Vader not Luke's Dad... imagine!

Hippie!

The whole saga would have been better, because the universe wouldn't have ended up so small and the storylines wouldn't be so constricted.

I think family is a big part of the story to me.  The jails are full of people today, and I don't care.  Heck, they can crack corn too, and I still don't care.  They're probably just bad people who deserve to be in there.  All of that dat corn crackin'...  PEOPLE OUT HERE ARE TRYING TO SLEEP!

But if my dad went to jail... even if I knew he was guilty... man I'd work to get him out.  Whatever it was he did... I'm sure he won't do it again.  He's learned his lesson.  So why don't we just commute that sentence and get back to father-and-son campouts.

Besides, if he stays in there too long... he might start cracking corn.

And then I would care.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

The whole saga would have been better, because the universe wouldn't have ended up so small and the storylines wouldn't be so constricted.

I disagree with this too.  And I will use the same arguments that I used on Anchorhead (previous to his becoming a moderator) when he brings up this point.

Luke and Vader were always related.  Whether he is the man that was his father's friend and then betrayed and murdered his father or he actually IS his father, they are still closely related.

The Leia->sister thing, where there was no previous close relationship, is what started to make people think it was a soap opera.

It's like Lando.  It's not a coincidence that Lando was Han's friend and the previous owner of the Falcon.  Han goes to see Lando BECAUSE of that connection.  Yoda and Chewie being homeboys, however... is a different problem.

wow...i dunno...thats the one aspect that really took star wars to another level - from a electrifying, enchanting and engrossing fantasy to an all-time great saga.  not unlike the beatles with beatlemania and then coming out with revolver and rubber soul.

oh, man, I dunno...it would have been really difficult to picture luke still thinking vader had good in him at the start of jedi. 

maybe....maybe the forgiveness angle could have been pulled off at the end of jedi.  But not the benefit of the doubt part.  Unless there was more footage of yoda and ben talking ot luke.

sadly, lucas would not have been able to pull this off.

hmm...maybe this would be the premise of the third trilogy - forgiveness, truth and reconciliation! have it take place say 500 years after ROTJ.  The skywalker family (still need these guys to make star wars) has grown and dissapated in the years since but something (plot device) causes them to come together and come to terms with the revelation that their most famous ancestor was a mass murderer.  luke redeemed him in OT...but there is still the aftermath and fallout.

lemme guess...there is already an EU story like this? :(

Baronlando said:

But it probably could have been cool if handled well

 Some kind of Cool... Hand... Luke?

Sorry folks, I'm here all week!

TheBoost said:

If Luke only forgives him because it's his dad, that seems selfish. But (it seems to me) he forgives Dad-Vader because he senses there is still good in him, regardless that it's his dad.

Mayhap, but then it wouldn't be the human experience, would it?

TheBoost said:

What if Vader hadn't been Luke's dad?

What if ESB had Vader tempt Luke... not because he was his father, but because he was the last young Jedi who might help him. He says, "Yeah I killed your dad, but wouldnt ruling the universe be cool?"

And then in ROTJ... Luke STILL tries to redeem Vader because he senses some good in him, perhaps an ounce of regret that he betrayed and murdered his friend. And the film all plays out more or less the same. Luke strives to get Vader to be good because it's the right thing to do, not just becasue it's his dad, and Vader sacrifices himself to save Luke because it's the right thing to do, not because it's his son.

Not saying it would be an improvement, but think about the emotional weight of forgiving and redeeming your father's murderer, because Luke is just that in tune with goodness and the Force.

Well actually in Labyrinth of evil Anakin was away from Padme for a year and a half, and then ROTS starts immediately after that book, so technically speaking he couldn't be Luke's father because Padme is already pregnant at the beginning of ROTS.

While it's true that Vader being Luke's dad made for an arguably strong storyline, I think that there could have been better possible storylines, that could have led to an even better saga.  I know it's hard to imagine such things because we've had 30 years with the whole thing revolving around Vader being Luke's dad.  But that doesn't mean that a richer, wider universe couldn't have been created without that theme.

In my opinion, Yoda, Jabba, and the Emperor are terrific characters that enriched the movies tremendously.  However, making so many of the main characters related was simplistic, and a better story-teller could have come up with a better theme.  Of course, that's just my opinion.

TheBoost said:

walking_carpet said:

oh, man, I dunno...it would have been really difficult to picture luke still thinking vader had good in him at the start of jedi. 

maybe....maybe the forgiveness angle could have been pulled off at the end of jedi.  But not the benefit of the doubt part.  Unless there was more footage of yoda and ben talking ot luke.

 

 But doesn't Luke still have a lot to forgive even with Dad-Vader? His dad murdered his mentor, tortured all his pals, cut off his hand, and is a really bad guy.

If Luke only forgives him because it's his dad, that seems selfish. But (it seems to me) he forgives Dad-Vader because he senses there is still good in him, regardless that it's his dad.

hmmm...i guess there's 3 parts - closure, forgiveness and then absolving someone.  I first came to the concept of closure - which I assume is simply moving on -  during the horrible columbine shootings and pending execution of timothy mcveigh.  If you guys remember, this was a big theme in the media.

i don't think theres any absolving - not after episode III (which is why i strongly disapprove of hayden ghost).  so back to forgiveness -theres one element im not sure you mentioned - does vader still threaten luke with taking leia away and turning her into the sith?  because thats what set him off and made him take a firm stance.

if thats still in place, i think maybe luke offers closure but still not sure about forgiveness because his twin was under clear danger.   it would take an unbelievable script and direction to pull that off.  Are there any movies like this? probably not, cuz its too inconceivable.  and Star Wars was already considered out of the box narratively speaking.  i think dead man walking had this theme but i dont recall if the dad of the girl forgave sean penn's character.

Dr. Yoda said:

There are so many elements like that that truly would've made Star Wars far more enjoyable... Like a little bit of incest between Leia and Luke, or some rape related things, or really anything that would've made it more like a regular family. I would've gotten more attached to the characters. Star Wars... Erotic! Imagine that!

Am I the only one desperately hoping the above is a joke?

DominicCobb said:

What if the twist was "I didn't kill your father, Obi-Wan did," and that was actually true?

It IS true... from a certain point of view.