The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 10

darth_ender said:

BTW, great post, Ferris! :)

Thank-you!

Warbler said:

surely, there are ways to prevent the fetus from feeling pain during the abortion process?  If not, surely medicare care will eventually improve to where there will be ways to prevent the fetus from feeling pain during the abortion process. 

Abby Johnson?

lol

TV's Frink said:

Abby Johnson?

 

lol

Uh, what is funny?

Have you wiki'd her?

TV's Frink said:

Have you wiki'd her?

Ok. What's the problem?

walkingdork said:

TV's Frink said:

darth_ender said:

I'm sorry, but the "abortion should be legal in all cases" mentality is equally pervasive and annoying.  But neither you nor I completely hold to those arguments (as mentioned before, I personally allow for some, albeit few and limited, exceptions--and I doubt you feel that abortion should have no restrictions).  Still, I'd always rather err on the side of caution, even in my giving way to the other side.

I was referring more to Ferris' post, although you did complement it.

The "abortion should always be legal" side is much smaller, btw.  There are very few people who think it's fine to abort a fetus at 39-1/2 weeks just for the hell of it.

What Frink said

 

Walkingdork, your contributions of late have really increased our understanding.  Word! ;)

Alright, so this is actually mostly in response to Frink.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

It matters not which side is bigger or smaller.  Does the number of supporters give you or me more of a right to be annoyed?  But since we're comparing, it looks that you are absolutely incorrect.  Over the past several years, the "under any circumstance" abortion advocates are significantly more plentiful than "not under any circumstance" pro-life advocates.  The largest group believes in "only a few circumstances", so that is a good thing and it's probably where I would place myself were I given this poll.  However, such a question leaves a lot of leeway, and clearly the laws don't reflect such polling.  As to late term abortions, there are still 10% of our nation who support third trimester abortions.  That is not a trivial number.

What probably aggravates me the most is that abortion is justified because the child is just a "bunch of cells" and would feel no pain.  Is pain the defining criterium of what makes someone human and deserving of human rights?  What about fear?  This video seems to show that aborted children actually fear what is happening, regardless of how much pain they experience.  Why is fear not factored in?  Is it because the omniscient scientists cannot detect when a child gains a sense of fear?

Regardless of whether or not Abby Johnson's story is accurate, children do try to escape their deaths.  And liberals, who are usually so in favor of educated decisions, seem to favor reducing education so that a woman's perspective won't be "tainted."

ferris209 said:

TV's Frink said:

Have you wiki'd her?

Ok. What's the problem?

1.  I question whether fetus would be able realize the probe was there,  I whether the fetus would have been able to realize its life was danger.

2.  I saw a comment on page of the youtube video you linked to.   It says "This woman is a moron. I don't think what? she saw was the "baby " fighting for it's life. As the probe went in , it would have looked like the baby was moving, when it reality it would have been the probe pushing against the tissue."   I have no idea as to this person's medical expertise or anything like that.  But what he says seems to be possible.   If anyone here has any medical knowledge of stuff like this,  please weigh in

3. I find it hard to believe that someone that was not a doctor, nurse, or technician, would be allowed to participate in an abortion procedure.  

4.  according to wiki:  "Planned Parenthood stated that its records do not show any ultrasound-guided abortions performed on the date when Johnson says she witnessed the procedure, and the physician who performed abortions at the Bryan clinic stated that Johnson had never been asked to assist in an abortion. Although Johnson said the abortion was of a 13-week-old fetus, records from the Texas Department of Health show no such abortions performed at the Bryan Clinic on the date in question"

5. Also according to wiki: Abby Johnson was put on a ""performance improvement plan" 4 days before her resignation

6. Also according to wiki: "Johnson herself says the "performance improvement plan" was due to her reluctance to increase the number of abortions performed at her facility"   But: "Johnson said after her resignation that her bosses had pressured her to increase profits by performing more and more abortions at the clinic.^[5] "Every meeting that we had was, 'We don't have enough money, we don't have enough money — we've got to keep these abortions coming.' It's a very lucrative business and that's why they want to increase numbers," she said. Johnson estimated the clinic profited $350 on every abortion.^[5] An article on Salon.com questioned Johnson's statements regarding financial incentives for abortions, noting that abortions comprise only 3% of Planned Parenthood's services.^[6] Fox News reported that Johnson was unable to provide any emails, letters, or other evidence to support her allegations about pressure to perform abortions"  

7.  Even if what Abby Johnson claims is true.   what does that have to do my claim that surely there are ways to prevent the fetus' suffering during abortion and if aren't right now, maybe as improvement in medical care are made, there will be ways in the future.    

darth_ender said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

 

darth_ender said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Abortion frees the spirit from the prison that is flesh.

So, by the same logic, killing of any kind is acceptable, right?

The entity goes with a minimum of fuss, feeling no pain or awareness as the deed is done. Working someone to death in a concentration camp, however, and similar scenarios, belong to another hand altogether.

 

But at least they're freed from their prison of suffering flesh when they die!

Of course I find such things horrible, but to me, the value of human life does not depend on the person's ability to recognize that his/her life is in any danger or the suffering that precedes that death.

Warbler said:

1.  I question whether fetus would be able realize the probe was there,  I whether the fetus would have been able to realize its life was danger.

Fair question. Of course, I have no medical experience in the matter. However, I do believe that protecting your life would be instinctual, even in the womb. Perhaps not, but at least it does make one think.

Warbler said:

2.  I saw a comment on page of the youtube video you linked to.   It says "This woman is a moron. I don't think what? she saw was the "baby " fighting for it's life. As the probe went in , it would have looked like the baby was moving, when it reality it would have been the probe pushing against the tissue."   I have no idea as to this person's medical expertise or anything like that.  But what he says seems to be possible.   If anyone here has any medical knowledge of stuff like this,  please weigh in

I'd like to hear also as I don't necessarily rely on, or trust, youtube comments or even Wikipedia pages.

Warbler said:

3. I find it hard to believe that someone that was not a doctor, nurse, or technician, would be allowed to participate in an abortion procedure.  

I believe that someone could be involved. I've been called over by Doctors and Nurses to do all kinds of stuff.

Warbler said:

4.  according to wiki:  "Planned Parenthood stated that its records do not show any ultrasound-guided abortions performed on the date when Johnson says she witnessed the procedure, and the physician who performed abortions at the Bryan clinic stated that Johnson had never been asked to assist in an abortion. Although Johnson said the abortion was of a 13-week-old fetus, records from the Texas Department of Health show no such abortions performed at the Bryan Clinic on the date in question"

Perhaps her dates was not correct. Maybe the clinic failed to report the event. Maybe the clinic wiped the records and covered it up. Maybe it never happened and she's a liar.

Warbler said:

5. Also according to wiki: Abby Johnson was put on a ""performance improvement plan" 4 days before her resignation

Yeah, so.

Warbler said:

6. Also according to wiki: "Johnson herself says the "performance improvement plan" was due to her reluctance to increase the number of abortions performed at her facility"   But: "Johnson said after her resignation that her bosses had pressured her to increase profits by performing more and more abortions at the clinic.^[5] "Every meeting that we had was, 'We don't have enough money, we don't have enough money — we've got to keep these abortions coming.' It's a very lucrative business and that's why they want to increase numbers," she said. Johnson estimated the clinic profited $350 on every abortion.^[5] An article on Salon.com questioned Johnson's statements regarding financial incentives for abortions, noting that abortions comprise only 3% of Planned Parenthood's services.^[6] Fox News reported that Johnson was unable to provide any emails, letters, or other evidence to support her allegations about pressure to perform abortions"  

All fair and good questions.

Warbler said:

7.  Even if what Abby Johnson claims is true.   what does that have to do my claim that surely there are ways to prevent the fetus' suffering during abortion and if aren't right now, maybe as improvement in medical care are made, there will be ways in the future.    

Hopefully the atrocious, barbaric activity will one day be seen for what it is.

Keep in mind I don't necessarily believe Wikipedia, regardless of sources, and I don't necessarily believe Abby Johnson. I just hoped to add to the discussion.

ferris209 said:

Warbler said:

2.  I saw a comment on page of the youtube video you linked to.   It says "This woman is a moron. I don't think what? she saw was the "baby " fighting for it's life. As the probe went in , it would have looked like the baby was moving, when it reality it would have been the probe pushing against the tissue."   I have no idea as to this person's medical expertise or anything like that.  But what he says seems to be possible.   If anyone here has any medical knowledge of stuff like this,  please weigh in

I'd like to hear also as I don't necessarily rely on, or trust, youtube comments or even Wikipedia pages.

I agree both must be take with a grain of salt. 

ferris209 said:

Warbler said:

3. I find it hard to believe that someone that was not a doctor, nurse, or technician, would be allowed to participate in an abortion procedure.  

I believe that someone could be involved. I've been called over by Doctors and Nurses to do all kinds of stuff.

were you ever called into an operating room?  

ferris209 said:

Warbler said:

4.  according to wiki:  "Planned Parenthood stated that its records do not show any ultrasound-guided abortions performed on the date when Johnson says she witnessed the procedure, and the physician who performed abortions at the Bryan clinic stated that Johnson had never been asked to assist in an abortion. Although Johnson said the abortion was of a 13-week-old fetus, records from the Texas Department of Health show no such abortions performed at the Bryan Clinic on the date in question"

Perhaps her dates was not correct.

oh please.

ferris209 said:

Maybe the clinic failed to report the event. Maybe the clinic wiped the records and covered it up.

how could they cover up the Texas Department of Heath records?

ferris209 said:

Maybe it never happened and she's a liar.

yep.

ferris209 said:

Warbler said:

5. Also according to wiki: Abby Johnson was put on a ""performance improvement plan" 4 days before her resignation

Yeah, so.

it shows there were problems between her and her employers.  Its shows that it is possible that was a disgruntled employee.   It gives her motive for wanting to lie about planned parenthood and slander them.  

ferris209 said:

Warbler said:

7.  Even if what Abby Johnson claims is true.   what does that have to do my claim that surely there are ways to prevent the fetus' suffering during abortion and if aren't right now, maybe as improvement in medical care are made, there will be ways in the future.    

Hopefully the atrocious, barbaric activity will one day be seen for what it is.

and hopefully whatever abortions are allowed, if any, will be made less suffering to the fetus. 

DuracellEnergizer said:

 

darth_ender said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

 

darth_ender said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Abortion frees the spirit from the prison that is flesh.

So, by the same logic, killing of any kind is acceptable, right?

The entity goes with a minimum of fuss, feeling no pain or awareness as the deed is done. Working someone to death in a concentration camp, however, and similar scenarios, belong to another hand altogether.

 

But at least they're freed from their prison of suffering flesh when they die!

Of course I find such things horrible, but to me, the value of human life does not depend on the person's ability to recognize that his/her life is in any danger or the suffering that precedes that death.

Well, someone can get just as clean bathing in a frigid stream in the middle of winter as they could with a hot shower, but one is decidedly more tolerable than another.

As for your value of human life, while I truly don't share it anymore, I can see where you're coming from. Of course, I don't understand why you invest so much concern into abortion. You believe in an afterlife, correct? And fetuses, should they die before birth, should just go straight there, straight into God's presence, right? If that's so, then why is it so bad to send the child directly there? Why must he or she suffer through the senselessness and pain of physical existence with the very real possibility of growing up into an unbeliever/apostate hanging over his/her head like a blade about to drop when such a glorious alternative is available?

 

yeah he believes in the afterlife, I am sure.  But I am also sure he believes in the commandment that goes "thy shall not kill".

^^I don't believe in that commandment.  I prefer "Thou shalt not kill." ;)

Yes, I do believe in the afterlife.  And I am aware of your (DuracellEnergizer's) view on human life--quite existential if I remember correctly (can't remember where I read that, maybe earlier in this thread?).  I'm equally curious as to your views on euthanasia, eugenics, murder, etc., considering "humans are the source of everything wrong with this world," or something along those lines.

As for how my religious views affect my perception of mortality and the value of human life, it could be a lengthy discussion better suited for my Mormon questions thread.  To be brief and on topic here, I do not consider it justifiable to kill so children return to God, in spite of my belief that all children who die do indeed return to him.  I believe there is more to it than that, and that God is ultimately the one who should determine when we leave this world.

darth_ender said:

^^I don't believe in that commandment.  I prefer "Thou shalt not kill." ;)

 

I meant "thou shalt not kill".  although "thy shall not kill" is basically the same.   

darth_ender said:

To be brief and on topic here, I do consider it justifiable to kill so children return to God

I am sure you meant "do not".   or maybe you meant "unjustifiable"? 

Let's abort this line of questioning for something even more pressing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBDxk521Z_0

How can a doctor perform an abortion on a woman whom is not actually pregnant?   

Black magic.

Time Travel.

They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back? 
it was on the news this mroing a mother in ar who had kill her three kids . they are taking the three babby back to new york too lady to rest my pary are with the father who lost his chrilden ; i am truley sorry for your lots

huh?

The debate is jut minutes away . . .

Warbler said:

The debate is jut minutes away . . .

/threat

How is babby unformed?