becoming (at least as far as the Empire could see) a pacifist planet. Maybe the Empire's campaign against the Rebellion there and subsequent retribution against the citizenry would turn them right off fighting and declare themselves peaceful.

Oooh! How about Alderaan being a pacifist planet all the way through the PT and the Organas are the ambassadors for peace to the Empire? Padme disagrees with their pacifism and goes off to fight with the Rebellion, leaving Leia with the Organas. She returns frequently to spend time with her, but she doesn't want to lead the Empire there so always makes short visits. After a few years, the Empire latch on to her. She thinks she's given them the slip, comes back to Alderaan but the Empire catch her. Leia sees her led away, Padme makes a break for it and they shoot her. Maybe Vader could have dispatched the squad to catch her, telling them to bring her to him alive. When the commanding officer returns with a corpse, we could see some ESB-style discipline from the big guy.

Thoughts?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Another thing I would like to have seen - although way too obscure for the casual fans, and that's who the PT is made for - when Anakin gets put in the suit, make it one of Ralph McQuarrie's older Darth Vader designs. After all, there's no way Vader stays in the same suit for 20 years, and it would have been a nice nod to the past.

Want to book yourself or a guest on THE VFP Show? PM me!

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I would have liked Anakin to actualy don the black padded suit (or something like it) as part of his sith gear, only to get the mechanical chest plate and helmet after the duel.
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Can I just say (I'm sure this will have been said before) that Hayden in the suit in ROTS was...

HILARIOUS!!!!!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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The Uncle Owen storyline deserves development, I agree.

The first question to answer is, perhaps, was he always on Tatooine or did he move there?

I like the idea of him moving there more than him always being there. His answer to Aunt Beru, when she says of Luke: "he has too much of his father in him" is: "That's what I'm afraid of." I take this forward to indicate a history with Anakin and a knowledge of what he has done and/or what he has become. I like the idea of Owen going to Tatooine to escape Imperial attention and, particularly, the attention of his brother.

Owen has a different surname to Anakin but Luke maintains the surname of Skywalker, so we can conclude that he is Anakin's half-brother and not just using the name of Lars to hide from the Empire.

So, Shmi married a widower called Cliegg Lars who had a son called Owen. Cliegg owns a farm and they go to live there.

I'd like to make Owen older than Anakin. I'd like Owen to be like his father, which would be devoted to his work, satisfied with living off the land and suspicious of getting involved with the affairs of others. In this setting, Anakin's desire to become a pilot with the Republican forces would be guaranteed to cause conflict within the family. If he then came home with Obi-Wan, who tells them that Anakin has a promising career as a Jedi Knight ahead of him, I think the rift would be as wide as it could get.

Perhaps a battle between Republican and Imperial forces on the planet would destroy the family farm and Shmi and Lars with it. This would leave Owen (and Beru) needing to go somewhere to start life all over again. A planet which is at the farthest reaches of the galaxy might look pretty good at that point, especially if neither side seems to have much presence there. I'd like to see a scene where Anakin and Obi-Wan come to what is left of the farm to find Shmi and Cliegg Lars dead. Anakin tries to get Owen & Beru to come with them but Owen wants nothing more to do with them.

That would be the last we see of them until after Luke & Leia are born and Obi-Wan comes looking for them. He tracks them down on Tatooine. Needless to say, his arrival is not greeted with much enthusiasm by Owen. Obi-Wan tells them what has become of Anakin and asks them to take the baby under their care. Maybe we could see that Owen and Beru are unable to have children of their own and accept.

Anakin does not know where Owen & Beru live, does not know that Luke & Leia exist and the twins have been split up, to make them harder to find. Obi-Wan becomes Old Ben, the strange, old hermit on the Jundland Wastes. Luke becomes the farm boy. Leia becomes the freedom-fighter. Anakin becomes the baddie. The stage is set for the OOT.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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More good ideas. I like the part about Anakin not knowing about Tatooine. Too bad Lucas didn't hire a fan to help him write the prequels.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I think Episode II was a little bit too modern, and Episode III was doomed before it premeired.
And no sane person likes the Phantom Menace