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Unpopular Opinion Thread — Page 19

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This one might be a little spicy.

TLJ’s portrayal of depression through Luke is offensive to people actually struggling with depression. This notion in the film that depression caused by trauma makes it understandable for you to abandon your family and become a bitter, callous, generally crappy person to others for no good reason, is neither accurate nor helpful to depressed people, and doesn’t reflect how most people actually cope with mental health issues. TLJ Luke’s depression is a cartoonishly exaggerated form of depression written in a way that shows a lack of understanding of what it actually is and how it affects people. It conflates depression with being an awful person.

And yes, he does “redeem” himself at the end of the film, but it doesn’t come off as a genuine return to goodness, since he’s still trolling Kylo, the man he once traumatized, and generally still acting snide and sarcastic, while not making any attempt to right the wrongs he committed towards him.

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Actually that’s a pretty accurate depiction of depression, only reinforced by the specific trauma relating to shame and guilt over personal actions.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I think the bigger but not only problem with Luke is that we don’t see him get this way. Like many things in the trilogy it feels like essential pieces of the narrative are pushed to backstory or are never acknowledged to get us up to speed. It feels like an important story was skipped over in favour of something familiar and nostalgic with The Force Awakens.

On its own merits I think The Last Jedi in general is a very flawed but pretty intriguing and layered film. It’s far from a masterpiece or the dumpster fire some claim it to be. It’s somewhere in the middle but finding middle ground discussion around it is like finding a needle in a haystack.

As its own thing I give it about a 7.5 or 8 out of 10.

If I had to rate it as a continuation of George Lucas Star Wars I’d give it about a 4 out of 10. However even then I admittedly find that to be pushing it.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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I think the story works within the context of the film. The one thing i had a problem with was Luke trying to kill Ben in his sleep, he would never do that. It was out of character. I also agree with Mark Hamill that Luke would’ve never given up.

Throwing away the lightsaber makes perfect sense though it is rejecting the call to adventure. It could have been handled differently sure, he could have just handed it back to Rey. This is a weapon for a Jedi, i’m no Jedi. Or even he had forsaken violence and would never take up the sword again.

I think Rian had a story to tell and he could tell it the only way he knew. And he is correct in saying it is about the story. Not the fans. Lucas would have done the same thing. The story has to thrive organically and have its own beats. Rian fits right into the auteur theory of directors, while JJ has a checklist of cool visuals and throw away fan service junk storytelling. The film by copy paste boardroom of executives. Assembly line filmaking and total lack of vision and creativity. He put Luke on an island because he had the total inability to figure out how to include him with Rey and the new cast. At least Rian gave Luke a story purpose even if you disagree with some of its arc or if it even made sense.

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JadedSkywalker said:

I think the story works within the context of the film. The one thing i had a problem with was Luke trying to kill Ben in his sleep, he would never do that. It was out of character. I also agree with Mark Hamill that Luke would’ve never given up.

Throwing away the lightsaber makes perfect sense though it is rejecting the call to adventure. It could have been handled differently sure, he could have just handed it back to Rey. This is a weapon for a Jedi, i’m no Jedi. Or even he had forsaken violence and would never take up the sword again.

I think Rian had a story to tell and he could tell it the only way he knew. And he is correct in saying it is about the story. Not the fans. Lucas would have done the same thing. The story has to thrive organically and have its own beats. Rian fits right into the auteur theory of directors, while JJ has a checklist of cool visuals and throw away fan service junk storytelling. The film by copy paste boardroom of executives. Assembly line filmaking and total lack of vision and creativity. He put Luke on an island because he had the total inability to figure out how to include him with Rey and the new cast. At least Rian gave Luke a story purpose even if you disagree with some of its arc or if it even made sense.

Agreed. I think Luke also contemplating killing Ben regresses a point in his character development he already experienced and better.

I think a more likely failing on his part would be being stubborn in his ways and forgetting how he needed help as he always did things as a team in the Original Trilogy like Obi-Wan helping him destroy the Death Star and his father saving him from Palpatine. What would happen if Luke thought he could do everything alone and his failings were his own hubris? He could still care about his family and friends but forget just how important they are when focusing more on the Jedi path.

I also don’t think Luke would give up but I blame J.J. more so for putting the story in the position to make it the only logical explanation as to why he’d walk away from his family and friends.

I don’t particularly like him tossing the lightsaber but I think that’s because of how it’s portrayed as comical and not serious. However I do admit to sort of giggling when the porgs are playing with it.

Exactly again. That’s why I appreciate Rian’s take more too. I may not always agree with his vision but I can at least get there to a degree and appreciate the film on its own merits. It doesn’t feel like it’s a full on lack of vision, creativity, and respect but instead like it challenges our notions of what a Star Wars film can be. I like it a lot for the same or similar reasons. I just find that it at the same time doesn’t connect to George Lucas Star Wars as it’s vastly different in voice, tone, and style.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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I had a very different reaction to Luke tossing his father’s lightsaber. It marked the moment the movie got me hooked.

My only issue with TLJ is Rose’s overt idealism, as I dislike that sort of thing and also because it reeks of SJW.

Rian Johnson insists his SW trilogy is still going ahead, but I worry he’ll lose sight of it with his Knives Out sequels. I really want to see what he can do with Star Wars without the baggage of the main saga.

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Removed.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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BedeHistory731 said:

🙄

Yeah I can’t lie, that was pretty much my reaction too. Seeing the term ‘SJW’ being thrown around like we’re still in 2016 just annoys me no end.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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I didn’t know the term was taboo 'round here.

Still, Rose’s statements about how the wealthy people in Canto Bight have profited from war and exploiting the downtrodden, and later on her statement about saving what we love, not fighting what we hate come off as incredibly preachy and hokey. It just rubs me the wrong way.

Other than that I have no issues with Rose and think she’s a fine character.

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Ultimately, Luke in the OT was an aspirational character because he struggled. He repeatedly stumbled and fell over the course of the trilogy. But while he questioned himself, he never slinked away from his sense of purpose, nor did he waver from his drive to help others.

The issue is that TLJ tries to show a Luke who has stumbled and ends the film with him “getting back on his feet” and being a hero again, but going into a suicidal exile for 6 years and convincing yourself that the Jedi deserve to die out is not some momentary weakness. That’s a massive character shift that contradicts two of Luke’s defining traits in the OT: his compassion, and his unwillingness to give up. Luke could have been shown as depressed or struggling while still keeping those core traits intact.

Letting the Jedi end because he doesn’t want more Sith to emerge is sort of understandable, but when there are Dark Siders actively terrorizing the galaxy, the least he could do is try to correct the situation before ending the Jedi for good. And Luke could of course renounce the Jedi while still assisting against the First Order in other ways.

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I like Rose. A spirited character who has a lot of courage, sometimes foolhardy and idealist.

Ultimately she doesn’t do anything though because JJ sidelined her.

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I mainly dislike Rose because she tazered Finn, thus derailing him from a more interesting storyline, and essentially hijacking his arc to preach to a former child soldier about oppression.

Finn’s demotion from co-protagonist in TFA to being confined to a filler D-plot in TLJ is something that will always rub be the wrong way.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the issues with Luke in TLJ are very similar to the issues with Superman in the Zack Snyder DC movies. The notion heavily implied in Snyder’s movies, that if Lois Lane were to die, Superman would basically lose his marbles and turn against humanity, is absurd, and shows a lack of understanding of the character, his resilience, and the strength of his convictions. It’s antithetical to Superman. Besides that, his lack of an emotional response to the mass destruction caused by Zod and himself during the final battle in Man of Steel, makes him seem completely lacking in empathy, since any ordinary person would be horrified by the death and destruction around them. The fact that he feels more upset about killing Zod than about all the civilian casualties during the battle, makes it seem like he lacks a strong emotional attachment to humanity, which is ridiculous, since he’s essentially human in every way that counts.

TLJ doesn’t humanize Luke, in the same way that Man of Steel doesn’t humanize Superman. They were already human.

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Servii said:

This one might be a little spicy.

Luke’s characterization in TLJ isn’t really about him being depressed. He’s not on the island because he’s depressed. He’s on the island because he made the rational decision that the galaxy is better off without him, and also he just so happens to be depressed.

Death of the Author

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fmalover said:

I didn’t know the term was taboo 'round here.

Sorry to briefly go off-topic again, but it’s not that it’s taboo or anything, just that I don’t like it. Perhaps ‘social justice warrior’ used to make fun of people whose activism - while perhaps morally correct - is all online, and annoyingly relentless and self-righteous. Now I almost always see it used for people who just want social justice, particularly diversity in storytelling, when that is completely justified. The term has become near-meaningless, outdated, and I resent still having to see it on a regular basis.

I can see why you’d find Rose’s line “that’s how we’re gonna win: not fighting what we hate…” etc idealistic. Personally, I don’t see that as a problem, since a lot of Star Wars is idealistic anyway. My problem is it’s a bit corny and contradicts Finn’s arc across the film: saving what/who he loves (Rey) instead of fighting the First Order is exactly what Rose stops him from doing at the start of TLJ.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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I don’t have a problem with idealism per se, but when it’s so in-your-face as presented in TLJ, or in series such as The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, it’s a major turn-off for me.

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Unpopular opinions:

  • Despite recognizing its flaws (mainly handling of the Anakin-Padme romance and failure to do ANYTHING to explore how Owen’s history with Anakin and Shmi colored his desire that Luke have nothing to do with Obi-Wan), I un-ironically love Attack of the Clones. Christopher Lee, Ewan McGregor, our first real Mandalorian action, Slave I in action, mind-tricking drug dealers, dozens of lightsabers onscreen at once, making the previous movie’s comic relief the unwitting dupe of a dictator, lightsaber-dueling Yoda (maybe that one should be its own unpopular opinion), the first full-scale battle of the Clone Wars…that’s all great stuff.

  • The Rey-Kylo duel on Starkiller Base is one of my favorite lightsaber duels – probably somewhere in my Top 3 – because to me it feels like it blends the energy of the prequel duels with the rawness of the OT duels. It also benefitted greatly from those new prop sabers that actually cast the proper glows on the actors and sets.

Co-author of STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER - THE TEAM DALE REWRITE

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The lightsaber duel between Rey and Kylo was well done, no doubt about it, but my biggest problem with it perfectly summed up by Snoke: “Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber.”

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fmalover said:

The lightsaber duel between Rey and Kylo was well done, no doubt about it, but my biggest problem with it perfectly summed up by Snoke: “Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber.”

I definitely think this is a storytelling problem, as it means we know Rey can defeat Kylo anyway and there are therefore far lower stakes when she’s trying to convince Luke to train her. I’m still in admiration though that TLJ took this common complaint and actually incorporated it into the plot of the film. It’s clearly a sore topic for Kylo when Snoke brings it up and highlights how his inner conflict is holding him back.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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I have my issues with TFA, but Rey beating Kylo was not among them. I thought it was really effective the way we were shown (rather than told) step-by-step that (1) Rey has melee weapon experience, and has probably been defending herself for a good chunk of her life the way we see on Jakku; (2) Chewie’s bowcaster is serious business; (3) Kylo goes into the duel nursing a serious injury (in light of which it’s impressive that he’s still able to stand, let alone fight); (4) even so, Rey is thoroughly on defense until she lets the Force take over. In fact, that was one of the things that (foolishly) led me to expect better from TROS. Boy, was I wrong.

Co-author of STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER - THE TEAM DALE REWRITE

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That’s another thing that bothered about TFA. In all their years working together Han had never tested Chewie’s bowcaster up until now?

I really hate TFA, and it’s because of it that I refuse to watch TRoS.

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TFA does go out of its way to make Rey’s victory over Kylo make internal sense, but that doesn’t mean it was a good story decision. Really, other than showing off how powerful Rey was, and bruising Kylo’s ego, it doesn’t accomplish much or advance the story. Rey defeating Kylo doesn’t have any significant effects on the plot, since Rey and Kylo are separated by a crevice and both escape SKB regardless. The fight being a draw would have had the same story result, with Kylo still being impressed by Rey’s power.

Generally, it’s a bad idea to so thoroughly humiliate your villain in the first part of your trilogy, especially if there are plans to kill off his superior and make him the big bad in the future. Watching Kylo flop around in the snow took away whatever degree of intimidation he had left, and made his character in need of rehabilitation over the following films. TFA implied this would happen with Snoke ordering that Kylo be brought to him because “It is time to complete his training.”

TLJ never gives us that training, though. Instead, it lampshades how embarrassing Kylo’s failure was, which was a good idea, but the movie never tries to rehabilitate Kylo or make him a viable threat again, even after Snoke’s death. So, the movie ends with a weak main villain leading into Episode IX. Given that, it’s no surprise at all that TRoS brought in Palpatine, and that Trevorrow’s DotF script tried so frantically to buff Kylo and make him a worthy enemy.

Also, of course, Rey being so powerful already undercuts her need for training. And her line to Luke about how she needs to bring the Jedi back “because Kylo Ren is strong in the Dark Side of the Force” rings hollow given what we know.

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The Force Awakens duel is a play by play of the Attack of the Clones duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan versus Dooku. The imagery and beats are nearly identical. It feels like a massive copy and paste except more choppy and less fluid in movement.

Cadavra, I agree for the most part about Attack of the Clones. It was probably the one I watched most as a kid along with Return of the Jedi. I’ve been revisiting Clones the most lately when I rewatch the films and am finding I love it just as much now. It’s not perfect but I like the romance. It’s interesting exploring two characters who come from repressed environments of being a Jedi and Senator to finding comfort and love. Padme in particular I find comes into her own and slowly begins to allow herself to feel something. Anakin struggles with it too but is more emotionally charged and struggles with lust and pleasure versus real love. We know he loves her though but ultimately as we know she choses the wrong guy.

I do wish we had seen Owen be more hesitant for Anakin to go but I do think it works well enough that we don’t need it. In Clones we see Ki-Adi-Mundi refer to Dooku as a “political idealist” and years later we have Obi-Wan refer to the Clone Wars as an “idealistic crusade” but we also see R2 show up at the end of Shimi’s funeral with a message from him. Owen was present and heard his name. So years later there’s wiggle room I think for him to blame Obi-Wan for taking Anakin away for the war. He did have a bit of an irrational streak to his personality that Beru helped him with. So it’s not out of the realm of possibility he didn’t have full context. Obi-Wan implied as much.

The one thing I wish we had seen on screen is the Lars letting C-3PO leave Tatooine. It’s probably my biggest nitpick with the film that I can think of off hand.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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I agree there’s a lot to love about Attack of the Clones (the Coruscant chase scene remains one of my favorite scene from the movies) but there are 4 things that make it one of the worst movie in the saga in my opinion:

-the love story.

-The mystery surrounding Padmé’s assassination attempt/clone army creation makes no sense.

-As people above me already said, the wasted potential of Owen Lars. Anakin’s encounter with his step-family was the perfect opportunity to show us what his life could have been if he never left Tatooine. There could have been a couple of scenes where he and Owen discuss there views of the world: running away on adventures vs staying home safe and not “getting involved”. Anakin could have question the Jedi and his life even more because of that, but ultimately would have to leave to rescue Obi-Wan. I still really like the Tatooine part of the movie as it is, but it’s a shame when I think about what could have been.

-Anakin killing the Tusken raiders feels too extreme.

Sorry this might have been off-topic, so here’s two unpopular opinions:
The Battle of Hoth is overrated
If I had to keep one change from the SE, it would probably be ghost Anakin.

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Valid points about giving Kylo such an ignoble defeat so early in the trilogy. Although how big an issue it’ll be for the viewer depends on whether you see him primarily as an antagonist and threat. For me, the fact that they let us know so early he was Han & Leia’s son had me seeing him not as a Big Bad for the heroes to ultimately overcome but rather as a quasi-protagonist in his own right, a screwed-up character on a journey of his own (of course, whether that was a good story decision is a different question).

Co-author of STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER - THE TEAM DALE REWRITE