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The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread — Page 4

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Great start, InfroDroid. Your mixmatching and flipflopping of various clips was very creative and put the duel much more in line with the others we see in the OT. The music choices work perfectly in some parts, but not so much in others. The first piece of music is one of my favorite cues in RotS, when Yoda blocks Sidious and they ignite their lightsabers. Being so, I wouldn't want to repeat it again in a very similar scenario in the following film. I'm all for music alterations, but let's not be tracking ourselves note for note or we fall into the trap of AotC (and to a lesser extent RotS). One very out of place cue was the big crescendo when the droids make their way to the ship. What I liked so much about the original clip I posted was although the music jumped around, everything was appropriate for its accompanying visuals. What you've done is definitely a great groundwork, but I think we can make it even better with the right musical cues in the right places. The key thing for me really is Obi-Wan's death and the Falcon's escape. That bit was perfect on the one I posted; also TM has said he doesn't want to use that music in its place in RotS, so it wouldn't be a repeated track. I also think it should start out with low, ominous and mysterious music; obviously not the same track as used in the first clip (coming from Padme's Ruminations) but something along those lines. So take it or leave it but those or my thoughts.

And I can't tell you how pleased I am with your support of my RotJ ideas! I thought for sure someone would accuse me of heresy, but based on some of you guys' suggestions I shouldn't be surprised to be welcomed with open arms.

MTH, I'll respond more indepth to your post another time. For now though, Long Live the Ranch!
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I've read through, the ideas here and, I do think it is interesting what people are coming up with here. I do like the idea of taking away Obiwan's lie. I wonder how your going to construct the Empire scene and, the jedi scene's with this in mind. Mabye something like this for the empire scene:
"Obiwan never told you what happened to your father"
"He told me enough"
"Did he? Then you know."
(luke doesn't say anything and, just moves farther down on the thing he's holding.)
"Obiwan killed your father"
"That's not true! That's not possible!"
"Join me and, we can (close-up of Luke) rule the galaxy!"
(luke jumps)

Though, that's just becuase, I read that you want him to say Obiwan killed his father... The "Then you know" part might be hard to find I don't know if Vader actually says that in the movies.... Mabye you could replace it with "search your feelings"...


http://twister111.tumblr.com
Previous Signature preservation link

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Hi, everyone! I’m sorry for my amazing lack of input on this project- when I get some more time, I will definitely drop some suggestions. In the meantime…

I would agree with the people warning against “de-aging” these movies. If it were me, I would use as much footage from the original as possible (the original establishing shot of Ben’s hut, no stupid looking Star Trek explosions, the original aliens in the cantina, no “funny” droid antics in Mos Eisley, no rontos, no little droids hovering around the stormtroopers and distracting you from the dialogue…the list goes on and on).

InfoDroid- we also need to figure out what we’re doing for subtitles so that we are consistent.

And finally, Commander Courage, those ideas for ROTJ are incredible! If MTH wants to have a go at it, great, but otherwise I’d really like this project to do myself, in full knowledge that I could go back and watch the original if I wanted. If this was done properly with a good style to it, this could be phenomenal. I LOVE how Luke has been continuing his training with Yoda- I never liked the way that Luke suddenly “became” a Jedi in between TESB and ROTJ with no training. Also, this covers Yoda’s extremely implausible death just as Luke shows up. I suppose it would be assumed that Yoda never told Luke the truth when he returned, and that he was just now telling him because of his death. And Luke is confronted with the knowledge that Vader is his father at the beginning of the movie, giving him more time to stew over it and think about his father. The crawl could use a little work, though. I also like the Emperor’s arrival pushed ahead in the movie. It does work well with Ben’s last line. I’m LOVING this, honestly. And another thing to remember is that if I did this, it would come out a LOT quicker than SOTDS. No manipulating the colors, no dubbing, no rethinking of the story, etc. etc.

But I still won’t touch Star Wars and Empire. I’m not going to give many suggestions on that, as they would mostly be “Don’t do that” and “Leave that the way it is” and so on, and then I probably wouldn’t even watch them. One thing I will say, though, is that I really hope you don’t tamper with the “I am your father” scene in Empire, and the Obi-Wan stuff. I really don’t have a problem with it, and I can sympathize with Obi-Wan. The line change, “I wanted you to have this when you were old enough” I would encourage, though. Then, I would try to work in some Yoda dialogue at the end of Episode III (as CC suggested) that would rationalize Obi-Wan’s holding back the truth from Luke.

But making Ben tell Luke on Tatooine or on Dagobah could not be edited naturally, and I think it would create too many fundamental problems. More later on why it won’t work… (not to sound pessimistic)

But I wish you all luck creating a timeline and a story flow. Perhaps we’ll eventually get to a backstory for the Jedi/Sith relationship (before Episode I).

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Sorry for the double post...

One other little thing I'd personally like changed is the title of this saga. Don't ask me why, but for some reason the "Ranch" edition reminds me of the salad dressing. Don't ask why- I can be peculiar like that. Is there another title we could use?

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Originally posted by: Trooperman
Don't ask me why, but for some reason the "Ranch" edition reminds me of the salad dressing. Don't ask why- I can be peculiar like that. Is there another title we could use?


Sure. How about "The Hidden Valley" Edit?

Any suggestions?

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Originally posted by: Hardcore Legend
That sites d/l speed blows, but that edit is much better. The ending needs alittle bit of work, but it's must stronger than that other mess.

Thanks. I would've done Rapidshare but they have a 100mb limit now.

It's a shame that you can't tinker with them in a 'clutched' position, so it looks like they are struggling back and forth at a moment, almost at an empass.

I probably could.

I would add in some more dialogue from Vader or some off screen stuff from Ben. Possibly a Vader "You don't know the Power of the Dark Side" right after Obi Wan smiles and right before Vader strikes him. Re-using some frames, or just playing them back again...it would allow for the score to sync up alittle bit more or finish and would also look back towards "You underestimate my powers".

Good idea. I'll definitely try it.

MTHaslett wrote: But that issue aside -- I think InfoDroid could do a quicker pass through ANH to add the few ques and tweaks that blend it into Episode III without changing that beat and finish faster. Maybe that's wisest at this point since we all know Trooperman doesn't want to change it. There's still plenty to tweak and construct -- I think it's necessary to get the Emperor at least one scene in ANH (and we do have material we plan to cut from the prequels available to us).


Maybe that's a better idea, MTH. To be honest, not a whole lot needs to change in the OT. Not like the Prequels. Except for a few things that HAVE to change.

Commander Courage wrote: I'm all for music alterations, but let's not be tracking ourselves note for note or we fall into the trap of AotC (and to a lesser extent RotS). One very out of place cue was the big crescendo when the droids make their way to the ship. What I liked so much about the original clip I posted was although the music jumped around, everything was appropriate for its accompanying visuals. What you've done is definitely a great groundwork, but I think we can make it even better with the right musical cues in the right places. The key thing for me really is Obi-Wan's death and the Falcon's escape. That bit was perfect on the one I posted; also TM has said he doesn't want to use that music in its place in RotS, so it wouldn't be a repeated track. I also think it should start out with low, ominous and mysterious music; obviously not the same track as used in the first clip (coming from Padme's Ruminations) but something along those lines. So take it or leave it but those or my thoughts.


All right, well that's why I put it out there. Now I fear maybe I've jumped the gun in posting it. You've made some valid points, and I'll work to make it better.

I would agree with the people warning against “de-aging” these movies. If it were me, I would use as much footage from the original as possible (the original establishing shot of Ben’s hut, no stupid looking Star Trek explosions, the original aliens in the cantina, no “funny” droid antics in Mos Eisley, no rontos, no little droids hovering around the stormtroopers and distracting you from the dialogue…the list goes on and on).


That's the route we'll go then, if you can assure me it's going to match up with the other films.

InfoDroid- we also need to figure out what we’re doing for subtitles so that we are consistent.


Definitely. Episode I will require the most amount of subtitles. So, I guess we need to figure out what we're doing with that first.

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I have just noticed this thread today and wanted to offer my support. Sounds great, can't wait.

War does not make one great.

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Originally posted by: InfoDroid
Originally posted by: Trooperman
Don't ask me why, but for some reason the "Ranch" edition reminds me of the salad dressing. Don't ask why- I can be peculiar like that. Is there another title we could use?


Sure. How about "The Hidden Valley" Edit?


I was thinking maybe "Starkiller Ranch"?

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Trooperman -- if you would do ROTJ, that's great news to me!

I worked on my ideas for editing Jabba's Palace sequence last night and found that the material is there to make something much more sensible and thrilling. There are many jokes that create a tone that makes me cringe. But with CC's strategy, the idea of cutting the jokes as part of a new narrative really worked.

In brief (beause I don't have time now) I have a way to let Leia's plan be in action before Luke arrives-- essentially covering the gap we're creating by having Luke go get training while letting Han just hang around frozen in Jabba's clutches. Then Luke's arrival and "plan" come across as more daring and less blind-frickin'-lucky.

The droids appearance gets moved back, thus keeping the tone darker before their arrival. The whole sequence of Leia arriving as the bounty hunter plays out with subtitles and no Threepio.

So it goes:

Darth Vader arrives at Death Star II
Luke finishes training
The Emperor arrives at Death Star II
Jabba takes delivery of Chewbacca (cut the obvious reveal of Lando -- use his later reveal with Leia)
Leia takes Han out of the carbonite -- caught (cut down the over-the-top humor -- keep a more ESB tone)
The droids walk toward the palace-- hand themselves over to Jabba.
The droids get reassigned (cut the "torture" of other droids -- a truly stupid idea)
Jabba kills his dancer
Luke arrives -- scarrier, faster fighting.
Luke USES THE FORCE to bring door down on monster.
Han and Luke struggle as they're dragged before Jabba (cut the hilarious banter down)
Go to Sarlac (cut the banter down some more -- I don't think we need the "I was born here/You're going to die here" exchange or the "Tell that fat bastard he'll get no such satisfaction from us!" -- that just doesn't sound like Han Solo. Han taking the threat silently sounds more correct to my ears. Cut that in favor of going directly to Luke's threat "This is your last chance!" That should, I suggest, be Luke's FIRST threat if possible since Jabba sentenced him. The others ring very hollow and boistrous).
Cut the fight to be faster.
Can Boba be defeated by a laser blast instead of a stick in the ass?
Let Han helping Lando go faster: "Trust me" BEEOW! Less begging from Lando.

Like that. What do you think?

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Oh-- and one more thing-- cut out that band. Trooperman, you can find appropriate big-band sounds, I believe. Something more in line with the Cantina band and the song you added in SOTD's cantina?

THis New Wave sound is awful. I also think that about 1/2 second of seeing that big blue elephant on vibes is all anyone needs to see of him.

And am I the only one who hates those big green pig guards?

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Last night I was thinking. Before Obi Wan grins as he gives up, how about throwing this in:

ObiWan: Anakin...
Darth Vader:...No longer exists

Obi Wan grins

Darth Vader: You don't know the power of the Dark Side

Vader swings.

This cleans up the problem of "Obi Wan once thought as you do". Just like in ROTS, Obi Wan makes one final plea.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Hardcore Legend: Good point about the "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" line.

I don't think it'll work in the duel because we don't have the souce material for lines like "No longer exists..."

BUT, in ROTJ Vader's line could be changed to "Padme once thought as you do." Using the "Padme" from ROTS. She was the one who felt there was still good in him. She was the one who confronted him and told him he could come back with her. Ideally, he'd say "Your Mother", but since Vader never said that, I think Padme would work just as well.

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Well, we have Vader saying...."No longer" and "Alive", so you you always splice those together and try that.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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This is great stuff. I like the idea of removing Obi-Wan's lie, but that doesn't mean you can't still use Commander Courage's idea of starting ROTJ on Dagobah. The problem then is that in the Official cut of ROTJ, Luke says he cannot kill his father, but in ESB, Before he knew the truth of his parentage, he was all for running off to Bespin to deal with DV, so if you go with Obi-Wan revealing in his hut, how do you explain Luke's willingness to face Vader in ESB but not so keen in ROTJ?

It always bugged me that Luke deserted his training in ESB then turns up a year later to find Yoda on his death bed, asks about his Dad, then leaves with Yoda all but confirming that he is a Jedi Knight bar one task - facing Vader. What a crappy student!! And he has the nerve to call himself a Jedi Knight in front of Jabba. So how about this - Put Luke returning to Dagobah at the end of ESB!! When Luke say's to Lando and Chewie may the force be with you over the comlink as they fly off to find Han, you could dub in Luke's line from ROTJ when he says to R2 'We're going to the Dagobah system. I have apromise to keep... to an old friend'. only this time he will be speaking the line to Lando over the comlink (might even be able to find some dialogue of Lando saying 'what about you?' or something like that (there is actually a similar line in the sand storm scene which has Han asking Luke to join them on the falcon and Luke saying 'I have a promise I have to keep first... to an old friend'. which would be perfect if it could be ripped. We then cut to Luke on Dagobah, Yoda's confirmation of Vader as Dad, then he dies and the movie ends. Luke knows what he must do, and in the next movie, he does it.

To solve the problem of the really poor rescue attempt at the Start of Jedi, would it maybe be possible to have a title crawl that explains that Lando, Chewie, Leia and the droids all tried to rescue Han but never returned, and the movie then begins with Luke's arrival and Leia alraedy chained to Jabba, etc. Of course, you then have the question of Han being thawed... But maybe when Luke requests that Han is set free, We cut to Jabba's 'I like captain solo where he is' line and show Han frozen. Luke is then dropped into the Rancor's den and when he kills the Rancor, Jabba is so angry he says 'that's it, I am outraged' (or words to that effect, all done with subtitles, of course). He then orders his minions to thaw solo and bring him before him. Leia in Boussh disguise could double as one of Jabba's men. Boussh thaws Han and with some voice dubbing, instead of telling Han 'you are free of the carbonite, blah blah blah' says something like ' you'll wish you were still frozen when you hear what Jabba has in store for you'. Then the sail barge and all that stuff plays out as usual. the lightsabre hidden in R2...Well, that could just have been a plan B failsafe that Luke thought of or, perhaps with some incredible (and probably impossible) CG trickery, we could have R2 arrive with Luke... To be honest I don't know why he didn't just walk in there wielding a lightsabre and say 'Jabba, hand over my friends or I'm gonna start slicing and dicing'. I mean, if it's gonna get messy, why wait till you are on the end of a plank over the sarlaac to then catch your lightsabre and start fighting. It's not like he was searched for weapons when he came in (he mind tricked the pig gaurds at the door and tried to fire Jabba with a blaster.... kinda dumb really).

I realise this is all Waaaayyy out ther, but I think it could work. I just don't know how to do it... but maybe you can at least use some of my ideas to take you down other paths of thought.

War does not make one great.

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Hardcore Legend,

So, that sounds natural to you?

Obi-Wan: "Anakin..."
Vader: "No longer alive..."

Just so I'm clear, is that what you're suggesting?

Yoda Is Your Father said: When Luke say's to Lando and Chewie may the force be with you over the comlink as they fly off to find Han, you could dub in Luke's line from ROTJ when he says to R2 'We're going to the Dagobah system. I have apromise to keep... to an old friend'. only this time he will be speaking the line to Lando over the comlink (might even be able to find some dialogue of Lando saying 'what about you?' or something like that (there is actually a similar line in the sand storm scene which has Han asking Luke to join them on the falcon and Luke saying 'I have a promise I have to keep first... to an old friend'. which would be perfect if it could be ripped. We then cut to Luke on Dagobah, Yoda's confirmation of Vader as Dad, then he dies and the movie ends. Luke knows what he must do, and in the next movie, he does it.


I really like that idea! That could definitely work.

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For those of you who are thinking of alternative ROTJ plots, give this a read:

http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts/revenge_revised_rough_draft.htm

This is the original script for Revenge of the Jedi and it has a more serious tone and alternate plot points going on throughout the movie. It is a very intersting read of what "could" have been for ROTJ. I thought you guys could get some good ideas. And the radio dramas as well, didn't Billy Dee williams do the voice for lando? I know we have mark hamill and anthony daniels reprising their voice roles, so there is ALOT of new material to work with there.

Also , I posted a couple of pages back on the idea of changing the scene with Vader and the holo emperor in ESB to reveal something more intesting then: Luke skywalker is the son of Anakin.....no shit. I didn't see any comments on it, so I thought I would just remind everybody that that scene needs some "flavor" to it as well, considering it is the first time you see vader and the emperor together AT ALL. I think that the "saga" version is not having the Vader Born scene in Ep. III , so this will be the first time you ever see the two of them talking or in cahoots (I was looking for a chance to say that word). Any ideas? This discussion we are having is completely addictive. I love where the ROTJ edit is going, alot. Keep posting guys!
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With the ROTJ edit, for the love of Pete please lose the burping from the Sarlaac and the rock wort creature outside Jabba'a palace?
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
I worked on my ideas for editing Jabba's Palace sequence last night and found that the material is there to make something much more sensible and thrilling. There are many jokes that create a tone that makes me cringe. But with CC's strategy, the idea of cutting the jokes as part of a new narrative really worked.

In brief (beause I don't have time now) I have a way to let Leia's plan be in action before Luke arrives-- essentially covering the gap we're creating by having Luke go get training while letting Han just hang around frozen in Jabba's clutches. Then Luke's arrival and "plan" come across as more daring and less blind-frickin'-lucky.

The droids appearance gets moved back, thus keeping the tone darker before their arrival. The whole sequence of Leia arriving as the bounty hunter plays out with subtitles and no Threepio.


I think you have something there with most of it, but at least some of the comments by Han and Luke have to stay in, I think. Something we disagree on -- a big surprise, right?

The comments back and forth between the two friends show the anticipation they must feel for what Han fears will happen, and for what Luke has planned to happen. Han's always struck me as a sarcastic smart-ass, so I'm more comfortable with comments and false bravado than just silence to hide the fear he would surely be feeling on a barge that's taking him to his apparent death. Keeping in mind that he has limited sight at this point, he'd be trying to compensate for his lack of control over the situation, trying to hide the fear he feels for being in a situation he can't control, not knowing what is coming. I always took his comments to Jabba as defiance. Like he feels the need to show that no matter what Jabba and his henchmen do, his spirit will never be broken. None of this is really out of line with his previous appearances, at least in my mind.

On other points, and these are just things I'm throwing out as the Devil's advocate....

We open with Leia handing over Chewie, with Lando not revealed yet if possible. We have plenty of establishing shots of exteriors on Tatooine to work with here.
Luke finishes his training on Dagobah. Yoda dies, telling Luke that he must face Vader to become a full Jedi.
Vader arrives at DSII.
Leia is captured after freeing Han from the carbonite.
Luke leave's Yoda's hut and sees Ben. They talk before Luke leaves.
The droids show up at Jabba's. (and yes, the droid torture certainly has to go)
The Emperor arrives at DS II
Luke arrives at Jabba's. I agree that Luke should be able to use the Force to bring down the door on the Rancor.
From here, the movie continues as originally devised, with the exceptions of some dialogue and action edits to make the escape from the barge more of a daring act of heroism than luck (though I once again point to Obi-Wan's comments from ANH on the Falcon about luck...)

That's just off the top of my head after work today.

I'm wondering if perhaps one of the biggest changes might be that we could somehow incorporate the much-rumored death of Lando and the loss of the Falcon in the destruction of DS II, so Han doesn't seem like a totally out of character crybaby idiot when he says he doesn't think he'll see the Falcon again. We could eliminate the bit where he talks Lando into taking the Falcon. Just cut in like it's the end of a conversation, and he's giving reluctant permission to use the reliable freighter, on the condition "not a scratch." I always thought it was pretty poorly written that Han changes tune so drastically in that scene. One minute he's trying to get Lando to take the MF, and then he's almost crying because Lando might get a scratch on her in a heavy combat zone. One way or the other, please -- not the half-assed way it was written. If we decided not to add Lando's death, perhaps we could instead cut the lines where Han makes him promise not to get a scratch and also where he worries that he won't see the Falcon again. Once again -- one way or the other, please.

We also need to cut down on the Ewoks scenes, or at least have them not so cutesied-up. It's a shame we can't figure out a way to exchange them for the Wookies from ROTS....

Comments anyone?
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c35/damonhunter/TDHOpenerMini.jpg
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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I think if you tried to assume that lando and the falcon blew up on the DS II then you would DEFINATELY need a resolution scene for the loss of the character. But we don't have any footage of han talking about how brave lando was, or anybody even worrying about him at all. I just don't know how that could be accomplished. Oh, don't get me wrong, I wish that had happened in the original......but we were left with lando dancing and clapping all the way too the last shot. That's another thing, make the last shot of the movie iris out on the jedi spirits. I think that's a given, other than the "group picture" shot with the ewoks and everyone sipping on their endor beer. Just a thought.
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Maybe I need to be shown the light -- how do you account for the lying, Commander? What good did it do him to lie to Luke? I need to believe something big was gained by Obi Wan being so deceptive before I can be okay with this scene being in Episode IV. It works just fine in Star Wars, the stand alone movie as it was released and designed -- when it WASN'T a lie. But now it's a lie that, as far as I can figure, gets him exactly nowhere and sets Luke up for a terrible fall.
It was in Luke's best interest. He needs to focus on becoming a Jedi, not on his father not really being dead but instead the Emperor's right hand man and exterminator of the Jedi Knights. As Yoda said in RotJ, "Not ready for the burden were you." This is why I think a Yoda/Obi-Wan exchange establishing them keeping their lineage a secret from the children is essential. Of course Obi-Wan seems to not be sure what side to take: Does he ACTUALLY believe in his "truth" that Vader destroyed Anakin? Yoda says as much in RotS: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader." Or were he and Yoda just witholding the truth and devised that as a comfortable alternate to tell Luke until the time was right. I can't answer that, but I wish things had been a bit more clear in RotJ (which is why Lucas should release the deleted scenes!).

I'd like to beef up Han's story as well, CC. The main issue is that he is played as a second banana. He doesn't get to be a rogue, really. So he comes off as immasculated somewhat. I'd like to work in more skeptical and recognizable Han material and lose some of the beats that feel "off."
Well there's certainly enough Harrison Ford material out there to throw in some alternate dialogue here and there. I wouldn't want to cut too much of what's there already though; since going through the Carbonite ordeal Han is a changed man and would naturally behave to some extenet different than before.

De-aging OT: I think using Darth Editous' version of the OT will be a perfect compromise, as I had no problems with many of the SE additions and those I did take issue with DE has removed from his version. If there's anything inparticular someone has a problem with which is still in there we should definitely discuss it though. On a related note, I think we can all agree that the lightsabers in ANH require some serious re-rotoscoping for them to match the rest of the saga. ESB and RotJ to a lesser extent, but still some improvement is needed, most notably in colors and cores which were messed up in the DVDs.

MTH, good suggestions in regards to the Tatooine sequence. Obviously this section needs a lot of reworking. I especially like:
-Jabba takes delivery of Chewbacca (cut the obvious reveal of Lando -- use his later reveal with Leia)
-Leia takes Han out of the carbonite -- caught (cut down the over-the-top humor -- keep a more ESB tone)
-The droids get reassigned (cut the "torture" of other droids -- a truly stupid idea)
-Luke USES THE FORCE to bring door down on monster.
-Tell that fat bastard he'll get no such satisfaction from us!" -- that just doesn't sound like Han Solo. Han taking the threat silently sounds more correct to my ears. Cut that in favor of going directly to Luke's threat "This is your last chance!"
Eveything else (Han/Leia reuniting, Luke/Han banter, and SE line "It's okay I can see a lot better now!" (better than "Trust me!" IMO and humorous too) I have no problems with. Also I'm not too sure about moving the droids arrival to after Chewbacca and Leia arrive. There is potential there, but I don't know if it would flow correctly.

BUT, in ROTJ Vader's line could be changed to "Padme once thought as you do." Using the "Padme" from ROTS. She was the one who felt there was still good in him. She was the one who confronted him and told him he could come back with her. Ideally, he'd say "Your Mother", but since Vader never said that, I think Padme would work just as well.

Yes, excellent! This is on my short list of general changes to make to RotJ. "Padme" would be fine, but is there no way to replicate the Vader-Voice from other JEJ dialogue? This would open up a lot more oppoertunites, for the entire trilogy.

When Luke say's to Lando and Chewie may the force be with you over the comlink as they fly off to find Han, you could dub in Luke's line from ROTJ when he says to R2 'We're going to the Dagobah system. I have apromise to keep... to an old friend'. only this time he will be speaking the line to Lando over the comlink (might even be able to find some dialogue of Lando saying 'what about you?' or something like that

This is a good idea to use Luke's RotJ line and establish that he is indeed returning to Dagobah. So I like part 1 of your suggestion, but part 2 makes his visit feel just as contrived as the original: Showing up just as Yoda dies and not receving any further training. I really think my scenario of him training on Dagobah in between films is the best way to go as it addresses several plot points and makes sense of previously confusing situations (as a lay out in my earlier post).

We could eliminate the bit where he talks Lando into taking the Falcon. Just cut in like it's the end of a conversation, and he's giving reluctant permission to use the reliable freighter, on the condition "not a scratch." I always thought it was pretty poorly written that Han changes tune so drastically in that scene.

Yes, that was such a forced friendship scene. Cuttting the beginning would no doubt improve it. No Lando dying though, for various reasons I don't have time to go into right now.

Your order of events TheDemonHunter is another interesting take (SERIOUSLY mixing things up), but again I think my initial timeline serves the story flow best. I had consdiered starting out on Dagobah originally, with maybe even cutting Vader's arrival on the Death Star entirely, but this is Star Wars: you have to start in space. And teh Vader scene is great to begin with, so that's got to start off the film.

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What I was suggesting was:

Obi Wan (off screen): Anakin...
Vader (interrupting): is no longer ALIVE (using the one from Tantive)
**saber clash***

Luke and Han run out
Obi Wan looks over and grins

Vader:
You don't know the Power of the Dark Side

Swings and kills Obi Wan


This allows for when Luke says that he still believes Anakin 'still exists', and Vader says Obi Wan once thought as he does, it works. It also makes it appear as of Obi Wan still has the conflict in him between doing what must be done and killing his 'brother'. It also links Vader to Anakin's arrogance in the last battle. He has still not learned his lesson. He still thinks he is more powerful than Obi Wan, but yet again, Obi Wan wins, even after Obi Wan warns him that if he uses his power, Obi Wan will become only more powerful.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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So much to comment on -- wowwy wow wow.

-- "Obi Wan once thought as you do" definitely needs to be addressed -- in ANH. THAT is an important and missing beat for the "saga." It's unnatural for Obi Wan to fight Vader and not reach out to Anakin. There are definitely ways to get that dialogue in -- Obi Wan reaches out with his feelings -- "Anakin" (stolen from ROTJ echoed dialogue -- no lip synch problems) and some version of "That name means nothing to me" from Vader. The problem with using "Padme" to address this issue is that it dodges the real issue -- Obi Wan is facing Anakin in ANH, yet he never really addresses Anakin. Further, saying "Padme" to Luke has no meaning. Luke never ever heard Padme's name. It wouldn't work.

--I love "I hae a promise to keep... to an old friend" at the end of ESB. But the training has to be longer and come in ROTJ as CC suggests -- IMHO.

-- If Luke knew Vader was his father, his willingness to fight him in ESB would come from the fact that he believes his father is evil. But he sense more than that as Vader reaches out to him in their duel -- thus, Yoda's instruction to "face Vader" means more than "kill Vader." It means, as Luke divines, challenge Vader to return from the dark side.

-- I wish we could kill Lando/The Falcon. Definitely we must address this issue.

-- As to the Jabba sequence in ROTJ

I agree with the DH that some Han banter must always remain. But they wrote him as a comedian, every line is another joke (usually a lame one). It undermines the tension too much. The "now I see a light blur" line is fine, but "I grew up here/You're gonna die here" is unnatural and unfunny. Han knows Tatooine, Luke knows Han knows. It's just bad exposition -- "Don't forget, I came from Tatooine in Episode IV."

The idea that Han is "changed" by being frozen doesn't wash for me. Why would he be changed? He didn't experience anything while being frozen. It wasn't especially hard on him. He should have come out half-expecting to still be on Bespin. No change required, expected, or helpful to the story. His "change" as such might come when he tells Leia "I love you" on Endor.

I like some of the DH re-shuffle of my outline. I strenuously disagree with CC that the original order of the Jabba sequence flows best. It doesn't flow at all for me. It is so illogical that I can only shake my head at it. But if Chewie and Leia are captured and Han is thrown in with Chewie -- and we drop the reference that Luke is coming to save them -- then it becomes a real down beat, a real place of dramatic tension and a true continuation of ESB. Having all this before the droids walk up to the palace makes their walk much much better because now we know they're walking into real trouble. Of course we'll have to edit their dialogue, but the tension can be real now instead of being generated by the "stories I could tell you about this place."

There is a need for a sense of doom and danger to this sequence. Jabba should really feel scary. As it flows now, he seems like a joke.

I'd want to cut out almost every shot of his cackling little pet, reduce the shots of Green Pig guards by 1/2, eliminate all but one blue-elephant shots, and emphasize Jabba's ruthless and merciless nature.

Then, when Luke marches in -- we really wonder how he's going to pull it off. Then, when he does, we realize it was improvized because he's basically saving his over-eager friends who risked their lives to help Han too soon. They should have waited.

This re-ordering makes the plan better and makes Luke better.

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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Maybe I need to be shown the light -- how do you account for the lying, Commander? What good did it do him to lie to Luke? I need to believe something big was gained by Obi Wan being so deceptive before I can be okay with this scene being in Episode IV. It works just fine in Star Wars, the stand alone movie as it was released and designed -- when it WASN'T a lie. But now it's a lie that, as far as I can figure, gets him exactly nowhere and sets Luke up for a terrible fall.

It was in Luke's best interest. He needs to focus on becoming a Jedi, not on his father not really being dead but instead the Emperor's right hand man and exterminator of the Jedi Knights. As Yoda said in RotJ, "Not ready for the burden were you." This is why I think a Yoda/Obi-Wan exchange establishing them keeping their lineage a secret from the children is essential. Of course Obi-Wan seems to not be sure what side to take: Does he ACTUALLY believe in his "truth" that Vader destroyed Anakin? Yoda says as much in RotS: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader." Or were he and Yoda just witholding the truth and devised that as a comfortable alternate to tell Luke until the time was right. I can't answer that, but I wish things had been a bit more clear in RotJ (which is why Lucas should release the deleted scenes!).



That's not convincing to me. That's just justifying what is there, not explaining what good comes of it. Telling Luke the truth would be in his best interest because being told that the father you never knew was corrupted by temptation and turned bad does not handicap you. It could easily steel your resolve to not follow in his footsteps. Luke has no indication of an inability to tell good from bad. Only a simpleton needs to be "protected" from unpleasant truths. Yoda says Luke wasn't ready for the burden, but that's just another half-truth added in to justify the lie. The only burden Luke wasn't ready for was THE WAY he discovered the truth -- not the truth itself. He has no particular trouble understanding that evil Vader is his father. In fact, he rightly deduces there is still good in Vader where Obi Wan and Yoda believe there is not. They believe it would be truthful to say "a pupil of mine named Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker. The good man who was once your father died, replaced by Lord Vader." Aside from the part where there never was a pupil named Darth Vader, the part where NO ONE murdered Anakin, and the part where Luke can tell there's still an ember of Anakin still glowing inside of Darth Vader -- Obi Wan is being completely truthful. In other words, he bats ZERO with his "truth from a certain point of view" and achieves nothing except to devestate Luke when he goes to Bespin unprepared.

BUT...

I figured out something that would work for me-- and if we can't add it in, then I'll just have to keep it in the back of my mind somehow. It goes like this:

If Obi Wan and Yoda knew that Vader could sense Luke-- could feel him IF Luke knew the truth, then that might be worth keeping the secret. Jedi meditate, and they can reach across the Galaxy and sense things that happen in their feelings. If Luke knew Vader was his father, then Vader could discover Luke and come for him. This fits the timing of events -- for the point at which Obi Wan lies to Luke is a point where he has no plans regarding how to bring Vader down. He's simply watching over Luke and waiting... Leia finds him there, knowing that he's hiding out, sitting out the entire Rebellion so far. He's basically there to make sure Luke doesn't fall the wrong way or get snatched by Vader somehow. At the beginning of their adventure to save the Princess, it may be wise to keep the truth from Luke in case Vader were to sense them and jeopardize their mission. There will be a better time to tell him the truth... but then Ben dies.

I can sort of make that work for me. I wish this reason could have been established in Episode III and in the "log scene."

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Anyone got a "Aaggghhhh" Vader sound, of him yelling as he swings or something of the like. I've got the 'You don't know the power of the Dark Side' quote dropped in perfectly, but I need an emphatic 'attack' noise from Vader...showing his aggression.

Actually, I don't know which works better, because they are both chilling...but I'm bouncing between "If you only knew the Power of the Dark Side!"
The Jedi are all but extinct.......