What Do YOU Think Star Wars Should Do Next? — Page 3

Kellythatsit said:

Vladius said:

Channel72 said:

I get the sense that a lot of the writing flaws in these Disney+ Star Wars shows ultimately originate from top-down mandates to expand a 1.5 hour movie pitch into an 8 episode streaming series. At least, that explains why shows like the Kenobi and Boba Fett show are filled with narrative dead-ends, weird decision making, and characters spontaneously changing their minds as needed. But somehow these same writing problems also plagued Mando Season 3 and the Acolyte, which as far as I know were never originally pitched as a movie. So I have no idea what’s happening. I can’t even blame Filoni anymore because non-Filoni shows exhibit Filoni-esque symptoms in the writing. All I know is that good writers seem to be in very short supply, or something about the creative process at Lucasfilm is fundamentally broken. Basically just let Tony Gilroy do everything from now on and we should be okay.

RedLetterMedia recently suggested that a show like the Acolyte - or any High Republic show centering on the Jedi - could be formatted as a Star Trek style episodic show about a team of Jedi, or maybe just a master/apprentice duo, who travel around the Galaxy dispensing peace and justice, with plots based around localized, “problem of the week” style stories and ethical dilemmas, just like old school Star Trek. I realize Star Wars isn’t Star Trek, but the premise of the High Republic could really fit nicely with an episodic style. When I first read about the premise of the High Republic book series, way before the Acolyte aired, one of my first thoughts was “this sounds a lot like Star Trek”. Arguably, the old KOTOR games are somewhat made in this mold as well. You could also do this Andor style, with multiple 2 or 3 episode arcs centering on different independent story lines.

That is a good idea but episodic stories like that are much less popular than serialized stuff now. It’s very close to the Jedi Apprentice series of books, which are about Qui Gon and Obi Wan having episodic Jedi adventures on different planets with different dilemmas. They’re kids’ books and I read them as a kid, but it could easily be done with an adult show, or just more adult books.

But I’d argue that the episodic nature of Mando S1 & S2 and to a lesser degree, Clone Wars and Andor are part of what makes them so successful.

Of course, I just mean the preferences of TV watchers and people that make TV in general.

Kellythatsit said:

rocknroll41 said:

Great write-up Acbagel!

Unfortunately I don’t think simply making “a little something for everyone” (i.e. different things for different people) is enough to unite the fandom, as each group generally seems to think Star Wars should only be made for their tastes specifically (even if not everyone admits it). Doesn’t help also that a ton of YouTubers nowadays make an entire living from hating Star Wars, no matter what it does.

Of all the groups you mentioned, I’m in the one that you described as “not very protective, fine with whatever direction Disney takes.” I honestly think at this point they should just keep doing whatever they’re doing, cause people will get mad no matter what. There was a time when even ESB was divisive, ffs!

Yeah I agree with this also. But Lucasfilm/Disney also need to have the balls to stick with projects or story direction. Don’t crib notes from fans. Sure learn from mistakes but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Key example: Solo.
The movie was perfectly fine. Did it set the world on fire? No. Were there other key issues that also effected it’s performance? Absolutely. But don’t set up an ongoing story and then abandon it because “shit happens”. Learn the right lessons and fix the errors. Make the next one a banger. Ensure the next in the Solo series is unmissable.

It’s the same now with the Acolyte. It was a bit hit/miss but there’s more story to be told. Learn the right lessons. Fix the main issues. Whether it’s pacing, character development, production quality, whatever. But back in your story. At the end of the day we just want good, well told stories that we can reflect on with satisfaction.

It was way more than “a bit” hit or miss, and the story literally can’t go anywhere because it will always result in the prequels happening. All it does is bash on the Jedi more in dumber and dumber ways.

They are cribbing notes from fans, the large group of prequel/Filoni fans who like anything that has prequel/Clone Wars/Rebels characters in it.

Vladius said:

Kellythatsit said:

rocknroll41 said:

Great write-up Acbagel!

Unfortunately I don’t think simply making “a little something for everyone” (i.e. different things for different people) is enough to unite the fandom, as each group generally seems to think Star Wars should only be made for their tastes specifically (even if not everyone admits it). Doesn’t help also that a ton of YouTubers nowadays make an entire living from hating Star Wars, no matter what it does.

Of all the groups you mentioned, I’m in the one that you described as “not very protective, fine with whatever direction Disney takes.” I honestly think at this point they should just keep doing whatever they’re doing, cause people will get mad no matter what. There was a time when even ESB was divisive, ffs!

Yeah I agree with this also. But Lucasfilm/Disney also need to have the balls to stick with projects or story direction. Don’t crib notes from fans. Sure learn from mistakes but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Key example: Solo.
The movie was perfectly fine. Did it set the world on fire? No. Were there other key issues that also effected it’s performance? Absolutely. But don’t set up an ongoing story and then abandon it because “shit happens”. Learn the right lessons and fix the errors. Make the next one a banger. Ensure the next in the Solo series is unmissable.

It’s the same now with the Acolyte. It was a bit hit/miss but there’s more story to be told. Learn the right lessons. Fix the main issues. Whether it’s pacing, character development, production quality, whatever. But back in your story. At the end of the day we just want good, well told stories that we can reflect on with satisfaction.

It was way more than “a bit” hit or miss, and the story literally can’t go anywhere because it will always result in the prequels happening. All it does is bash on the Jedi more in dumber and dumber ways.

They are cribbing notes from fans, the large group of prequel/Filoni fans who like anything that has prequel/Clone Wars/Rebels characters in it.

I think you’re forgetting that tons of people love the prequels and would love to see a well-told story of how the Jedi got to the point that they’re at during them. Just because some people don’t like them or how the Jedi are portrayed during the prequels doesn’t change that. There’s a whole lot of good storyline potential to exploring that shift regardless of whether or not some people want Star Wars to tackle that or not. What Disney Star Wars needs to do is appeal to fans of all 3 trilogies, but they really seem to only be catering to Prequel fans which is the main issue. Other than Andor there’s no Star Wars project attempting to appeal to fans of the original trilogy, and there are also no projects currently out trying to appeal to fans of the sequel trilogy. The only thing even attempting to target those fans is the currently in production Rey movie. They need to appeal to fans of all 3 and to do that they need to greenlight projects targeting each of these 3 eras.

Kellythatsit said:

Key example: Solo.
The movie was perfectly fine. Did it set the world on fire? No. Were there other key issues that also effected it’s performance? Absolutely. But don’t set up an ongoing story and then abandon it because “shit happens”. Learn the right lessons and fix the errors. Make the next one a banger. Ensure the next in the Solo series is unmissable.

Solo was deeply average but nothing to get irate about. The problem is that within the movie are tell-tale signs of people not understanding what works and what doesn’t; i.e. the infamous Solo name scene, awkward retcons and humour, the dumb fanservice ending. There are other aspects which mean it fails more than it succeeds, however it’s hardly the worst project around. I’d say the hit and miss rate was fifty-fifty overall.

The serious issue seems to be that as time has gone by anyone with half a brain has left or been pushed aside so now it’s ninety percent stuff that doesn’t work. Either as a result of writers and showrunners failing upwards or some other factor. Outside Andor most characters seem to be written as idiots and things like pacing and suspense no longer exist. It’s like they’re making this latest stuff with their eyes closed and have no powers of judgment.

daveybjones999 said:

Vladius said:

Kellythatsit said:

rocknroll41 said:

Great write-up Acbagel!

Unfortunately I don’t think simply making “a little something for everyone” (i.e. different things for different people) is enough to unite the fandom, as each group generally seems to think Star Wars should only be made for their tastes specifically (even if not everyone admits it). Doesn’t help also that a ton of YouTubers nowadays make an entire living from hating Star Wars, no matter what it does.

Of all the groups you mentioned, I’m in the one that you described as “not very protective, fine with whatever direction Disney takes.” I honestly think at this point they should just keep doing whatever they’re doing, cause people will get mad no matter what. There was a time when even ESB was divisive, ffs!

Yeah I agree with this also. But Lucasfilm/Disney also need to have the balls to stick with projects or story direction. Don’t crib notes from fans. Sure learn from mistakes but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Key example: Solo.
The movie was perfectly fine. Did it set the world on fire? No. Were there other key issues that also effected it’s performance? Absolutely. But don’t set up an ongoing story and then abandon it because “shit happens”. Learn the right lessons and fix the errors. Make the next one a banger. Ensure the next in the Solo series is unmissable.

It’s the same now with the Acolyte. It was a bit hit/miss but there’s more story to be told. Learn the right lessons. Fix the main issues. Whether it’s pacing, character development, production quality, whatever. But back in your story. At the end of the day we just want good, well told stories that we can reflect on with satisfaction.

It was way more than “a bit” hit or miss, and the story literally can’t go anywhere because it will always result in the prequels happening. All it does is bash on the Jedi more in dumber and dumber ways.

They are cribbing notes from fans, the large group of prequel/Filoni fans who like anything that has prequel/Clone Wars/Rebels characters in it.

I think you’re forgetting that tons of people love the prequels and would love to see a well-told story of how the Jedi got to the point that they’re at during them. Just because some people don’t like them or how the Jedi are portrayed during the prequels doesn’t change that. There’s a whole lot of good storyline potential to exploring that shift regardless of whether or not some people want Star Wars to tackle that or not. What Disney Star Wars needs to do is appeal to fans of all 3 trilogies, but they really seem to only be catering to Prequel fans which is the main issue. Other than Andor there’s no Star Wars project attempting to appeal to fans of the original trilogy, and there are also no projects currently out trying to appeal to fans of the sequel trilogy. The only thing even attempting to target those fans is the currently in production Rey movie. They need to appeal to fans of all 3 and to do that they need to greenlight projects targeting each of these 3 eras.

I didn’t forget, that’s why I said the large group. I said they are writing to appeal to that group (“cribbing notes” as the other person said.) I understand that those people are much more plentiful than people like me.

They don’t need to appeal to any particular group at all, especially not alleged sequel trilogy fans. Everything they do is already a mishmash of stormtroopers and TIE fighters with some prequel/clone stuff mixed in.

There’s this very famous press conference Anthony Mackie gave at the London Film and Comic Con in October 2017 where he said “They make movies for specific audiences as opposed to just making good movies”.

I think we can adapt this to the current state of Star Wars and say they tell stories for specific audiences as opposed to just telling good stories.

NFBisms said:

If I had to be earnest, I think Andor is the best Star Wars media probably ever produced? It’s perfect. So I will always be grateful for that.

But I think weirdly enough, Andor more than anything is what has allowed me to feel at peace with Star Wars? Like, I can put it to bed now. When I joke about ending it all, it’s coming from a real place of love and satisfaction. Not trying to be cynical.

The middling/bad nature of the prequels - and to a lesser extent, the sequels - has always left Star Wars an unresolved question in my mind. There’s potential here, I’d always imagined it, and I’ve always been looking for it - in books, in comics, in cartoons, the shows. I developed so much understanding of the universe along the way, to speculate about it like it was real, find interesting conceits to explore. I’ve never been fully satisfied with any one thing, and it only got harder as I got older, as I branched out and became a fan of other things.

But I always saved a place in my heart for Star Wars. So when the perfect cross section of where I am now as a film fan, and all this “language” I’ve honed over the years as a nerd came out - it was, idk, meaningful to me. I could “grow up” now, move on. Gilroy took every nerdy way I’ve thought about the Star Wars galaxy and put it into something I could genuinely enjoy as an adult. So removed from the canon being built on the other side of the franchise, so singular in its refraction of the OT story I already loved. And it was a Gilroy project through and through! As a big Michael Clayton-head, I couldn’t be more pleased.

I only came to this realization after not really feeling the subsequent releases (Mando, Ahsoka, Acolyte), but also not really feeling any kind of desire to “fix” them like I would. I wasn’t even disappointed. They just weren’t for me.

So Andor really changed the franchise for me, from an investment in its world and timeline, to a complete series of films I adore, a TV show that I love. I’ve gotten what I’ve always wanted from this whole thing and those movies aren’t going anywhere. And I think ultimately, even if it’s not Andor for you, that’s the end of the line for everyone at some point.

theprequelsrule said:

I am curious if there will ever come a point where the entire franchise gets a reboot. I couldn’t imagine such a thing a decade ago, but now…?

Is Star Wars still considered “too big” to do this? Too successful? Or is it a case of waiting for Lucas to die before such an idea could be entertained, morbid as that thought is?

It’s pretty much a matter of how much would be gained. The universe is huge so the only benefit would be redoing stories that have already been done with the same characters. They wouldn’t bother remaking bad stuff and remaking good stuff dooms them to impossible expectations. They already essentially remade the OT and we saw how that went. It also proves they don’t even need a reboot to remake something. There was a time where a PT remake would’ve been celebrated, but that ship has sailed. Also they already did a reboot when they ditched Legends.

Fan_edit_fan said:

I’m also, of the opinion that most of the recent stuff isn’t even salvageable through “editing”. Most of the content is so empty to begin with that there is not much to enjoy after all the tight cutting anyway.

I agree with this. Fanediting can only bring out the good stuff by cutting the bad. It can’t bring out something that isn’t there, and modern Star Wars is just hollow. And for the record I count Solo as part of that.

fmalover said:

There’s this very famous press conference Anthony Mackie gave at the London Film and Comic Con in October 2017 where he said “They make movies for specific audiences as opposed to just making good movies”.

I think we can adapt this to the current state of Star Wars and say they tell stories for specific audiences as opposed to just telling good stories.

Movies should be made because someone had a good idea or a good story, not to please some imagined demographic. That’s how you get TROS.

I agree Skybatman.

I’m hopeful if they keep damaging the brand over and over again like they are, eventually it will get to the point they have to sell it because there’s no return anymore. So long as Disney’s name is attached to it, no ones showing up. This would be the absolute best outcome for the brand.

The fact they keep doubling down on terrible ideas, tells me they are gonna do just that.

Disney selling Lucasfilm is very much a pipe dream.

WitchDR said:

I agree Skybatman.

I’m hopeful if they keep damaging the brand over and over again like they are, eventually it will get to the point they have to sell it because there’s no return anymore. So long as Disney’s name is attached to it, no ones showing up. This would be the absolute best outcome for the brand.

The fact they keep doubling down on terrible ideas, tells me they are gonna do just that.

Star Wars makes too much money from merchandising for it to ever not be profitable. If they ever wanted to give up on making Star Wars they’ll probably just sit on the IP like dragons.

Disney clearly isn’t the problem when Alien Romulus and Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes prove they can successfully and even respectfully handle franchises once held by FOX.

They were handed a golden opportunity and a great IP on a silver platter for 4 billion with Star Wars. It’s all LucasFilm, the direction of Star Wars is run by Lucasfilm.

If Star Wars is good credit Kathleen Kennedy, if it is bad criticize.

The thing is, a lot of the stuff we’ve seen from Disney+ Star Wars seems unusually and atypically bad - suggesting problems that go beyond the typical writing and development mishaps you’d expect from most mediocre productions. The biggest example of this is probably undoing the entire Mandalorian Season 2 arc - by shoehorning in a subplot in an entirely different show no less - presumably because Disney execs were terrified about the prospect of losing baby Yoda.

Also, while Mandalorian Season 1 and 2 are overrated, they didn’t quite fall off into the abyss of bad writing like later shows. Apart from Andor, it seems there was a steep drop in quality beginning with Book of Boba Fett and Mandalorian Season 3. Because this drop in quality occurred at the same time as the bizarre decision to back track the entire season-level arc in Mandalorian, it’s difficult not to assume there was massive studio interference leading to things like demoralization or apathy among writers. At least, it feels like some people like Jon Favreau may have just checked out creatively after that.

NFBisms said:

Something I’ve been thinking about (and this is perhaps American centric) in regards to the current approach is how much better all of this would have played in a different time. As we further burn through the backlog of Chapek’s tenure over-investing in D+ (yes, there’s context) - it’s clear all of these new shows have been targeting different audiences, and that the streaming landscape where every studio is their own distributor has done zero favors to that end. Handicapped it, even.

Back in the day, all of this would be optioned out / syndicated to different networks!

Mandalorian-verse to primetime (ABC/Fox/etc)
Bad Batch + animateds (maybe even Ahsoka) to Cartoon Network
Andor to whichever premium cable channel
The Acolyte to Freeform, The CW or MTV
Skeleton Crew to ABC Family
Obi-Wan as Direct-to-Video miniseries/movie
etc, etc.

It used to be such an important part of a media’s identity, where it played, who it was for. It was “easier” for many to skip The Clone Wars because being on Cartoon Network implied certain things about its prescribed audience. The Star Wars movies were being marathoned elsewhere after all, on TNT or the USA Network.

The shows wouldn’t be better (maybe they would, w/ network guidelines) but as “consumers”, our choices would inherently be better informed.

What the Disney+ of it all does is put all the shows on the same expectation for a broad subscriber base - the same audiences - even if that’s not what they’re trying to do. Even to unsubscribed spectators looking from afar, in other countries even, it all becomes a series working through the “latest installments”, not a franchise with diversified demographic objectives. We have to figure out this stuff by waiting for a thing to come out, a waste of everyone’s time.

To say less of the “Disney” branding itself being inescapable and inflexible. It has completely painted the way y’all have engaged with the work of like five different creative teams. My frustration with that aside, I can’t even really blame those fans for it. Streaming and the growing monopolies in media have just been doubling down into being their own distributors, becoming “brand families”, etc. - the ways of figuring out profit/strategy for this stuff is stuck between antiquity and new media.

At the same time, this stuff wouldn’t even exist without streaming economics being fucked up. Luckily, hopefully, like I alluded to before, it really is a case of us reacting to a backlog. Shows take a while to produce, we’re just catching up to what’s probably been figured out over a year ago. That isn’t optimism about corporate good sense mind you, it’s just that literally, we’ve been seeing the illusion of the streaming model tangibly break down all across the industry the past few years. I think if we’re talking about what’s coming next, some of what has been expressed in this thread is coming. The slow downs, the return to films, etc. Whether or not that era will be any good is another question.

I see what you’re saying and there probably would be less backlash, but I think the shows probably would be a lot better as well. There would be greater independence and the networks would focus more on trying to get ratings and repeat viewers every week, rather than a sort of abstract thing where they make the equivalent of TV movies to increase the relative prestige and value of a subscription. The networks themselves would all front the costs of the shows and do more with less, rather than Disney’s own shows all competing with each other for budget and sometimes pointlessly ballooning into millions and millions of dollars.

The problems they have at LFL now are probably the same ones they used to have. It’s all so insular and self contained so nobody speaks up. In late 1990s George did all this garbage and everyone was too afraid to tell him. And anyway, it’s probably okay because it’s Star Wars and it can’t fail. In the Disney era they’re all busy patting each other on the back for their efforts, and even it they know it’s bad that’s okay because Star Wars can’t fail. Andor probably succeeded by pure luck because after Mando they threw a net out and picked five or six shows with different genre ideas, and somehow one was good.

Skeleton Crew is the latest example. It looks kinda weird and mediocre and it’s been made by two guys coasting along thanks to IP success. But I feel like maybe this is the end of things as they have been; I can’t see audiences caring as much now. I can see people getting fired but maybe that’s what is necessary. The current era needs to end and is unlikely to be sustainable.

NFBisms said:

and we’re back, love it when things are just lucky

Excuse me?

NFBisms said:

But also - Jon Favreau could just be a hack. (affectionate)

I believe that just as easily, he’s always been of a piece with the Russos, Shawn Levy, and JJ Abrams - business is a part of their art. Grogu was always his baby - his marketing savvy - he doesn’t need the studio to tell him to retreat back into it.

And that doesn’t mean execs didn’t, but at what point in the blanket diagnoses does Gilroy’s blank check from saving R1 reconcile with what should be Favreau’s for delivering Mandalorian?

Favreau is probably like 65% a hack, I agree - but the problems with these Disney+ shows just appear to me like issues that go above and beyond what you’d expect just from writing blank checks to creative types.

I mean, what they pulled with Mandalorian Season 3 (bringing back Grogu in a spin-off show) is just unprecedented levels of baffling stupidity or desperation. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything close to this with a mainstream television show, at least not since the late 80s when some network executives decided to retcon an entire season of Dallas into a bad dream.

NFBisms said:

Vladius said:

NFBisms said:

Something I’ve been thinking about (and this is perhaps American centric) in regards to the current approach is how much better all of this would have played in a different time. As we further burn through the backlog of Chapek’s tenure over-investing in D+ (yes, there’s context) - it’s clear all of these new shows have been targeting different audiences, and that the streaming landscape where every studio is their own distributor has done zero favors to that end. Handicapped it, even.

Back in the day, all of this would be optioned out / syndicated to different networks!

Mandalorian-verse to primetime (ABC/Fox/etc)
Bad Batch + animateds (maybe even Ahsoka) to Cartoon Network
Andor to whichever premium cable channel
The Acolyte to Freeform, The CW or MTV
Skeleton Crew to ABC Family
Obi-Wan as Direct-to-Video miniseries/movie
etc, etc.

It used to be such an important part of a media’s identity, where it played, who it was for. It was “easier” for many to skip The Clone Wars because being on Cartoon Network implied certain things about its prescribed audience. The Star Wars movies were being marathoned elsewhere after all, on TNT or the USA Network.

The shows wouldn’t be better (maybe they would, w/ network guidelines) but as “consumers”, our choices would inherently be better informed.

What the Disney+ of it all does is put all the shows on the same expectation for a broad subscriber base - the same audiences - even if that’s not what they’re trying to do. Even to unsubscribed spectators looking from afar, in other countries even, it all becomes a series working through the “latest installments”, not a franchise with diversified demographic objectives. We have to figure out this stuff by waiting for a thing to come out, a waste of everyone’s time.

To say less of the “Disney” branding itself being inescapable and inflexible. It has completely painted the way y’all have engaged with the work of like five different creative teams. My frustration with that aside, I can’t even really blame those fans for it. Streaming and the growing monopolies in media have just been doubling down into being their own distributors, becoming “brand families”, etc. - the ways of figuring out profit/strategy for this stuff is stuck between antiquity and new media.

At the same time, this stuff wouldn’t even exist without streaming economics being fucked up. Luckily, hopefully, like I alluded to before, it really is a case of us reacting to a backlog. Shows take a while to produce, we’re just catching up to what’s probably been figured out over a year ago. That isn’t optimism about corporate good sense mind you, it’s just that literally, we’ve been seeing the illusion of the streaming model tangibly break down all across the industry the past few years. I think if we’re talking about what’s coming next, some of what has been expressed in this thread is coming. The slow downs, the return to films, etc. Whether or not that era will be any good is another question.

I see what you’re saying and there probably would be less backlash, but I think the shows probably would be a lot better as well. There would be greater independence and the networks would focus more on trying to get ratings and repeat viewers every week, rather than a sort of abstract thing where they make the equivalent of TV movies to increase the relative prestige and value of a subscription. The networks themselves would all front the costs of the shows and do more with less, rather than Disney’s own shows all competing with each other for budget and sometimes pointlessly ballooning into millions and millions of dollars.

I do agree with this, I was just contending with the shows as they currently exist but realistically there would be more of a collaboration between the network and studio in this scenario.

I think a “good” example of what we’re talking about is Marvel TV pre-2020. I think that whole thing is in a similarly diluted, played-out spot as Star Wars nowadays - but before Disney+ really took off, they had just as many different properties, if not more. The different ecosystems they nurtured kept the brand(s) healthy, fans didn’t feel like they had to watch everything until it doubled down into making Disney+ Events™️ every season. Now those fans don’t care in much the same way Star Wars fans don’t.

But at one point this had been their presence on TV:

ABC
Agents of SHIELD
Inhumans
Agent Carter

Freeform
Cloak and Dagger

Hulu
Runaways
Helstrom

Netflix
Daredevil
Luke Cage
Jessica Jones
Iron Fist
Defenders

And that is just stuff that was [ostensibly] for their healthy MCU. There were still their cartoons and other “non-canon” shows (Legion on FX). Eventually it all becomes that franchise’s version of Legends when they focus in on D+, but at the time it didn’t dilute the energy for Infinity War or Endgame. When I talk about Star Wars following that example, I’ll be clear that I’d rather there just be less of it overall, but when dealing with the hand they have - they should have leaned further in this direction.

Making everything a Disney+ event is doing them no favors. “Disney+” in general is just rough branding.

That’s still a very high miss rate but it does look better from a PR perspective. Of those, Daredevil was the only truly great one, though a lot of people liked Jessica Jones, and Agents of Shield was decent sometimes.