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To Folks in the European Union — Page 2

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Originally posted by: Shimraa
your definition of free trade is not the one that is in effect. the one that is in effect stats that NO tarrifs shoul dbe in place when moving goods over the borders, if you want to argue about it the by all means good ahead, but these are the facts, the amercan gov threw an unfar level of taxes on canadian soft wood lumber. to the point where ist being taxed over 30% now that is unfair. Canada appealed to the WTO which ruled in canada's favour, NAFTA is also doing its own investigation and is likely to rule in favour of canada. If your definition was correct both of these international bodies would not be ruling in canada's favor.


and find me a source for your definition of free trade i am very curious to see one that states that a government can put what ever tax they want on product coming in to the country.


What do you think we did prior to WTO and NAFTA? Without them, governments are free to do as they wish in regards to taxes and tarrifs. WTO and NAFTA are relatively new entities. The US should NEVER have been a signatory to these agreements, along with GAAT.

I'm not debating today's rules are being violated. I'm arguing that we are not in a true free trade economy. A governing body that regulates how it's members trade is by definition NOT a free trade entity. There is no absence of rules or regulations in the WTO.

Defining free trade as an absence of rules and then espousing the virtues of WTO and NAFTA are mutually exclusive.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
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Originally posted by: JediSage
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
here is the definition of free trade.



the first 4 definitions all explicitly say that it is either a suvere reduction or elimiation of tarrifs and artifical barriers. free trade is what Corperations like nike use to get there products into the country from there factories in poor LEDCs.

i will again restate it, the tariffs that the US put on canadian soft wood lumber was illegal under a Free trade system.

what you are discribeing is regular trade.


There are many definitions that can be gotten from a lot of different sources. Many people, myself included, will tell you that the "free trade" definitions and laws in use today are veiled socialist redistribution mechanisms. The US is bleeding wealth and jobs because of trade deficits and "free trade". It's a fact.

When has there ever been a society that didn't tax goods? While tarrifs may be a violation of the spirit of Laizze Faire, they've always been a tool to protect native suppliers. In the US, the power to impose tarrifs is provided for in our founding documents.

Do foreign countries have a "right" to dump cheap goods on the markets of others, putting pressure on their economy vis a vis unemployment and trade deficits without them being able to protect themselves? "Free trade" globalists will say that the standard of living will become more "equitable" in the countries being affected, eg: socialism.

And, let me restate: If Canada doesn't like the deal she's getting, she shouldn't accept the terms and should go elsewhere to import/export her goods.


when has the world ever been connected so closely that i can chat with a person in england in real time.the world is changing and the fact is that the globalization is happening there is nothing that can be done to stop it. IT is also making the world a better place, thing about it the consumers in amerca no long have to pay such high prices for there products. by imposing taxes he US may be saving some jobs but it is creating huge amounts of inflation. and tell me looking at this from a global POV as a citizen of earth doesnt it make more sense for the areas of the world that produce certain goods in large amounts to be able to sell there stuff on a global market so that the places that dont produce the product dont have to. it all comes down to integrating the world together. and as for jobs and such you shouldnt be complaining about free trade you shoul dbe complaining about transnation organisations they are the primary distructors of jobs in america.

here read the it does a much better job of explain it then a post i wrote in five mins

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1429


As always the globalist battle cry of the evil corporations destroying everyone's way of life. The vast majority of employers in the US are small businesses, defined as 250 employees or less. Hardly trans-national corporations. The reason jobs are leaving the US is because the playing field is not level in terms of the labor market. So, instead of making things better in the cheaper paying countries, the answer always seems to be to lower the standard of living in the US.

Inflation is the direct result of a currency not tied to a supply of precious metals. It's been the same since the beginning of time, not because of tarrifs on imports.

And again, I'm just curious to know the source of the right to depress another country's economy by freely dumping products into their market?

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there was no free trade before the WTO. thats what makes today different from back then.and the introduction of free trade has made the world a better place, look at euope, they are the best example of what can happen when countries worktogether to better there people. yes some bad things happen but overall the qualitiy of life is better.
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ho ho whats this an american complaining about other countries depressing his economy, you should read some case studies on the things america has done to some of the latin american countries in the form of cash crops and so on.

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The reason jobs are leaving the US is because the playing field is not level in terms of the labor market. So, instead of making things better in the cheaper paying countries, the answer always seems to be to lower the standard of living in the US.


exactly and who are responsibe for this, TNCs. your right the large majority of jobs are privete, the reason for this is TNCs moving there factories, the movement of factories lowers the employment rate, no employment, no income, lowers the standard of living. so its the TNCs that are doing it, AND its also the TNCs that are keeping the standards low in the lower paying countries.

did you know that corperations like nike will pay there workers enough money so at the end of a year the workers will make enough money to feed themselves but will make just under the amount to live. by live i mean eat, have a home. so families will stay alive but will remain in poverty.

anyway this is a far cry to what i was taking about before the idea of free trade. and the soft wood lumber things. known of the stuff on TNCs or the importing of jobs applies there cause canada isnt a poor country, we actually rank highier the the US in quality of living.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
ho ho whats this an american complaining about other countries depressing his economy, you should read some case studies on the things america has done to some of the latin american countries in the form of cash crops and so on.

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The reason jobs are leaving the US is because the playing field is not level in terms of the labor market. So, instead of making things better in the cheaper paying countries, the answer always seems to be to lower the standard of living in the US.


exactly and who are responsibe for this, TNCs. your right the large majority of jobs are privete, the reason for this is TNCs moving there factories, the movement of factories lowers the employment rate, no employment, no income, lowers the standard of living. so its the TNCs that are doing it, AND its also the TNCs that are keeping the standards low in the lower paying countries.

did you know that corperations like nike will pay there workers enough money so at the end of a year the workers will make enough money to feed themselves but will make just under the amount to live. by live i mean eat, have a home. so families will stay alive but will remain in poverty.

anyway this is a far cry to what i was taking about before the idea of free trade. and the soft wood lumber things. known of the stuff on TNCs or the importing of jobs applies there cause canada isnt a poor country, we actually rank highier the the US in quality of living.


I'd be interested to know how you define quality of living (how many folks living on the border come to the US for medical care, for example?). However, you raise some interesting points. You should take into consideration that at least in the US, 1/2 the cost of the goods made/sold here are made up of taxes, mandatory health insurance, regulatory costs, etc; That's not a level playing field, and the associated cost is NOT applied by the companies...they're leveled by the government.
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your living in a country that spends 700 billion dollars to blow up iraq, dint you thing your gov could take some of that money and put it into places where it would help the people. also canada has free health care, the only people that go to the states for care are people that need specialists.

i am not farmiliar with the stuff in the second part of your last post, since i dont live in america could you please enlighten me. what you mean that half of the price of stuff goes into those things you listed.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
your living in a country that spends 700 billion dollars to blow up iraq, dint you thing your gov could take some of that money and put it into places where it would help the people. also canada has free health care, the only people that go to the states for care are people that need specialists.

i am not farmiliar with the stuff in the second part of your last post, since i dont live in america could you please enlighten me. what you mean that half of the price of stuff goes into those things you listed.


The economic issues that exist in the US go far beyond Iraq. They've been in existence ever since the creation of a central private bank, then broke away from a backed currency. An "elastic" money supply is the reason the US can do the things it does, however there are certain DIRE consequences.

You've not heard of people in Canada having to go to the US because they've been caught up in the beauracracy? I've heard it takes 6 months on average to get an MRI in Canada.

Most US companies have to provide health benefits to their employees, the costs are going up 16% on average this year alone. The way it usually works is the employer pays for the lion's share of the costs, with some of the burden being passed to the employees. I pay about $500 a month US out of my own pocket to provide health and dental insurance for my family of 4. In the US, that's a PHENOMENAL program. At another company I worked at, I paid $500 per paycheck. The reason for the runaway costs are many-fold, not the least of which is the lawyers and out of control malpractice suits.

On top of this the employers have to pay property taxes on just about anything it owns, income taxes, unemployment taxes. They're easily sued by current/ex employees for any number of bullsh#t reasons, same goes for people who use their products (hot coffee lady, anyone?), the lawyers they employ have to be paid.

Then you have the daily operational expenses, like paying suppliers, gasoline, maintenance, electricity, heating and water bills. Throw in Worker's Comp (a mandatory insurance program for employees who get hurt on the job which is frequently abused by the employees) and Union problems, and you can start to see where I'm coming from. Many of the countries these employers are going to don't have these types of concerns.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-labor (my grandfather was a union coal miner, my father and brother also heavily involved in unions). I believe a worker has a right to a living wage and quality health care. But, as long as these types of things are abused, either by employees, lawyers, customers, it ain't gonna happen. How much more pressure does cheap foreign competition create? Now you can see why the playing field is not level. This is why the US and all other countries must have the right to exercise their tarrif power...to mitigate SOME of the pain of an almost non-paid foreign labor market.
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You've not heard of people in Canada having to go to the US because they've been caught up in the beauracracy? I've heard it takes 6 months on average to get an MRI in Canada.


yes, things like this are a problem. but MRIs are used in special circumstances, one of the problems of canadian health care at the moment is that since it is free, you get alot more people to the limited number of MRI machines. so its first come first serve, in the US since there are so many healthcare clinics you do not have as high a demand because of the price of getting an MRI. so in the US the service goes to those with money or insurance, in canada is goes to those that need it in the order they ask. the same is the case with transplants and so on, it is an inherited problem with public health care. hopefully the government of canada will losin the grip it has on private healthcare, if it does this you'll get more people using the private services cuase those with money will not want to wait, but then you you'll get doctors opening up there own clinics everywhere, so there needs to bea careful balance. its complicated.


ok so i understand what your saying, your talkign about unions, personally i greatly dislike unions because PEOPLE are greedy. but still jedi even with your arguement the fault doesnt go to the workers over seas nor to the corperations, it goes to the greedy people that believe they should get more money then there jobs worth. it goes to the unions. it is often said the we will wieve they threads of our own undoing, the people that work in unions and abuse the system fall under that. In BC our province has suffered greatly at the hands of unions. can you beleive this, there is a shortage of nurses right now in the province, and so you get the nurses unions taking advangate of that, under the last provincal government we had, the union went on strike numerious times. and now there are nurses who can get paid up to $40 an hour. that means if this nurse works full time they are getting 83 000 a year. that would put them in the highest tax bracket for what a job that takes 2 years of university education. its a discrace. fortunately the new provincal government has gotten things back in hand.

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Originally posted by: Shimraa
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You've not heard of people in Canada having to go to the US because they've been caught up in the beauracracy? I've heard it takes 6 months on average to get an MRI in Canada.


yes, things like this are a problem. but MRIs are used in special circumstances, one of the problems of canadian health care at the moment is that since it is free, you get alot more people to the limited number of MRI machines. so its first come first serve, in the US since there are so many healthcare clinics you do not have as high a demand because of the price of getting an MRI. so in the US the service goes to those with money or insurance, in canada is goes to those that need it in the order they ask. the same is the case with transplants and so on, it is an inherited problem with public health care. hopefully the government of canada will losin the grip it has on private healthcare, if it does this you'll get more people using the private services cuase those with money will not want to wait, but then you you'll get doctors opening up there own clinics everywhere, so there needs to bea careful balance. its complicated.


ok so i understand what your saying, your talkign about unions, personally i greatly dislike unions because PEOPLE are greedy. but still jedi even with your arguement the fault doesnt go to the workers over seas nor to the corperations, it goes to the greedy people that believe they should get more money then there jobs worth. it goes to the unions. it is often said the we will wieve they threads of our own undoing, the people that work in unions and abuse the system fall under that. In BC our province has suffered greatly at the hands of unions. can you beleive this, there is a shortage of nurses right now in the province, and so you get the nurses unions taking advangate of that, under the last provincal government we had, the union went on strike numerious times. and now there are nurses who can get paid up to $40 an hour. that means if this nurse works full time they are getting 83 000 a year. that would put them in the highest tax bracket for what a job that takes 2 years of university education. its a discrace. fortunately the new provincal government has gotten things back in hand.



Well, an MRI, at least in the US, is not really considered a specialty test. It's fairly common. I had one this past December, and had multiples back in 1990-91. It's scary that it takes that long in Canada. Part of the problem with socialized medicine is that people take advantage of it too much. There's a town in Florida (unfortunately I can't remember which one) that has "free" healthcare. Many of the senior citizens actually make day trips just to see the doctor, which results in people who really need to see the doc having to wait. Not good. Some of the politicians here claim that because 40 million people (out of almost 300 million) are "underinsured" in the US that we need universal healthcare, which would be disasterous. They need to protect the docs from malpractice, do something about the burden that illegal aliens are putting on the system, and lower their operational costs. That's what needs to be done, while taking care of the people who don't have insurance. Nobody in the US or Canada or anywhere else should be denied healthcare or medicines.

No, I don't blame the people in the other countries for their plight. However, I don't think another country's economy should suffer because of it either. We can't help the third world by creating more third world countries. God...I am depressed. The world is so messed up, you know?
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Well, an MRI, at least in the US, is not really considered a specialty test. It's fairly common. I had one this past December, and had multiples back in 1990-91. It's scary that it takes that long in Canada. Part of the problem with socialized medicine is that people take advantage of it too much. There's a town in Florida (unfortunately I can't remember which one) that has "free" healthcare. Many of the senior citizens actually make day trips just to see the doctor, which results in people who really need to see the doc having to wait. Not good. Some of the politicians here claim that because 40 million people (out of almost 300 million) are "underinsured" in the US that we need universal healthcare, which would be disasterous. They need to protect the docs from malpractice, do something about the burden that illegal aliens are putting on the system, and lower their operational costs. That's what needs to be done, while taking care of the people who don't have insurance. Nobody in the US or Canada or anywhere else should be denied healthcare or medicines.


you absoluty correct, see canada can afford to have healthcare cause there is only 30million of us, see but that the thing, even our system is not perfect, there are way too many people exploiting it thats the thing. people that use it to get hip replacements an such. i love how healthcare is free in canada but it seriously needs and overhale to fix some of the problems. but still its better that everyone have it, no just those that have jobs and such.

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No, I don't blame the people in the other countries for their plight. However, I don't think another country's economy should suffer because of it either. We can't help the third world by creating more third world countries. God...I am depressed. The world is so messed up, you know?


i agree with you 100%. see thats the thing though, one of the reason america is so hated in the world is that american companies and in many case the american government have done things to better america and in the process distroyed the economies in other countries. The world is messed up, but see the thing is that with free trade and globalization and uniting the world economies these 3rd worlds countries can get a leg up and become MEDC rather then LEDCs. you know india is the best example of this. through all of the programs introduced by the UN indian has gone from a country that was literally died, to the point where it pretty much is a 1st world contry, did you know that the population there is over a billion yet the literacy rate is over 50% overall, and if you go to some provinces its 90-100%. that means that there are more people in india that can read and write then there is in america, canada, and britain combined. give or take a few million. thats shocking eh. and all they needed was a leg up. so programs like free trade and and the idea of globalization are the things that are going to fix the country. yes some places are going to loss some of the privages but overall its for the greater good. if one person in amerca gets a little hungry due to 20 or 30 people getting jobs in a 3rd world country then so be it. same goes for a canadian and and all other people in the western world.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
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Well, an MRI, at least in the US, is not really considered a specialty test. It's fairly common. I had one this past December, and had multiples back in 1990-91. It's scary that it takes that long in Canada. Part of the problem with socialized medicine is that people take advantage of it too much. There's a town in Florida (unfortunately I can't remember which one) that has "free" healthcare. Many of the senior citizens actually make day trips just to see the doctor, which results in people who really need to see the doc having to wait. Not good. Some of the politicians here claim that because 40 million people (out of almost 300 million) are "underinsured" in the US that we need universal healthcare, which would be disasterous. They need to protect the docs from malpractice, do something about the burden that illegal aliens are putting on the system, and lower their operational costs. That's what needs to be done, while taking care of the people who don't have insurance. Nobody in the US or Canada or anywhere else should be denied healthcare or medicines.


you absoluty correct, see canada can afford to have healthcare cause there is only 30million of us, see but that the thing, even our system is not perfect, there are way too many people exploiting it thats the thing. people that use it to get hip replacements an such. i love how healthcare is free in canada but it seriously needs and overhale to fix some of the problems. but still its better that everyone have it, no just those that have jobs and such.

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No, I don't blame the people in the other countries for their plight. However, I don't think another country's economy should suffer because of it either. We can't help the third world by creating more third world countries. God...I am depressed. The world is so messed up, you know?


i agree with you 100%. see thats the thing though, one of the reason america is so hated in the world is that american companies and in many case the american government have done things to better america and in the process distroyed the economies in other countries. The world is messed up, but see the thing is that with free trade and globalization and uniting the world economies these 3rd worlds countries can get a leg up and become MEDC rather then LEDCs. you know india is the best example of this. through all of the programs introduced by the UN indian has gone from a country that was literally died, to the point where it pretty much is a 1st world contry, did you know that the population there is over a billion yet the literacy rate is over 50% overall, and if you go to some provinces its 90-100%. that means that there are more people in india that can read and write then there is in america, canada, and britain combined. give or take a few million. thats shocking eh. and all they needed was a leg up. so programs like free trade and and the idea of globalization are the things that are going to fix the country. yes some places are going to loss some of the privages but overall its for the greater good. if one person in amerca gets a little hungry due to 20 or 30 people getting jobs in a 3rd world country then so be it. same goes for a canadian and and all other people in the western world.



Well, I was onboard with you until that last comment. I've heard things like this before. I had someone I worked with who always espoused leftist dogma like this...he actually said one time that due to the population "problems" on the planet that we needed a "massive die-off". In response I said to him I'm sure he'd be the first to volunteer when the suicide booths opened up. So, that's how I'll leave this...will you give up your lively-hood and "get a little hungry" for the 20-30 people" to get a job? I think it's very noble of you to make that decision for everyone else, but I'll pass thank you. I'll squeek out my lower-middle class living knowing that it doesn't make me an evil person to want to keep my job and feed my family the best that I can give them.
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i would gladly do what i said. however its just not going to be the case for me since the career i am going for wil probably make me rich. i'm still going to give large amount of money to charities and such thou. as bad as it is your friend is write, if al of sudden half the worlds population dropped of the planet. then earth would be alot healthier. its going to happen thou. you even heard of tommis malthuse(sp) he was one of the most brillent minds when it came to human geography, basically he said that whenever a population grows bigger then the envronment can support 3 things happen to causebring it back down. war, plague, or famine. its a very pesimistic veiw but the true this we are reaching the levels where the earth can no longer support. your right though it is a very leftist veiw. if everyone just got along things wuld be better.

and thats just my personal opinion its your right and previledge not to agree with me and that fine, if every one agreed with everyone, we wouldnt get anywhere. so keep to your own opinions, dont let other people change them on a wim. this was a good discussion i learned alot thanks man.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
i would gladly do what i said. however its just not going to be the case for me since the career i am going for wil probably make me rich. i'm still going to give large amount of money to charities and such thou. as bad as it is your friend is write, if al of sudden half the worlds population dropped of the planet. then earth would be alot healthier. its going to happen thou. you even heard of tommis malthuse(sp) he was one of the most brillent minds when it came to human geography, basically he said that whenever a population grows bigger then the envronment can support 3 things happen to causebring it back down. war, plague, or famine. its a very pesimistic veiw but the true this we are reaching the levels where the earth can no longer support. your right though it is a very leftist veiw. if everyone just got along things wuld be better.

and thats just my personal opinion its your right and previledge not to agree with me and that fine, if every one agreed with everyone, we wouldnt get anywhere. so keep to your own opinions, dont let other people change them on a wim. this was a good discussion i learned alot thanks man.


Malthus's disciples have been awaiting the population apocolypse since he wrote that tripe. I once bought into it, then I saw it for the garbage it was: another ideological weapon in the social planner's arsenal with almost no basis in fact.

I'm glad you're on a successful course. I myself am a computer network admin, which up until India came into the picture was pretty much one of the most lucrative positions on the planet. At which point thousands of jobs in the western world were lost. But hey, as long as everyone else made out, that's ok.

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i am indian. and the computer business is exactly what taht country need. also there is a reason bill gates has takin his jobs there its cause on the large majority the best workers that you can get in the world come from india, they are extremely honest to the point where they and also they are extremely hard working, more so then the large majority of workers in the western world, that includes myself.

as for malthose, he didnt factor one thing into is theory and that is that food resevres and resources on the whole would increase as the population increased. and so he theory isnt garbage, we jsut havent reached the point where the population becomes bigger then what hta planet can sustain. thats still along way off but still that doesnt mean we should keep going the way we are.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
i am indian. and the computer business is exactly what taht country need. also there is a reason bill gates has takin his jobs there its cause on the large majority the best workers that you can get in the world come from india, they are extremely honest to the point where they and also they are extremely hard working, more so then the large majority of workers in the western world, that includes myself.

as for malthose, he didnt factor one thing into is theory and that is that food resevres and resources on the whole would increase as the population increased. and so he theory isnt garbage, we jsut havent reached the point where the population becomes bigger then what hta planet can sustain. thats still along way off but still that doesnt mean we should keep going the way we are.


Food is not a finite resource. It can be grown, replanted, recreated, etc. This is being done now, or else Malthus's doomsday scenario would have come true already.

And, yes, the people in India are hardworking and honest. However, the fact is that MANY American jobs are being lost to India (I was laid off in 2003 from a computer position...I made it to the final 10 out of 85 people) and the H1-B visa program in America is a disaster for our workers, with the usual excuse being that there aren't enough trained Americans to take the jobs, or the jobs are too menial. This is patent nonsense, and as I stated previously, if the playing field were leveled, via a global minimum wage for instance (which would never fly without a global currency) then the west will continue to bleed. Unless you're going for an advanced degree like a Master's or Ph.D (preferred) you may be in for a surprise in the computing industry. I've been in the field for over 10 years, and I've got a good idea of where it's heading.

Check out this site if you'd like some more info on computer labor issues:

WashTech
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"At 448 pages, the proposed EU constitution is longer than the telephone directories in most big cities. It is more of a Socialist manifesto than a constitution. ... But the French voted against the EU constitution because it wasn't socialist enough. They feared the free-market ideas prevalent in Eastern Europe could threaten their 35-hour workweeks, six weeks of annual vacation, and heavy subsidies for agriculture and inefficient industries. ... It isn't often we owe the French a round of applause. They deserve a big hand now, even though they did the right thing for the wrong reasons." --Jack Kelly
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food is finite because of two reasons, one we do not have infinite land to grow infinit food. and two if land is over used it becomes dead and cannot be used any more. pardon me though you are correct we do have enough land to support alot more people. the grain feilds of the midwest for example, it has been estimated that if these lands were used to there full capsity that they along could provide enough food for 20 billion people over a number of years without going bad.

i am not going into the computer industry, i made that decision along time ago because i saw that the market was going to be flooded with workers.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
food is finite because of two reasons, one we do not have infinite land to grow infinit food. and two if land is over used it becomes dead and cannot be used any more. pardon me though you are correct we do have enough land to support alot more people. the grain feilds of the midwest for example, it has been estimated that if these lands were used to there full capsity that they along could provide enough food for 20 billion people over a number of years without going bad.

i am not going into the computer industry, i made that decision along time ago because i saw that the market was going to be flooded with workers.


Nor is the size of the population infinite, or the rate of growth.

So, what are you going into? I thought you said above that you're getting into computers...I hope you're not getting into medicine in Canada...then you're at the mercy of the system. You get paid what the government pays you.

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population growth is exponetial, the growth of resources is linear.

lol actually i going into medical research so i might not even be staying in canada, i might be an american soon enough.