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The middle ground...or how I learned to relax and stop worrying where I fit in.

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Well some discussions here lately got me thinking about something that pops into my head every now and again when thinking of Star Wars and more particularly Star Wars fandom..

We have a fairly eclectic and representative bunch here although due to the nature of the the site itself it leans more towards fans who many would consider more "hardcore" in nature.Not my opinion but we are probably largely viewed that way externally I believe.We are not as blindly supportive as those on TF.N however more recently there has been more of the serious Lucas-bashing than is my taste.Everyone is of course free to view their opinions and no-one is liable to get banned for it.

So onto what I was thinking about and this is purely a personal view and I cannot generalise and I may be wrong of course.As I say every now and again (and I am not a highly frequent poster and very rarely a topic starter) there are those of you who know me better than others and there are some people here I hold in the highest regard.I have a personal relationship with Star Wars that I will explain a little further.

When I was a child I had some terrible things happen to me-I mean first degree shitty and I wont go into specifics suffice to say that it is practically unheard of even today.Anyway throughout all this I had something that kept me going and gave me inspiration and hope and that was the original Star Wars trilogy and particularly the original Star Wars.It holds a very special place in my heart and my life.

I love everything about ANH and the original trilogy.I really do.I felt hugely let down and aggravated by the special editions hence my membership here.That said however I enjoy the prequels and ROTS in particular is one of my favourite movies.I honestly love it.TPM and AOTC I can take or leave and this is the crux of my point.I believe there is a middle ground that consists of mainly this:

Original trilogy held in highest possible regard

Special editions tolerated but as a curiosity

TPM and AOTC quite enjoyable and ROTS very liked

Clone Wars seen as a kids summer distraction

Occasionally pick up a Star Wars book/EU/the like

I see myself as on the fringe of this kind of group-being a prop collector tends to lean me more towards the hardcore geek naturally!I believe the middle ground is neither as blindly worshipful of George nor as hardily cynical/bitter as some of the sections of the fan community.I learned to stop worrying or justifying what I love about what parts of Star Wars I love a long time ago as everyone is entitled to their opinion  and this is where we fall down as fans a lot of the time.This seemingly endless war of words with each other to get each other to change each other's minds and tell each other we're wrong!I mean just because skyjedi thinks Lucas is a total scumbag and whore doesn't mean I have to agree with him and nor does it mean he will change my mind.He's free to express it though as long as I am free to express mine.Nothing wrong with that.I am quite completely sure that naming my youngest son Lucas wouldn't be the choice of many here but George made ANH and it got me through very dark times in my life and it was my small tribute to the man (which possibly also leans me more towards geek territory!).

I am not sure there was a point to all this.I was just thinking and thought I would write it down for people to discuss and share their views-which is another reason I am a member here and not TF.N!!!!

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First off, I want to say that I totally agree that relaxing and not stressing or blowing an artery when it comes to our fandom is a great idea, and one that I whole-heartedly agree with.  And Star Wars does hold a high place in all of our hearts.  We wouldn't be here if that wasn't true.  That said, I doubt most of the people who post here really take it as seriously as they seem.  Obviously, being a Star Wars website, our views of other people are pretty limited... limited to Star Wars.  So just because someone rants around here doesn't meant that they think much of it when they're not here.  I have to admit that, even though I haven't thought too highly of the new Clone Wars movie, it's been exciting solely because it invigorated more debate and discussion.  Up until last month I really hadn't followed the General Star Wars boards in several months.  And keep in mind this is coming from the guy who's constantly saying he wishes Star Wars would stop putting out new material entirely!

As far as a middle ground goes, I don't think there is a set criteria for people who take a middle ground.  I think of a middle ground as someone who, like you said, neither worships and reveres every movie change, release, or every one of Lucas's lies as gospel, nor bitch and moan and post about how they wish Lucas would die or something equally morbid and cruel.  Other than that, I don't think there's going to be a set fandom rule of thumb for movie evaluation that's going to fit anybody.  For example, I consider myself a mostly middle of the road fan, but I don't accept the SEs at all, and I do enjoy watching the prequels on occasion (even though they sometimes make me cringe and I don't have much respect for them, they are entertaining and a bit of a guilty pleasure), and I do have a modest selection of EU books (just bought and finished reading Splinter of the Mind's Eye).

Well, I do hope this thread inspires some lively debate!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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No debate here. I consider myself "middle of the road" too, but apparently it's a very wide middle.

I majored in film production in college, and all through it I tried to focus on special effects photography because Star Wars and my own hobby of building models was what got me interested in film and FX in the first place.

I can appreciate the SE changes from a technical and somewhat creative standpoint - matte cleanup, a lot of the re-done shots in the DS battle, expanded Cloud City entrance, etc. - without blindly agreeing with the character and story oriented changes like Greedo shooting first or Boba's "Jango" voice. I don't care one way or the other that there was a floating droid added behind the sandtroopers in Mos Eisley or that the continuity of the added windows in Cloud City isn't flawless. I appreciate the desire and effort to make the changes even if the end result wasn't what it could have been. As I said, I build models and it's a given in that hobby that every build is a learning experience one way or another.  You learn from your mistakes.  The SE changes are in the same vein - the desire to improve the original is admirable, it's just the execution went a bit awry here and there.

At the same time though, I can fully appreciate the desire to have the original theatrical version - warts and all - presented in its best possible light for no other reason than historical preservation. ANH was one of the first 25 films inducted into the National Archives of Film History PRIOR to the '97 SE's. That in itself is enough reason it should be given a proper DVD release. ESB and ROTJ complete the set, so obviously those need proper preservation as well.

Until such time though, Adywan's ANH:R is the perfect compromise between a proper restoration/preservation of ANH and the technical repairs and improvements of the SE's. I'm sure his ESB:R and ROTJ:R will be equally as well done as ANH:R was.

The prequels were fun to watch, but I didn't grow up with them so I don't feel that "connection" with those films as I do with the OT. Sure they have their flaws, but the OT has its share of zits and scars when you look real close, too, and not just technical/production issues.

As for EU, I used to collect the comics but I gave up on that a long time ago, mostly because of space and finances - I found I was spending so much money and using so much space accumulating these things but didn't have the time to enjoy reading them. Since then, other real world issues have taken priority. I don't hate the EU, I just don't have the time to invest in it beyond glancing at it in the bookstore every now and then.

So put me in the "middle of the road", but drifting from lane to lane depending on the traffic flow.

My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.

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Hmm, well, I'll start off by saying that people should be allowed to have their opinions on this matter. I like arguing aesthetics too much for me to say that discussing various matters about Star Wars and George Lucas can't be reasoned out with logical principles. However, it's just entertainment and we shouldn't be so angry at people for wanting to express what they like or dislike.

Otherwise, I came here because I wanted the originals on DVD (particularly after being horrified by the 2004 DVDs). Also, I'm a person who is working on fiction projects of my own and can't help but think about the mistakes George Lucas made and, in particular, how I would have done many things differently.

Other than that I can't really say I care about Star Wars as much as I discuss it on this site. Star Wars is my favorite movie of all time and all three movies mean a lot to me, but I know I've been dwelling on them (and George Lucas) more than I otherwise would have (lately). I guess I've mostly grown attached to the small community here. Also, I'll definitely be waiting for the films to be remastered on Blu-ray now. Will I leave this place and stop dwelling on Star Wars as much when that happens? I don't know.

As I said in another thread, it seems as if Star Wars might not be something we'll have to fight over in the bigger context of things. Eventually everything will come out. A restoration of the original films is inevitable in some way.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I have always said that the internet is a minority of SW fans, as you just hear the extremes.  All of my friends that are SW fans do not post on SW message boards, but all feel the same way about the SW movies:

-Love SW & ESB

-Have an affection for ROTJ, even though it is inferior to the first two movies

-Think the PT is OK, has its great moments offset by its bad moments, but don't hate George Lucas for them, they have just kinda forget them at this point and moved on

-Prefer the OOT over the SE

-Have read some older EU stuff from the Thrawn Trilogy days, but nothing new lately,

-No desire to see the Clone War movie.

-No desire to see the TV show

Now as I said, these fans don't post on SW boards, don't hate Lucas, they are all just SW fans who grew up with the OT in the 80's and still consider it their favorite trilogy of alltime.  They gave the PT a chance in the theaters, a chance on DVD, and even a chance on Spike, but it is just forgettable, but again no ill will towards George.  The people who gush about the PT at TFN and the ones who hate Lucas for the PT are definitely the minorities, and that is why the internet will never give a true representation of SW fandom.

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Just the other day, on another forum I go to, a middle-aged guy I know just revealed that he has only seen the original Star Wars. He apparently didn't see the need to watch the others. That goes to show what kind of a phenomena the original movie was in comparison to everything that came after. As good as Empire Strikes Back is, the original Star Wars deserves even a place above that.

When remembering the mainstream view of Star Wars, that's a huge segment of the population.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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^^ I miss Anchorhead. I haven't seen a post from him in ages.

On topic. I agree with everything said here completely.

You only get the extreme views on Star Wars because it's teh internets. My Star Wars nerd factor is amplified by this site, otherwise I spend little of my day Star Wars-ing, apart from the occassional movie viewing.

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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I too very much agree what this thread is sayning. I like it.

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Well what do you know?The rarest of all things on an SW forum!

Consensus!

Seriously though thanks for all the thoughts guys.Interesting to hear all the views here and cool that it is done in the right spirit.Wasn't sure if my ramblings were coming across the way I intended.I also agree that due to the somewhat surprisingly,due to the population online,insular nature of the net fandom and SW sites that it will never be truly representative.Most of my friends who are SW fans have similarly moved on to other things but always really love the films and bear no ill will to Lucas.They just see the franchise as over-which for all intents and purposes it largely is of course.Certainly as a film franchise I view it as over but that wont stop me loving what I love about it.It just means that until such time as there is another live action film (which I also feel is inevitable at some stage) I will remain in this middle ground or slightly to the left of it with my collecting of the props used in the films which along with my family and the SW films is my other real passion.I may read the odd EU book here or there and I will play force unleashed but that is about the extent of my involvement .OT.com and rebelscum are the only SW boards I am a member of and here the only one I would post on to any extent as I generally enjoy the discussion here and respect the ethos of it and the preservation work done here.

Anyway once again thanks for all your input folks.

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There was a time when I would have been considered a 'hardcore' Star Wars fan- I loved every Star Wars movie, and thought George Lucas was a genius. He could do no wrong. Then came the Special Editions.....and the prequels. I was then in a position of only loving half of the Star Wars movies, and thinking I had seriously overestimated George Lucas' talent.

So, now I guess I'd be considered a "middle of the road" fan, since I don't like the prequels or the EU (I've only read 2 EU books and of those the only one I really liked was Splinter).

But, I still consider myself a hardcore fan, because to me there are still only 3 Star Wars movies and I'm a hardcore fan of those, and of the related memorabilia. 

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Mielr said:

and thinking I had seriously overestimated George Lucas' talent.

Amen to that. In fact, I had a lot of anger poured into that one (and am still bugged by it to a degree). I felt seriously lied to. Also, I began to realize all of the other talented people who helped George but are incredibly overlooked, which was even worse. The guy was talented once, sure, but he was also lucky in many ways.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I think more of us--most of us--here are of this mindset than seems apparent. The thing is this forum is a place for many of us to vent anger, it was a creation born out of negative backlash, so the flaws we percieve in the franchise become bigger issues in our lives than they actually are--I don't mean that we really are okay with stuff like the PT but just pretend like we hate it, but rather that these things roll of our backs with greater ease than may be expected. I think this is sort of what the common fan is like anyway; dislike the majority of the franchise because its so big nowadays, but nonetheless concentrates on that minority that makes it special and thus is super-devoted.

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The gout pretty much put everything in repective for me how little george cares for the fans who loved the originals from 1977-1983. 

Someone said this on the gout in the special edition vs originals tread

"Lucasfilm held up a bold middle-finger to all the fans who campaigned for these DVD's for so long. Lucas could use the money in his pocket to pay for a remastering of these, and he's too much of a self-absorbed douche-bag to do so."

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I am liking this thread.  It is nice to get behind the ideas of the fans and critics and see where they come from. 

I don't know if I am middle ground anymore, but I can still see it from here.  I used to a PT defender, but after a while, I moved away from that after...

1. I could still consider myself a fan if I actually didn't think the prequels were that good.  I didn't need to pretend everything was still OK in the SW universe.  While parts of the prequels were entertaining, I still could face the reality that the new movies had problems.

2. I realized that just because the prequels dealt in archetypes and some of the same mythic themes as the classic trilogy, it doesn't overcome flat acting, dialogue and bad decisions from the directors chair.

and

3. Lastly, I felt like I could 'grow up' a lot as a fan.  It was a chance for me to put away the SW tshirts and toys (mostly) and stop reading the comics and EU novels.  Not that I was a big EU fan anyway...  But it was a way to move away from the stereotypical 'dresses up in costumes for the big con' and the 'still lives in Mom's basement' type of fan.  Apologies to any costume makers out there. 

So now I enjoy the classic trilogy as great sci-fi/fantasy/space opera movies.  I love reading and researching the production of the first three films.  And, most importantly, it is like Bill Moyers once said "It is a lot of fun to watch Star Wars." 

Star Wars is a fun place to visit, I just don't need to live there.