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Were the Jedi supposed to not be allowed to get married, have children or any possessions when the OT was made?

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As the thread title says, I’m wondering what the plan was. The PT’s depiction of the Jedi doesn’t seem to mesh with what we hear in the OT. Or Ben is lying through his teeth and Yoda is withholding vital information.

Ben:
Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough… But the Jedi weren’t actually allowed to have children or possessions, so I shouldn’t even be talking about this.

Ben throws the lightsaber over his shoulder.

The Force will be with you. Always.

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No, the “no romantic attachments” rule didn’t appear explicitly until Attack of the Clones, although arguably a more nebulous form of this rule was hinted at in Phantom Menace. But the OT definitely never even considered the idea of “no romantic attachments” as a possibility. The pre-Prequel EU of course never considered this idea either, and thus we had Jedi getting involved in romance like everyone else (e.g. Mara Jade, etc.).

You can argue further (as you point out) that the OT not only doesn’t have this rule, it outright contradicts this rule, since we hear that Anakin had offspring and the movies never indicate this was in any way weird or not expected of a Jedi.

Also, having offspring is possible without romantic attachments. The Jedi rule is specifically about romantic attachments. Arguably, some species that say, reproduces by laying eggs and then just abandoning them (as is done by many species on Earth) would be allowed to be a Jedi AND have kids.

There have been a couple of in-depth discussions about this issue in previous threads in this forum.

The general consensus around here is probably that romantic attachments were allowed until George Lucas decided to inject some Romeo and Juliet into his love story, because he didn’t know how to write a love story. I mostly agree with this sentiment, but consider it a bit too reductive, since arguably the “no romantic attachment rule” could be considered a logical consequence of the Jedi’s general dislike of emotional attachments, which was implied (if somewhat muddled) in The Phantom Menace when they bring up Anakin’s fear of losing his mom.

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There’s this line of dialogue from the rough draft, spoken by General Luke Skywalker to Annikin Starkiller:

“You are trained well, but remember, a JEDI must be single-minded, a discipline your father obviously never learned, hence your existence.”

So from early on, Lucas entertained the notion that celibacy was valued by the Jedi. That said, it wasn’t a hard-and-fast rule that Jedi were dogmatically required to adhere to; there’s nothing in the rough draft implying Skywalker held Kane Starkiller in contempt for siring offspring.

My memory of the second-to-third drafts in much hazier, but I recall a mention that in their prime, the Jedi consisted of several hundred families. Again, an indication that celibacy wasn’t a inviolate rule until the prequels were made.

Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.

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No, but what it really meant to be a Jedi wasn’t fleshed out anyway in the OT outside of what it meant for Luke’s growth as a character.

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Obi-wan says that Anakin was a good friend… and doesn’t mention any kind of rule breaking by having a child. The idea of the dark side giving easier access to strength and power is one thing, but linking it to romance is a bizarre later addition. In fact all the OT discussion of the Force relates to things like a lust for action and excitement, in opposition to the peaceful zen-like themes of the Jedi way. What does not having friends and family have to do with being a good Guardian of the Republic?

I get the feeling that George mis-remembered ESB and the scene where Yoda tells Luke not to risk the future by running off to save his friends. Surely if attachment was a no-no then Luke would have a problem rescuing Vader? Isn’t being sad and trying to get him back against the Jedi way? I get that it wasn’t fleshed out until later but the PT stuff is ridiculous, and often contradicts itself anyway.

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Clearly not. That’s what is so annoying about all the people who think the “light side” equals “no emotions” and the “dark side” equals “strong emotions.” It doesn’t and has never worked that way, but they think it does because the prequels don’t clarify anything. All the source material before Attack of the Clones suggests Jedi with families and children.

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In the early to mid 1970’s, the “Rough Drafts” for Star Wars, we had the Jedi Kane Starkiller being a father to two children, Deak and Annikin:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kane_Starkiller & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_1

and like Superweapon VII, I think the later drafts also had some mention of Jedi having families or offspring too.

 
 

In the official 1983 Return of the Jedi novelization, by James Kahn, we have Ben Kenobi telling Luke that Owen was his own brother:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Return_of_the_Jedi_(novelization)#Differences_from_later_works

 
 

In the official licensed 1995 Premiere Limited set of the Star Wars Customizable Card Game, released by Decipher, it is stated that Owen Lars is the “brother of Obi-Wan Kenobi”:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Premiere_Limited & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Owen_(Kenobi)

 
 

In the Tales of the Jedi comic books, from 1993 to 1998, Jedi had families and children too. Notably Nomi Sunrider, who was wife of a Jedi, became a Jedi herself, and her daughter Vima, also became a Jedi. The family had a personal droid, A-3DO, so I think that may count as a “possession” too?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider

 
 

Kam and Tionne Solusar, both Jedi, were already married by “Star Wars: Union” comics (1999-2000) and had been married for some prior to Luke to Mara Jade getting married to each other. Kam was the son of Ranik Solusar, a Jedi Master slain by Darth Vader.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kam_Solusar & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Tionne_Solusar

 
 

Luke marrying Mara Jade in “Star Wars: Union” comics (1999-2000) (note the red lightsaber in the image below!): https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wedding_of_Luke_Skywalker_and_Mara_Jade - and would obviously have a child (Ben)

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Union

 
 

Corran Horn and Mirax Terrik were married sometime after the Bacta War and before 1998’s “I, Jedi”, where Corran had to further improve his force skills in order to save his wife:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wedding_of_Corran_Horn_and_Mirax_Terrik

They had 2 children, when Corran was a Jedi Master.

Corran’s grandfather was a Jedi too:

Nejaa Halcyon, a Jedi Master, grandfather of Corran Horn - https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Nejaa_Halcyon

Valin Horn, a Jedi knight, son of Corran Horn - https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Valin_Horn

Jysella Horn, a Jedi knight, daughter of Corran Horn - https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jysella_Horn

 
 

Quinlan Vos had a relationship with Khaleen Hentz. They had a child, named Korto Vos.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Quinlan_Vos/Legends & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Khaleen_Hentz

 
 

Kento and Mallie Marek were both Jedi, and had a son, Galen Marek, aka “Starkiller” (in the 2007 “The Force Unleashed” videogame, that George Lucas actually considered part of the main Saga story).

We see Galen father, Kento Marek, at the start of The Force Unleashed video game. We don’t see Galen’s mother as she died before the events of the game:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kento_Marek & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mallie_Marek

 
 

Jedi Master Thracia Cho Leem married multiple times and had several children. She resigned from the Jedi Order without explanation prior to the Clone Wars (in 2000’s Rogue Planet novel?)

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Thracia_Cho_Leem

 
 

Jedi Knights Callista Ming and Geith Eris also had a relationship, in the Clone Wars era:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Geith_Eris & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Callista_Ming#Personality_and_traits

 
 

In the TOR era (and video game):

Kira Carsen was a Jedi, whose parents were both Sith. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kira_Carsen

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kira_Carsen's_father & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kira_Carsen's_mother

In the game you can marry, or have a romantic relationship, with your Jedi apprentices. One of whom is Kira Carsen.

 
^ The same applying to Nadia Grell:

‘Nadia Grell is a companion character for the Jedi Consular class of Star Wars: The Old Republic. In the original class storyline, she was a romance option only for male player characters. After she returned in the “Jedi Under Siege” update,[6] she became a romance option for all Jedi Consulars regardless of gender.’

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Nadia_Grell
 

Lana Beniko is a similar Dark/Sith side character: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lana_Beniko#Behind_the_scenes

 
 

In the 2014 Rebels animated series, set just before the OT, Jedi Knight Kanan Jarrus marries fellow rebel Hera Syndulla and they raise a child named Jacen Syndulla (who has force abilities).

 
 

Jedi Masters T’ra Saa and Tholme fell in love, had a relationship, but ultimately did not get married.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T'ra_Saa & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Tholme/Legends

 
 

As Vladius posted above: “All the source material before Attack of the Clones suggests Jedi with families and children.

I think many of us before Episode II thought it was just natural that a number of the Jedi did have partners, families and children, had their own homes or dwellings, and had some possessions, like droids, and so on.

Then George Lucas just thought he needed to create a “forbidden love” subplot in AOTC, while lacking the skill to coherently write it. And he unfortunately didn’t get in someone who could. For some reason, this 2002-ish invented “forbidden love” rule has stuck, in the main.

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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I forgot about these two couples:
 

Jedi Knight Etain Tur-Mukan and Clone commander Darman Skirata fell in love in the “Republic Commando” series of books (part of the 2002-2007 Clone Wars multimedia project), and had a force sensitive child, Venku Skirata, who was force senstive himself.

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-etain-tur-mukan-darman-skirata-marriage

 

At the other end of the timeline, in the Old Republic, there is the Jedi who married a Sith (from a certain point of view), when Bastia Shan married Revan, and also had a child together.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wedding_of_Revan_and_Bastila_Shan (in the 2011 novel “The Old Republic: Revan”)

 

There a many more Jedi who married or who had long term relationships, children, possessions and so on, but the above were just the main characters that sprung to my mind.

 

I haven’t read “Light Of The Jedi”, or much of The High Republic, set 500 BBY to 100 BBY, but in there are apparently Jedi who fall in love, have intimate relationships, and also form emotional attachments:-

https://gizmodo.com/the-high-republics-jedi-should-be-living-in-a-golden-ag-1846183927

'For as different as they might initially seem, Avar [Kriss] and Elzar [Mann] are presented as extremely close friends in the novel, having grown up as fellow younglings, Padawans, Knights, and eventually by the time of the book’s end, Masters of the Order. They go everywhere together, on missions or on downtime. They are compassionate for each other, clearly. Their connection together allows them, as Jedi, to do spectacular things with the Force multiple times in the novel, building on Avar’s own unique ability to connect her fellow Jedi through the Force in powerful acts of sensitivity. One of the last scenes in Light between the two confirms something that felt keenly obvious in looking at their relationship throughout: at one point, as younger Jedi, Avar and Elzar were romantically entwined, before choosing to amicably separate to focus on their studies as apprentices of the Force.

Two Jedi. Two Jedi who loved each other. Who still do. Who are not just good friends, but deeply intimate with each other in a way that goes beyond friendship. Two Jedi who are, by very much any definition of the word, still emotionally attached to each other.’

 
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Avar_Kriss & https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Elzar_Mann

 
 


 
 

Star Wars Prequels Were Mapped Out By George Lucas & Lawrence Kasdan In 1981: Exclusive Excerpt From The Making Of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi

^ a 2013 article at the Huffington Post, promoting JW Rinzler’s ‘Making Of Return Of The Jedi’ book.
 

As the screenshot below highlights, the following conversation is from the July 1981 story conference for “Revenge of the Jedi”, covering a number of topics, including:

George discussing Anakin having a wife, and her being pregnant with Luke and Leia, like it is a completely normal thing for a Jedi to do. Eventually she gives birth to the twins. George also stating that ‘because the Skywalker line is so strong in the Force’, Obi Wan tells her “I think we should protect the kids, because they may be able to help us to right the wrong your husband has created in the universe”:

 

Edit: there is more on this, and the pre-PT era lore in general, in this new thread:

Pre-PT era lore | an OT & EU scrapbook resource | additional info & sources welcome

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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Channel72 said:

No, the “no romantic attachments” rule didn’t appear explicitly until Attack of the Clones, although arguably a more nebulous form of this rule was hinted at in Phantom Menace. But the OT definitely never even considered the idea of “no romantic attachments” as a possibility. The pre-Prequel EU of course never considered this idea either, and thus we had Jedi getting involved in romance like everyone else (e.g. Mara Jade, etc.).

You can argue further (as you point out) that the OT not only doesn’t have this rule, it outright contradicts this rule, since we hear that Anakin had offspring and the movies never indicate this was in any way weird or not expected of a Jedi.

Also, having offspring is possible without romantic attachments. The Jedi rule is specifically about romantic attachments. Arguably, some species that say, reproduces by laying eggs and then just abandoning them (as is done by many species on Earth) would be allowed to be a Jedi AND have kids.

There have been a couple of in-depth discussions about this issue in previous threads in this forum.

The general consensus around here is probably that romantic attachments were allowed until George Lucas decided to inject some Romeo and Juliet into his love story, because he didn’t know how to write a love story. I mostly agree with this sentiment, but consider it a bit too reductive, since arguably the “no romantic attachment rule” could be considered a logical consequence of the Jedi’s general dislike of emotional attachments, which was implied (if somewhat muddled) in The Phantom Menace when they bring up Anakin’s fear of losing his mom.

I’d agree with pretty much all of that, and especially the part in bold. Even today, barring “romantic attachments” etc in AOTC comes across as an outlier, something written to be “Romeo & Juliet” or rebellious love as you posted, and just not executed very well at all. Going from learning about this “rule” to actually seeing them “fall in love”, to getting married by the end of the film, despite his genocidal tendencies, raises other questions about the characters and story being told.

It isn’t difficult to see why other writers (whether in EU, legends, canon or whatever), have basically ignored this
“forbidden romantic attachments” rule introduced in AOTC, or simply written around it.

 

Sideburns of BoShek said:

I haven’t read “Light Of The Jedi”, or much of The High Republic, set 500 BBY to 100 BBY, but in there are apparently Jedi who fall in love, have intimate relationships, and also form emotional attachments:-

https://gizmodo.com/the-high-republics-jedi-should-be-living-in-a-golden-ag-1846183927

'For as different as they might initially seem, Avar [Kriss] and Elzar [Mann] are presented as extremely close friends in the novel, having grown up as fellow younglings, Padawans, Knights, and eventually by the time of the book’s end, Masters of the Order. They go everywhere together, on missions or on downtime. They are compassionate for each other, clearly. Their connection together allows them, as Jedi, to do spectacular things with the Force multiple times in the novel, building on Avar’s own unique ability to connect her fellow Jedi through the Force in powerful acts of sensitivity. One of the last scenes in Light between the two confirms something that felt keenly obvious in looking at their relationship throughout: at one point, as younger Jedi, Avar and Elzar were romantically entwined, before choosing to amicably separate to focus on their studies as apprentices of the Force.

Two Jedi. Two Jedi who loved each other. Who still do. Who are not just good friends, but deeply intimate with each other in a way that goes beyond friendship. Two Jedi who are, by very much any definition of the word, still emotionally attached to each other.’

Another “+” for the High Republic.

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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Caston said:

Another “+” for the High Republic.

I hope we will see some Jedi in relationships on screen, in The Acolyte. As The Acolyte is set in The High Republic era, at their supposed height and best, and we know there are several Jedi in relationships from the books and comics, maybe we’ll actually see some Jedi in actual relationships.

Though I am mainly hoping for a good series, something more like Andor, rather than the more Mandoverse recent series.

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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From everything they’ve said about the show it’s about how the Jedi suck so bad, so I doubt it.

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Another thing to consider: we often forget about this, given how awkward it turned out to be in retrospect, but in the OT (or at least for most of the OT), Luke Skywalker is implied to have a romantic interest in Leia. In A New Hope, Luke thinks she’s beautiful and she is part of Luke’s entire reason for following Obi Wan on the adventure. Towards the end of the movie, an implied love triangle emerges between Han, Luke and Leia. In Empire Strikes Back, Luke seemingly is still attracted to Leia, although his attraction is serendipitously downplayed in the actual film compared to what happens in earlier drafts. (In Brackett’s first draft, it’s implied that a major reason for Luke wanting to be a Jedi is to impress Leia and compete with Han.)

So how do they resolve the love triangle? One easy way would be to just have Yoda straight up tell Luke: “Forget about Leia. It’s not happening. Jedi can’t have romantic attachments, because it just makes it easier to fall to the Dark Side.” But that’s not what happens. Yoda never says anything about Luke’s feelings for Leia (apart from the more generic concern expressed by Yoda that Luke not abandon his training to help his friends). Instead, the love triangle is eventually resolved when we discover Leia is Luke’s sister. This is yet more evidence that the “no romantic attachment” rule was never even considered as a possible idea when the OT was written.

One last thought: it’s interesting that Return of the Jedi decided to keep the imagery of the implied romance between Luke and Leia. Luke and Leia swing together on a rope off Jabba’s sail barge, Leia dressed in a sexy golden bikini in the arms of a confident, mature Luke - implying a swashbuckling romance between the two of them. All that sexual imagery is of course defused once we discover they’re brother and sister, but it’s weird that it’s still in the movie. (More evidence of how late an addition the whole Leia=sister idea probably was.)

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I finished reading Dark Empire 1-3 and I’m reading I, Jedi right now (which is also a retelling of the Jedi Academy trilogy.) It’s incredible how much it relates to this thread. Of the first Jedi in the new era, 3/4 of them are Jedi because their father or grandfather was a Jedi and the training was passed down to their kids. (Luke, Corran Horn, and Kam Solusar.) There is open discussion of people falling in love, getting widowed, remarrying, etc. Corellia has its own Jedi tradition, which was passed down through Jedi families.

The prequels are a giant swollen retcon, and not for the better.

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Vladius said:

I finished reading Dark Empire 1-3 and I’m reading I, Jedi right now (which is also a retelling of the Jedi Academy trilogy.) It’s incredible how much it relates to this thread. Of the first Jedi in the new era, 3/4 of them are Jedi because their father or grandfather was a Jedi and the training was passed down to their kids. (Luke, Corran Horn, and Kam Solusar.) There is open discussion of people falling in love, getting widowed, remarrying, etc. Corellia has its own Jedi tradition, which was passed down through Jedi families.

The prequels are a giant swollen retcon, and not for the better.

Also Corran mentions Tatooine is Obi-Wan’s homeworld, and Luke doesn’t correct him.

Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.

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From the Dark Empire Sourcebook:

Damn, that’s at least two generations of Boda women getting away with having children and raising them as Jedi with the Council being none the wiser. How did they ever manage, lol.

Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.