Idea: a 'Waterworld' Laserdisc Preservation? (* unfinished project - lots of info *)

Hi i’m planing a laserdisc preservation of Waterworld.

Already own the US DTS Laserdisc and a German PAL Laserdisc.

I’m asking myself this: Is it worth the effort? I have copy of the HD DVD and it seems that they haven’t changed much in terms of colortiming/levels. So i might as well go the route and confirm the soundtracks to the HD DVD Master.

If i’m going to do an “advanced” LD Capture, this is going to be captured lossless via a Blackmagic Card and a Pioneer CLD 2950 Player. Haven’t yet decieded whether to use the S-VHS out or composite and use my Pioneer 560 DVR as combfilter (it has one of the best combfilters, on par with top-of-line LD players). I would offer screenshots/videocomparions for all to see.

If i/you/we find its not worth the effort i’ll probably just capture the LD with the DVR (max. HQ) remux the stream and include all the soundtracks afterwards.

I might as well offer is the raw DTS/PCM whatever tracks, if anyone is interesseted.

Thoughts?

What i already did is, use the composite out (HQ circut aka lowpass: off) of the 2950 and made some HDD recordings directly via the 560 (highest bitrate setting). It may sound strange to some using the composite when there is an s-video out, but this just gives the best results. Very natural looking image.

Here is what it looks like:

http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/7noqtvyycvwh6zvevgs54yxx92lhvf33/

I have NO problem with motion smearing, checkerboards or the like (scenes changes are also not affected in any way). I use very lets say "convervative" approach on filtering inside the 560. Setting are all set to "minimum" or "full motion" (no temporal smearing). I think Pioneer used all their experience from the high-end Laserdiscs players and put them into these things. The combfilter is great.

If you consider this is just a no-post-live-compression it looks quite nice already (did some high-motion caps to show that there is no smearing). Even more impressiv considering all these fine nets und structures, very hardcore for the combing.

Edit: For anyone interesseted seeing it in motion, a sample of the raw untouched mpeg2-stream from the 2950/560 test-capture (PAL LD): http://www.sendspace.com/file/smyzhi

The most distracting thing for me is the digital compressions artifacts, but like a said, IF i'm going to put some work into it, i'll go uncompressed so this a non-issue.

In case it's any help there's a good discussion on the sound mixes here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Waterworld-DTS-40-original-mix/post/646192/

Sounds like Jetrell Fo has the theatrical DTS, which would be a terrific addition.

Thanks for pointing me out to the 4.0 DTS mix, would be a nice companion to the 5.1 DTS LD soundtrack indeed!

Ok i took a look at the HD-DVD vs. the PAL Laserdisc and tried some cc on the HD DVD material. Except for nostalgic reasons i don't see much benefit in using the laserdisc:

HD DVD:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/130827/4ocpr9yt.png

LD:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/130827/h8sv4zui.png

HD DVD color-corrected (frist attempt, open for suggestions):

http://s14.directupload.net/images/130827/n74wra3e.png

The HD-DVD does not look very good in the first place is of low resolution + bad telecine (old master) + heavy processing, but i still think its looks alright somehow.

If anyone would be interessted in a "pure" LD perservation i could make one using the 560 and put it somewhere? (Quality would match what you see in post above).

Thoughts?

Any laserdisc preservation is a welcome preservation in my books!

What about the Cinema DTS audio?

Sounds good! Lets do this. Audio will be collected from the LDs for sure.

The cinema DTS could be included, i would like that.

Regarding the colors i purpose making them more like "the LD". Since the US Version differs from the PAL release regarding color (desaturated vs. oversaturted) i think we take the best of both worlds. The HD DVD pushes the color a bit against yellow/teal.

So tried making them look a bit more like the LD, its a subtle change - but its a change:

HD DVD (color like LD):

http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/dulljet6s89ktw8scphjvns2ecsd3mqh/

HD DVD (original colors):

http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/cej394q2zy5qh51wkp3jlwxc7gdt53mi/

What i found is that there is no detail in the HD DVD master above roughly 1024x576px. So i think if we go 720p (1280x720) this should be enough to capture all the details present in the "HD" master. There is absolutly NO visible difference between 720p and 1080p in this case, so i think 720p will be fine.

Again: if there a some might like to have an unaltered LD preservation including the LD-picture, this could be done additionally as a "side-project".

I finished the cinema DTS that i got from Jetrell Fo and it syncs with the hd-dvd.

Wow there really is no difference with hd-dvd and LD other than color. I like the LD alot more though.

LOL  whoops i didn't even read HD DVD (color like LD)  ok never mind then, i think i'm too darn tired.

Thanks for clearing that one up Andrea

what about the dts-dvd?

AntcuFaalb said:

Checkerboarding is a common 3D comb filter artifact. Most 3D comb filters exhibit it on sharp shot-changes.

It looks like this...

(Hint: Look at the weird pattern on the dancer's arm.)

Are you positive that you don't see this at all with the 560H?

I use 3D combing on very moderate level as this LD is of very high mastering quality (like i said all these parameters are adjustable on the 560) and have not encountered this artifacts. Look at the sample video i posted above.

I did also own a PMS Crystalio II once. This thing has one THE BEST combfilters ever build supposedly but the one in the 560 is nearly on the same level (and on par with its bigger brothers fromt the Pioneer LX line).

But since we've agreed to use the HD picture and color correct it, i think this is not an issue anyway.

I found out that the BD is virtually identical to the HD-DVD picture-wise (HD-DVD is VC1 and BD is AVC Encoded, but there no visible difference).

So i don't know its any need "perserving" the stuff that is easily available on the BD.

I think we should to stick hats now considered "obsolete" - meaing: the old colortiming and Cinema DTS and laserdisc audio (DTS, PCM, AC-3) probably the DD+ Tracks from the HD-DVDs? I would be willing to include the DVD DTS if its in any way special? If you some could be provide this track i'll look into it.

I take it the Cinema DTS is the 4.0 mix? why indlude the DD+ over the DTS-HD?

Actually the reels i received from Shawn were 5.1, even i thought they would be 4.0 but that wasn't the case. Maybe the software that converted them to waves added the other channels when it shouldn't have?

Hmmmmm that is an odd one

dvdmike said:

I take it the Cinema DTS is the 4.0 mix? why indlude the DD+ over the DTS-HD?

Like i said, i don't see much reason to include the Blu-ray DTS-MA since its available. This would only increase the filesize several GB without adding anything that needs to be "preserved".

To include the DD+ tracks wouldn't make much sense... i know. If it does not turn out they contain a special mix i'll drop them, i guess.

But its not yet decided. I was planning on comparing all the tracks, once i have them all. I will share what i find with you guys and then we'll see what makes sense an what doesn't.

Regarding 5.1 vs. 4.0 thats odd, i agree. It should just be 4 channels otherwise something was changed in the process... hmm.

Hmmm - re. the theatrical DTS, three possibilities here;

1 - Waterworld had 5.1 DTS theatrically (as suggested in the other thread by the guy who actually did the mix) and the 4.0 information is incorrect

2 - Shawn's 4.0 rip had to be remapped within 5.1 because the decoder dictated it, but it still only consists of four discrete channels of information - have you checked that the LFE has content and the surrounds are split?

3 - The encoder actually processed the channels to derive a full 5.1 spread (including frequency filtering for the LFE). Obviously this is an undesirable outcome if we're after preservation

Anyway, I'm sure Shawn can quickly clear this up. Taking a long view on the choice of tracks, I'd suggest the following:

Theatrical DTS
Theatrical Dolby SR stereo (as represented by the LD PCM)
Blu-ray DTS-HD MA (a modern home theatre mix in lossless format)

Plus any foreign language dubs, subtitles that people request? That should cover all the generations of this soundtrack, unless folks know something else about intermediate versions (e.g. laserdisc and DVD DTS).

Can someone upload a sample of the DTS track so i can take a look see please?

Let me get reel 1 zipped and uploaded so you can look at it.