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Violence VS. Non-Violence ~~~ Debate — Page 6

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Originally posted by: Jagdlieter
Jesus did NOT believe in justice; to him everyone deserved to be forgiven for EVERYTHING no matter what. When they crucified him, he didn't fight in self-defense because he felt that violence couldn't be justified even by that. So, my point is follows....


Jesus didn't fight back because he was giving his life as a sacrifice for the sins of man, not because he was a pacifist. Remember the Bible also says that he made a whip and drove greedy money changers out of the Temple Mound.


I don't belive in god but jesus sounds like an awsome guy.


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Originally posted by: Jagdlieter
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab

*whisper* Hint, hint, Jag... It's not His death we celebrate on Easter, dude. You're three days too early!


Wtf are you talking about? I don't understand what you're saying, I'm not referring to Easter at all. I'm referring to the religion of Christianity!


Uhh, Easter is Christian. That is the origin of "the religion of Christianity". We don't celebrate the death of Jesus. We celebrate His resurrection. That's the big tenet.
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My point was that his main 'life's work' eventually concluded with him dying for our sins. And maybe I'm wrong (because I'm no expert), but I think a major reason he is so universally loved and worshipped is because of this sacrafice.

It makes sense to celebrate his 'life' rather than why he died for us though..... so I understand the 'tenet'.


EDIT: Does anyone else see this Ad at the bottom? LOL good timing.

I think that was also covered in the book, Lamb.
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You don't have to FIGHT in order to fight for what is good and decent.


I think I became just a little bit dumber for having read that sentence.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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Yeah I could have worded it differently. It has potential to be a good quote with some work though. Any ideas?

Hint: If you didn't get the meaning...You don't have to fight in wars or riots to "fight for what's right".
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Originally posted by: Jagdlieter
My point was that his main 'life's work' eventually concluded with him dying for our sins. And maybe I'm wrong (because I'm no expert), but I think a major reason he is so universally loved and worshipped is because of this sacrafice.

It makes sense to celebrate his 'life' rather than why he died for us though..... so I understand the 'tenet'.


EDIT: Does anyone else see this Ad at the bottom? LOL good timing.

I think that was also covered in the book, Lamb.


Good book, Lamb. Yes, we listen to his teachings. I'm not arguing that. But Chaltab was still right.
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It has been factually proven that Jesus existed. Whether he performed miracles and all that other good stuff is a matter of faith (which I happen to have).

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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I don't doubt that He existed. And you're absolutely right. Whether or not he performed those miracles is a matter of personal faith.

Yes, Jesus was a pacifist. But not all of us are as pure as he.
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Actually, according to Chaltab Jesus WASN'T a pacifist; which surprised me.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: sybeman
But not all of us are as pure as he.


Probably none of us.
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That is interesting that Jesus has been brought up to the debate. Didn't he used to say something like "offer the other face" or something? And some insane things about love? One of my favorite scenes in movies is a scene on "Full Metal Jacket" in which the drill seargeant is talking about God and Jesus on Christmas. So much hypocrisy, the scene is hilarious, in a "Dr Strangelove" kind of way...

"Today... is Christmas! There will be a magic show at zero-nine-thirty! Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free world will conquer Communism with the aid of God and a few marines! God has a hard-on for marines because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! Do you ladies understand?"
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: Jagdlieter
Actually, according to Chaltab Jesus WASN'T a pacifist; which surprised me.


Whip. Moneychangers. Temple. Turning over tables. Sure, he didn't kill anyone, and he certainly preached kindness and forgiveness instead of petty personal vengeance. But turning the other cheek from a slap doesn't mean welcoming someone with a hunting knife to slit your throat.

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So Jesus was a pacifist, but he wasn't afraid to raise his voice at times if it was necessary.
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I saw a trailer for a new tonight, it is about flight 93. That is the fourth plane that was taken over by terrorists on 911. That plane was headed most probably for the White House. The only reason the White House stands today and 100's more didn't die on 911 is because the people on that plane fought back. Were they wrong?

As for Jesus, wasn't he the son of the same God that helped David fight and kill Goliath? I believe their are many other instances in the Bible of that God lending his support for Army or another in wars.

Originally posted by: Jagdlieter

You don't have to FIGHT in order to fight for what is good and decent.


But what if FIGHTING for what is good and decent was the only way to make sure what is good and decent doesn't cease to exist?
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On another note....

Accounts of the families that lost loved ones in 9/11

This is why I don't think killing is ever justified. Look at all the pain and suffering that one person's death can cause. Now think about the thousands that die in war. That's too much suffering.

Now, if a man has no family; no one who will miss him if he is gone (and the same goes for me, because I wouldn't want to cause MY family grief either), then if he wants to risk his life fighting me to the death--bring it on. But otherwise I couldn't morally kill someone for any reason.

PS. And let's leave self-defense and rage out of this discussion, we've learned that primal instincts can easily override moral beliefs.
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Originally posted by: Warbler


But what if FIGHTING for what is good and decent was the only way to make sure what is good and decent doesn't cease to exist?


It definitely could be, I used the words 'doesn't HAVE to' so I wouldn't be debating this point though. There are times when it's necessary, and times when it's not.
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Originally posted by: Jagdlieter


PS. And let's leave self-defense and rage out of this discussion, we've learned that primal instincts can easily override moral beliefs.


Woah, woah! You can't impose restrictions on a debate this late in the game. Your question, originally, was not "Is violence moral?" It was "Is violence ever
justified?"

You have no argument, Jag! If a man had no family, then you wouldn't be morally opposed to killing him? Bullcrap! Either you're opposed to killing or you're not. I'm not going to ask a soldier, "Hey, do you have a family? No? Good." BANG. Fuck that.

I'm done with this discussion. Jag, you can't have it both ways. Sorry, bud.
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Sybeman,
Whoa yourself! You missunderstood! My ENTIRE reason for saying that killing is never justifiable is because of my profound dislike of it, and my dislike of it is solely caused by the suffering and pain it causes others.

I think a short story will help me describe my overall message.


Imagine that your brother, sister, son, daughter, or maybe even father has gone to war. Let's use Father as the example.........
-----
---
Your father, John, is a simple working man; let's say a softwar debugger. Day in and day out he fixes software problems to feed and support his family. As soon as he hears about the War On Terror he begins to think to himself; "All my life I've wanted something to fight for, something to drive me." This seems like exactly the "something" he always wanted. Reluctantly, you mother gives him the OK on his idea because she knows how important this is to him. You on the other hand are very worried about him; your father has been a hero to you for a long time and you don't like the possibility of losing him forever.

***Part 2

It is an honorable mission, and you and your family are very proud of him. He left training camp after a short two weeks of basic weapons and tactics training and is now off to Iraq to fight the good fight. While in Iraq, John forms a bond with his squad like no other. They all feel that they have known each other for years, but have only been introduced in the previous week. One day, he and his squad finally see action erupt. It is extremely intense; explosions are booming from many directions, and gunfire is ringing throughout the streets of a small town. John gets orders to lead a small group of four ahead to scout for an ambush or any insurgents. He and his four companions trot down one street, turn left, and trot down another. Right before he is about to make a right at the next street, he hears a strange sound; a sound he recognizes from a few movies he's seen recently. It almost sounds like.....
"GET DOWN!!!", bellows a private among the five.

***Part 3

Before John can react, an explosion directly above where he and his team are standing knocks all of them off their feet. Rubble and cement falls onto their helmets, knocking all of them of them unconscious. What seems to be seconds later, John wakes up with a jolt. He hears men yelling in the near distance, but cannot make out what they are saying. Extreme disorientation floods his body and mind and it is hard to discern the yelling from the overwhelming ringing from inside his head. The rat-i-tat-tat begins and he immediately knows who's yelling. He realizes that he has been in an ambush, and he surveys the situation. "Four unconscious, four injured",make that five, he thinks to himself. I can't forget myself. John realizes he is in a bad situation; there are four friendlies hurt, and a small group of insurgents on their way. His choices: call for a medic and backup and try to secure the position until they arrive, this is unlikely to succed; or call for a medic and and backup, try to make it to safety, and hope the medic gets to the friendlies before the insurgents do. Easy decision, he says to himself, and smiles at his situation.

***Part 4

John looks around for anything that could help him. The building next to him has a giant hole where an upstairs wall should be. Perfect. He walks over to the door and moves to knock on it. He stops, smiles once again, and just opens the door. It appears to have been abandonded for quite some time, probably from all the constant fighting. John hurries up the stairs, finds a good spot, and kneels down on the edge of the giant hole in the wall. He checks his M4; clean, sturdy, and a scope rests quietly on top. A good gun, he thinks to himself. After only about 45 seconds or a minute, he sees a small group of insurgents carrying AK-47s cautiously jogging towards where his team lays helpless. One of them has another type of weapon though, an RPG launcher swung over his back. John lines up his M4, closes one eye, peers through the scope.....

***Interlude

Meanwhile, at home, your family has been a wreck. Constant news of soldiers coming home in caskets, and others coming home with missing limbs has flooded the news. Luckily, some squads have returned home to safety, but there has been no sign of your father. Your mother seems to have taken up drinking again, if only in small doses. Your little sister seems constantly depressed but won't talk about it. Everything about the war seems to disgust you, because it reminds you of the blunt fact that you may never see your father again. Life is terrible.

***Part 5

Clack, Clack-clack-clack. John fires a few precise rounds, instantly killing two, wounding one in the chest. More yelling erupts from the small group, and the man with the RPG is reloading. His heart sinks. What seems like several hundred rounds goes by him as he dives out of the way. There are no options if he fires that RPG. More yelling occurs, but it sounds more distressed than before. A reassuring noise echos through the streets; the sound of an M4 firing multiple times. The sounds of American voices echos along with the M4s.
"John! Are you here!", his captain yells.
"I'm alright, there's 4 friendlies in need of medical attention under some of the rubble!", John responds, "Oh, there's also one hostile that is badly wounded and needs medical attention first!"
"We'll get to him last, if we get to him at all!", sounds the captain, in a way that makes John's stomach turn.

***Part 6

The captain orders John to hold his position and fire upon any and all insurgents that come by, he assigns 3 men to take up similar positions in adjacent buildings. Reluctantly, John gets comfortable and waits for enemies to appear. It happens sooner than he would have wished, but it's much worse than he expected. Ten maybe fifteen insurgents armed with either AK47s or--John's heart sinks again--M4s. Anger wells up inside of him but he knows that if he engages them, he will surely die. His radio chirps with the voice of one of the other watchmen in the adjacent buildings.
"Do you see what they're carrying? We HAVE to do something, John!"
"I know, I see it too.", John replies with a hopeless tone.
"Well?!"
"You and I both know it would be suicide to engage!", replies John with a slightly annoyed tone.
"What if we call in? I'm sure if we explained the situation they'd--"
"Well if we did that of course they would come; but I have a bad feeling about it, don't call in--That's an order.", John says sternly.
There is no response. The insurgents have marched on, and John is glad to see them go.

***Part 7

Minutes pass that seem like hours, and there is no noise except the faint rat-i-tat-tat of AK-47s in the distance. John begins to think that the fighting is done for today. And this thought pleases him very much. All of a sudden, without warning, a rocket soars from the side of John's view and hits one of the adjacent buildings, crumbling it in on itself. His stomach lurches when he realizes that there were two friendlies in that building. Fear and panic take over while he fumbles for his M4. The infamous yelling begins, and John realizes that the original group of ten or fifteen has returned, and they know he's there. He can see them now; the man with the RPG, reloading. John radios his captain about the situation and luckily he is only a block away. Seconds later the loud echoing Crack of a large rifle is heard, and one of the insurgents drops dead. John can see his squad now, and his captain leading them. They all take cover behind garbage cans and various cars. The man with the RPG is reloading now. John take a couple shots into the small group of insurgents and kills one, Clack, clack. The man with the RPG fires and a loud BOOM is what follows. Another anonymous RPG is fired and the same BOOM is what follows it. John's heart seems to jump rope when he hears this.

***Part 8

John creaks his head out to look where the rockets exploded. Horror is the only emotion John feels when he sees his former squad strewn across the pavement; bits and pieces, limbs, but mostly blood. He thinks he can almost see a familiar head lying all alone. John forces back the urge to vomit only with the immediate rage that overcomes him at that very moment. He positions himself so that when they come up the stairs, he'll be waiting. John reloads his M4, sets it from sing-shot to full-auto and places his pistol next to him on the floor. John feels mixed emotions; on one hand, he is full of anger and resolve; on the other hand, he is scared shitless. The yelling gets closer and he hears footsteps coming up the cement stairs. He tightens his grip on his M4, his hands and brow sweating profusely.

***Part 9

The rest happens in a split second.

A head appears with a body and AK-47 pointing right at him--Clack-clack-clack-clack-clack--the insurgent falls backwards. More soldiers come--Clack-clack-clack-clack--another falls. John isn't thinking anymore, he is feeling. He quickly reloads. Another appears, this one gets to him faster--Rat-i-tat-tat--John feels the bullets dig deep into his Kevlar vest--Clack-clack-clack-clack-clack--the soldier falls. This time two appear simultaneously--Clack-clack-clack-clack-clack--Rat-i-tat-tat--Rat-i-tat-tat--He is shot in his left arm and both legs. John is surprised at not being shot in the head, yet. He begins to wish it--Clack-clack-clack-clack-clack--more come and fall to his M4--Click, click--John tosses the gun aside and picks up his sidearm. Pack, Pack-Pack. What seems to be the last soldier falls. There is no noise, but John can't hear anyway; his ears are still ringing.

***Part 10

John is in a surreal state; he has been shot numerous times, and he has shot and killed 17 men in the last 2 hours. At what seems like the most random time, he thinks about his family. His dog, his friends back home rooting for him. Why did he let them down? Why?.....Why?..................................................................................................

John drifts off into a deep sleep. But he does not wake up.

***Part 11 (Finale)

Approximately two weeks later, the doorbell rings. Your mother answers the door. You hear talking, and your mother seems distressed. Shortly after, your mother drags herself into the living room where both you and your sister are watching television. She quietly asks you to turn off the TV, you do so. For the next five minutes she reads a letter that is the saddest and longest letter you have ever heard, even thought it is only one page long. She reads it once more, then bursts into tears on the last sentence. Your husband is a hero. A medal hangs off of a leather strap along the side of the letter. For the next month, the whole family mourns. But even after the funeral, life wasn't the same without your hero.
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Originally posted by: Jagdlieter

This is why I don't think killing is ever justified. Look at all the pain and suffering that one person's death can cause. Now think about the thousands that die in war. That's too much suffering.


This is why we HOPE to avoid war, but PREPARE for the fact that one is possible at any given moment. And I would point out that, in the US, our military is all volunteer. They know that risking your life, and maybe having to give it up is part of the job, whereas the civilans killed on 9/11 were just going to push papers that Tuesday morning.

If we apply your logic to Star Wars, then Luke Skywalker is a mass murderer.

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Jag, you can "profoundly dislike" murder all you want, but you asked if violence can ever be justifiable, and people have said "If it's in self-defence, yes, it is justifiable." You've turned around and said, "Well, I'm not counting self-defence because then primal instincts take over." I don't care what your opinion is. You're entitled to it. But don't put limits on the discussion. If you keep limiting it, we might end up agreeing with you, but only because we can't talk about anything else.

Okay, I skimmed your story. Touching, but a heart-wrenching story isn't going to change my mind. At war, people die. You want justification? The father died because he was killing people, and if whoever shot him hadn't, he might have been killed too. In fact, he probably was killed. Violent people die unnatural deaths.

Can violence and murder be justified? Yes. Can war be justified? Yes. Why am I still discussing this? Why am I letting you goad me with each post?
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"All my life I've wanted something to fight for, something to drive me."

So this guy is fighting not in the name of good, peace, justice, and all that otehr 'justifiable' stuff, but is fighting instead for personal gratification.

War does not make one great.

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Rap is gets people killed. Proof is that guy who just got killed today.
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
"All my life I've wanted something to fight for, something to drive me."

So this guy is fighting not in the name of good, peace, justice, and all that otehr 'justifiable' stuff, but is fighting instead for personal gratification.


He joined the war because it seemed honorable to fight for ones country, not merely to fighting. Many who have joined the war in Iraq have joined for the same reason.
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So, in other words, they joined because they realised that in order to protect their country, they were going to have to fight, and maybe, to kill. Looks like you can't have an omelette without cracking a few eggs.