Turning to the Dark Side: PT vs. OT

Believable motivation

Terrible execution

First, I wanted to write about my favorite scene from KotOR2 (which, sadly, had a lot more potential as a game). It's a scene from Nar Shadaa, a beggar asks the player character money. We can give him money (light side path, kinda), but the beggar will be mugged (or killed) a few moments later. Or we can send him away (dark side path, kinda), and the beggar will kill another person to get money.

Which reminds me, that the Dark Side concept in KotOR2 is more interesting than in KotOR1. In KotOR1, it's like:

- Please, help me! Those bandits want to kill me!

- (Player Character) DIIIIEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

- Sir, I'm a poor man, give me some money, please...

- DIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

- Good day, and I have a business proposition for you

- DIIIIEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

- Hello th---

- DIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not have much to say right now, apart from what I said in the thread corellian77 gave link to. That I consider the OT Dark Side stuff rather implausible, the PT concept plausible but flawed because of the OT concept it had to connect to (Anakin becoming the bad-ass evil machine Vader everyone wanted him to become) which led to a very strange scene after Anakin helped to kill Mace.

I mean, in OT, the Dark Side is basically Evil. Now, I want to point out that I'm a person which likes the point of view concept. Which was concieved in RotJ. But still, in the OT the Dark Side was basically being evil with little to no moral values at all, or any other goals other than "THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE", with the Light Side not being shown as so light, because, PT aside, Obi-Wan and Yoda told lies to Anakin to use him as a tool to kill Vader. Obi-Wan, even after Luke learned that Vader is his father, wanted the boy to kill Vader.But, you know. All for greater good, right? Yeah, the point of view was applied only to the light side, no redeeming quality to the dark.

More than that, you can't really say that Vader is on the Dark Side at all in RotJ. An EVIL person who is conscious that he is EVIL and does BAD things is not EVIL. But yet, he does those things, like protecting Palpatine with his life, even though in ESB he wanted to overthrow him together with Luke. I had a thought that maybe Vader didn't want Luke to give in his anger so he wouldn't kill Palpatine, but that's not very plausible - during the duel the only thing he does is goading Luke to join the Dark Side. And then gets his ass kicked.

In RotS, a different concept of the sides of the Force is born, but isn't fully fleshed out because of how many times the concept of the Force changed. And I've mentioned it somewhere, that light and dark is not good and evil (and power and destructivity) at their base, but selflessness and selfishness at their base (something that Lucas thought while creating two opposite Luke and Han characters in ANH, btw). And I actually dig this concept. I mean, can Palpatine be called evil? Sure, he wants total power over the galaxy (selfishness, basically :) ), but would the Empire be really EVIL? Granted, there are these Death Star thingies, but they appeared in ANH which was more as a straight-forward sci-fi fairy-tale adventure. But I digress. What I want to say, is that Anakin is acting totally selfishly in RotS. He said it himself, "I can't live without her", and that's selfishness. But, of course, he's doing it for a good cause, right? I mean, he, as any normal person becoming evil does not realise that he is becoming evil. From someone's point of view. Which leads to a question "if love is defacto selfish", but, uhm... that's totally another topic.

Now, before I digress even more and venture into the far reaches of my own mind, I'll better wrap this reply up, post it, and actually read it as a whole.

I disagree.  In ESB, Vader is "evil" (i.e., acting selfishly) in that he wants to get rid of the Emperor with Luke's help and control the galaxy.

You know, I didn't think of ESB Vader that way. Maybe because my opinion of ESB Vader WAS overshadowed by the fact that in ANH Vader was the apatomy of Evil. Lucas himself wrote the line "master of evil". He didn't have any goal but to destroy the Rebel Alliance. Well, and take revenge on Obi-Wan after he learned he was still alive. I wouldn't go as far as to call it selfish at the base (aside from Obi-Wan part, maybe). Just evil. BTW, interesting fact, if I remember correctly, Vader doesn't brag about THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE, just the Power of the Force, which he demonstrates by choking.

But I don't really agree on RotJ Vader. His goal could possibly remain the same as in ESB, but on the other hand, reluctance is written all over his face during the whole movie. Uhm... all over his mask... Whatever. During the first talk with the Emperor, for example, the talk with Luke on the landing platform, it's like Vader is constantly thinking 'am I doing the right thing?' (one of the possible real-life reasons is that Lucas, in his usual manner, didn't think about Vader returning from the Dark Side of the Force until he began working on RotJ itself)

I want to add that this reluctance I see doesn't work well in the terms of OT only, IMO. In the context with PT, it kinda works. I mean, Anakin pretty much got broken with no real goal to live. Betrayed (or 'betrayed') by everyone, he killed his wife (at least injured badly which then led to her death), no children, all what he was doing was in vain. So, naturally he'll be a pissed off machine. Especially pissed of on Obi-Wan who has left him there to die. And then, his son appears, there's some hope that reappears, some new meaning, which leads to Vader going back.

It works even better, in my opinion (I already mentioned that somewhere), if one is to leave in the movie the NEW 2004 DVD Emperor talk as Lucas has put in there, and delete any (two, to be exact, in the crawl and one line in the movie) mention of Vader searching for Skywalker, learning about him from Palpatine. But the last paragraph is fan-edit orientiered, kinda. But the new 2004 DVD scene doesn't make sense without the changes I've mentioned anyway, so Lucas should do it if he wants to keep it in.

EDIT: By the way, one of the things I don't like in RotJ is that Palpatine, the one that is actually interested in Luke taking Vader's place, makes everything to make that NOT happen. Even in a simple 'kill-that-guy-become-my-apprentince' sense. If he kept his mouth shut, Luke could have killed Vader on his own freakin' will.

Farlander said:

 An EVIL person who is conscious that he is EVIL and does BAD things is not EVIL.

 I would say an Evil person who knows he is evil and does BAD things is WAAAAAY worse than someone who does not know what he does is evil.

Farlander said:

What I want to say, is that Anakin is acting totally selfishly in RotS. He said it himself, "I can't live without her", and that's selfishness. But, of course, he's doing it for a good cause, right? I mean, he, as any normal person becoming evil does not realise that he is becoming evil. From someone's point of view. Which leads to a question "if love is defacto selfish", but, uhm... that's totally another topic.

 

 LOVE is not the problem. Anakin says it plainly. Jedi are encouraged to love. Pocessiveness is the problem. Greed is the problem. Selfishness so strong that you would kill a bunch of children to gain the power to go against the natural order of the univer (re: life and death) in order to keep what you want is the problem.

Wanting to have the power to do what you want for your own desires (in the Jedi philosophy there's nothing wrong with death) is not a "good cause."

Farlander said:

I mean, in OT, the Dark Side is basically Evil. Now, I want to point out that I'm a person which likes the point of view concept. Which was concieved in RotJ. But still, in the OT the Dark Side was basically being evil with little to no moral values at all, or any other goals other than "THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE", with the Light Side not being shown as so light, because, PT aside, Obi-Wan and Yoda told lies to Anakin to use him as a tool to kill Vader. Obi-Wan, even after Luke learned that Vader is his father, wanted the boy to kill Vader.But, you know. All for greater good, right? Yeah, the point of view was applied only to the light side, no redeeming quality to the dark.

 Yoda never lied to Luke. Obi did, but that could be explained as trying to spare the boys feelings, and since he died the next day, he never had a quiet moment to sit down and explain everything.

"A tool to kill Vader" is not at all how I see it. In fact, didn't Yoda try to encourage Luke not to rush off and fight Vader? And if they both thought that Vader was unsavable (as did Palpy and Vader himself) it doesn't mean they wanted him dead... only that they didn't see an alternative.

The "Point of view" speech I dont think was intended as a thesis on overwhelming moral relativism. Only on Obi trying to explain what he had lied about to Luke in the past and as an analogy that he (Obi) beleived that Vader was irredeemable.

 I would say an Evil person who knows he is evil and does BAD things is WAAAAAY worse than someone who does not know what he does is evil.

That depends on the situation. At least it's possible to reason with such a person.

Wanting to have the power to do what you want for your own desires (in the Jedi philosophy there's nothing wrong with death) is not a "good cause."

It's certainly a "good cause" if one puts it as "the power to save the ones you love". The fact that it transformed to a desire to do ANYTHING you want is another matter.

I remember when I was 7, that is even before knowing about Star Wars, I (after one rather unpleasant moment in my life) was sitting in my room thinking about a lot of things. One of them was - what makes me a bad person? I had a lot of questions, some of them on the if killing will make me a bad person topic. What if I'll kill to protect my family? I know the one I killed could have had a family too, you know. And so on and so on... Yeah, in my childhood I thought about things that I don't think any sane kid would.

"A tool to kill Vader" is not at all how I see it. In fact, didn't Yoda try to encourage Luke not to rush off and fight Vader? And if they both thought that Vader was unsavable (as did Palpy and Vader himself) it doesn't mean they wanted him dead... only that they didn't see an alternative.

The only problem is, all that doesn't make Luke less a tool. The reason Yoda tried to encourage Luke NOT to rush off is because he wasn't ready to, well, kill Vader.

And, about lying, there are many ways to lie to a person. Obi-Wan could lie about Luke's father a lot of ways. But he specifically said that it is Darth Vader who killed Luke's father, placing the desire for revenge (not the Jediest way to do at all) which would actually help their goal - kill Vader.

Farlander said:

Wanting to have the power to do what you want for your own desires (in the Jedi philosophy there's nothing wrong with death) is not a "good cause."

It's certainly a "good cause" if one puts it as "the power to save the ones you love". The fact that it transformed to a desire to do ANYTHING you want is another matter.

I remember when I was 7, that is even before knowing about Star Wars, I (after one rather unpleasant moment in my life) was sitting in my room thinking about a lot of things. One of them was - what makes me a bad person? I had a lot of questions, some of them on the if killing will make me a bad person topic. What if I'll kill to protect my family? I know the one I killed could have had a family too, you know. And so on and so on... Yeah, in my childhood I thought about things that I don't think any sane kid would.

If someone is attacking your family and you kill that person to defend them ("A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense...") is a very different situation than committing wanton murder so that you have the power over life and death. Rephrasing it doesn't change the underlying difference.

Luke loved his sister, but he didn't let LOVE lead to so much FEAR for losing her that he was filled with ANGER that lead to HATRED that lead to him murdering an unarmed and defenseless Vader in Palpy's throne room.

Yoda and Ben both encouraged Luke not to go to Cloud City because he wasn't ready, apparently either with enough skill or wisdom. But Luke left to save his friends (too afraid to lose them), not murder Vader.

In ROTJ when he goes off Yoda says his last trial is to FACE Vader. Not kill Vader, but FACE him. But Luke is a wiser Jedi than Ben, because he sees that Vader can be redeemed.

The only problem is, all that doesn't make Luke less a tool. The reason Yoda tried to encourage Luke NOT to rush off is because he wasn't ready to, well, kill Vader.

And, about lying, there are many ways to lie to a person. Obi-Wan could lie about Luke's father a lot of ways. But he specifically said that it is Darth Vader who killed Luke's father, placing the desire for revenge (not the Jediest way to do at all) which would actually help their goal - kill Vader.

Yoda's training of Luke, with it's Cave-test (where Luke fails by killing Vader) and constant talk about how violence isn't the answer ("Wars not make one great") ({Jedi use the Force} never for attack") doesn't seem to me like a training regime for a tool of vengeance. Counterproductive even to what you see as Yoda's goal, which is encourage Luke to murder Vader.

Jedi battle evil. Vader does evil. If a violent confrontation with Vader is a possible, even likely, result of Luke becoming a Jedi and fighting to restore peace and freedom to the galaxy (....) that still doesn't make him a "tool to kill Vader."

As ghosts at the end Ben and Yoda both seem pleased as peach that Luke managed to redeem Anakin. Not really in line if they'd spent the last two decades plotting his murder.

Eh, never mind.

I like the OT version of turning to the dark side.  The lines were a little more blurred.  In fact, Darth Vader was always supposed to be in this grey area of the dark side since Luke could see good in him and so did the audience since Vader never seemed to really wanted to kill his son.  By watching Luke and the Emperor interact, we sort of learn by killing out of anger, you would be maybe turning to the dark side.  Nothing is for sure because it seems alot of factors come into play such as the strength of character.

the PT makes turning to the dark side much more typical and obvious. do evil and act like a whiny bitch and obviously, thats dark side.  they made anakin turn into pure evil which kills the idea that there may still be some good in him.  yea he showed some concern for Padme but it felt empty (as did that whole relationship in the first place).  turning to the dark side here was definitely believable, but boring to watch, predictable and melodramatic. 

by the way, i think both OT and PT needed to say more about the benefits of staying in the light side... or the disadvantages of the dark side (besides acting like a douche)

another thought:
in the OT, if Luke killed Vader (out of anger) that would have been the shocking catalyst towards his journey to the dark side.  it was climactic.

in the PT, anakin killed a ton of tuskin raiders. ok.  then kills dooku. ok.  then kills jedi and kids. ok.  at which point was i supposed to feel suspense?  there was no suspense to anakins turn to the dark side.  maybe i was supposed to feel suspense when preteen anakin gave stink eye to mace windu in ep. 1.

That's why I proposed as a fan-edit idea that Anakin blacks out during those moments (almost like he has multiple personality disorder) and only remembers them when he has killed Mace.

He has nightmares where he killed the Sandpeople and maybe a whole bunch of other people too but he shrugs them off as bad dreams but when he kills Dooku unarmed he starts to think maybe there is more to the dreams.

After killing Mace he realises with horror that these weren't nightmares but repressed memories and that drives him over the edge.

Not how I imagined the fall of Anakin pre PT but possibly the only way you can get any sympathy for the character out of the existing footage.

It would mean dropping his confession to Padme in AOTC but that never made sense anyway.

She is dragging her heels not sure about Anakin until he confesses to killing unarmed women and children?????

What on Earth was George thinking?

She's into bad boys who murder.

Even the murder part?

I don't think my wife wants me dating a murderer.

while watching ROTJ again it came to me that a wonderful  catalyst for Anakin turning to the dark side is him getting so seriously injured, disfigured, requiring cybernetic modifications and being disabled in that he has to wear a sealed suit. that would mess you up mentally. what could he do? he can longer be intimate with his wife. he's more machine now than man. but there's Palpatine there giving him hope.

so in my mind Anakin wasn't perfectly fine up until the Obi-Wan duel. it was in some other duel or several others that he got that way. he probably wore a prototype Vader suit without the classic Sith style influences. that was added later after he turned.