The thread for the serious discussion that started in the "Am I a Bully?" thread.

This thread is for the continuation of the serious discussion that started here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Am-I-a-Bully/post/739058/#TopicPost739058

I think I have to agree with the opinion that people need to be taught how to cope with bullies. There is just no way to prevent bullying, and since bullies are among the most insecure kids, bullying them into not bullying just won't work. They need to not be treated like criminals, since that will just add to their insecurity, and to the bullying problem. Now, I do not mean that bullies should be treated like they're the good guys and their victims should be told to suck it up. Indeed, stopping bullying is a good thing to do, so far as it is possible. The problem is, as I stated above, that it is not possible, so it is necessary to attack the issue from both sides.

I've never been bullied, nor have I been a bully, so the whole bullying issue isn't as personal for me as it is for some. Thus, my opinions on bullying are in no way fixed, but are a result of personal observation.

One of my little brothers can be a bit of a bully sometimes, and I know for a fact that treating him like the bad guy all the time would not help at all. He needs to learn that what he is doing is wrong, and will not solve any problems, but he also needs help with self-confidence, as well as being given more attention, so that he doesn't feel the need to bully out of insecurity.

Just keep in mind that most bullies have personal problems, or have been brought up in such a way that they have become that way. They didn't sit down and decide to be mean. Nor do most of them do it just for the sake of hurting people. Therefore, helping them, as soon as they begin bullying, if possible, is at least as necessary as helping the victims.

Just because you can't totally stop it, doesn't mean you shouldn't try as best as you can.   When I was growing up, I do not believe the schools did as much as they could to stop it.   As for treating them like criminals, sometimes in fact, bullies do violate the law.  Sometimes bullying can turn into assault and battery, imho, when it does the bully becomes a criminal.    Even when they are not violating the law, 99% of the time they are in violation of school rules.  Even when I was in school it was against the rules to hit or kick another kid or push one down.  It was against the rules to take stuff from another kid and throw their belonging around.    It was agains the rules to swear(much name calling can involve swearing).  I fail to see anything wrong with enforcing the rules and the law on bullies.   I realize they can have personal problems that lead them to bullying.   But even they do have personal problems, it doesn't give them the right to take it out on me or other small kids around them.   When they let their personal problems negatively effect others, they have crossed a line.   Yes, they should be helped if needed, I never said otherwise.  Getting them the help they need can be part of the process of fighting bullying.   Maybe they shouldn't be treated like the "bad guy", but they also shouldn't be allowed to get away with bullying and breaking the rules.   Your little brother isn't a bad guy, but when he breaks the rules, he should be punished like anyone else and should be taught that bullying is wrong, and if he has any personal problems like lack of self-confidence and such, they need to be dealt with.   

I didn't say that there shouldn't be consequences for their actions--indeed, I said that they need to learn that what they are doing is wrong--but I think more emphasis should be placed on helping the bullies (but not at the expense of helping the victims) than there is now. Bullies are victims in their own way. Thus, it is important to tackle the problem from both sides, helping both the victims and the bullies, rather than criminalizing the bullies, which only furthers the problem rather than solving it.

I was bullied all the time as a kid and it wasn't the end of the world. I don't know every time I hear some one talking like being bullied is the worst thing that could happen to you all I can think about is how many times I was beat up as a kid and had my favorite toys stolen and yet it didn't cause any long term problems. In fact now that I am an adult I am friends with some of the kids who bullied me when I was a kid.

When there are so many other crimes running out of control in this country I have to wonder why the government is spending so much money on tv ads to stop bullying. Oh and I don't buy that a kid who is bullied will end up shooting up a school or something some day, as I said I was bullied and that idea never once crossed my mind.

I don't know it just seems to me that when I was a kid part of growing up was learning how to solve problems on your own and I learned to avoid the bullies or stand up to them. It just seems to me like we are training kids to play the victim card their whole lives and when we flood the Tv with all the ads where we act like your life is over if you get bullied once we are just making the problem worse since we are sending the message to kids that if you get called names or anything like that then you may as well kill yourself because you have nothing to live for. I don't know it just seems wrong to tell kids to let what others say about them have so much power in their lives. People called me names and mocked me all of my life and you know what I learned on my own? To be my own person and not care what they think and do well in school. Because of that I did better in school then the other kids I grew up with and I have never touched a drink or done drugs while most of the kids I grew up with who did care either became teen parents or got a drinking or drug problem they had to deal with. I don't think I would have learned to not care what people said about me if I hadn't been picked on as a kid.

Am I saying bullying is good? No. What I am saying is that you can respond to it in a positive way and I think we should be teaching kids how to do that instead of trying to stamp out bullying which I don't see how that can be done without setting up a police state where we send grade school kids to prison and what everything everyone does 24/7. teach kids not to care what some idiot says about that, that is the much better option if you ask me.

        I learned a lesson about the futility of dealing with bullies when I was a kid.

        Halloween, my sister and I were out trick-or-treating and we, like several other kids, were shot by a teenager with a pellet gun.

        He had a little brother. I asked my father to let it go, but he was afraid some one's eye would be put out. He found the kid and called the cops to deal with it.

        I had always gotten along with the little brother, but one day he challenged me to a fight. I could tell his heart wasn't in it. It was like some creep was putting him up to it. We both punched each other once and then were happy to back-off.

       We avoided each other for the next couple of years. Then one day I got a call from the father. In a cold, snide way he claimed that my dog had tried to bite his son. I had never seen my dog be anything but friendly to everyone. He claimed that the dog had bit into the kid's winter coat. Later, I saw the kid's coat with a perfectly straight little cut, as if from scissors, that had been sewn-up.

        We had to put my dog to sleep.

xhonzi said:

There are a lot of problems that must be solved by people that aren't in the wrong.  Saying that the solution to a problem is within the grasp of a particular party is not the same as saying they are to blame.

The problem is that wrongdoers often have no interest in fixing/preventing the problems they cause.  You can try to incentivize them to a point, but they're already breaking the rules (going against incentives that work for the rest of us) by being wrongdoers in the first place.

So, though they have done no wrong, the solution must come from the innocent, or there will come no solution at all.

As has been said, you can and should try to stop bullying.  However that will never stop bullying.  To really solve the problem, you must teach the bullied not to allow it to happen. 

Stop the victim mentality.  It generally creates more problems than it solves.  Does it solve any, really?

Also- all of the focus on bullying over the past decade, I think, has emboldened bullies.  It's very strong feedback that their tactics are working.  It's like feeding a troll.

 Yes well said.

One of the things I learned all on my own when I was a kid is that if I stopped paying attention to what bullies said when they hade fun of me they would give up and leave me alone. One of the things that bugs me is I now see ads on tv telling kids that their lives are ruined if they are called names, how does telling kids to let bullies have this kind of power help the victims again?  Any way back to my main point for bullies name calling is only fun if they get a reaction from you, so as a kid I learned that if you don't care what they think it is no fun for them and they will leave you alone.\

As for the other type of bullying, well depending on the bully I found that either avoiding them or standing up to them was the best thing to do. When I did stand up to them even if I lost the fight every time they would go and look for easier prey.

Oh and another aside to show that it isn't the end of the world and kids can grow up. When I was a kid there was a bully who really upset me and one time he punched my brother so hard he split his lips. We had a big fight after that and I didn't talk to him for year/ Now that we are adults and have grown up and seen that it was really petty we are friends. Bullying is only the end of the world if you let it be.

We should be teaching kids not to let bullies have the power and define them for the rest of their lives. That is how you stop bullying.

xhonzi said:

There are a lot of problems that must be solved by people that aren't in the wrong.  Saying that the solution to a problem is within the grasp of a particular party is not the same as saying they are to blame.

This is where you are dead wrong.  The solution was not in my grasp.   It was in the grasp of the adults around me that failed me.  

The problem is that wrongdoers often have no interest in fixing/preventing the problems they cause.  You can try to incentivize them to a point, but they're already breaking the rules (going against incentives that work for the rest of us) by being wrongdoers in the first place.

If you agree they are breaking the rules, what is wrong with punishing them for that?

So, though they have done no wrong, the solution must come from the innocent, or there will come no solution at all.

But it shouldn't solely up the the bullied to solve.  What about the teachers, school admins, parents, and other adults?

As has been said, you can and should try to stop bullying.  However that will never stop bullying. 

It will stop some of it.  It might also help the victim in that he won't think he is all alone with this problem.

To really solve the problem, you must teach the bullied not to allow it to happen. 

fuck you.   I DIDN'T ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN!!!  THE BULLIES DECIDED TO DO IT ON THEIR.  THEY WERE BIGGER AND STRONGER AND FASTER THAN ME AND I WAS OUT NUMBERED!   JUST WHAT THE FUCK WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO TO NOT ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN?!?!?!? IT WASN'T MY FUCKING FAULT!!!!!!!!

Stop the victim mentality.  It generally creates more problems than it solves.  Does it solve any, really?

Why should we deny that the bullied are in fact victims?  THEY ARE!

Also- all of the focus on bullying over the past decade, I think, has emboldened bullies.  It's very strong feedback that their tactics are working.  It's like feeding a troll.

 There is one way to end a troll: ban them.

RicOlie_2 said:

I didn't say that there shouldn't be consequences for their actions--indeed, I said that they need to learn that what they are doing is wrong--but I think more emphasis should be placed on helping the bullies (but not at the expense of helping the victims) than there is now.

Perhaps there should be more emphasis placed on helping the bullies(and part of the help they need is to be taught that bullying people is wrong).   But still, bullying does make you above the rules or the law.  When you break the rules or the law, the proper punishment should be handed out,  I can't count the number of times that didn't happen in the case of my bullies.

Bullies are victims in their own way.

that doesn't give them the right to make others their victims.

Thus, it is important to tackle the problem from both sides, helping both the victims and the bullies,

I agree, I just don't think the way to solve it, is to treat the bullied like they are the only ones with a problem, as if the bullies didn't do anything wrong

rather than criminalizing the bullies,

if a bully violates in the law in the process of bullying, he IS a criminal.

DrCrowTStarwars said:

I was bullied all the time as a kid and it wasn't the end of the world. I don't know every time I hear some one talking like being bullied is the worst thing that could happen to you all I can think about is how many times I was beat up as a kid and had my favorite toys stolen and yet it didn't cause any long term problems. In fact now that I am an adult I am friends with some of the kids who bullied me when I was a kid.

I don't know how you could be friends with them.  Did they are atleast apologize to you.   I want nothing to do with those that bullied me.   One of the reasons I avoid going to class reunions is to avoid being in the same room with them.

When there are so many other crimes running out of control in this country I have to wonder why the government is spending so much money on tv ads to stop bullying.

We don't have to only focus on one problem. 

Oh and I don't buy that a kid who is bullied will end up shooting up a school or something some day, as I said I was bullied and that idea never once crossed my mind.

nor I do, but I did and still do have fantasies about doing violence to them and getting revenge.   It is not something I or most would ever do, but it has can happen.

I don't know it just seems to me that when I was a kid part of growing up was learning how to solve problems on your own

but there are some problems you can't solve on your own.

and I learned to avoid the bullies or stand up to them.

I tried to avoid the bullies but couldn't.    Whenever I stood up to them, it seemed to only made things worse for me.    They were bigger, strong, and faster then I was and outnumbered me.

It just seems to me like we are training kids to play the victim card their whole lives and when we flood the Tv with all the ads where we act like your life is over if you get bullied once we are just making the problem worse since we are sending the message to kids that if you get called names or anything like that then you may as well kill yourself because you have nothing to live for.

I have never seen any tv ad that acted like someone's life was over just because they were called names.

I don't know it just seems wrong to tell kids to let what others say about them have so much power in their lives.

Its also wrong to pretend that names can't hurt, they can and they do.

People called me names and mocked me all of my life and you know what I learned on my own? To be my own person and not care what they think and do well in school.

for some, it is easier to not care what others think, than it is for others.

 I don't think I would have learned to not care what people said about me if I hadn't been picked on as a kid.

all I can say is that I don't think I ever learned anything from being bullied except to hate myself and think that I am such a loser.    If anyone has ever learned anything from being bullied, surely there is a better way to learn the same lesson.

Am I saying bullying is good? No. What I am saying is that you can respond to it in a positive way and I think we should be teaching kids how to do that instead of trying to stamp out bullying

why not try to do both?

which I don't see how that can be done without setting up a police state

we can eliminate a lot of bullying without setting up a police state.

teach kids not to care what some idiot says about that, that is the much better option if you ask me.

if only it were so simple to not care what others think.   I think we should do that as best we can, but what is wrong with teaching kids that it is wrong to bully as well?

DrCrowTStarwars said:

xhonzi said:

There are a lot of problems that must be solved by people that aren't in the wrong.  Saying that the solution to a problem is within the grasp of a particular party is not the same as saying they are to blame.

The problem is that wrongdoers often have no interest in fixing/preventing the problems they cause.  You can try to incentivize them to a point, but they're already breaking the rules (going against incentives that work for the rest of us) by being wrongdoers in the first place.

So, though they have done no wrong, the solution must come from the innocent, or there will come no solution at all.

As has been said, you can and should try to stop bullying.  However that will never stop bullying.  To really solve the problem, you must teach the bullied not to allow it to happen. 

Stop the victim mentality.  It generally creates more problems than it solves.  Does it solve any, really?

Also- all of the focus on bullying over the past decade, I think, has emboldened bullies.  It's very strong feedback that their tactics are working.  It's like feeding a troll.

 Yes well said.

One of the things I learned all on my own when I was a kid is that if I stopped paying attention to what bullies said when they hade fun of me they would give up and leave me alone.

I tried that and failed again and anain.  That didn't,couldn't and wouldn't work for me.

One of the things that bugs me is I now see ads on tv telling kids that their lives are ruined if they are called names, how does telling kids to let bullies have this kind of power help the victims again? 

again, I have never seen such ads.

Any way back to my main point for bullies name calling is only fun if they get a reaction from you, so as a kid I learned that if you don't care what they think it is no fun for them and they will leave you alone.\

yeah that is what everyone tried to teach me, it didn't work.  Not everyone is built with the kind of self control that takes.   Also when I tried this, the bullies would just get worse and worse until it was impossible to ignore them.

As for the other type of bullying, well depending on the bully I found that either avoiding them or standing up to them was the best thing to do. When I did stand up to them even if I lost the fight every time they would go and look for easier prey.

Didn't work out for me.  My bullies were bigger stronger and faster than me and outnumbered me.    Everytime I lost a fight(which was every fight), it just made me look more foolish to everyone else in the class and it seemed give the bullies mroe incentive to come back for more.

We should be teaching kids not to let bullies have the power and define them for the rest of their lives. That is how you stop bullying.

 we should also be teaching kids not to bully in the first place.

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

I was bullied all the time as a kid and it wasn't the end of the world. I don't know every time I hear some one talking like being bullied is the worst thing that could happen to you all I can think about is how many times I was beat up as a kid and had my favorite toys stolen and yet it didn't cause any long term problems. In fact now that I am an adult I am friends with some of the kids who bullied me when I was a kid.

I don't know how you could be friends with them.  Did they are atleast apologize to you.   I want nothing to do with those that bullied me.   One of the reasons I avoid going to class reunions is to avoid being in the same room with them.

When there are so many other crimes running out of control in this country I have to wonder why the government is spending so much money on tv ads to stop bullying.

We don't have to only focus on one problem. 

Oh and I don't buy that a kid who is bullied will end up shooting up a school or something some day, as I said I was bullied and that idea never once crossed my mind.

nor I do, but I did and still do have fantasies about doing violence to them and getting revenge.   It is not something I or most would ever do, but it has can happen.

I don't know it just seems to me that when I was a kid part of growing up was learning how to solve problems on your own

but there are some problems you can't solve on your own.

and I learned to avoid the bullies or stand up to them.

I tried to avoid the bullies but couldn't.    Whenever I stood up to them, it seemed to only made things worse for me.    They were bigger, strong, and faster then I was and outnumbered me.

It just seems to me like we are training kids to play the victim card their whole lives and when we flood the Tv with all the ads where we act like your life is over if you get bullied once we are just making the problem worse since we are sending the message to kids that if you get called names or anything like that then you may as well kill yourself because you have nothing to live for.

I have never seen any tv ad that acted like someone's life was over just because they were called names.

I don't know it just seems wrong to tell kids to let what others say about them have so much power in their lives.

Its also wrong to pretend that names can't hurt, they can and they do.

People called me names and mocked me all of my life and you know what I learned on my own? To be my own person and not care what they think and do well in school.

for some, it is easier to not care what others think, than it is for others.

 I don't think I would have learned to not care what people said about me if I hadn't been picked on as a kid.

all I can say is that I don't think I ever learned anything from being bullied except to hate myself and think that I am such a loser.    If anyone has ever learned anything from being bullied, surely there is a better way to learn the same lesson.

Am I saying bullying is good? No. What I am saying is that you can respond to it in a positive way and I think we should be teaching kids how to do that instead of trying to stamp out bullying

why not try to do both?

which I don't see how that can be done without setting up a police state

we can eliminate a lot of bullying without setting up a police state.

teach kids not to care what some idiot says about that, that is the much better option if you ask me.

if only it were so simple to not care what others think.   I think we should do that as best we can, but what is wrong with teaching kids that it is wrong to bully as well?

 

 So you have let something that happened to you as a kid control everything you think say and do for the rest of your life. 

I don't need anyone to say sorry because I grew up, that is something more people need to learn how to do.

here is the only way you will ever stop bullying. First you have to have cameras covering every inch of the planet, then you have to give the police the power to shoot any kid who bullies in the head. That is the only way you will stop it and while that may be your dream world it isn't mine.

Oh and I was smaller then all the kids that ganged up on me but that didn't mater, I learned to take a punch and not hold grudge. What is the point of letting something that happened 20 years ago when we were all stupid kids define the rest of my life? Why would I want to give anyone that power. As long as I am still standing I can still decide my own fate so they haven't won. One thing I have learned from talking to people, living my own life, and reading books about the subject is violence always has a point and when it comes to bullying the point is to make you feel worst about yourself and change the way you react to things, as long as you don't do that they have not won. The moment you let it become the only thing you care about and you start avoiding people and places that is when they win. Hell if someone is using violence to try and change you and you don't give in they can kill you and they have still lost because they applied all that force and didn't reach their goal. 

Do you honestly think that they is any way to stop kids from bullying for all time without a police state?  Do you really think it will do any good to execute children or send them into our over crowded prison system?  Have all the ads on Tv done any good? Maybe the moment a baby is born we should just dump them in prison, after all then they will never get the chance to bully and the problem will be gone. After all anyone who has ever bullied is an inhuman monster and there is no such thing as going too far to stomp out this problem because it is clearly the number one threat to life on the planet today.

Most bullying that I hear people complaining about is name calling now yes in a class room you can put a stop to that but that is not where kids do it. They do it out in public or in their own homes. You can't stop name calling without attacking free speech so if you ask me that right there is setting up a police state.

I mean how long before it is decided that anyone who says anything negative about the president is bullying him and then it becomes a crime to not support the president?  Don't tell me it couldn't happen because if the president says people are hurting his feelings isn't he being bullied and why shouldn't those mean people be made to stop? There is no reason it couldn't go that far at some point so I say let's not even go down that road.

Not to mention that unless you have the government watching everything everyone thinks says or does how do you catch bullies in anything other then a "he said she said" type of situation where there is no proof one way or the other?  Again this crosses the line into a police state and it is a place I never want to go.

Oh and if you think it was easy for me to learn how to deal with bullies you should talk to me mom about the number of times I came home crying but I learned that they couldn't make me change and they couldn't control my life so they had no real power and were just frittering away their own lives that could be spent doing something better.

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

I was bullied all the time as a kid and it wasn't the end of the world. I don't know every time I hear some one talking like being bullied is the worst thing that could happen to you all I can think about is how many times I was beat up as a kid and had my favorite toys stolen and yet it didn't cause any long term problems. In fact now that I am an adult I am friends with some of the kids who bullied me when I was a kid.

I don't know how you could be friends with them.  Did they are atleast apologize to you.   I want nothing to do with those that bullied me.   One of the reasons I avoid going to class reunions is to avoid being in the same room with them.

When there are so many other crimes running out of control in this country I have to wonder why the government is spending so much money on tv ads to stop bullying.

We don't have to only focus on one problem. 

Oh and I don't buy that a kid who is bullied will end up shooting up a school or something some day, as I said I was bullied and that idea never once crossed my mind.

nor I do, but I did and still do have fantasies about doing violence to them and getting revenge.   It is not something I or most would ever do, but it has can happen.

I don't know it just seems to me that when I was a kid part of growing up was learning how to solve problems on your own

but there are some problems you can't solve on your own.

and I learned to avoid the bullies or stand up to them.

I tried to avoid the bullies but couldn't.    Whenever I stood up to them, it seemed to only made things worse for me.    They were bigger, strong, and faster then I was and outnumbered me.

It just seems to me like we are training kids to play the victim card their whole lives and when we flood the Tv with all the ads where we act like your life is over if you get bullied once we are just making the problem worse since we are sending the message to kids that if you get called names or anything like that then you may as well kill yourself because you have nothing to live for.

I have never seen any tv ad that acted like someone's life was over just because they were called names.

I don't know it just seems wrong to tell kids to let what others say about them have so much power in their lives.

Its also wrong to pretend that names can't hurt, they can and they do.

People called me names and mocked me all of my life and you know what I learned on my own? To be my own person and not care what they think and do well in school.

for some, it is easier to not care what others think, than it is for others.

 I don't think I would have learned to not care what people said about me if I hadn't been picked on as a kid.

all I can say is that I don't think I ever learned anything from being bullied except to hate myself and think that I am such a loser.    If anyone has ever learned anything from being bullied, surely there is a better way to learn the same lesson.

Am I saying bullying is good? No. What I am saying is that you can respond to it in a positive way and I think we should be teaching kids how to do that instead of trying to stamp out bullying

why not try to do both?

which I don't see how that can be done without setting up a police state

we can eliminate a lot of bullying without setting up a police state.

teach kids not to care what some idiot says about that, that is the much better option if you ask me.

if only it were so simple to not care what others think.   I think we should do that as best we can, but what is wrong with teaching kids that it is wrong to bully as well?

 

 So you have let something that happened to you as a kid control everything you think say and do for the rest of your life. 

fuck you.  I don't let them control everything I think and say for the rest of my life!

I don't need anyone to say sorry because I grew up, that is something more people need to learn how to do.

whatever.

here is the only way you will ever stop bullying. First you have to have cameras covering every inch of the planet, then you have to give the police the power to shoot any kid who bullies in the head.

that is just stupid and asinine and crazy.   There are other less extreme ways of preventing bullying than this.

Oh and I was smaller then all the kids that ganged up on me but that didn't mater, I learned to take a punch and not hold grudge. What is the point of letting something that happened 20 years ago when we were all stupid kids define the rest of my life?

look, I didn't decide to let it effect me, it just does!  So sorry I never learned how to take a punch.   But why the hell should I have had to, its called school not boxing.

Why would I want to give anyone that power. As long as I am still standing I can still decide my own fate so they haven't won. One thing I have learned from talking to people, living my own life, and reading books about the subject is violence always has a point and when it comes to bullying the point is to make you feel worst about yourself and change the way you react to things, as long as you don't do that they have not won. The moment you let it become the only thing you care about and you start avoiding people and places that is when they win. Hell if someone is using violence to try and change you and you don't give in they can kill you and they have still lost because they applied all that force and didn't reach their goal. 

whatever.

Do you honestly think that they is any way to stop kids from bullying for all time without a police state? 

no, I merely want to prevent as much as possible without creating a police state. 

Do you really think it will do any good to execute children or send them into our over crowded prison system? 

WHO THE HELL SAID ANYTHING ABOUT EXECUTING CHILDREN?!?!  STOP BEING AN ASS!

Have all the ads on Tv done any good? Maybe the moment a baby is born we should just dump them in prison, after all then they will never get the chance to bully and the problem will be gone. After all anyone who has ever bullied is an inhuman monster and there is no such thing as going too far to stomp out this problem because it is clearly the number one threat to life on the planet today.

More asinine bs.

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Most bullying that I hear people complaining about is name calling now yes in a class room you can put a stop to that but that is not where kids do it.

that is where kids did it to me, in school on school grounds.  The adults didn't do anywhere near enough to stop it.   We were not properly supervised on the playground during recess.   They had people out there with us that were supposed to be watching us, but they used more as time to gossip instead of keeping a good eye on us.  I've lost count of the number of times the bullies were able to do things to me right in the plain veiw of those that were supposed to be watching and failed to do anything about it. 

They do it out in public or in their own homes.

the bullies almost never did anything to me in my home,  They weren't allowed there.  The only thing they did do was crank call me a few times.   That can be handled by the law.

You can't stop name calling without attacking free speech so if you ask me that right there is setting up a police state.

funny, parents, teachers other adults regularly tell kids to stop name calling you really want to say that is a violation of the free speech?   Kids have a right to an opinion but do not have the right to harass other kids.;

I mean how long before it is decided that anyone who says anything negative about the president is bullying him and then it becomes a crime to not support the president? 

more asinine bs.

Don't tell me it couldn't happen because if the president says people are hurting his feelings isn't he being bullied and why shouldn't those mean people be made to stop?

for one thing, the free speech rights of adults are much less limited than that of children.

Not to mention that unless you have the government watching everything everyone thinks says or does how do you catch bullies in anything other then a "he said she said" type of situation where there is no proof one way or the other?  Again this crosses the line into a police state and it is a place I never want to go.

well for one thing, if the adults keep a better eye on the kids, then it won't be "he said she said", it will be "bully said, adult saw and heard"

Oh and if you think it was easy for me to learn how to deal with bullies you should talk to me mom about the number of times I came home crying but I learned that they couldn't make me change and they couldn't control my life so they had no real power and were just frittering away their own lives that could be spent doing something better.

 I know it wasn't easy for you.  Stop acting like it should have been easy for me when you know better.

I think you need to seek real help. You are letting something that happened to you years ago control the way you live your life and you are thinking about hurting other people to get even and you don't think there is anything wrong with this or you have any power to control it.

I am not trying to be insulting I am speaking as someone who has had to have my own problems treated and had to learn about this stuff and how messed up it can make you. What you describe in this thread sounds like it could be a real psychological problem and again without trying to insult you or dismiss your view point I urge you to seek help.

I am not saying you will flip out and go on a killing spree or that you are unable to function in the real world. I am just saying it sounds an awful lot like you have issues that have been effecting your quality of life for a long time and it you could use some help dealing with them.

Believe me I know how hard it is to seek help. I refused to get help when everyone around me told me I needed help for years and it nearly killed me.

You seem like a nice guy if you are having the kinds of problems and fantasies you describe in this thread please talk to someone professional to at least see if they think you need help before it hurts you or someone else.

Warb, DrCrow is some kind of manic depressive and I would just ignore him were I you.

yeah, you're right. 

DrCrow, I'm putting you on ignore for a bit.

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Most bullying that I hear people complaining about is name calling now yes in a class room you can put a stop to that but that is not where kids do it.

that is where kids did it to me, in school on school grounds.  The adults didn't do anywhere near enough to stop it.   We were not properly supervised on the playground during recess.   They had people out there with us that were supposed to be watching us, but they used more as time to gossip instead of keeping a good eye on us.  I've lost count of the number of times the bullies were able to do things to me right in the plain veiw of those that were supposed to be watching and failed to do anything about it. 

They do it out in public or in their own homes.

the bullies almost never did anything to me in my home,  They weren't allowed there.  The only thing they did do was crank call me a few times.   That can be handled by the law.

You can't stop name calling without attacking free speech so if you ask me that right there is setting up a police state.

funny, parents, teachers other adults regularly tell kids to stop name calling you really want to say that is a violation of the free speech?   Kids have a right to an opinion but do not have the right to harass other kids.;

I mean how long before it is decided that anyone who says anything negative about the president is bullying him and then it becomes a crime to not support the president? 

more asinine bs.

Don't tell me it couldn't happen because if the president says people are hurting his feelings isn't he being bullied and why shouldn't those mean people be made to stop?

for one thing, the free speech rights of adults are much less limited than that of children.

Not to mention that unless you have the government watching everything everyone thinks says or does how do you catch bullies in anything other then a "he said she said" type of situation where there is no proof one way or the other?  Again this crosses the line into a police state and it is a place I never want to go.

well for one thing, if the adults keep a better eye on the kids, then it won't be "he said she said", it will be "bully said, adult saw and heard"

Oh and if you think it was easy for me to learn how to deal with bullies you should talk to me mom about the number of times I came home crying but I learned that they couldn't make me change and they couldn't control my life so they had no real power and were just frittering away their own lives that could be spent doing something better.

 I know it wasn't easy for you.  Stop acting like it should have been easy for me when you know better.

 So again you are talking about locking up kids in some way so they are never out of site of adults and getting rid of free speech rights, how is that not the makings of a police state?

Also if the rights of kids can be taken away because they are not real citizens how long before the right of blacks, or jews, or other groups who don't do enough to count as "real citizens" come under assault? As I said I would rather air on the side of caution when it comes to rights.

The fact is any human interaction can turn violent, or cause you to feel bad about yourself. The only way to be 100% sure that it will never happen is just to avoid all human interactions. Also again you are describing grade school, so it wasn't really the bullies it was the teachers who were the problem and again do you really think it's healthy to let your life be defined by something that happened so long ago? Were you disabled by the fights? Are you in pain today because of them? Was what the other kids said about you true? if the answers to these questions is no then my view has always been why would it bother anyone?

The other issue is I think kids are getting too controlled these days. When I was a kid some of the best days of my life were the ones where the summer days where my friends and I would just take off and explore the town we lived in and not see an adult all day. It was by doing this that we developed our own tastes in books and discovered what we were really interested in doing with our lives and just relaxed in a way we could with our parents hanging around and trying to manage everything. Also we learned how to resolve and deal with conflicts because when one came up most of the time we would have to deal with it ourselves.  Every time I have had a job I have ended up getting put in charge of other people because despite some of my other issues my bosses are shocked by how good I am at resolving conflicts and instructing people and I learned those skills because of the freedom all the kids had when I was growing up. I have to wonder how kids are going to learn those skills today when they are told to just play the victim the first time someone says something they don't like and let someone else solve the problem for them.

Sorry but that's the way I see it. I think you have to give kids some freedom if they are going to grow up and that means that yes some times they are going to get hurt because the world isn't perfect and some times kids do stupid things. Does that mean that no effort should be made to protect children, of course not but if you go too far they will be unable to cope with the adult world and they will let little events from their childhood mess up their adult lives and I just don't think that is right. Sorry if this offends you but I have yet to hear how bullying can be stopped without a police state all I have heard is that it can without any details and I don't think you can stop something that has been going on since the dawn of time.

Everything in life can hurt you and while there are cases where the law needs to step in I think in most cases of school yard bullying adults are way over reacting these days and that the far better approach is to make sure kids learn the right lesson and react the right way.

There are only three ways to react to the past. You can run from it. Let it control you. Or learn from it. My personal choice is to go with the last one.

Oh and don't tell me this isn't a free speech issue when kids are being sent to jail for facebook posts that the government says are bullying.

Tell me that can not get out of hand real fast and be a threat to everyone's rights a few years down the line?

I think DrCrow is making plenty of valid points, and I agree with him on several of them, though certainly not all.

Something that must be taken into consideration here is that bullying may have a vastly different effect on one person to another. Now that I've thought of it, I realize there have been several times I have been bullied and times I have participated in bullying, but the former never got to me. I participated in bullying a few times at a point in my life in which I was trying to fit in too much. I had been socially awkward and felt out of place before that, and I went too far in the other direction. I made a decision to change, and be an individual rather than part of the crowd after realizing where I had gone wrong.

Warbler strikes me as a sensitive, emotional kind of guy (I'm in no way insinuating that those are negative characteristics), and he is thus far more likely to be affected by personal attacks and bullying. DrCrow seems far less so, and quite resembles a sociopathic friend of mine in the way he often writes. I don't mean to imagine any psychological problems onto him, but merely intend to observe that he doesn't seem to be the type who would be as affected by bullying.

So the solution does not lie in his proposal (not fully, anyhow), nor entirely in Warbler's, who has a very negative view of bullies. Some people can get by by being taught to deal with bullies. Others, need to have other help.

RicOlie_2 said:

I think DrCrow is making plenty of valid points, and I agree with him on several of them, though certainly not all.

Something that must be taken into consideration here is that bullying may have a vastly different effect on one person to another. Now that I've thought of it, I realize there have been several times I have been bullied and times I have participated in bullying, but the former never got to me. I participated in bullying a few times at a point in my life in which I was trying to fit in too much. I had been socially awkward and felt out of place before that, and I went too far in the other direction. I made a decision to change, and be an individual rather than part of the crowd after realizing where I had gone wrong.

Warbler strikes me as a sensitive, emotional kind of guy (I'm in no way insinuating that those are negative characteristics), and he is thus far more likely to be affected by personal attacks and bullying. DrCrow seems far less so, and quite resembles a sociopathic friend of mine in the way he often writes. I don't mean to imagine any psychological problems onto him, but merely intend to observe that he doesn't seem to be the type who would be as affected by bullying.

So the solution does not lie in his proposal (not fully, anyhow), nor entirely in Warbler's, who has a very negative view of bullies. Some people can get by by being taught to deal with bullies. Others, need to have other help.

 That's a pretty good summing up, thank you.

I guess since history is my big subject I am always just a little afraid of the way human will blow a problem up out of all proportion and then in the efforts to stamp out that problem will trample on freedoms to do it be it at witch trials, comic book violence, or fear of enemy agents working within the borders of your country. I don't want to see this issue become the latest excuse to take away people's freedoms and bullying can be so broadly defined and is so hated that I think it could be. That and the fact that I find it a little worrying when kids grow up unable to handle problems on their own are my biggest concerns.

I agree. I certainly don't want to see it become illegal to insult people, or something dumb like that, because it limits free speech and also is so open to interpretation that all sorts of trouble would come from it. That is not something that any government should be involved in, so we need to watch how we deal with this problem. The truth is that there is no one solution to bullying, but we often try to treat it as if there were. It is something that ought to ideally be addressed case by case, on a personal basis. Unfortunately, that often isn't possible.

RicOlie_2 said:

I agree. I certainly don't want to see it become illegal to insult people, or something dumb like that, because it limits free speech and also is so open to interpretation that all sorts of trouble would come from it. That is not something that any government should be involved in, so we need to watch how we deal with this problem. The truth is that there is no one solution to bullying, but we often try to treat it as if there were. It is something that ought to ideally be addressed case by case, on a personal basis. Unfortunately, that often isn't possible.

 Yeah sadly I think that is true and where the danger lays because it always seems like we get into trouble when we try to find one answer to a problem as broad as this one.

Just to be clear I don't think bullying should be swept under the rug, when I was kid one of the reasons I was picked on was I would stand up for other kids that were being picked on. I just don't think that there is one solution to the problem and that we have to be careful. I also don't believe it does as much damage as we give it credit for if it is handled right and sadly there will always be bullies so to a certain extend kids have to learn how to deal with them when no one else is around.