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Thoughts of Han and R2D2

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1) Han Solo

I had a thought about the whole "Han-Shoots-First" thing. I gotta wonder if George Lucas "identifies" with Han in any way, because that would certainly explain why he doesn't let Han kill people except in self-defense, yet isn't so keen on the other heroes following this role.

Think about it--Han is a rogue, doing his own thing, working outside established systems. George Lucas, at first, was something of a maverick too. As time went on, both stabilized and joined a specific order.

Of course, then George Lucas watches the OT, sees Han shooting Greedo, and is disturbed at the implications...

2) R2D2

Another thought I had just now.. is it just me, or is R2D2 a Mary Sue?

I mean, think about it--R2 is always right. Not "mostly" right, ALWAYS. That droid ALWAYS has the right answer, ALWAYS knows just what to do. Highlighting this is that he's joined by a bumbling companion who never (or rarely ever) agrees with him, and out of all five Star Wars movies, he's only ever made one mistake--walking into Jawa territory and getting stunned in A New Hope.

And, of course, it gets worse in the prequels, where R2D2 not only saves the day but gets formally thanked for it (not to mention he suddenly has jets).

Who wants to bet that R2 could've beaten Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel? (Hey, if the Energizer Bunny can do it...)
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Interesting thoughts.

Most definitely agree on the Han/Lucas thing even though GL has always publicly stated that Luke is the character most based on himself.

R2 made another mistake in one of the films when he put his jack into an electrical socket, admittedly it was at C-3PO's behest.

Actually he made a mistake when he tried to navigate the swamp on Dagobah and got swallowed and spat out by the big swamp-creature. Does anyone know why R2 didn't just use his jets that he now apparently has?

Come to think of it on Endor R2 uses his saw to free them from the Ewok-made Wookie-trap and the group all fall to the ground, again including R2 who could have just flown to the ground.

Silly little droid forgot that one day the Master would make it so that he always had booster jets in his legs.

Also doesn't R2 keep bumping into walls throughout the OT films?
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Lucas changed Han shooting first because he's old, fat and tired, and his views on life have changed greatly since 1977.

Just watch the horrific prequels to see how far removed Lucas is from his younger, more creative self.
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I never thought about the Han/Lucas thing all that much. It still mystifies me that Lucas changed the Greedo scene and it still looks bad.

As for R2, well I have a soft spot the little droid and apparantly so does Lucas. Odd considering that R2 has given him nothing but problems since day one.
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I probably worded my previous statement incorrectly. Lucas has a soft spot for the character but the mechanical R2 used while filming has always been a problem.

Did that make better sense?
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Originally posted by: R2
I probably worded my previous statement incorrectly. Lucas has a soft spot for the character but the mechanical R2 used while filming has always been a problem.

Did that make better sense?


R2 will be entirely digital during Revenge of the Sith.
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And your point being.....what?
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Originally posted by: Regicidal_Maniac
Actually he made a mistake when he tried to navigate the swamp on Dagobah and got swallowed and spat out by the big swamp-creature. Does anyone know why R2 didn't just use his jets that he now apparently has?


I dont really see this as a mistake, more of bad luck. Unless you mean when he started going the wrong way and luke pointed him in the direction, but getting eating isnt really a mistake on his part.

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Come to think of it on Endor R2 uses his saw to free them from the Ewok-made Wookie-trap and the group all fall to the ground, again including R2 who could have just flown to the ground.


If he used his jets he would have burned his companions, so he chose to just fall because he knew that he wouldnt be damaged by that small of a fall (i mean he's got to be built fairly rugged look at all he's been through, and he's designed to go into the back of a starship

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Silly little droid forgot that one day the Master would make it so that he always had booster jets in his legs.


That's simple, due to a rift in space time the prequals actually happened after the OT so he was upgraded.

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Also doesn't R2 keep bumping into walls throughout the OT films?


I dont remember this, he might have run into a wall or some other obstical but im not sure, i could be mistaken. I think it was more that he ran into things while they were filming it caus as R2 said he caused a lot of problems during production by not working properly

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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its jimbo, who knows...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Originally posted by: R2
And your point being.....what?


That people won't have to waste time on getting some shitty puppet to work. Now we can do it in the computer. The miricles of modern technology.
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Um...ok, but R2 isn't a puppet. He's a robot. Yoda was a puppet.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: R2
And your point being.....what?


That people won't have to waste time on getting some shitty puppet to work. Now we can do it in the computer. The miricles of modern technology.


The miracles of modern technology have also advanced electronics and robots significantly enough that it would be easy to have an actual R2-D2 robot that does what they want it to. Yeah it would probably be expensive but a) im sure thats not really an issue for Lucas and b) how cool would an actual R2 be

(by actual R2 i dont mean a self aware droid with full AI but a working robot that is either controlled by a given computer instruction to perform a task or by radio control)

I think Lucas just has a hard-on for anything CGI and tries to use it where ever possible even if its not the best choice for a given situation. Im supprised he hired any actors at all and didnt do that prequals all CGI like Final Fantasy. Personally I feel that making R2 CGI will detract a lot from the characters personality

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon

Personally I feel that making R2 CGI will detract a lot from the characters personality.


I totally agree.

Keeping The Star Wars Hoiliday Special alive. Once person at a time. Stir, stir, whip, whip, stir, beat, beat.
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon<br
The miracles of modern technology have also advanced electronics and robots significantly enough that it would be easy to have an actual R2-D2 robot that does what they want it to. Yeah it would probably be expensive but a) im sure thats not really an issue for Lucas and b) how cool would an actual R2 be

(by actual R2 i dont mean a self aware droid with full AI but a working robot that is either controlled by a given computer instruction to perform a task or by radio control)

I think Lucas just has a hard-on for anything CGI and tries to use it where ever possible even if its not the best choice for a given situation. Im supprised he hired any actors at all and didnt do that prequals all CGI like Final Fantasy. Personally I feel that making R2 CGI will detract a lot from the characters personality

-Darth Simon


Digital effects look better. But it would be impossible with modern technology to create a digital Natalie Portman that can match the perfection of the real thing. Many things could not have been done with traditional effects. Yoda fighting for example try that with a puppet.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon<br
The miracles of modern technology have also advanced electronics and robots significantly enough that it would be easy to have an actual R2-D2 robot that does what they want it to. Yeah it would probably be expensive but a) im sure thats not really an issue for Lucas and b) how cool would an actual R2 be

(by actual R2 i dont mean a self aware droid with full AI but a working robot that is either controlled by a given computer instruction to perform a task or by radio control)

I think Lucas just has a hard-on for anything CGI and tries to use it where ever possible even if its not the best choice for a given situation. Im supprised he hired any actors at all and didnt do that prequals all CGI like Final Fantasy. Personally I feel that making R2 CGI will detract a lot from the characters personality

-Darth Simon


Digital effects look better. But it would be impossible with modern technology to create a digital Natalie Portman that can match the perfection of the real thing. Many things could not have been done with traditional effects. Yoda fighting for example try that with a puppet.



Yup, gotta love those digital effects, they look great. I mean we have Jabba in Episode IV, we have the whole Han's manipulation of space time to avoid greedo's laser blast.

They dont always look better, they dont always work for a scene, they dont always work for forming that emotional bond between viewer and the movie/character.

You honestly dont think that yoda fighting could have been done with the puppet? haha, I mean most of the time he was jus a green blur with a lightsaber anyway. And i really had no objection with making yoda a cgi character in the AOTC anyway. And I thought that fight was pretty bad ass...BUT, at the same time, I always looked at yoda as the powerful old sage. Like (forgive the bad analogy) Mr Miagi from the karate kid. He can just stand in one spot during a fight unwavering and lay down the law. I kind of agree with a post someone made in some other thread (dont know the thread or who said it) that yoda shouldnt have even needed to pull his lightsaber on the likes of dooku.

And a little off topic, but is it just me or did Yoda struggle just a bit too much with the falling pillar for someone as strong in the force as he is...i mean after all 'Size matters not'

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Darth Simon you are right. Yoda did strain too much with that falling pillar. He didn't strain at all when he lifted Luke's X-wing out of the swamp. That ship had to weigh more than that pillar did.
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Originally posted by: R2
Darth Simon you are right. Yoda did strain too much with that falling pillar. He didn't strain at all when he lifted Luke's X-wing out of the swamp. That ship had to weigh more than that pillar did.


Ok true but the scene is still cool as hell.
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The Yoda fight sucked. And so do CGI effects. I hate them, they never look realistic (unless you've never left your house). They look so fake that you can tell just by looking when a character or scene is CGI rendered.

One person once said "I'm glad Jaws was made in the 1970s, because if it was made today, the shark would've been CGI and looked like a cartoon character, rather than being a convincing model of a real shark."
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True.

No matter how long the very talented CGI artists spend on rendering, shading, lighting, texture-mapping, articulation and so on the best it can look like is good CGI.

The best CGI is no match for a real prop, set, model, costume or puppet.

CGI when used to replicate things that can be done using traditional methods always jars the eye and the film suffers for it. Good CGI should be invisible, like the augmentation of an explosion, or a liquid metal creature (which I still believe could be achieved similarly by Rob Bottin using practical effects and editing).

Good quote re Jaws. There's another quote I read in a book on Jaws and cinema theory and it goes something like; If Jaws had been made today modern writers and film makers would have felt compelled to put a fiesty female reporter on the boat to aid exposition for today's audiences and to break up the three guys on a boat dynamic. Something like that.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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I too, thought Yoda strained too much with the pillar. The reason being, of course, so Dooku could escape. Had Yoda realised he could just yank Ben and Anakin to safety, Dooku wouldn't have made it to his ship. A neccesary plot-hole. Also, jimbo, models own CGI. Always have, always will. You forget that all the CGI ships in the prequels were sourced from models. They build the model, scan it, photograph it, and then manipulate it in the PC. Check out Star Trek Insurrection. They skipped the models. It shows just how shitty CGI by itself is. I'd rather have a realistic model fly in a straight line, than a over saturated, fake looking CGI image doing barrel rolls anyday. Not to mention that traditional effects are much more interesting to study.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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how could a cgi R2-d2 look more realistic than an actual on-set physical R2? did you not see the droids in the droid factory scene? it was like watching the old droids cartoon series.
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is it definite that R2D2 will be CGI?
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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I hope not. CGI R2-D2 is going to look just sh**y. Robot R2-D2 looks much more realistic. Use a robot to play a robot. Why in the name of h*** do you need to do R2 in CGI for anyway? Lucas is nuts.
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I've mentioned this before, but Lucas did mention, in Time magazine, using a CGI Anakin, a la Jar Jar. He thought the choice would be so daring the fans would "just love it."

Although I like Hayden, I know that those who don't (i.e. everybody else) can now be thankful for him.
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