Theater Performance Preservations — Page 8

none, you might want to add this to your initial post. Morgands1 has an audio recording of the 70mm version of Empire Strikes Back, so finally we have an accurate audio reference source.

ESB_TP Notes

Completely neeto, to be able to look back at how this film once was.  Many sequences look fantastic, the Bespin escape of Leia/Chewie/Lando - R2 plugging-in is clear and vibrant, and even the video shifts can be entertaining.  
(for some reason went question crazy in this write up...and on rereading it's annoying)

On first listen thought ESB_TP sounded sped up, but then I start getting confused about the capture system.  If it was captured from a projection, with audio patched in, then it wouldn't have been sped up?  So one sign it is sped up is since it clocks in at 1:57, instead of 2:04.  Yes there are some cut parts but not enough to add up to much more beyond one minute.  So the telecine process is such that the frame interpolation results in the speed up, and the audio is forced to follow along?  If this was pirate market, wouldn't the projection capture be easier and result in no audio sped up, which would be preferred?  I guess the telecine offered up the best visual capture so that's the preferred method of the day.

Why would the British Censor Board placard be centered correctly but then the opening of the film not?  Were these attached directly to the print, or played through a different projection.  Is the off centered crawl a sign one way or the other of this being a telecine or capture from the projection on screen?  The on-the fly credit frame proportion change is probably a telecine sign, correct?

Love the video color shifts, only video can give off these weird corners of the rainbow.  The Star Destroyer which fades from grey to purple.  (which is similar to the clips from the ILM: Creating the Impossible doc.  Wonder if it's the same video tech behind this transfer and those internally produced clips)  The plummeting Probe Droid is also neeto coloring, looks like it's really entering the atmosphere.  and a later very Yellow Yoda.  Where would these color shifts most likely be introduced?  The telecine process (some automatic color adjustment) or in the first or second generation video transfer?  probably some every step of the way.

Lots of Home Made Cue markers in this one.  Sometimes occupying the same upper corner, other times less intrusive horizontal lines at the top or bottom of the screen.  And the home made cues are because of stuff like this:



Melting frame!  Seems like a well used print, especially the Reel on Dagobah with lots of yellow scratches and wear marks.  Here are some of some of the cuts: (please note others)

ESB_TP Cut Parts
16:22 Leia "scruffy-looking nerf herder!"  Han "Who's scruffy-lookin'?"
19:40 (Reel Change) Han welding
39:10 (Reel Change) Couple seconds of Luke in cockpit and Dagobah sets
47:05 Yoda "Yes, yes, but now we must eat."  (jumps over "but now")
59:48 (20-30 seconds) Yoda-Luke dialog :  "Death. - That place...  is strong with the dark side of the Force.  A domain of evil it is.  In you must go.  What's in there?  Only what you take with you. Your weapons... you will not need them."
1:08:40 Yoda: "That is why you ___."
1:11:20 boba cut frames  ?????
1:18:43 Obi-wan "Don't give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
1:19:16 (Reel Change) Post Yoda "There is another"
1:27:02 Vader "I do not want the emperor's prize damaged."
1:27:25 Lost frames in Luke's fly into Bespin
1:32:09 As Boba fires on Luke
1:32:08 Lost frames as Luke runs through Bespin plaza (almost like the Qui-Gon/Obi run in TPM)
1:37:58 (Reel Change) Luke jumps down onto trampoline
1:39:01 Lost frames as Luke gets hit then circular window shatters
1:41: lost frames

Some of these seem like dropped frames in the capture process.  A few happened at sharp loud sections which can overload some capture systems.

1:56:30 During credit (Visual Effects Editorial Supervisor CONRAD BUFF) something interrupts the right side of the frame.

I don't think you'll find a version of Empire where Luke looks more beat up at the end.  Purple and bloated.  That green sky really adds to the mood.  Definitely one of the more unique SW recordings to surface over the years, many thanks Fritz!

...are we all... fine.  Here.. now?
Now back to the Boring Conversation!


Added to first post: (and fixed the errors Aluminum Falcon pointed out)
2005.05.29 : ROTS Cyrillic Crawl - (camcd1&2) [might be same as 3bin/cue version]
1980.xx.xx : ESB 70mm In-Theater Audio Recording - morgands1
and frame guides/reel changes for ESB_TP and ROTJ_TP


Working on converting a Theatrical TPM VHS (some crowd interaction) and would like to include sections which showcase special aspects of the recording.  For instance i'll set chapter markers around the Cue Markers so that they can be played in a dedicated storyline.  Also plan to mark out the footage which would later be changed or modified.  Right now using the wiki SW change as a guide and looking through Adywan's reconstruction thread.  If you know other places for change's, please post.   Or recommend ideas for something to identify so the disc helps pull out information specific to the theater.  Maybe a storyline for all the scenes with subtitles, since that's an aspect which has changed over time.

Also learned that the 'Z' version opens with the crowd cheering then shifts to a direct audio feed.

and here's a story about a TPM which got away:

TPM stolen print : Menomonie, Wis.http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82CBAE770122A&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

Conclusion:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=h6caAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Si8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6354,2270991&dq=bootleg+phantom+menace&hl=en

Sluggo wrote: if you are thinking of non-movie tpp's, would Return of the Ewok or the bootleg Anchorhead scenes from ComiCon belong on your list?

Maybe down the line.  Right now got enough to focus on.  Even though a fan of the cut scene material, so would be curious to see/hear the reaction of the ComiCon-ians to the Anchorhead material.  Maybe in time.

 People wrote:

    but Empire is the best I've seen any SW-bootleg look


    to bad there wasn't a good version for Star Wars and Jedi like Empire.

Is there something wrong with the Moth3r XviD that i'm completely missing????!!!!

Whom we can ask some question to, about the recording.  Suggestions for lines of questioning?

Sent over a bunch of questions to Catnap.  Things like: What's the story behind the tape.  Did he know if it was a 16mm source.  Why Catnap.  If he thought it was a professional collector transfer or something else.  When did he think it was transfered, any ideas on the equipment.  General things to see if some details could be filled in.

Video_Collector wrote:  The Z version:

Below is the VHS being digitizing, was the typical VHS.  So the VHS is the full performance (-credits), and 'Z' used the beginning most likely.  Odd the right edge looks slightly cropped in the VHS but the left side is yet even more cropped in 'Z' if i'm seeing those far left two rocks below the white sand (middle frame).

A positive about the VHS_TP is it has more bottom frame then some of the official releases.  Go figure....

Video Collector said:

none said:

ESB_TP Notes

On first listen thought ESB_TP sounded sped up, but then I start getting confused about the capture system. 

This is just regular PAL speedup. In the Telecine process, the original 24 frames are captured, but on playback it is shown at 25 fps. PAL does not introduce any extra frames at all, just runs them 4% faster. The pitch change of the audio is imperceptible to most people without a side-by side comparison. Drives some people up the wall, I know. The PAL speed up is proof-positive that this was not camcorded off a projection.

 You are right, but PAL speedup has nothing to do with whether it was camcorded or not. Since this was a British print, the person doing the camcording would not have been using an NTSC camera but a local PAL one. (although just because a tape is PAL doesn't mean the source was PAL anyway, but it would make little sense for a Brit to be doing this with a foreign camera).

But because of the excellent registration, uniform exposure, colour information, detail level, etc., this is undoubtedly a telecine, and as it is a british print it was probably done locally, transfered to the PAL format. Given the quality of this, I wouldn't be surprised if it also got copied to NTSC for overseas use.

Video Collector said:

...

I just received a PM from someone, taking the time to thank me for sharing my Empire and Jedi boots with everyone. This spurred me to put into words, just how special and wonderful I find this forum.

...

Fritz

Yeah, that's us.  We're a bit nuts, but we get some awesome stuff done.

;)

none said:

Video_Collector wrote:  The Z version:

Below is the VHS being digitizing, was the typical VHS.  So the VHS is the full performance (-credits), and 'Z' used the beginning most likely.  Odd the right edge looks slightly cropped in the VHS but the left side is yet even more cropped in 'Z' if i'm seeing those far left two rocks below the white sand (middle frame).

A positive about the VHS_TP is it has more bottom frame then some of the official releases.  Go figure....

That source change is weird. I wonder exactly why that happened... Anyway, I also agree, there seems to be more image on the TP. Why would the official release be cropped? Has anyone checked if there is more image on the laserdisc or official VHS?

Crowd reaction sounds nice. Did the audience sound generally pleased or did they sound disappointed?

Oh yeah, the 'Z' version!  I used to have this, but I tossed it once I found a more watchable version.

a lead on ESB and RotJ boots:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:JYzaf6g-iYUJ:www.deep-focus.com/dfweblog/2006/12/grindhouse_hype_begins_in_earn.html+%22return+of+the+jedi%22+bootleg+pan+scan&hl=en&client=firefox-a&gl=us&strip=1

It took me a while to figure out that the movie theater screen had a different shape from the TV screen. I had bootleg copies of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi at one point, and they were both widescreen. (Well, the camcorder had been pointed at the screen in such a way that you saw more of the picture than you would in a pan-and-scan transfer.) So I was starting to realize something was up.

*EDIT*

Contacted: Location: Colorado.  Was a kid last time he watched the boots, so after reviewing the screen cap guides, they could be similar to what he saw.  Also had as a kid taken a tape recorder into SW, so there used to be a cassette of him saying "That's not fair!" when the Star Destroyers came in overhead.

*/EDIT*

TPM foreign lead:

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/archive/index.php/t-14122.html

Star Wars - Episode 1: The Phantom Menace (Bootleg w/ Foreign Subtitles)

Sluggo wrote:  Oh yeah, the 'Z' version!  I used to have this, but I tossed it

Do you remember how you came across it?  VHS/VCD?  Shortly after the movie's release or trade some time later.  Have been attempting to get a general sense with how these releases spread.  The PT ones all seemed to have gone viral digitally so they were everywhere almost immediately.

Video_Collector wrote:

have you contacted these people to see if they still have them?

I attempt to contact these people.  Should start editing the posts to make everyone aware if contact was made or not.  (I don't facebook, so if people can track them down there, that's an avenue I haven't ventured)

This recent ESB/RotJ guy has written back.  Most of the others I haven't found a solid contact or they are ignoring my e-mails or i'm caught in spam filters.  The ESB/RotJ guy took a look at the screen captures, and it's been a long time and he's unsure if they were different sources or could be the same as yours.  He was a kid and the memory wanders.  The solid info though is he's from Colorado, and he guesses his parents or family friends went to a Sci-Fi convention in the early 80s and that's how he was able to watch them.  Generally ask these people to remember anything they can, never know what they might remember which is relevant.  and when he goes home again, he'll see if the tapes still exists.

Future historians will thank him for it.

Or gloss over it entirely when the fan produced high res scan happens.  But I appreciate the sentiment.  "Uncertain" the history "Is".

The AB looks obviously inferior to the Z, but still it would be nice if it were preserved. Hopefully, that man in Colorado with the ESB/ROTJ bootlegs turns out to still have them. The more bootlegs, the merrier ;-)

Anyway, after preserving some TPM boots, are we going to start looking more intensely for AOTC bootlegs to preserve?

Video_Collector wrote:

There was another Ep1 bootleg at the same time as the Z version was out. It was called the AB version.

TPM:AB added to the first post.  Do you remember any context how you found about about this version?  search engines are blanking even when looking through that specific time frame.  'AB' doesn't help narrow down the query.

Aluminum Falcon wrote:

The AB looks obviously inferior to the Z, but still it would be nice if it were preserved.

Anyway, after preserving some TPM boots, are we going to start looking more intensely for AOTC bootlegs to preserve?

All these Theater Performances are inferior in more ways then one.  But the 'AB' seems to have more left frame then the 'Z' so it's not completely inferior in context.  As I poke through these it's also interesting to see where projectionist mark up these pictures.  Only with multiple versions can you trend actions they took.  For instance certain reel changes might have been hard to spot so multiple projectionists might have amended the hard to see ones.  Even some of TPM have marked up frames.  Do projectionists typically preview so they know when the reel changes are coming up or is the 20 minute rule, fairly typical?  Seems odd to take a pencil to a print which is days old.

Yes it's nice to be able to review these recordings, but figuring out how they differ and what's significant about them is what's important.

There's no start/stop looking.  It's just whatever comes into our focus.  Periodically, I just pop in a movie title into a search engine with some other terms hoping to find someone talking about their memories.  When time can be found plan on starting to poke more into old/relic/abandoned SW forums.  Anyone can do this.

This recent Ex-Colorado person, also was a cassette recorder type, and at one point had a tape of his Star Wars experience.  Complete with his childhood exclamation: "That's not fair!" when the Star Destroyer rolled in over head.