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Unpopular Opinion Thread — Page 23

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The Prequel Trilogy showcases George Lucas at the height of his filmmaking talents, and successfully add more depth, pathos, and other improvements to the Original Trilogy. They’re wonderful movies that are unfortunately almost top to bottom misunderstood by illiterate critics, especially the story being told and the style in which the movies are made.

The issues older fans have with the prequels are put to rest by watching and understanding the movies in their intended order, 1-6.

The Special Editions were necessary to link the PT to the OT in narrative, feel, and design, provided needed updates to the VFX, and in fact created more powerful/symmetrical moments than before.

George has every right to alter his own works, as he’s the sole artist. This is not hypocritical in light of his comments on film preservation and protecting artists. And his refusal to restore and re-release the UOT is not malicious by any stretch.

Gary Kurtz’ major contributions to Star Wars involve almost tanking the production of ANH and TESB by going overbudget, and then making a career out of bashing Lucas for media exposure for the remainder of his life. Some contributions. Meanwhile Lucas has never spoken ill of him and even gave him a second chance at being producer. The fact that Kurtz fancied himself a creative kind who kept Lucas on a leash is laughable.

Marcia on the other hand made important contributions to the films, but they have been overexaggerated. She didn’t “save” anything that George wasn’t going to otherwise. She wasn’t the “heart” of Star Wars… this is something she herself has spoken out against. I have no ill will toward Marcia, but the clickbait that’s been written about her these past few years at the expense of George is in bad faith.

George is not a snake or a deceiver, but his offhand comments and soundbites have been overanalyzed and taken out of context by “fans” who have a bone to pick with him, hungry for “gotchas” for some reason. They also seem to have trouble decoding his dry sense of humor.

George brought out the best in his collaborators, not the other way around. Evidence shows that he was the one keeping Kurtz and Kasdan at bay, not the other way around. Kasdan, for example, had such a critical misunderstanding of Star Wars at its core that he believed Luke should go dark and kill the Emperor at the end of ROTJ. Lucas also was able to bait him into believing that another good ending would be Vader getting his cape stuck in a door and Luke subsequently going dark and becoming Vader. The script for TFA is what you get with Kasdan and no Lucas. Poorly aged and derivative.

The tired “yes man” argument made against George is one of the most uninformed lies perpetrated about him, if you’ve read anything on either trilogy, you would know he approached the productions in the same way: work closely with artists and collaborators, and finalize every decision himself. Nothing had changed. Not to mention, the very job of those people WAS to be “yes men”, that’s what a film production is… but George collaborated with them anyway.

George was playing with the ideas of a redeemed villain, a father/son story, and other plot threads that are ambiguous in ANH and properly established in TESB/ROTJ while he was writing the original drafts, but chose not to commit to these ideas, for practical reasons (possibility of ANH tanking) and creative reasons, while still leaving outs for himself such as Obi-Wan’s/Owen’s comments about Luke’s father and Vader’s survival.

Had Lucas not sold, I think his ST would have been revolutionary and would have again improved upon the preceding 6 movies. His ideas on the Whills and the “power vacuum” taking place after ROTJ are fascinating, and it’s a damn shame Disney has tried to pass off their films as a continuation of his story. Just glad most people don’t see them that way.

Lucasfilm fan since '83!

Christian, husband, father

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Marioer said:

The Prequel Trilogy showcases George Lucas at the height of his filmmaking talents, and successfully add more depth, pathos, and other improvements to the Original Trilogy. They’re wonderful movies that are unfortunately almost top to bottom misunderstood by illiterate critics, especially the story being told and the style in which the movies are made.

The issues older fans have with the prequels are put to rest by watching and understanding the movies in their intended order, 1-6.

The Special Editions were necessary to link the PT to the OT in narrative, feel, and design, provided needed updates to the VFX, and in fact created more powerful/symmetrical moments than before.

George has every right to alter his own works, as he’s the sole artist. This is not hypocritical in light of his comments on film preservation and protecting artists. And his refusal to restore and re-release the UOT is not malicious by any stretch.

Gary Kurtz’ major contributions to Star Wars involve almost tanking the production of ANH and TESB by going overbudget, and then making a career out of bashing Lucas for media exposure for the remainder of his life. Some contributions. Meanwhile Lucas has never spoken ill of him and even gave him a second chance at being producer. The fact that Kurtz fancied himself a creative kind who kept Lucas on a leash is laughable.

Marcia on the other hand made important contributions to the films, but they have been overexaggerated. She didn’t “save” anything that George wasn’t going to otherwise. She wasn’t the “heart” of Star Wars… this is something she herself has spoken out against. I have no ill will toward Marcia, but the clickbait that’s been written about her these past few years at the expense of George is in bad faith.

George is not a snake or a deceiver, but his offhand comments and soundbites have been overanalyzed and taken out of context by “fans” who have a bone to pick with him, hungry for “gotchas” for some reason. They also seem to have trouble decoding his dry sense of humor.

George brought out the best in his collaborators, not the other way around. Evidence shows that he was the one keeping Kurtz and Kasdan at bay, not the other way around. Kasdan, for example, had such a critical misunderstanding of Star Wars at its core that he believed Luke should go dark and kill the Emperor at the end of ROTJ. Lucas also was able to bait him into believing that another good ending would be Vader getting his cape stuck in a door and Luke subsequently going dark and becoming Vader. The script for TFA is what you get with Kasdan and no Lucas. Poorly aged and derivative.

The tired “yes man” argument made against George is one of the most uninformed lies perpetrated about him, if you’ve read anything on either trilogy, you would know he approached the productions in the same way: work closely with artists and collaborators, and finalize every decision himself. Nothing had changed. Not to mention, the very job of those people WAS to be “yes men”, that’s what a film production is… but George collaborated with them anyway.

George was playing with the ideas of a redeemed villain, a father/son story, and other plot threads that are ambiguous in ANH and properly established in TESB/ROTJ while he was writing the original drafts, but chose not to commit to these ideas, for practical reasons (possibility of ANH tanking) and creative reasons, while still leaving outs for himself such as Obi-Wan’s/Owen’s comments about Luke’s father and Vader’s survival.

Had Lucas not sold, I think his ST would have been revolutionary and would have again improved upon the preceding 6 movies. His ideas on the Whills and the “power vacuum” taking place after ROTJ are fascinating, and it’s a damn shame Disney has tried to pass off their films as a continuation of his story. Just glad most people don’t see them that way.

These are not really unpopular opinions among some of the more rabid pro-George or pro-Prequel fans.

Or some trolls and pro-George zealots who appear on here to repeat these views, while ignoring previous discussions and evidence presented on this forum to them.

Like your post in the “George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist” thread. It is not in good faith. Or looking to have a civil discussion:

Marioer said:

George Lucas made Star Wars, and the guys on originaltrilogy.com made a post about how Lucas some times makes offhand comments about his films. Great job!

But the facts and evidence in there and in other threads on this forum really do bother a lot of you pro-George or Pro-Prequel fans. The truth does hurt sometimes.

As others have said on here: “Facts don’t cease to exist because they are ignored.” However inconvenient the facts are.
 

Posts such as yours are unfortunate, because there are many fans on here who like or love George Lucas. The Prequels as well. Most people on here are fans of Star Wars too. But they do not reject the truth or factual history of Star Wars. Or reject evidence where George has “fallen short” sometimes.

Or look to deride the contributions of many others in helping to make Star Was films. Even if they no longer feature, or their roles are downplayed, in George Lucas’ re-written and retconned official history.

They are civil, have respect, empathy and understanding. And talk in good faith, even if we disagree sometimes. Values as a Christian (and as a family man, this is displayed in your signature) that I am sure you are familiar with, even if you do not display them on this forum so far.
 

Edit: These are four OT threads provide many pieces of relevant information to some of the claims made in your post (others on here may have more for you to read):

The 'Naysayer Guide’ by people who DON’T want an unaltered theatrical release of the Original Trilogy

An OriginalTrilogy.com Timeline | a history of the site | the why & how it came to be

Some useful OT.com threads re the non-release of the theatrical Original Trilogy

George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist

Maybe reading them with a more open mind will help you see and appreciate the views of many people on here? And then engaging in a civil discussion?

That is up to you, of course.

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

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I don’t know if this can be defined exactly as an unpopular opinion, but I think that the “Force balance” has a very precise meaning. In my opinion, “Force balance” means two things at the same time: 1) the destruction of the Sith; 2) balancing the Jedi path with the natural human desire of personal love and attachment.

To reach the Force balance the Sith must be destroyed, as they cause imbalance. The Sith don’t submit to the will of the Force and don’t respect the laws of nature, but try to bend the Force to their will and use it to create things that violate the laws of nature, for example the various monsters created through Sith alchemy during the Old Republic Era, or Darth Plagueis’ experiments with the midi-chlorians. Therefore in order for the Force balance to be restored the Sith must be destroyed, as they cause imbalance and the Force rejects them. This is why the Force created Anakin in Shmi’s womb and this is why the Force has a Chosen One who is destined to destroy the Sith. As explained in the Darth Plagueis novel, the Force created Anakin in Shmi’s womb because Darth Plagueis’ experiments with the midi-chlorians had led the Force to become unbalanced, then the Force itself reacted automatically by creating Anakin in Shmi’s womb in order to destroy the Sith once and for all, as the Force was tired of being continually brought into imbalance by the Sith. So, the Sith are a cause of imbalance and must be destroyed in order to reach balance.

However “balance” doesn’t only mean the destruction of the Sith, it also means being able to balance the Jedi path with human passions and emotions. Feeling affection for other people, falling in love and wanting a family are perfectly natural things, they’re part of human nature and the nature of many other humanoid species in the Galaxy. To forbid these feelings is to violate the laws of nature, so It’s a mistake and it’s a cause of imbalance. The Jedi made a great mistake by forbidding the members of the Order to experience these purely natural feelings, because forbidding a person to fall in love and have personal affections is like forbidding a lion to eat meat. It’s unnatural, it doesn’t work and it just creates problems. In fact, in the old EU it’s shown that many Jedi have attachment-related problems, because they felt feelings they were forbidden to feel, and so many of them often felt chained and imprisoned in themselves because of this. Therefore, balance doesn’t just mean the destruction of the Sith, it also means being able to express yourself through your emotions and attachments, but without letting your emotions dominate you. In other words, it means allowing the Jedi to experience the normal feelings of individual love and attachment, but without letting these feelings cloud their judgment.

So, why is Anakin the Chosen One and how he brought balance? Simple: through his fall to the Dark Side and through the Jedi purge he opened the eyes of the Order and made the Jedi see what they did wrong, in fact, after the Battle of Endor and the re-establishment of the Jedi Order Luke allowed the Jedi to have families and affections, letting them to be freer and to be at peace with themselves and balancing the Jedi path with the natural desire of personal love, affection and attachment. In addition, through his redemption, Anakin destroyed Darth Vader and Darth Sidious, destroying the Sith Order forever.

So, as Yoda suggested in Revenge of the Sith, the Prophecy was misunderstood. The Jedi were partially wrong about the meaning of the Prophecy. The Jedi of the Prequel Era were right in saying that the Prophecy foresaw the destruction of the Sith, but they were wrong in believing that they were in balance. The Jedi stopped being in balance when they forbade attachment and love (after the events of the Tales of the Jedi comics) and returned to be in balance when Luke Skywalker, the son of the Chosen One, implemented his less dogmatic and less rigid ideas and built the New Jedi Order.

This is in my opinion the most complete and coherent interpretation of the Prophecy and the meaning of the Force balance. Unfortunately this explanation can only work in the context of the old EU, and only by eliminating the Dark Empire Trilogy and basically everything that comes after the NJO series. However, I think it’s worth it.

«This is where the fun begins!»
(Anakin Skywalker)

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I love Lucas films. I’m a Lucas diehard. I also think the prequels aren’t all that good. And it has tarnished his reputation as a filmmaker. The original Star Wars, American Graffiti and THX 1138 are great films. I wish Lucas loved his films as much as i do. He would release the originals for all of them and they’d have catalog releases like every other Hollywood production in a modern HD format.

I also can’t believe the lies he has told since the 90’s about it always being the story of Darth Vader, or that it always was a family saga with a father, son and a daughter. It wasn’t, none of them were related in the beginning. And it was Luke’s story.

The information is there in Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, the first two films where Leia wasn’t a Skywalker, the original film where Obi Wan didn’t lie and Vader wasn’t Luke’s father. The Leigh Brackett Star Wars II script etc.

He did have great collaborators, Walter Murch on THX and Graffiti, Haskel Wexler on Graffiti. Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck. On Star Wars, Graffiti, And Temple of Doom. Gary Kurtz should be given credit, as well as Marcia Lucas, And Charley Lippincott. David Prowse should have been treated better. We now know how much credit is due to Howard Kazanjian and his efforts. You could write volumes of books just on the effects artists and concept artists and how they made those Star Wars movies. An auteur no doubt, but surrounded by genius talent like John Dykstra, Ralph Mcquarrie, Joe Johnston.

Lucas didn’t do it on his own. He was the general, but the rest of the people did all the things to make his vision come to life.

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Darth Malgus said:

I don’t know if this can be defined exactly as an unpopular opinion, but I think that the “Force balance” has a very precise meaning. In my opinion, “Force balance” means two things at the same time: 1) the destruction of the Sith; 2) balancing the Jedi path with the natural human desire of personal love and attachment.

I like this very much, head canon thinking or sorts, a different POV, and one I can get on board with. I enjoyed reading that, and is something to think about. All of your post, not just the little bit I quoted. Thanks Darth Malgus.

“The other Sequels were the result of an over-anxious press. The original intention was to make three [films], and that was really the end of it. It was not until 10 years after the first [film] that I thought of doing a back story.” - George Lucas, speaking at the Premiere of ROTS in 2005

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JadedSkywalker said:

He did have great collaborators, Walter Murch on THX and Graffiti, Haskel Wexler on Graffiti. Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck. On Star Wars, Graffiti, And Temple of Doom. Gary Kurtz should be given credit, as well as Marcia Lucas, And Charley Lippincott. David Prowse should have been treated better. We now know how much credit is due to Howard Kazanjian and his efforts. You could write volumes of books just on the effects artists and concept artists and how they made those Star Wars movies. An auteur no doubt, but surrounded by genius talent like John Dykstra, Ralph Mcquarrie, Joe Johnston.

Lucas didn’t do it on his own. He was the general, but the rest of the people did all the things to make his vision come to life.

Plus John Williams and Ben Burtt. So many others talents too, we would be here all day if we were to go through them and we would likely still miss out some people and their contributions.

I find it very weird that when some fans give praise or credit to the many different talents involved in making these films, other fans appear and say this is somehow criticizing or disrespecting Lucas.

“The other Sequels were the result of an over-anxious press. The original intention was to make three [films], and that was really the end of it. It was not until 10 years after the first [film] that I thought of doing a back story.” - George Lucas, speaking at the Premiere of ROTS in 2005

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Kylo Ren isn’t a well written character. He’s an excellent performance by Adam Driver, who managed to really elevate the role, but the actual character writing is really bad.

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Like many things with Star Wars and the ST specifically, Kylo Ren is something that could’ve been kino but didn’t pan out

Death of the Author

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SparkySywer said:

Like many things with Star Wars and the ST specifically, Kylo Ren is something that could’ve been kino but didn’t pan out

Exactly. In a way, that applies to a lot of Star Wars.

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All of Dave Filoni’s shows are decent but overrated at best (ATLA/TCW) but mostly kinda bad. The Mandalorian is his best show, but it seems that it was good in spite of him. The two episodes he directed were the worst two.

Death of the Author

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SparkySywer said:

All of Dave Filoni’s shows are decent but overrated at best (ATLA/TCW) but mostly kinda bad. The Mandalorian is his best show, but it seems that it was good in spite of him. The two episodes he directed were the worst two.

I wholeheartedly agree.

What irritates me the most is how everyone is always praising him for his work on the various SW shows.

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SparkySywer said:

All of Dave Filoni’s shows are decent but overrated at best (ATLA/TCW) but mostly kinda bad. The Mandalorian is his best show, but it seems that it was good in spite of him. The two episodes he directed were the worst two.

You did NOT just say ATLA is overrated.

(TCW might be a little overrated though. I think it’s great and I love it but it irritates me that so many fans just cherry pick the good parts and ignore the bad)

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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SparkySywer said:

All of Dave Filoni’s shows are decent but overrated at best (ATLA/TCW) but mostly kinda bad. The Mandalorian is his best show, but it seems that it was good in spite of him. The two episodes he directed were the worst two.

Agreed! ❤️

«This is where the fun begins!»
(Anakin Skywalker)

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jedi_bendu said:

SparkySywer said:

All of Dave Filoni’s shows are decent but overrated at best (ATLA/TCW) but mostly kinda bad. The Mandalorian is his best show, but it seems that it was good in spite of him. The two episodes he directed were the worst two.

You did NOT just say ATLA is overrated.

(TCW might be a little overrated though. I think it’s great and I love it but it irritates me that so many fans just cherry pick the good parts and ignore the bad)

Also, Filoni only touched Season One of ATLA. That’s easily it’s weakest season.

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BedeHistory731 said:

That’s easily it’s weakest season.

Yeah, but that’s not saying much. It’s still a great season, and I remember his episodes being very well directed. He did the premiere ones and the finale ones with some in between IIRC

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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jedi_bendu said:

BedeHistory731 said:

That’s easily it’s weakest season.

Yeah, but that’s not saying much. It’s still a great season, and I remember his episodes being very well directed. He did the premiere ones and the finale ones with some in between IIRC

Indeed. Being the weakest ATLA season is like being the least talented member of Emerson, Lake & Palmer. Carl Palmer is still a legendary percussionist, much like how ATLA’s first season is still wonderful.

But back to the point, Filoni is hit-or-miss with Star Wars IMHO. When he does well, it’s really good. When he’s off his game, it’s intolerable.

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On paper, I actually don’t mind that the shows have revisited Tatooine so much. What I do mind is how dull, drab, and washed out Tatooine looks in the shows. A desert planet should look more visually interesting, with striking sunrises and sunsets. Just because it’s a planet with long stretches of nothing doesn’t mean the nothingness has to look boring.

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While yes, a desert can be striking and beautiful, there is at least a thematic reason why Tatooine is so drab in Star Wars, that being Luke’s angst at his backwater nothing planet.

I’d like to see a desert planet in Star Wars that actually is stunning. Pasaana tries to do this but it isn’t fully there.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

While yes, a desert can be striking and beautiful, there is at least a thematic reason why Tatooine is so drab in Star Wars, that being Luke’s angst at his backwater nothing planet.

I’d like to see a desert planet in Star Wars that actually is stunning. Pasaana tries to do this but it isn’t fully there.

Tatooine does serve that thematic purpose, but it also acts as a “land of mystery,” like when the droids are wandering across it. That’s something that’s been missing from Tatooine for a while, that sense of "alien"ness and mystery. And I’d argue that Tatooine wasn’t visually drab for the most part in the films.

This isn’t a landscape example, but one comparison that comes to mind is the Cantina. In the movie, it’s filed with wacky/scary aliens, there’s Benny Hill-style (but still kinda alien-sounding) music playing, and the room is lit with warm lighting. In The Mandalorian, the Cantina is coldly lit, quiet, and mostly empty.

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SparkySywer said:

All of Dave Filoni’s shows are decent but overrated at best (ATLA/TCW) but mostly kinda bad. The Mandalorian is his best show, but it seems that it was good in spite of him. The two episodes he directed were the worst two.

what is this ATLA slander

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SparkySywer said:

If it weren’t for 2000s nostalgia being in right now, ATLA would be seen as just kind of above average.

Eh, I’d beg to differ. It was probably the most successful attempt at a shonen anime among western studios, tackling plenty of mature topics and providing a satisfying narrative. If we want a Nickelodeon show that falls apart under any scrutiny, the numerous Dan Schneider sitcoms fit the bill.

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NeverarGreat said:

But as noted, Filoni isn’t great at translating that broad simplistic emotionality into adult drama, which is one reason why his other shows suffer.

Definitely in that regard.

Bringing the thread back around, I would’ve liked to have seen Tagge’s full bit at the briefing table restored to ANH (i.e., Death Star is Tarkin’s vanity project and Vader is a Sith) during the SE. The same thought goes for “OK, hotshot!” during the Han-Leia kissing scene.