Ultimate Trilogy Set

Not sure if this topic is in the right place or not, but I would assume it goes here.

It was mentioned in The People vs. George Lucas by one of those five really potty-mouthed guys that there should be an Ultimate Trilogy Set that ("has like 70 discs") features every version of every film.

More like 23 discs if you include the relevent versions; but the reason that I posted this is because I want to know people's opinions about which versions should be included.

This is my list:

Star Wars:

• 1977 (Theatrical) (Mono & Stereo Mixes)
• 1979 (Re-Release)
• 1981 (Re-Release)
• 1985 (VHS)
• 1995 (Definitive/THX)
• 1997 (Special Edition)
• 2004 (DVD)
• 2011 (Blu-Ray)

 The Empire Strikes Back:

• 1980 (35 mm Theatrical)
• 1980 (70 mm Theatrical)
• 1997 (Special Edition)
• 2004 (DVD)
• 2011 (Blu-Ray)

Return of the Jedi:

• 1983 (Theatrical)
• 1997 (Special Edition)
• 2004 (DVD)
• 2011 (Blu-Ray)

The Phantom Menace:

• 1999 (Theatrical)
• 2004 (DVD)
• 2011 (Blu-Ray)

Attack of the Clones:

• 2002 (Theatrical)
• 2004 (DVD)
• 2011 (Blu-Ray)

Revenge of the Sith:

• 2011 (Blu-Ray)

There are other versions of the films, but the question comes in: are they really necessary to include? Versions such as the 1985 VHS versions of the original trilogy. I think that those versions of TESB and ROTJ were identical to their theatrical versions, and even more so, I don't think that any changes were made to ROTJ until the Special Edition in 1997. What exactly were the changes made to the 1985 ANH? I'm pretty sure there were several audio changes.

I'm also not sure that the 1979 re-release version of ANH is any different than the theatrical version. I once heard that the Luke & Biggs scene at the Rebel Base was included in the 1977 theatrical version and was deleted in the 1979 re-release. I don't know if that was ever confirmed or not. But I am pretty sure it was confirmed that there were a number of visual changes to the 1981 re-release.

The 1993/1995 version of ANH should be included because there was a new sound mix added with new sound effects. The old sound effects can be heard if you watch the 2006 GOUT in Spanish or French, as those two are in the Mono format.

The 70 mm and 35 mm versions of TESB would have to be on two different discs because there were quite a few visual differences as well as audio.

I don't think there's any other question of the others on the list; and by the way, the reason that there is only the 2011 version of ROTS on my list is because there was only one change made from the theatrical and DVD, and that was the removal of the wipe effect after Obi-Wan leaves Mustafar, and it was put back into the Blu-ray, so there's no need for three discs just because of that.

Any suggestions or comments?

If this is an Ultimate Set why not have everything even if it is identical. 

(which none of the releases are as each has some thing applied to it (often minor and imperceivable) which tweaks the film to fit the release medium)

one of those five really potty-mouthed guys

People like myself don't deem certain words in language as offensive, so if you can remember who from PvsG are you talking about, please clarify.

For me the idea of a Disc Set, let alone an Ultimate Trilogy Set, is outdated.  Just make all the versions and variations purchasable online.  If I want to watch the 1985 RotJ in Spanish with Korean subs, let me do that.

Generally on changes between versions there are many threads in these forums attempting to identify them.  Unfortunately not one resource listing them all.  So if you poke around some of your questions can be answered from threads like:

Opening day 1977 3 audio versions info: http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/star_wars_a_day_long_remembered.htm

Dialog changes: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Definitive-tractor-beam-Close-the-blast-doors-Blast-it-Biggs-Wedge-you-dont-taste-very-good-Noooooo-Preservation-Guide/topic/13428/

ESB 70mm/35mm changes: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/post/537626/#TopicPost537626   (you probably don't need a full second disc for this, as the visual changes are few and the audio changes might not be that long of a list)  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-70mm-Soundtrack-1980-in-theatre-recording/topic/12501/page/1/

On RotS: there are more changes in the 2011 then just the wipe: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/DIF-Difference-tool-to-spot-visual-changes-SW-2004-2011/post/536882/#TopicPost536882

and new things found like 1977 credit changes: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Credits-Leaders-Thread-was-Star-Wars-Pre-Re-release-Credit-Change-June-77/topic/12960/

The Phantom Menace had the alternative opening day version where Maul is not cut in half.  There also might have been differences between the film and digital version.  There were changes between the digital and film versions of Attack of the Clones.  Attack of the Clones also had an IMAX edit which people have mentioned liking.

This thread is similar to: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-film-versions-and-best-DVD-sources/topic/6126/

The ultimate set for me would simply be all theatrical versions properly cleaned up and restored to the original color timing, with all of the dynamicness of the picture preserved.

I understand the idea of the thread though, but considering that we might not even see a proper release of the original theatrical versions of each film in the near future, (and even more unlikely, properly restored) the hope of seeing a release of EVERY version is like non-existent.

I say release every official version ever released - except for the recent Blu-Ray release; it's a mean-spirited abomination created out of spite and doesn't deserve recognition.

I know about most, if not all, of the dialouge and visual changes for the Mono and Stereo versions of ANH and TESB. I was the one who recently added them in detail to the Wikipedia article before it was almost completely abolished, save the deleted scenes, by "the source police."

I don't think that it would even matter to us (at least not me) that EVERY version is included even if changes in one are the timing of the wipe effects. I may care about small things, but not that small.

I also doubt that there are sources available for versions with small changes such as the press screening of The Phantom Menace.

The slight differences don't really matter that much to me.  Frankly, DJ's release with the various audio mixes fits that niche nicely for me, and if simply a single high quality widescreen disc of the OUT were released that had all the audio versions, that would suffice for me.  I like variant versions, so I wouldn't mind the 97, 04, and 11 releases as well on separate discs.

I'd be satisfied with the major variants on a branching DVD.  

Both '77 and '79 versions of Star Wars with multiple audio tracks on the same blu-ray.

The original 70mm and later 70mm/35mm version of Empire with multiple audio tracks on the same blu-ray disc.

'83 version of Jedi with multiple audio tracks.

I don't need 70 different discs.  Just a good, solid release without any bells or whistles.  No t-shirts, posters or book-ends.  I don't even need a fancy case.

Thanks, that's just what I meant.

msycamore said:

So what are these visual changes between the film prints with mono and stereo tracks you're talking about? Empire never even got a mono mix.

 I was referring to the 70mm version when I said the mono mix. I just say that because it's easier.

Mainly, this is what versions should be included for all films:

-Theatrical Version

-97 SE OT

-DVD Version

-Blu-Ray Version

-6.1 DTS-HD MA plus original soundtracks and Laserdisc mixes for the theatrical versions of the OT.

-All extras from every VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, and Blu-Ray release plus new and discovered content.

On the Super 8mm version of ESB, Threepio has extra dialogue when they board the Falcon on Cloud City as in...."Artoo, so good that we're together again" as Artoo pulls Threepio along the floor.

What version does that track come from ?

captainsolo said:

SW: The 6 channels were done this way originally- Left, Center, Right, Mono surround and two baby booms on each side of the center channel. These only augmented the bass instead of being discrete. You essentially would just need a 4.0 channel mix and a sub to get the idea. If you added in two speakers you could recreate the full experience but this would necessitate a 6.0 mix or a 7.1 receiver where you could just turn on extra speakers as mirrors cut out the treble and place them accordingly.

ESB and ROTJ were done in stereo surround without the baby booms so this would be much easier.

Not so; in addition to augmenting the low end of the main channels, all three films had real LFE content in their 70mm releases.  This seems to be a point of confusion, but the research I've done on the topic indicates it to be the case, most particularly the remarks of THX engineer Tomlinson Holman (who incidentally is responsible for the adoption of 5.1 as the industry standard audio format).  Also, none of the movies ever had stereo surrounds originally.

In fact, the reason the second and fourth channels of 70mm magnetic sound were used for bass purposes in the first place was because that was the only way to achieve a 'thunderous low end' when the Star Destroyer first goes by overhead.  It's possible that it wasn't quite as loud as you'd expect of such things these days, true, what with subwoofers not yet being standard issue and headroom not quite as high as digital formats, but it was definitely there.  Even listening to a low-fi tape recording made at a 70mm screening the discrete bass content can sometimes be discerned as clearly distinct from the rest of the mix.

The augmented portions of the boom tracks would be a bit problematic for fitting into modern formats, particularly for the first movie since the low pass filter was first set at 250 hz, though by the time the other two came out that had been changed to 125 hz to avoid noticeable crosstalk with the main channels.  Dolby Digital only allows for LFE going up to 120 hz: a flat limit, not just a rolloff, in order to save bandwidth by taking advantage of the Nyquist frequency and only using a sample rate of 240 for the LFE.  In general mixing practice, it tends to be rolled off around 80 hz to avoid the upper limit, and is only used for discrete effects and never as a general crossover.  In making the 1993 mixes for the Definitive Collection laserdiscs, the boom tracks were deemed unsuitable because of these conditions, and the low end was instead added from separate sound effects masters as is the present custom.

So—the 70mm mixes cannot be presented exactly as they are in a remastering.  The LCRS main channels could simply be ported over directly, but the bass needs some care taken to achieve an optimal effect.  Either it would have to take the same path as the '93 mixes and be created over again, hopefully following the aesthetic of the original; or else the actual LFE content isolated from the boom tracks and summed together into one at a proper level.  Either way, the result would be a 4.1 mix with monaural surround, similar to what appears on the Bluray releases of Alien and Aliens.  (The fact that those include their 70mm audio shows that it can be done easily enough as long as proper care is taken.)

hairy_hen said:

Either way, the result would be a 4.1 mix with monaural surround, similar to what appears on the Bluray releases of Alien and Aliens.  (The fact that those include their 70mm audio shows that it can be done easily enough as long as proper care is taken.)

Were the 70mm mixes ever properly confirmed as the source for these tracks? It seemed to be the most likely case (what with their being 4.1 as opposed to 5.1) but since the menus and packaging are so reluctant to discuss any technical specifics...

Hmmm... I've just checked the three sound mixes on the Blu (DTS, Dolby 4.1 and Dolby 2.0) and not only is the "Kane's son" line present on all of them, the take used for Dallas' "Morning Mother" sounds exactly the same! I even popped in the 20th anniversary DVD for comparison - the two tracks on that release sound no different in those scenes.

Is the '95 laserdisc possibly the only proper preservation of the 70mm mix? Thanks for the reminder of that, by the way. I've never seen/heard that disc but I was aware of its existence. I wonder if that track has ever been extracted (not sure of the ins and outs of AC-3 on laser).

And I'm aware that these posts have been wildly off-topic, so perhaps we should discuss this elsewhere! It's just that I saw a 70mm screening about 15 years ago, and its raw and vital quality made quite an impression on me - none of the Blu audio tracks have quite the same effect.