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Virginia Tech shooting — Page 7

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Originally posted by: ferris209
That was what I thought, but the self defense was considered mute by the judge and prosecuting attorney because they explained that the level of force far exceeded what was necessary. The attorney basically stated, "Black eye and bloody lip for a simple thumped ear. This amount of force used by said 14 year old was excessive and unnecessary in response to minor teasing which could have simply been reported to a teacher at a later time and did not require an immediate reaction by the Defendant."


HA! What a load of bull. That's exactly what I mean. So instead of hitting him, he'd go to a teacher and the teacher would be like "Oh, stop being such a baby, all he did was thump you on the ear". And if he reports every incident, he's labelled a baby and a taddle tail. No way! Whip that shit in the bud! It always requires an immediate reaction. Otherwise, it gets even worse after you tell the teacher, usually because the bully finds out about it and wants to make sure you don't tell again. If anyone's going to escalate it, it should be the one being bullied.

F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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This must be doubly painful for them; not only did they LOSE their son, but they found out he was a psychopath mass murderer. I simply can't imagine what they're going through.

Worse, you know a bunch of inconsiderate morons are probably going to send them threatening emails or bricks through their windows spewing venom at the parents for the actions of their son.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
This must be doubly painful for them; not only did they LOSE their son, but they found out he was a psychopath mass murderer. I simply can't imagine what they're going through.

Worse, you know a bunch of inconsiderate morons are probably going to send them threatening emails or bricks through their windows spewing venom at the parents for the actions of their son.


I bet they are getting hounded by the media too.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: sean wookie
They are in protective custody. I heard.


Too many people always try to immediately blame the parents for whatever reason. I will admit I do believe that parents can be a contributing factor whether large or small, I'd never say they would be the principle cause unless if the situation called for that, i.e. parents forcing or encouraging son to lie, steal, cheat, murder. For example the parents of Eric Harris and Dylan Kebold (Columbine killers) are not to blame, but they could have been more attentive to the plight of those soon to be killers. I mean, a simple and quick search of Eric Harris' room by his Dad or Mom while he was in school would have turned up a couple of the guns and most of the bombs. But still I don't blame the parents, just wished they had been more attentive. Plus, you have to talk to your kids and learn their moods and get to know their friends. Klebolds parents surely could have seen the signs that Harris' influence was bad on their son if they would have looked, I just don't think they did. Still I don't blame them for what happened, I'm sure they just trusted their children too much, usually the case with kids who go the wrong path.
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Originally posted by: ferris209
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: ferris209
After being convicted of assault and spending a couple months in a juvenile detention center, the 14 year was made to do 1000 community service hours and attend TEAM school for the remainder of his school career. So in the end, it seems that bullying is encouraged and standing up for yourself is not, bad signal to send.


Months in a juvenile detention center for a black eye and a bloody lip? Also, the fact that it was self defense didn't figure into anything?


That was what I thought, but the self defense was considered mute by the judge and prosecuting attorney because they explained that the level of force far exceeded what was necessary. The attorney basically stated, "Black eye and bloody lip for a simple thumped ear. This amount of force used by said 14 year old was excessive and unnecessary in response to minor teasing which could have simply been reported to a teacher at a later time and did not require an immediate reaction by the Defendant."


People are so nonsensical. And what an hypocritical judge. They claim that the kid's response was supposedly too excessive, and then they, adults, turn right around, in the same breath, and sentence him to endure months in a juvenile prison, to drudge through 1000 hours of community service, and to spend the rest of his years of grade schooling in a crappy troublemaker school?!

Ears are sensitive and a thumped ear isn't minor to me. I'm fairly sure that if we were to tally the total harassment that 14-year-old had to endure from that bully, the bloody lip and black eye were called for. I'd actually commend the kid for sticking up for himself. All these damn laws and penalties for crimes that aren't even real crimes bug me. Thieves and murderers roam the streets but our justice system wastes time and money persecuting a kid like this. Even assuming the kid went too far and let his anger have too much control, that's what kids do. At most, suspend him from school or send him to the special school, but the rest of that was ridiculous.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: sean wookie
Jack Thompson responds to negative critiscm


Did Cho even play any video games? I haven't seen the whole video he released, but I'm pretty sure he didn't mention games. I guess this is just Jack Thompson pointing his finger at what he considers evil.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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I wrote this originally for a thread at FE.com, but I figure I'll post it here too to add to the discussion:

I hate seeing things like this happen. I'm really sickened this past week by the media, who in their traditional style, are once again focusing everyone's attention on all the wrong issues in this case. The portrait they've painted of Seung-Hui Cho is that of a deranged, apathetic monster.

They focus on the fact that he's an immigrant.

They focus on the fact that he was "weird", he didn't act the same way that all the other "normal" (White) kids.

They focus on the gun-control issue.

They focus on violent video games.

They hypothesize that he was on drugs at the time of the shooting.

They call him a crazed psycho.

I'm still waiting for them to blame Marilyn Manson music.

But none of them have tuned in to the real reason behind this seemingly senseless act of violence.

They don't want to talk about the fact that all the "normal" kids had made his life a Living Hell day in and day out all throughout his childhood and young adult life.

They only mention in passing how in elementary school his teacher made him read in front of the class and as he began struggling through the words of a language that was foreign to him at the time, the other kids busted out laughing and mercilessly mocked him, saying "Go back to China!" Nevermind the fact that he was Korean.

They mention his "crazed, incoherent monologue" heard in his videos and written in his letters, but they gain no insight into his reasons for the attacks. They don't want to listen to his stories about how the "rich kids", with their cars and and new clothes and gold chains, still felt the need to boost their own ego by beating up, tormenting, spitting on a defenseless Asian kid who just wanted to be left alone.

They don't want to talk about the teachers who gave him F's on his violent writings and poetry because creative writing was "not an appropriate outlet" for feelings that dark, instead of encouraging an atmosphere where negative feelings could be vented, or recognizing a call for help when they saw one.

Not allowed to express the rage boiling inside him and with no one around to validate it, what was he to do but swallow it?

So, yeah, I can see why he never talked to anyone, why his roommates described him as a silent, unfriendly loner, having no interest in anyone. If everyone laughed every time you tried to speak, you'd be silent too. And you'd harbor a rage...and over time, gone unexpressed, it would build within you...with every sleight and snub and joke at your expense, not to mention the physical harms inflicted on you...it would quickly harden your heart...and I guess I can sympathize with that in some way.

That's not the way anyone would want their life to turn out. No one wants to be treated that way. Unable to accept or escape from the reality the "normal" kids had created for him, he created his own reality...he ignored them. He refused to acknowledge they existed. For years.

And finally, when that didn't work...and they continued to snicker at him when he didn't answer their questions or look at them in the eye, he adopted a persona which would inspire fear in others and show them once and for all that he was powerful after all and that he could and would enact that power over his enemies. He planned it, and then he carried out his bitter revenge.

Now, let me be clear, the fact that I pity this person does not mean I condone what he did. What he did was surely not the answer to his problems. But I'm saddened by the fact that no one cares to look at this person as a Human Being. They just want to write him off as some mindless monster. What he did was horrible, yes. But Cho was still a person like you and me, a person who at one time had hopes and dreams.

There is a poem by W.H. Auden entitled “September 1st, 1939”. In it, he says “I and the public know what all schoolchildren learn. Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.”

The media focuses on Cho’s pathology, but won't even acknowledge the same pathology or sadistic acts of the so-called "normal" (Good) kids and how their actions contributed to this.

And I'm not talking about the 32 innocent people who were shot on the campus that day. I'm talking about the murderers of the first casualty of this incident...Cho's own innocence. Who weeps for the boy who died on some nameless recess field long ago? Who weeps for the man he might’ve become or the life he could’ve lived?

On the larger scale, I'm talking about American society as a whole, the responsibility we all share as members of that society. I'm talking about the kids who cruelly torture countless numbers of the defenseless in schools across the country every day. Modern Frankensteins fashioning demons out of children, who will some day, with enough ill-will slung in their direction, grow into devils.

The problem is, people want to see everything as Good vs Evil. And that's fine for the movies but the real world doesn't work like that. We all have within us the equal potential to create good or evil in our lives and in the lives of others. There's way more gray area there than we like to recognize.

We owe it to our society to honor the victims by analyzing the REAL cause of this tragedy, not some political hot-button topic conjured up to win elections. Only then can we work to make absolutely certain that this kind of shameful and wasteful deed is never repeated.

--ID

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Originally posted by: InfoDroid
I wrote this originally for a thread at FE.com, but I figure I'll post it here too to add to the discussion:

I hate seeing things like this happen. I'm really sickened this past week by the media, who in their traditional style, are once again focusing everyone's attention on all the wrong issues in this case. The portrait they've painted of Seung-Hui Cho is that of a deranged, apathetic monster.

They focus on the fact that he's an immigrant.

They focus on the fact that he was "weird", he didn't act the same way that all the other "normal" (White) kids.

They focus on the gun-control issue.

They focus on violent video games.

They hypothesize that he was on drugs at the time of the shooting.

They call him a crazed psycho.

I'm still waiting for them to blame Marilyn Manson music.

But none of them have tuned in to the real reason behind this seemingly senseless act of violence.

They don't want to talk about the fact that all the "normal" kids had made his life a Living Hell day in and day out all throughout his childhood and young adult life.

They only mention in passing how in elementary school his teacher made him read in front of the class and as he began struggling through the words of a language that was foreign to him at the time, the other kids busted out laughing and mercilessly mocked him, saying "Go back to China!" Nevermind the fact that he was Korean.

They mention his "crazed, incoherent monologue" heard in his videos and written in his letters, but they gain no insight into his reasons for the attacks. They don't want to listen to his stories about how the "rich kids", with their cars and and new clothes and gold chains, still felt the need to boost their own ego by beating up, tormenting, spitting on a defenseless Asian kid who just wanted to be left alone.

They don't want to talk about the teachers who gave him F's on his violent writings and poetry because creative writing was "not an appropriate outlet" for feelings that dark, instead of encouraging an atmosphere where negative feelings could be vented, or recognizing a call for help when they saw one.

Not allowed to express the rage boiling inside him and with no one around to validate it, what was he to do but swallow it?

So, yeah, I can see why he never talked to anyone, why his roommates described him as a silent, unfriendly loner, having no interest in anyone. If everyone laughed every time you tried to speak, you'd be silent too. And you'd harbor a rage...and over time, gone unexpressed, it would build within you...with every sleight and snub and joke at your expense, not to mention the physical harms inflicted on you...it would quickly harden your heart...and I guess I can sympathize with that in some way.

That's not the way anyone would want their life to turn out. No one wants to be treated that way. Unable to accept or escape from the reality the "normal" kids had created for him, he created his own reality...he ignored them. He refused to acknowledge they existed. For years.

And finally, when that didn't work...and they continued to snicker at him when he didn't answer their questions or look at them in the eye, he adopted a persona which would inspire fear in others and show them once and for all that he was powerful after all and that he could and would enact that power over his enemies. He planned it, and then he carried out his bitter revenge.

Now, let me be clear, the fact that I pity this person does not mean I condone what he did. What he did was surely not the answer to his problems. But I'm saddened by the fact that no one cares to look at this person as a Human Being. They just want to write him off as some mindless monster. What he did was horrible, yes. But Cho was still a person like you and me, a person who at one time had hopes and dreams.

There is a poem by W.H. Auden entitled “September 1st, 1939”. In it, he says “I and the public know what all schoolchildren learn. Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.”

The media focuses on Cho’s pathology, but won't even acknowledge the same pathology or sadistic acts of the so-called "normal" (Good) kids and how their actions contributed to this.

And I'm not talking about the 32 innocent people who were shot on the campus that day. I'm talking about the murderers of the first casualty of this incident...Cho's own innocence. Who weeps for the boy who died on some nameless recess field long ago? Who weeps for the man he might’ve become or the life he could’ve lived?

On the larger scale, I'm talking about American society as a whole, the responsibility we all share as members of that society. I'm talking about the kids who cruelly torture countless numbers of the defenseless in schools across the country every day. Modern Frankensteins fashioning demons out of children, who will some day, with enough ill-will slung in their direction, grow into devils.

The problem is, people want to see everything as Good vs Evil. And that's fine for the movies but the real world doesn't work like that. We all have within us the equal potential to create good or evil in our lives and in the lives of others. There's way more gray area there than we like to recognize.

We owe it to our society to honor the victims by analyzing the REAL cause of this tragedy, not some political hot-button topic conjured up to win elections. Only then can we work to make absolutely certain that this kind of shameful and wasteful deed is never repeated.

--ID


Millions of kids are picked on and made fun of, but they don't go on shooting sprees. I understand that bullying can screw over a kid's mind and I'm not excusing it. Teachers and school administrators should have put a stop to it; kids who'd shout at him to go back to China need some good old fashioned physical discipline.

But you can't say the bullying and the bitter felings it caused are the only causal factor in Cho's rampage. He was referenced to counseling multiple times and blew it off. He didn't want to be helped.

And I can't really have any sympathy for the guy he became--for the person he was once, perhaps, but not the guy who chained the doors of the building before he started killing people. That's not something you can empathise with. And if his life was really such hell, he could have pulled the trigger on himself alone and saved the rest of the world a lot of pain.

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Originally posted by: InfoDroid
I wrote this originally for a thread at FE.com, but I figure I'll post it here too to add to the discussion:

I hate seeing things like this happen. I'm really sickened this past week by the media, who in their traditional style, are once again focusing everyone's attention on all the wrong issues in this case. The portrait they've painted of Seung-Hui Cho is that of a deranged, apathetic monster.

They focus on the fact that he's an immigrant.

They focus on the fact that he was "weird", he didn't act the same way that all the other "normal" (White) kids.

They focus on the gun-control issue.

They focus on violent video games.

They hypothesize that he was on drugs at the time of the shooting.

They call him a crazed psycho.

I'm still waiting for them to blame Marilyn Manson music.

But none of them have tuned in to the real reason behind this seemingly senseless act of violence.

They don't want to talk about the fact that all the "normal" kids had made his life a Living Hell day in and day out all throughout his childhood and young adult life.

They only mention in passing how in elementary school his teacher made him read in front of the class and as he began struggling through the words of a language that was foreign to him at the time, the other kids busted out laughing and mercilessly mocked him, saying "Go back to China!" Nevermind the fact that he was Korean.

They mention his "crazed, incoherent monologue" heard in his videos and written in his letters, but they gain no insight into his reasons for the attacks. They don't want to listen to his stories about how the "rich kids", with their cars and and new clothes and gold chains, still felt the need to boost their own ego by beating up, tormenting, spitting on a defenseless Asian kid who just wanted to be left alone.

They don't want to talk about the teachers who gave him F's on his violent writings and poetry because creative writing was "not an appropriate outlet" for feelings that dark, instead of encouraging an atmosphere where negative feelings could be vented, or recognizing a call for help when they saw one.

Not allowed to express the rage boiling inside him and with no one around to validate it, what was he to do but swallow it?

So, yeah, I can see why he never talked to anyone, why his roommates described him as a silent, unfriendly loner, having no interest in anyone. If everyone laughed every time you tried to speak, you'd be silent too. And you'd harbor a rage...and over time, gone unexpressed, it would build within you...with every sleight and snub and joke at your expense, not to mention the physical harms inflicted on you...it would quickly harden your heart...and I guess I can sympathize with that in some way.

That's not the way anyone would want their life to turn out. No one wants to be treated that way. Unable to accept or escape from the reality the "normal" kids had created for him, he created his own reality...he ignored them. He refused to acknowledge they existed. For years.

And finally, when that didn't work...and they continued to snicker at him when he didn't answer their questions or look at them in the eye, he adopted a persona which would inspire fear in others and show them once and for all that he was powerful after all and that he could and would enact that power over his enemies. He planned it, and then he carried out his bitter revenge.

Now, let me be clear, the fact that I pity this person does not mean I condone what he did. What he did was surely not the answer to his problems. But I'm saddened by the fact that no one cares to look at this person as a Human Being. They just want to write him off as some mindless monster. What he did was horrible, yes. But Cho was still a person like you and me, a person who at one time had hopes and dreams.

There is a poem by W.H. Auden entitled “September 1st, 1939”. In it, he says “I and the public know what all schoolchildren learn. Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.”

The media focuses on Cho’s pathology, but won't even acknowledge the same pathology or sadistic acts of the so-called "normal" (Good) kids and how their actions contributed to this.

And I'm not talking about the 32 innocent people who were shot on the campus that day. I'm talking about the murderers of the first casualty of this incident...Cho's own innocence. Who weeps for the boy who died on some nameless recess field long ago? Who weeps for the man he might’ve become or the life he could’ve lived?

On the larger scale, I'm talking about American society as a whole, the responsibility we all share as members of that society. I'm talking about the kids who cruelly torture countless numbers of the defenseless in schools across the country every day. Modern Frankensteins fashioning demons out of children, who will some day, with enough ill-will slung in their direction, grow into devils.

The problem is, people want to see everything as Good vs Evil. And that's fine for the movies but the real world doesn't work like that. We all have within us the equal potential to create good or evil in our lives and in the lives of others. There's way more gray area there than we like to recognize.

We owe it to our society to honor the victims by analyzing the REAL cause of this tragedy, not some political hot-button topic conjured up to win elections. Only then can we work to make absolutely certain that this kind of shameful and wasteful deed is never repeated.

--ID


In addition to what Darth Chaltab said (I agree with it), this is not an "American" thing. Or are we saying that school children are only made fun of in America? I don't by that. Maybe there's stricter discipline across the pond, but I find it hard to believe that bullying doesn't still happen.

The only thing Cho didn't do, that millions of "nerds", "dorks", and "geeks" do, is that he didn't find a group that he fit in with. Maybe he didn't fit in with anyone. Maybe the kids in elemantary school and to a lesser extent high school were cruel by making fun of him. Most of us grow up and go beyond that once we reach college and start focusing on the future. I find it hard to believe that anyone at Virginia Tech did anything to bully him. I can believe it happened in the past, but so what? I personally feel no pity for him. Perhaps if he had really reached out and tried to get help instead of continually closing himself off, maybe it wouldn't have happened. We'll never know now.

I have no pity for anyone that does something like this because they were "bullied" 10 years ago. There are professional counselors to help people deal with this kind of thing and it's usually covered by insurance. If you really want to get better, the help is there. If, however, you decide to take out some lives before taking your own, then don't expect anything but questions to be left when you're done. It certainly won't help the situation for future children that have to go through the same thing.

You're right about one thing InfoDroid, we should be looking at the problem of bullying. But instead of giving it lip service, which is what every politician and school administration official is doing right now, we need to take a serious look at it. Zero tolerance doesn't work. Things need to be handled on a case by case basis and records of history need to be kept on bully's. We (school admins) shouldn't ostracize children when they report bullying (like they did when I was in school). It should be taken seriously and investigated. The bully's should be punished. Isolate them into separate classes that have strict rules. Suspending them won't do any good, since their parents are likely not giving them any discipline at home. If a kid fights back against the bully, don't just suspend the kid (if even at all), suspend the bully as well, but with isolation at school. Supervised lunch at a different time from everyone else. No talking or the suspension is extended. I guarantee you that if the students who are bullied are allowed to fight back without having to fear suspension or expulsion, things will change. As it stands right now though, any type of reaction is met with even more severe punishment and black marks on the kids record.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Evil is evil and crazy is crazy. Everything else just colored or compounded those issues.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Evil is evil and crazy is crazy. Everything else just colored or compounded those issues.


If you mean that in the way that I think you do, then I can't agree at all. I think the issue lies between ADM's view and the view of Chaltab and lordjedi. I don't think you could say the kid was born evil. He could have been born with a mental disorder that contributed to handeling this differently than the average Joe would have, perhaps. But I could never agree that he was evil because he was evil. Even Hitler was human. I feel sorry for Cho, what isn't to feel sorry about? It is sad that he felt justified to do something like he did, that is plenty to pity right there.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Putting political concepts in the context of Good vs Evil, as conservatives always do, strips away all notions of humanity from the so-called "evil" party. By doing this, it's easy to rally the ignorant, naive and narrow-minded to any cause.

Unfortunately, (or perhaps fortunately) the real world itself, in the natural sense, doesn't work like that.

--ID

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Uhh, what are you guys talking about? Are you somehow denying the existence of evil in this world? In your minds, everybody is basically good and this massacre was just another unexplainable day in the life of us hapless human beings? Strange natural influences in the environment just happened to coincide perfectly and influence a wonderful young man to become a psychopath? Cho has no blame to share here? Also, he had no mental issues skewing his decision making process?

Don't make me laugh. All people obviously have evil tendencies and, out of giving Cho the benefit of the doubt, I'd like to at least hope he had mental damage affecting him as well. Get out of your fairy princess lands and be honest with yourselves. I had a tough time in adolescence and for a while there I barely even had one friend. I know what it's like to be rejected and I know what its like to regard other people as inferior to myself in extreme ways. I have no greater sympathy for Cho's behavior than I have for any violent thoughts I may have entertained about people who mistreated me.

There are so many people today who like to blame everything else in this world but our own personal choices. Bah.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Of course evil exists. There is no denying that. But you can't say someone is born evil. I, personally, wouldn't even call Cho evil, what he did was an evil act. But was he actually evil? He had a family who loved him, even if he was a difficult child. His family is mourning the death of someone they loved, while at the same time dealing with the shame of his final deed. You cannot blame society, video games, bullies, guns, movies, the parents, or anything of the such for his willingness to snuff out so many lives. No doubt under different circumstances he wouldn't have commited this horrible crime, but another person under the same circumstances, or even worse than his own, would not have done the same thing. It takes a lot to kill somebody. It takes a lot more to kill 32 somebodies. There was something about him that wasn't right. Does that make him the devil incarnate? I find him to be more tragic than purely evil.

And to show I am not in "fairy princess land", here is a quote from my very first comment in this thread:

"Can't we just take responsibility for our own actions? Maybe the guy went bezerk not because of id software, but because there was something terribly wrong. Though I know I am wrong. If the experts says Doom made him do it, then Doom it was."

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: C3PX
"Can't we just take responsibility for our own actions? Maybe the guy went bezerk not because of id software, but because there was something terribly wrong. Though I know I am wrong. If the experts says Doom made him do it, then Doom it was."


Who the hell are these people to call themselves experts?
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I happen to agree with InfoDroid. It becomes much easier to handle things when you can just say, "Well, that person was evil." It desensitizes us against the side we don't agree with and allows us to hate that side like we're supposed to. Rather than attempt to find out what caused someone to "go bad" (aside from violent video games, obviously), we can just hate the evil killer and move on. I'm not even saying he wasn't evil. I don't know. I didn't know him. I never met him. I never interacted with him. Maybe he always had a sadistic streak and always desired to kill people, even before he was bullied or ostracized, and it simply grew and grew as time went on. But more than likely it seems that's not the case. I liked the parallel that C3PX made to Hitler. Even the people we find the most condemnable have thoughts and emotions like us. But, like I said before, we like to strip undesirables of those qualities to make it easier to rally against them. I admit it's very confusing to me to see a picture of Hitler, in his military outfit, smiling warmly while feeding a deer and then see pictures of Holocaust victims. It's simply easier and makes more sense to believe that someone who would do something so horrible as to murder other human beings could possibly have any feelings of warmth, fear, or love. But, like it or not, we're all human, not two-dimensional programmed machines. Once again, I have to reiterate that, while I say this, it doesn't make me feel anything but anger to think of the lives that were lost and leave me wondering how anybody could do something so horrible as to gun down helpless human beings. And there certainly has to be something hardened and cold-blooded about you to be able to lock people in a room and take shots at them like that. But everybody always has a perspective, as warped and confusing to us as it might seem.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I agree, C3PX. And Tiptup, if you re-read our posts, you'll see that you misunderstood what we're trying to say.

Evil deeds are committed by people every day, but I don't believe Human Beings are capable of being wholly or genuinely evil, regardless of how their obituary is written.

And to tie it into Star Wars...the whole lesson of the saga is to suggest that good can be found in even the most seemingly evil person. That suggestion that someone as evil as Darth Vader could be redeemed and that underneath it all he was a father who cared about and loved his children speaks to the Humanity...that kernel of absolute, indestructible Good...inherent in all of us. And if there wasn't some measure of collective truth to that lesson, then we would've walked out of the theater in 1983 laughing at the mere audacity of it.

--ID

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People are inherently evil. They need someone or something to keep them inline, otherwise, they'll do whatever they want. Everyone here has proof of this. Simply pickup a set of keys. You're not looking at the proof that all people are inherently evil. If we were inherently good, no one would need keys for anything, because no one would have the desire to take what isn't there's. But since the opposite is true, we lock our doors. Our houses, cars, all our valuables. We lock everything up so people won't steal it. Yes, a determined individual will still find a way to take it, but the one's who are mostly honest will leave it alone. If it wasn't locked though, there'd be nothing stopping them, so they'd take it.

My point is that while Cho probably had some help and discipline when he was younger, he was obviously missing some self discipline while he was at college. There's really no one else to blame here except Cho. The only problem is, he took himself out with the rest of them, so there's nothing that can be done except to mourn with all those involved.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't believe I'm better than Cho. Under the right circumstances I know I could have ended up just like him. That's what I mean when I say you guys aren't facing reality. Every human on this earth has their limits and all I'm saying is that we should condemn him for evil any choices he made as a result. Sympathizing with his excuses will only play into his final wish and his supposed reasons for doing what he did. He thought that what he was doing was justified in his worthless view of the world and he made that video to glorify those worthless thoughts.

I also strongly disagree that Cho wasn't born evil. I firmly believe that everyone is born with evil tendencies. There's no other way to explain how the world is the way it is as far as I can see. If such a nature were not innate within us at birth to some degree, the world would generally be a much better place in my mind. Though was he corrupt enough to murder thirty-two people on the day he was born? No, nobody is born in a state like that, not even Hitler. That's obvious nonsense. However, somewhere along the way I believe that Cho chose to be the person he became. While his environment influenced him to become murderer, without the possibility of evil desires in his heart those influences could not have worked. Choice and intent is the key.

Seriously, what was he trying to do? What was he ultimately accomplishing in his own mind? You want me to identify with his problems?

This young man was truly pathetic. He was a coward worthy of ridicule. Seriously, the best he could do in life is murder a room full of people and then commit suicide? I actually have more respect for a murderous dictator like Hitler if that's the case. At least Hitler lived it up and ran an entire country before killing himself. His body count was a lot more impressive as well. I guess Cho just didn't have the ambition or the brains to accomplish anything on that level though.

Was Cho a human being like you and me? Yes, obviously. Do I understand him and can I relate to his desires? Again, obviously, but it is by that very measure, the one he actually chose for himself, that I now say he was a pathetic loser. The more I try to follow his reasoning the more I hate his guts for being an absolute failure in realizing his own goals and mindset. If life is ultimately about the things he claimed to value, then his attempt to act in accordance with those principles fell laughably short. In other words, he should be mocked by his own standards.

I don't like a lot of the viewpoints we have today in our modern world. Should all violence be equally evil in our minds? Is there no such thing as justice?

If you want to truly have sympathy for Cho and mourn the good guy he could have been, then I implore you to condemn him as an evil person. Don't disrespect the God-given nobility he was born with by apologizing and making excuses for what he did. He's a human being and all human beings have the power to make choices. It is our free decisions that define who we are more than anything else! Please don't throw that truth away for our sickly, modern psychology. I'd rather be a cave man and understand what it truly means to be a man than listen to this sophisticated foolishness.

Our freedom is a frightening thing in more ways than one. It is on that basis that I feel sad for Cho and sad for the many people who died by his hand. It is also on that basis that I shudder and fear what any of us could become in the right circumstances. Cho was a twisted human being precisely because he was twisted by himself in the end. While the actions of others contribute to that fact, nobody else can ultimately be blamed for the blame that is ultimately his own. To give any degree of weight to his depressed thoughts or hopeless mindset will only allow the evil nature of this tragedy to win and multiply if you ask me. It's a sick thing and should be responded to properly.


All of that said though, I'd once again like to state that I hope Cho was mentally damaged to a degree, and to the extent that such a state contributed to his actions I cannot blame him in a moral sense. At best we can hope that people like that will be met with the love and care needed to overcome their difficulties. I totally agree with InfoDroid that people should have done more. People could have been his friend and helped him. I also agree that many people mistreated Cho during his life but at the same time I believe that they should be held accountable for their actions as well.


Otherwise, to go back to pure philosophy, I don't believe that people possess any indestructible bits of goodness. If there is anything about people that is true, we are limited in every way and cannot rely upon ourselves ultimately. Life is messy and I believe that everything about us can be corrupted. In every way we must to rely on things outside of ourselves in order to get through life. Does that then mean we can ever become totally corrupt or totally evil? No, we always have goodness that can't ever be totally compromised. But, compromise is compromise and I firmly believe some people can reach a stage where they're beyond help.

Also, I agree that the original Star Wars trilogy had a great ending with the repentance and salvation of Vader. I really liked that ending before George Lucas destroyed it. According to his own words concerning the prequels and the latest editions, Vader dies and the old (supposedly good) Anakin is resurrected. Pretty pathetic and empty now. :\

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I believe the existence of the truly evil and from birth. I have looked into the eyes of evil. A man who shot and killed a 14 year old boy, then proceeded to rape and murder his 13 year old sister. He killed her, cut off her hands and head, and then proceeded to have sex with her throat. He was caught, tried, convicted, and finally put to death. However, nobody knows where that girls head and hands are to this day, he would not tell even has be laid strapped to that table. I looked at this guy more than a few times in the eyes, he had no soul, regret, or remorse and he would have done it again if given the chance. All the cops in the city where he lived new he would kill somebody someday and he was suspect number one when it happened. He was caught several times riding around with dead cats, dogs, other animals in his car. He was also caught having sex with a dead cows decapitated neck. They said that he grow up to be a murderer when he was 8 years old. So again, I believe true evil exists.