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The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread — Page 3

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Originally posted by: TheDemonHunter
Personally, I feel that the reveal is not something that is "broken" in the saga. As THX said, having the audience know what Luke doesn't, does not ruin that moment. If you've seen the PT, you're just waiting for Luke to find out what the truth is. Seeing his reaction, seeing the look of betrayal and confusion on his face, that is what the scene is about.

I can understand the opinion that it's not broken since it is a much beloved part of the OT. But this point, along with the others you raise, have to be looked at in the context of the ENTIRE story of the Saga.

And that begs an analysis of the entire Saga upon which we can agree. In some respects, we may seem to disagree until we get more specific -- For example: Anakin is not the Main Character of the entire PT -- and I don't think anyone can seriously argue that he is as things stand. The reason I say this is that, although he's the Main Character of Episode II and III -- Qui Gon is the Main Character of Episode I. Anakin doesn't even show up until Act II of that story. He doesn't mean anything to that story until deep into Act II. But the PT is, I agree, SUPPOSED to be three movies about the fall of Anakin. That's the kind of problem I want to solve.

Originally, the OT was released as three movies about Luke Skywalker (with Han Solo getting his own Main Character Story tucked into Episode V). But that changed with the release of Episode I-- then came a second way of looking at the OT: as the second half of Anakin's story -- the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

From that point of view, the shift to Luke in Episode IV is undermined -- Episode IV is no longer "ACT I" in any way. It's more like Act II of the saga.

I don't agree that waiting until Episode V for Luke to find out something we already know is a good enough reason to sacrifice Obi Wan and Yoda's integrity. The BIG PICTURE is exactly what I'm trying to protect -- Big Picture character arcs should take higher priority over protecting any story beat -- no matter how beloved. If we have a beat that violates a character's arc then it should go. The idea that they are "protecting" Luke from the truth is just nonsense. Protecting him from what? Would he be less likely to want to help Leia and the Rebellion if Obi Wan treated him like an adult and told the truth? Of course not. It is not honorable, serves no purpose, and makes Obi Wan and Yoda chumps when their little lie nearly destroys the Galaxy. It was a necessary evil in the design of the "Reveal" as done in 1980. But it is not central to the Saga and I'd like to see it go.

The Parallels between the OT and PT Episodes are mere echoes -- thematic notions. They are not structural and fall apart at any high-resolution examination. Luke at the tree can hardly be equated with Anakin ACTUALLY killing Sandpeople babies in any serious way. These echoes or parallels will still be there anyway. But Luke's vulnerablity to the Dark Side would now come from his inexperience and from the sheer power available to him from the Force. It shouldn't come from exposing a lie told to him by Obi Wan. Preserving anything like that at the expense of character is what I consider getting caught up in details and missing the big picture.

I love the "migraine maker" and can't wait for that edit. I know we have a lot of talented and insightful minds posting here. There are many edits that will preserve the Obi Wan lie and attempt to justify it and leave in Luke's surprise discovery of his parentage. I hope that we can find a different way with this one.

A big reason for me comes during ROTJ. When you look at that movie on its own, it's a structural mess. It has wide gaps in any Main Character story, created by its various sub-plots. Luke's story lacks the cohesive feel of the first two movies. Han's not a Main Character in his own sub-plot anymore as it gets picked up from Leia's point of view. Lando gets a sub-plot that has very little character development. Vader suddenly acts as if he mourns the loss of his life as "Anakin" -- a past we didn't even know existed and which makes him very different from the villain he was for the first two films.

This last part was the weakest part for me when the movie came out. The Star Wars films so far had been excellent in great part because Vader was so bad -- strangling people and cutting down Jedi. It was hard for me to accept a Vader who said things like "It's too late for me, my son."

But...

With the PT -- all that material took life. Suddenly ROTJ had a Main Character -- VADER/ANAKIN. His story is not interrupted. He appears in the first scene and goes through a clear dramatic arc-- the completion of which brings a cap to the whole Saga. We were not aware that he could be a Main Character in the first release because we had no way of getting into his head. But watching it "in order," there's no way to stay OUT of his head. All those close ups and pauses as he leads Luke to the Emperor are now full of meaning -- Anakin, deep inside, is having second thoughts. That didn't work for Darth Vader -- but it works fine for Anakin Skywalker.

So the Saga has a clear "intended" arc. But each Episode has its own issues screwing things up.

Episode I has no Anakin story -- the kid just blunders his way into the Naboo battle and wins the day without a hint of awareness of anything important happening around him.

Episode II has a truly unlikable Anakin going through the motions of a crisis without generating any real emotion.

Episode III has a great sense of emotion and completion to Anakin's fall (despite various opinions about the details). But it completes a story that wasn't working and which doesn't really mesh with...

Episode IV -- a nearly perfect movie, which in itself is violated by the continuity grafted onto it by the sequels. Suddenly and without any sensible motivation, Obi Wan lies to Luke about Anakin's life. Anakin, meanwhile, murders his old mentor and demonstrates in every way possible that there is no good left in him.

Episode V -- Obi Wan pulls Yoda into his lie and refuses to let it be exposed even as Luke rushes off into battle with Vader. Then Vader demonstrates in every way possible that no good remains in him.

Episode VI -- Luke starts talking about all the good he sees in Vader. Then, without half-trying, he gets Vader to all but admit it. Obi Wan tries to excuse his own lies and Luke intuitively brings about Vader's redemption without the benefit of anyone's tips, help or guidance. He just concocts a whole plan on the battlefields of Endor and jogs off to go redeem his dad. Lucky for the Rebellion, it works perfectly.

These Episodes could hold together nicely if they really were the fall and rise of Anakin Skywalker -- a gifted Jedi who was seduced by the Dark Side only to be redeemed by the power that his son finds in using the good side of the Force.

That story's just not really there... yet.

InfoDroid:
I love so many of the cuts in that little clip. Thank you! I love when Ben says "he was a good friend" and we cut between Anakin and Obi Wan. I love the image of Anakin's android hand as Ben says "he's mostly a machine now." The impact of it all mixed together is whopping. Excellent job!

I believe, however, that going from Ben's story to Ben handing over Anakin's lightsaber is a mistake. I think after hearing about his father, Artoo might interrupt with the message from Leia. This is the one thing that can stop Luke from pressing for more info.

Then Ben and Luke could go from hearing the message to Luke deciding to join Obi Wan-- without his declining first. Luke doesn't have to say "yes, I'll go with you"-- he can leave it hanging and we'll still know he says "yes" if we just don't hear him say "no." If we cut to them coming across the Jawas, we can tell that he's joined Ben without him saying so. Then we can go to Owen's homestead, find them burning and cut from that scene to Luke and Ben looking over Mos Eisley -- more or less. The missing beat of "I'll join you to Alderann" can be cannibalized in a way that sews it all together.

Sorry to say, perhaps, but your clip put me in mind of a way of doing the whole Ben's hut scene without flashbacks. I'm nearly through a version like that-- I'll post it as soon as I can.

I'll try to get an Episode I thread going soon. I've been real busy with sick people running around my house all day. Don't they know I've got important business!?

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TheDemonHunter and MTHaslett, thank you both for your most recent wonderfully thoughtful and insightful posts. These two posts are perfect examples of the level of intellectual creativity I hope we can maintain on this thread. If we do that, I think we can really get somewhere with this.

MTH, right now I'm tidying up my edit of the Vader/Obi-Wan duel, if all goes well it should be posted by the weekend. And I'm also working on an alternate take of the Ben's Revelation scene.

This one would be structured differently, to begin straight away with Leia's message already beginning when we're seeing the exterior of Ben's Hut.

We cut inside and listen to the message with Ben and Luke.

When Leia is finished, Luke turns to Ben and asks "You fought in the Clone Wars?"

Which provokes the story of Anakin.

Then Ben says, "You must learn the ways of the Force, if you are to come with me to Alderaan."

Luke responds with, "The Force?"

Obi-Wan explains the Force, and gives him the lightsaber.

Luke waves the lightsaber around, before asking "How did my father die?" Then we get that horrific tale out of Obi-Wan, which also serves as a recap for the audience. He ends it with a simple call to action. "Learn about the Force, Luke."

Luke recoils.
"Listen, I can't get involved. I've got work to do."
"That's your uncle talking."
"My uncle... How am I ever going to explain this?"
"I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."
"I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going."
"You must do what you feel is right, of course."

This breaks everything up a little more in my opinion, so we're not so bombarded with too much information all at once. After this is complete I want to try another version of the same scene with no flashbacks, something very conservative, along the lines of what TheDemonHunter suggested. You guys can tell me which version you like better.

Until later,

--InfoDroid

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Let's see, where can I start....


MTH:
Originally, the OT was released as three movies about Luke Skywalker (with Han Solo getting his own Main Character Story tucked into Episode V). But that changed with the release of Episode I-- then came a second way of looking at the OT: as the second half of Anakin's story -- the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

You see, that's where we disagree. The OT is not about Anakin's redemption until ROTJ. I really believe that the parallels between the episodes of each trilogy best illustrate how similar people in similar circumstances are not destined to have the same failings. The next generation is not doomed to the mistakes of their fathers. That's the big message I take from the Saga as a whole when you look at the two trilogies together.


From that point of view, the shift to Luke in Episode IV is undermined -- Episode IV is no longer "ACT I" in any way. It's more like Act II of the saga.

I don't agree that waiting until Episode V for Luke to find out something we already know is a good enough reason to sacrifice Obi Wan and Yoda's integrity. The BIG PICTURE is exactly what I'm trying to protect -- Big Picture character arcs should take higher priority over protecting any story beat -- no matter how beloved. If we have a beat that violates a character's arc then it should go. The idea that they are "protecting" Luke from the truth is just nonsense. Protecting him from what? Would he be less likely to want to help Leia and the Rebellion if Obi Wan treated him like an adult and told the truth? Of course not. It is not honorable, serves no purpose, and makes Obi Wan and Yoda chumps when their little lie nearly destroys the Galaxy. It was a necessary evil in the design of the "Reveal" as done in 1980. But it is not central to the Saga and I'd like to see it go.

One again, I'd disagree. It's not a matter of a lack of integrity really. Obi-Wan learned from experience that teaching the ways of the Force to someone who was not raised by the Jedi Order has many pitfalls and must be taken slowly. Feeding him all the info that he eventually discovers in the OT could make Luke very emotionally disturbed, questioning whether he is destined to follow in his father's footsteps and turn to the Dark Side. That doubt would lead to fear of becoming Vader. That fear could either lead him down the path to becoming the next apprentice or to staying on the sidelines, afraid to act because of his fearsof his own destiny.

Obi-Wan already lost Anakin, so I think he'd want to bring Luke along more slowly. Why heap on the baggage of his father being the second greatest evil known in the galaxy? It doesn't have to be a deal where he tells Luke that Vader killed Anakin or that Vader is Anakin. The omission of Anakin's fate in any form would simplify Luke's path, I believe. One step at a time on this path.

The Parallels between the OT and PT Episodes are mere echoes -- thematic notions. They are not structural and fall apart at any high-resolution examination. Luke at the tree can hardly be equated with Anakin ACTUALLY killing Sandpeople babies in any serious way. These echoes or parallels will still be there anyway. But Luke's vulnerablity to the Dark Side would now come from his inexperience and from the sheer power available to him from the Force. It shouldn't come from exposing a lie told to him by Obi Wan. Preserving anything like that at the expense of character is what I consider getting caught up in details and missing the big picture.

I think these thematic parallels are the biggest selling point for combining the OT and PT in any way though. Showing how each character has similar failings and successes, weaknesses and strengths, but they turn out as completely different people in the end. Luke's strength, and the fact that he's really not exactly like his father, allows for Anakin's redemption. Until ROTJ, there isn't much redemption to be seen for Vader, so I've never really understood how anyone could claim that the OT is now more about Anakin's redemption.

I believe now as I did when ROTJ was first released that the OT was about how we don't have to inherit the sins of our fathers. We don't have to follow in their footsteps. Their destiny is not ours, no matter how similar our lives may be along the way.

I love the "migraine maker" and can't wait for that edit. I know we have a lot of talented and insightful minds posting here. There are many edits that will preserve the Obi Wan lie and attempt to justify it and leave in Luke's surprise discovery of his parentage. I hope that we can find a different way with this one.

Thanks! Since I'm such a novice with the software required, the ideas may wind up better than the actual execution, but I'm always happy to hear someone is looking forward to the stuff I'm working on. This is a long road for me, though hopefully not so long as the path Trooperman has taken with the masterful SOTDS.

A big reason for me comes during ROTJ. When you look at that movie on its own, it's a structural mess. It has wide gaps in any Main Character story, created by its various sub-plots. Luke's story lacks the cohesive feel of the first two movies. Han's not a Main Character in his own sub-plot anymore as it gets picked up from Leia's point of view. Lando gets a sub-plot that has very little character development. Vader suddenly acts as if he mourns the loss of his life as "Anakin" -- a past we didn't even know existed and which makes him very different from the villain he was for the first two films.

This last part was the weakest part for me when the movie came out. The Star Wars films so far had been excellent in great part because Vader was so bad -- strangling people and cutting down Jedi. It was hard for me to accept a Vader who said things like "It's too late for me, my son."

But...

With the PT -- all that material took life. Suddenly ROTJ had a Main Character -- VADER/ANAKIN. His story is not interrupted. He appears in the first scene and goes through a clear dramatic arc-- the completion of which brings a cap to the whole Saga. We were not aware that he could be a Main Character in the first release because we had no way of getting into his head. But watching it "in order," there's no way to stay OUT of his head. All those close ups and pauses as he leads Luke to the Emperor are now full of meaning -- Anakin, deep inside, is having second thoughts. That didn't work for Darth Vader -- but it works fine for Anakin Skywalker.

I can understand this to some degree, but I think that ROTJ sums up the strengths of Luke and how his success can inspire Anakin to turn back from the Dark Side, more than it's about Anakin finding the strength within himself. Speaking as a big-time Vader fan, I believed at first there was a lot of background that could have been shown, but I remembered that the OT had been mostly about Luke for the first two movies for a good reason, and so Vader's story would have to wait for another day. When the PT came out, that was Vader's tragic story.

All of that having been said, I believe that ROTJ is a big mess no matter how you look at it. Everything before the climactic battle on the DS II is pretty superfluous. Too much time spent getting to the meat of the story, I think. Just my opinion though.

So the Saga has a clear "intended" arc. But each Episode has its own issues screwing things up.

Each episode has flaws when viewed as a whole, I agree, and that's what these projects will hopefully correct, though you and I will respectfully disagree on how it can be corrected.

Episode I has no Anakin story -- the kid just blunders his way into the Naboo battle and wins the day without a hint of awareness of anything important happening around him.

I wouldn't say there's no Anakin story. Yes, he does seem to get by on blind luck a lot, but as Obi-Wan says in ANH, "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck." This is where we begin to see Anakin's potential, just as we later see the same potential from Luke in ANH.

Episode II has a truly unlikable Anakin going through the motions of a crisis without generating any real emotion.

The only significance to Anakin's story is we see the potential for a fall in this one, with his lack of patience, his anger, and his arrogance. It was poorly executed though, no matter how you look at it, I agree.

Episode III has a great sense of emotion and completion to Anakin's fall (despite various opinions about the details). But it completes a story that wasn't working and which doesn't really mesh with...


It's like GL wanted to compensate for the lack of energy and emotion of I & II and wow did he ever pack 3 movies' worth into one. Once again though, the details leave some people feeling as the execution is lacking in ways.

Episode IV -- a nearly perfect movie, which in itself is violated by the continuity grafted onto it by the sequels. Suddenly and without any sensible motivation, Obi Wan lies to Luke about Anakin's life. Anakin, meanwhile, murders his old mentor and demonstrates in every way possible that there is no good left in him.


This is why I feel the OT remains Luke's story, not just about Vader's redemption.

Episode V -- Obi Wan pulls Yoda into his lie and refuses to let it be exposed even as Luke rushes off into battle with Vader. Then Vader demonstrates in every way possible that no good remains in him.


Once again, seeing Vader as such a force of evil, with few redeeming qualities,leaves this movie once again as Luke's.

Episode VI -- Luke starts talking about all the good he sees in Vader. Then, without half-trying, he gets Vader to all but admit it. Obi Wan tries to excuse his own lies and Luke intuitively brings about Vader's redemption without the benefit of anyone's tips, help or guidance. He just concocts a whole plan on the battlefields of Endor and jogs off to go redeem his dad. Lucky for the Rebellion, it works perfectly.


ROTJ is by far the weakest resolution for a six-movie saga possible as it stands now, I think we can agree. There's too many coincidences, too little planning, and too little continuity with the flow of the other movies in the saga, either OT or PT. The end is what was important though. Luke helping Anakin find the strength to redeem himself and destroy the Empire he helped create.

These Episodes could hold together nicely if they really were the fall and rise of Anakin Skywalker -- a gifted Jedi who was seduced by the Dark Side only to be redeemed by the power that his son finds in using the good side of the Force.

That story's just not really there... yet.


I believe I've already stated my view on the saga, so once again, I'll say we may have to agree to disagree.

InfoDroid:
Your clip of Ben's Hut was fantastic and is in some ways reminscent of what I'd like to show when I get to ROTJ in my project. I agree with MTH that showing the mechanical hand was pure genius at that point. Too cool to be believed. I may not agree with all the content, but the way you put it all together was very well done.

I also like the concepts of what was shown in the duel clip you showed us. Very interesting indeed, and it does help to tie things together thematically. It may have been a bit rough, but the ideas show through very well and make things more interesting, I think.

As for your alternate take on the Ben's Hut scene, I believe that a lot of that could go into showing the conservative approach I had suggested. Doesn't have to be a radical departure from your take there at all.

This one would be structured differently, to begin straight away with Leia's message already beginning when we're seeing the exterior of Ben's Hut.

We cut inside and listen to the message with Ben and Luke.

When Leia is finished, Luke turns to Ben and asks "You fought in the Clone Wars?"


This is damn near perfect, I think. A great setup for the rest of the conservative take of the scene.

Which provokes the story of Anakin.


This could be the perfect spring board into Obi-Wan's description of the Jedi and the Force. From there, he can lead into how he wanted to give Luke his father's lightsaber but his uncle wouldn't allow it. Let Obi-Wan keep him distracted with tales of the Jedi and the Force and how he's needed for the Rebellion.


Ben ends with, "You must learn the ways of the Force, if you are to come with me to Alderaan."

Luke recoils.
"Listen, I can't get involved. I've got work to do."
"That's your uncle talking."
"My uncle... How am I ever going to explain this?"
"I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."
"I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going."
"You must do what you feel is right, of course."


Perfect. I lke that a lot.

So those were a few ideas for the scene off the top of my head this morning as I wind down from a long night at work.

Overall, I beleive this will be an amazing event to watch when everything is said and done. I thank you all for listening to my ideas and hearing me out. I believe that the changes needed can be done, but that we don't need to rewrite everything to make it work. Obi-Wan's tale can be more of a subtle omission as I proposed. While it may not be the path this project takes, I think I can play devil's advocate and argue for a different option at times in this process. The more ideas the better, I believe. Once the framework is established, the details can fill themselves in.

I'll poke my head in here from time to time, as I've done with TM's SOTDS thread. This should be very interesting to see how it progresses!
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"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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DemonHunter --

I see your points and can agree with most of them-- but we're talking about making a Complete Saga (I think). This way, there is no "OT" and "PT" -- just the Saga.

ANH is definitely a complete story about Luke learning the force. It doesn't need the next two movies to be a story -- so the "OT" is really two stories.

ESB and ROTJ combine to make the second story -- but it is a bumpy ride with a lot of structural flaws (charming and otherwise).

Put in the other three films and you have a lot of ways to see it-- it's a bunch of individually flawed movies, three or maybe four individual stories strung together, or two "big" stories, or ONE GIANT story -- this project is about the Giant Story (again, "I think").

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Originally posted by: TheDemonHunter

Your clip of Ben's Hut was fantastic and is in some ways reminscent of what I'd like to show when I get to ROTJ in my project. I agree with MTH that showing the mechanical hand was pure genius at that point. Too cool to be believed. I may not agree with all the content, but the way you put it all together was very well done.

Thank you very much. At this point though, it was only an experiment. One option out of many that we'll have to decide on.

I also like the concepts of what was shown in the duel clip you showed us. Very interesting indeed, and it does help to tie things together thematically. It may have been a bit rough, but the ideas show through very well and make things more interesting, I think.


That one was not one of mine. I still haven't heard where Commander Courage got that clip. But, I have one that I'm working on now along the same lines, just a little more tailored to fit and much better audio/visual quality. It should be ready to post within the next few days.

Originally posted by MTHaslett: Sorry to say, perhaps, but your clip put me in mind of a way of doing the whole Ben's hut scene without flashbacks. I'm nearly through a version like that-- I'll post it as soon as I can.


Please do!



--InfoDroid

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InfoDroid:
Your clip of Ben's Hut was fantastic and is in some ways reminscent of what I'd like to show when I get to ROTJ in my project. I agree with MTH that showing the mechanical hand was pure genius at that point. Too cool to be believed. I may not agree with all the content, but the way you put it all together was very well done.

I also like the concepts of what was shown in the duel clip you showed us. Very interesting indeed, and it does help to tie things together thematically. It may have been a bit rough, but the ideas show through very well and make things more interesting, I think.

Yes, as much as I disagree with flashbacks and the like, you did a great job and accomplished what you were going for. The mechanical arm was also my favorite bit. I'm very open to whatever works at this point, but I must insist on no flashbacks. You mentioned TM's II and III having them, but those would be dream sequences, not actual cuts to footage from the other films.

As for restructuring Ben's Hut scene, putting Leia's message first was exactly what I was going to suggest. This was the way the scene was originally shot, but Lucas thought something wasn't right about them receiving such an urgent message and then sitting around and discussing the past instead of getting a move on. While that decision has it's merit, I think the original flow of the scene will work best in our edit. There is one line in Leia's message that we might need to tweak: "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." Not exactly. And hey, while we're at it, what do you guys think about de-pluralizing Clone War in Luke and Leia's mentions of them? There was only one after all.

And I said where the duel clip came from: Darth Qui-Gon at the Jedi Council Boards at TF.N (yes I do lurk there from time to time). I'm looking forward to your version InfoDroid, but may I reiterate a couple of points from my original post?
1-The part with the really slow fencing and stabbing should be cut entirely.
2-The shot of Vader saying, "You should not have come back" should be reversed (his chestplate is backwards). This also means it needs to be moved to later in the duel to account for his position on the other side of the hallway. I think this is good because it will break up the dialouge more.

Finally, thanks for all the input, TheDemonHunter. Your project is equally ambitious, and I especially can't wait for the "migraine maker."
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Thanks for the encouragement, CC. But, as far as the flashbacks being out for good, I'm just not entirely convinced yet. I still believe it provides the audience a much-needed emotional connection to Anakin (as a Human Being) in the OT, to remind us he's more than just a walking iron lung. But, like I said, I'll be editing a non-flashback version as well.

Originally posted by: Commander Courage

As for restructuring Ben's Hut scene, putting Leia's message first was exactly what I was going to suggest. This was the way the scene was originally shot, but Lucas thought something wasn't right about them receiving such an urgent message and then sitting around and discussing the past instead of getting a move on. While that decision has it's merit, I think the original flow of the scene will work best in our edit.

I had read that also, and decided to give it a try, and so far I've liked the results. It's reminicent of the Prequel-style transitions where you go to a scene while in the middle of everyone standing around listening to a holographic transmission. It seems to feel more urgent that way. You'll have to take a look at it when I'm finished and decide for yourself.

There is one line in Leia's message that we might need to tweak: "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." Not exactly. And hey, while we're at it, what do you guys think about de-pluralizing Clone War in Luke and Leia's mentions of them? There was only one after all.


I really don't know how I feel about that. The Clone Wars were a series of large scale battles which engulfed the galaxy and spanning several years. I don't see any problem with them being called "The Clone Wars". But, that's just me. If you really feel strongly about it, then let's discuss it. But, you're right about Obi-Wan not exactly serving Bail Organa. Although, technically the Jedi were put in place to protect democracy and to serve the Senate. Plus it might've been a more PC term in that political environment rather than coming right out and telling her he was a Jedi. For me, it's the set-up for a very important transition in this arrangement of the scene, because after the message is over, Luke asks "You fought in the Clone Wars?"

And I said where the duel clip came from: Darth Qui-Gon at the Jedi Council Boards at TF.N (yes I do lurk there from time to time). I'm looking forward to your version InfoDroid, but may I reiterate a couple of points from my original post?
1-The part with the really slow fencing and stabbing should be cut entirely.
2-The shot of Vader saying, "You should not have come back" should be reversed (his chestplate is backwards). This also means it needs to be moved to later in the duel to account for his position on the other side of the hallway. I think this is good because it will break up the dialouge more.


Sorry, I must've missed your original post. Your messages sometimes tend to get lost in the shuffle for some reason. But, both of these points have been addressed in my version, and the results have been very good, IMO. You'll see it soon.

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InfoDroid --

This project is very much in your hands. As Trooperman is boss on SOTD, you have to be boss here. There are too many ways to do this and you're the one who's going to put in the hard work.

The intention, I believe, is to make an ANH that fits seamlessly into the Saga. The premise behind this notion is that Anakin's fall in Episode III puts the OT into a new context that could flow better out of Episode III with a little tweaking.

I've suggested that making Obi Wan honest with Luke will maintain a level of integrity that Obi Wan demonstrates in both the PT and the original release of ANH, but which is undermined by the "reveal" of ESB. Further, I suggest that "reveal" is undermined by the fact we all know Vader is Luke's Dad long before it is revealed to Luke.

But if we go down the road of telling Luke the truth in ANH, then we create a subtle but powerful difference in the story of Episodes IV-VI. Luke becomes a man with a secret, a dark heritage that he comes to deal with.

When he is told the truth in episode IV, he doesn't and cannot understand the full impact of it. He doesn't know who Vader is. He never once, in the original cut, acknowledges any recognition of Vader. The audience knows, but Luke does not. Even if you tell Luke that "Your father became Darth Vader" -- he still doesn't know what it means until he's gotten off the foresaken deserts of Tatooine and seen what it's really like in the Imperial controlled Galaxy. This barely has a chance to happen in ANH -- he sees Mos Eisley, The Death Star, the Rebel Base -- and that's it. He never meets Vader or has the man pointed out to him by name. He sees a big guy in black cut down Obi Wan, but does Luke know that man's name? There's no indication of it and no easy way to fit one in. I believe, at the end of ANH, unless we add it -- Luke does not know who Vader is. "Vader's my father, but who is Vader?" might sum up his position in the end.

An idea that will bring this movie home, then, would be to have Luke recognize Vader on the Death Star as the man in black who kills Obi Wan. Thus, his stunned reaction to Ben's death does double duty as the realization that he just saw his own father -- an evil man who murdered his mentor. His reactions through the rest of the movie should become more muted and somber, as this is a heavy thing to bear. If we can reinsert the reference that a pilot makes to Luke's father before flying off to Yavin -- this will have power to it. Then, ultimately, in battle -- Luke uses the Force and defeats these doubts and fears that have risen in him. He doesn't know Vader's on his tail. Vader doesn't know he's hunting his own son -- but the moment Luke trusts the Force he transcends these worries.

I believe that this movie thus becomes the story of a boy who finds out he has a dark heritage. But bravery and guidance from a friend help him escape that inheritance as he embraces the Force and becomes a hero.

I think that takes better advantage of "the story so far" -- giving us an Episode IV that grows out of Episode III more organically. But Jeebus help us, the changes can't stop there...

In Episode V, Vader is personally looking for Luke. Presumably, the man who destroyed the Death Star became a celebrity of sorts. Vader recognized the power of the Force in this pilot and the name "Skywalker" cinched the deal -- this had to be his son. Luke, meanwhile, has certainly learned who Darth Vader is -- but recognizes the need for training. With the knowledge that Vader is his father, he carries the burden of this heritage through his training. He knows he is preparing to do battle with the forces of the Empire. Chiefly, this must mean his own father -- at least to him. Receiveing visions of his friends in trouble -- he cannot stop himself and rushes off unprepared to save them and face Vader. His brashness costs him dearly -- especially when he discovers Vader knows of him and wants him to take a place at his evil side.

In Episode VI, Luke has escaped his brash encounter with his father. That experience has wisened him. He senses his true weapon against Vader is the good that still exists inside the villain. He chooses this path and heads into the final conflict with this in mind.

That is quite a bit different than what is there. To my mind, it plays a lot smoother as the redeeming of the chosen one. It doesn't seem so fast and loose when it comes to the material point: how is Vader to be redeemed?

Aside from all the aesthetic changes that could tweak the OT into a better match with the PT -- are we really on board for all these story changes that would come from changing the "Ben's Hut" scene?

I can say that "I am if you are." If you aren't, then we should set it aside. I will do this edit some day if we don't do it now. The rest of our changes here will make such an edit much easier.

More later.

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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Right THX, that's just what I suggested:
The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."
Now THAT'S an idea. That would indeed be an ideal time to reveal the truth. Plus, there would be no need for out of place flashbacks to explain Obi-Wan's ghostly voice. It deals with a lot of my issues with RotJ as well; it took a YEAR to go back to Dagobah to get an answer as to Vader's identity? Obi-Wan NEVER appeared to Luke during that time to offer any kind of explanation or at least remind him to get back to this training? (I have more RotJ ideas on how to deal with those and other related issues, but those are for another time.)Very interesting concept here. Thoughts?

We were all posting at once and I think mine got lost in the shuffle so I'm glad you mentioned that again.

And yes MTH, you need to start that Episode I thread ASAP!



You know what, CC? I did miss this point when you posted it.

This is an interesting way of making Obi Wan honorable -- if we can't figure a way for Ben to come completely clean in ANH, then this becomes my second favorite tack. Ben could be made (as I believe TDH suggested) to avoid the issue altogether by simply not lying to Luke and making up a story about a pupil named Darth Vader who betrayed Luke's father. Until Degobah, Luke would have heard that his dad was a Jedi and that he died. Then, in Episode V he could hear the whole truth as he trains. It could be used to make Luke's "failure at the tree" about this revelation. Then he gets a vision about his friends and rushes off to save them -- and to face Vader, his father. This doesn't go well, but in Episode VI we see how it wisens Luke. He feels the good hidden in Vader and carries on to victory using this secret weapon.

This change would also tie Episode VI much better into the fabric of the Saga by keeping Ben honest, preparing Luke to sense good in Vader, and making his development arc more clearly into becoming the chosen one's redeemer.

But I consider this a "second best" idea to actually working out the Ben's Hut scene and reworking ANH along these lines. Still-- great idea, Commander.

Edited to add -- Re: the Episode I thread; I was working on starting one when I realized it might be prudent to do a "Star Wars Saga Ranch-Edit Bible" thread first. There we can hash out all the issues that crop up when we start talking about cutting one of these episodes to shreds. Like, I want to kill Nute Gunray -- but that affects Episodes II and III. If 3 of us are going to edit Episode I together, then I think we need to all get on the same page for the WHOLE SAGA first. Does that make sense? If so, I'll start that thread right away.

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One Last Post tonight:

I said I was coming up with a cut of Ben's Hut scene that had no flashbacks -- well, here's the script for it. It will require clever editing using coverage, non-synch dialogue, alternative angles created by masking Full Screen shots -- whatever tricks we can pull to cover this. But it's all taken from what's there and covers the bases: Luke's father turned to the dark side, became Vader, and hunted down the Jedi. The remaining point which would be made later in the movie is that Vader/Luke's father is still alive.

Here's the script:

INTERIOR: KENOBI'S DWELLING.

The small, spartan hovel is cluttered with desert junk but
still manages to radiate an air of time-worn comfort and
security. Luke is in one corner repairing Threepio's arm, as
old Ben sits thinking.

LUKE: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a
spice freighter.

BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your
father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten
involved.

LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?

BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

LUKE: I wish I'd known him.

BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.
I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a
good friend. Which reminds me...

Ben gets up and goes to a chest where he rummages around.
As Luke finishes repairing Threepio. Ben shuffles up and presents
Luke with a short handle with several electronic gadgets attached to it.

BEN: I have something here for you.

THREEPIO: Sir, if you'll not be needing me, I'll close down for
awhile.

LUKE: Sure, go ahead.

Ben hands Luke the saber.

LUKE: What is it?

BEN: Your father's light-saber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not
as clumsy or as random as a blaster.

Luke pushes a button on the handle. A long beam shoots out
about four feet and flickers there.

BEN: An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand
generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice
in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.

Luke hasn't really been listening.

LUKE: How did my father die?

Ben hesitates to answer, but then--

BEN: Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

LUKE: The Force?

BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy
field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us.
It binds the galaxy together.

Ben looks solemnly at Luke.

BEN: Your father was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil. He became
a Jedi named Darth Vader. He betrayed the Republic. Helped the Empire
hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. Now the Jedi are all but extinct.

Artoo makes beeping sounds.

Luke stares, lost in thought about his father. Ben rises and
crosses to Artoo and the recorded image of the beautiful young
Rebel princess is projected from Artoo's face.

Luke watches as the lovely girl's image flickers
before his eyes.

LEIA: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone
Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire.
I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in
person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission
to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital
to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2
unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid
safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour.
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

There is a little static and the transmission is cut short.
Old Ben leans back and scratches his head. He silently puffs
on a tarnished chrome water pipe. Luke has stars in his eyes.

BEN: You must learn the ways of the Force if you're to come with me to
Alderaan.

LUKE: (laughing) Alderaan? I'm not going to Alderaan.

BEN: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old
for this sort of thing.

LUKE: I can't get involved! I've got work to do!

BEN: That's your uncle talking.

LUKE: (sighing) Oh, God, my uncle. How am I ever going to explain
this?

BEN: Learn about the Force, Luke.

LUKE: Look, I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a
transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going.

Old Ben just stares at Luke without answering...

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Yeah, I don't know what it is about my posts in here; they just keep getting overlooked. No big deal though, after a couple of reiterations my points get mentioned anyway.

I'm glad you liked my suggestion about revealing the truth to Luke on Dagobah before the leaves for Bespin. That, IMO, would be the most logical place for Ben and Yoda to tell him. He's nearly completed his training and is off to face Vader and save his friends. He deserves to know what he's up against. Did the Jedi think Vader wouldn't tell Luke he was his father, as they must have assumed Vader was aware of Luke's identity by then. Yoda does say in RotJ, "Unexpected this is, and unfortunate," so I guess they did. This takes care of the numerous issues of Luke knowing in ANH and early ESB. Luke's behavior towards Vader on Bespin could go either way, then at the end of the duel he would find out anyway, so the flow of Luke's character wouldn't be disrupted as it would be if we have dozens of scenes with Luke knowing Darth Vader is his father but not reacting to or doing anything about it. To be honest I think the saga would be alright the the revelation going down the way it already does, but if not, this would be the preferable alternative. The biggest challenge here would be Luke's reactions. If only he had worn his orange jumpsuit in RotJ...

In regards to a "Star Wars Saga Ranch-Edit Bible" thread, I am in agreement that we are in need of one, but how would we make sure to make it different from the threads for the specific movies? Surely the two would overlap? Like I said I'm all for it; I just want to know how exactly we should seperate the discussions from then on.
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Thanks for going to the trouble of putting that together, MTH. That gives us a better idea of how the scene would play out in your scenario. In fact you've inspired me to cook up an alternative (key line changes are in bold):

INTERIOR: KENOBI'S DWELLING.

LUKE: No, my father didn't die in the wars. He was a navigator on a
spice freighter.

BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals or old Obi-Wan's "damned-fool idealistic
crusade."

LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?

BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

LUKE: I wish I'd known him.

BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.
I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a
good friend. Which reminds me...

Ben gets up and goes to a chest where he rummages around.
Ben shuffles up and presents Luke with a short handle
with several electronic gadgets attached to it.

BEN: I have something here for you. I wanted you to have
this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it.

THREEPIO: Sir, if you'll not be needing me, I'll close down for
awhile.

LUKE: Sure, go ahead.

Ben hands Luke the saber.

LUKE: What is it?

BEN: Your fathers lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not
as clumsy or as random as a blaster.

Luke pushes a button on the handle. A long beam shoots out
about four feet and flickers there. The light plays across the
ceiling.

BEN: An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand
generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice
in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.

Luke hasn't really been listening.

LUKE: (alternate Luke line asking about what happened to the Jedi or Republic)

BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he
turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi
Knights. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

LUKE: The Force?

BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy
field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us.
It binds the galaxy together.

Artoo makes beeping sounds.

BEN: Now, let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little
friend. And where you come from.

LUKE: I saw part of the message he was...

Luke is cut short as the recorded image of the beautiful
young Rebel princess is projected from Artoo's face.

BEN: I seem to have found it.

Luke stops his work as the lovely girl's image flickers
before his eyes.

LEIA: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone
Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire.
I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in
person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission
to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital
to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2
unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid
safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour.
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

There is a little static and the transmission is cut short.
Luke has stars in his eyes.

BEN: You must learn the ways of the Force if you're to come with me to
Alderaan.

LUKE: (laughing) Alderaan? I'm not going to Alderaan. I've got to go
home. It's late, I'm in for it as it is.

BEN: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old
for this sort of thing.

LUKE: I can't get involved! I've got work to do! It's not that I like
the Empire. I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right
now. It's such a long way from here.

BEN: That's your uncle talking.

LUKE: (sighing) My uncle! How am I ever going to explain
this?

BEN: Learn about the Force, Luke.

LUKE: Look, I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a
transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going.

BEN: You must do what you feel is right, of course.

I had originally intented to keep the original flow of the scene starting with the message, but found it much easier to begin the scene with Luke's altered line which has us assume Ben tells him his father died in the Clone Wars. Also I'm sure with all the Mark Hamill dialogue out there we can find something to plug into the "How did my father die" spot, particularly from the Radio Dramas. I'm going to go through those again pretty soon to see how else they can be utilized for our saga editions.
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Yeah, I don't know what it is about my posts in here; they just keep getting overlooked. No big deal though, after a couple of reiterations my points get mentioned anyway.

I'm glad you liked my suggestion about revealing the truth to Luke on Dagobah before the leaves for Bespin. That, IMO, would be the most logical place for Ben and Yoda to tell him. He's nearly completed his training and is off to face Vader and save his friends. He deserves to know what he's up against. Did the Jedi think Vader wouldn't tell Luke he was his father, as they must have assumed Vader was aware of Luke's identity by then. Yoda does say in RotJ, "Unexpected this is, and unfortunate," so I guess they did. This takes care of the numerous issues of Luke knowing in ANH and early ESB. Luke's behavior towards Vader on Bespin could go either way, then at the end of the duel he would find out anyway, so the flow of Luke's character wouldn't be disrupted as it would be if we have dozens of scenes with Luke knowing Darth Vader is his father but not reacting to or doing anything about it. To be honest I think the saga would be alright the the revelation going down the way it already does, but if not, this would be the preferable alternative. The biggest challenge here would be Luke's reactions. If only he had worn his orange jumpsuit in RotJ...

In regards to a "Star Wars Saga Ranch-Edit Bible" thread, I am in agreement that we are in need of one, but how would we make sure to make it different from the threads for the specific movies? Surely the two would overlap? Like I said I'm all for it; I just want to know how exactly we should seperate the discussions from then on.


First -- the "bible" thread would just be the catch-all for the entire saga until either a) we got it all sorted out and begin a specific episode or b) someone gets a wild-hair to begin an edit (as InfoDroid has done here). But as we've seen, discussion of one breeds discussion of the others. Maybe THIS should be the Bible thread?

Second -- re: the logical time for Obi Wan to tell Luke about Vader -- If you look at it logically, there isn't any Jedi plan for getting Vader during ANH. Obi Wan is watching Luke while the Rebellion goes on somewhere else. Leia brings Luke and Ben together for a mission, but Obi Wan is not really up on current events and doesn't know where things stand or what chances there might be for defeating Vader. Deceiving Luke at this point can hardly be considered part of a plan -- it's more of a random act of misguided kindness or even condescending dishonesty ("You can't know the truth because you can't handle the truth." Oh really? Thanks for all your faith, Obi Wan).

If for some reason Obi Wan doesn't tell Luke the truth in ANH, then Degobah in ESB becomes the next logical place. But what is so illogical to you about Ben telling the truth in ANH? It has to be kept in mind that telling Luke in ANH does not affect Luke's interaction with Vader during the movie -- not unless we want it to. They do not ever meet or know each others' identities.

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Wow, you guys are coming up with some amazing alterations here. I thought I would throw out another topic of conversation to add to the Obi/ vader/luke connections. What could we do to make Vader/Emperor scene in ESB seem more intersting? Considering at this point in editing the saga we will probably have a buttload of extra dialouge from sidous after editing his presence in the prequels. This will be the first time in "ACT II" that we see anakin/vader and the old emperor linking up again, I think in retrospect of the saga this scene could be a little more interesting. You could change the whole topic of the conversation perhaps. Should the emperor be revealing that luke is the son of anakin at this point in the saga? If he's already aware of the boy and his last name by the end of ANH (as the movie suggest), then the scene has a pointless vibe to it. But watching these in order, this would be a scene you would have been waiting for ALL during Episode IV, and there are no clues as to what the Vader/Emperor relationship is like during the whole flick. If I saw these in order I would be REALLY interested to know what they were going to talk about when I saw the scene unfold. So I was just curious to see anybody's ideas on how to change that scene, cause it will be up for an alteration come editting time. Blasted, i'm having fun in this thread!

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
InfoDroid --

This project is very much in your hands. As Trooperman is boss on SOTD, you have to be boss here. There are too many ways to do this and you're the one who's going to put in the hard work.

This is certainly the truth, MTH. While the rest of us may chime in with ideas of what direction could be taken with certain plot points, in the end, you're the one doing the work, InfoDroid, and in the end, it's your name on the movie, not the rest of ours. We may each have our own ideas, but you're ther man putting it all together, guiding and shaping your own vision of what the Star Wars universe is about.

If we can reinsert the reference that a pilot makes to Luke's father before flying off to Yavin -- this will have power to it.


If anyone can find this footage in its entirety, I definitely want a copy. I believe you're referring to the scene in the hangar on Yavin with Biggs and Red Leader, where Red Leader says that he saw Luke's father fly, and if he's half the pilot his father was, he'll do okay. This scene was, of course, cut down when added to ANH in the SE, and I haven't been able to come across a complete, uncut version of the scene. I'd been hoping to use it in my own project, inserting it as a bridge to a flashback sequence that would show Anakin's skill as a pilot in the opening space battle in ROTS. That would then segue into the battle at Yavin.

Anyway, I'd love to see this footage in its entirety someday. If even the audio alone of the unabridged line can be found, we'll all have a big piece to play with for our subsequent projects.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c35/damonhunter/TDHOpenerMini.jpg
"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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I agree with TheDemonHunter that Ben is not lacking integrity in ANH, he is worried about what might happen to Luke if he knows too much too soon, having witnessed those problems with Anakin. I also agree with Commander Courage that there are numerous issues with Luke knowing in ANH. The reveal coming on Dagobah makes more sense, and seems like a good compromise between the various opinions on this. CC's Ben's hut scene works well toward this. Glad you edited Ben's 1st line. I still wonder how the ESB scene will work though?
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Okay, I've read everyone's posts, but I'm sorry I don't have time to respond to each one personally, but I will say we've got some great discussion going on in here.

Thanks for the scripts, Guys. That's a great idea, and really will help me when I edit. I will say, MTHaslett, your version has very good potential, and we may go with a version of it, but as it stands, it's a little too close to the original structure for me. And CC, I have some issues with your dialogue regarding Uncle Owen. The dialogue suggests that Anakin and Owen had some type of relationship, which was never touched upon in the Prequels and therefore becomes confusing to the viewer. Same with talk of a "damn-fool idealistic crusade". When did that take place? During the Clone Wars? And if it did, how did Owen know about it? See what I'm saying?

The big question seems to be Ben's Hut or Dagobah for the reveal? I've seen several good suggestions for the Ben's Hut scenario, and almost none for the Dagobah scene, except to say that it "would be a good idea". So, if someone is sold on the idea, they need to write up a script version of a Dagobah reveal using ONLY available dialogue and visuals. Nothing crazy. And then we can consider it. As Commander Courage noted, Luke is in an orange jumpsuit for most of the time and doesn't give many surprised reactions. So how is he going to respond to these revelations? Please make sure to include your explanation on how this would be accomplished in your proposed scenario.

Remember, this is not the "InfoDroid" edit, even though I'm physically doing the editing. This is the "Ranch Edit" and will be credited as such. I want this to be an inclusive, creative process, because I know there are things that are spinning in your heads that I might never have thought of, and might never think of. The goal is simply this... To collectively make the most complete, satisfying and audience-friendly version of the Star Wars Saga. We're qualified to do this, because we've spent a lifetime watching these films more times than we can count. The hard part will be agreeing on what we think is "the best", but that's what pushes us to create a water-tight scenario. If we mix the best elements of the OT with the best of the PT then we should have some pretty good results. The best thing we can do right now is fight it out.

A rough cut of the duel will be posted later tonight, so get ready to download.



--InfoDroid

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InfoDroid:

Thanks for the feedback-- there will be a time when someone will have to "break the tie" and that's likely going to be you. Glad you like my script to a degree. You say:

InfoDroid: "I will say, MTHaslett, your version has very good potential, and we may go with a version of it, but as it stands, it's a little too close to the original structure for me."

...And I must ask for clarification. What is wrong with the original "structure?" The problem I always had was that Obi Wan lies -- not the structure of the scene. I agree with Lucas that it seems weird for them to start by listening to a call to arms from Princess Leia and responding by sitting around telling stories and exchanging gifts.

So I can maybe make suggestions, can you say what would be an improved structure?

Long live "the Ranch!"

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I don't know, MTH. I guess nothing is wrong with the original structure, other than it's slightly boring. I'd like to try to turn it on it's ear a little bit and breathe some life into a scene we've seen so many times before. But we might be able to do that with a small musical addition.

In the end you'll probably be right.

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Maybe you can add some rock songs to the scenes. You know, to change it up a bit.
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Warning: LONG POST

Infodroid, I accept your challenge and will present a detailed alternative to your suggested version of events:

And CC, I have some issues with your dialogue regarding Uncle Owen. The dialogue suggests that Anakin and Owen had some type of relationship, which was never touched upon in the Prequels and therefore becomes confusing to the viewer. Same with talk of a "damn-fool idealistic crusade". When did that take place? During the Clone Wars? And if it did, how did Owen know about it? See what I'm saying?

I understand where you're coming from as this is a major nitpick of fans. I see it going this way though: Obi-Wan is explaining to Luke that Owen didn't hold with Anakin's Jedi ideals, and also "Obi-Wan's damn fool idealistic crusade." In my version Ben couples those together, but we can assume he's talking about wanting to train Luke as a Jedi (thus saving the galaxy) and that's what Owen called it, hence Obi-Wan's sarcastic tone. I cut "thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved," the biggest continuity error, IMO. "I wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it." One, I changed "your father" to "I" which is actually the case. I see no problem with the line now. Two, there's a twenty year gap between RotS and ANH, surely Ben and Owen have discussed Luke in the timeframe.

I would also like to sugest trying to work in some of Luke and C-3P0's conversation about Ben while searching for Artoo in the landspeeder, from the Radio Drama; it sets up some history between Luke and Ben so we know this isn't the fist time they've encountered one another. This could be told in the longshots as they race through the desert. What about the other changes in my version? "My father didn't die in the wars..." and "What happened to the Jedi?(or something like it)?

That is what you would do. Here is what I would do. I think there is no real problem in regards to this storypoint in ANH and ESB; RotJ is what messes things up. When I edited that RotJ script with Radio Drama lines, I also changed up the order of things, as well as writing a new opening crawl. This, for me, would solve the issues created by Obi-Wan and Yoda deceiving Luke and Vader telling him the truth. What that would mean for this project is that the major story flow would stay as-is in the OT; what we are now discussing in particular, would become obsolete. Here's my proposed opening crawl and a roadmap of signifigant changes that would be made:

EPISODE VI
RETURN OF THE JEDI

A final, climactic confrontation in GALACTIC CIVIL WAR looms near. The Empire, desperate to extinguish the ever-spreading flame of rebellion, has hastened construction on its second, even more powerful Death Star.

Recognizing if completed this ultimate weapon would spell certain doom for the Alliance, the Rebellion has organized a preemptive strike against the armored battle station, preparing to go into battle with or without several of their key leaders, who on Tatooine have masterminded the rescue of Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster, Jabba the Hutt.

Having returned to the Dagobah System, Luke Skywalker is facing his final trials to become a Jedi Knight. Luke is eager to complete his training and join his friends in the effort, but has unanswered questions for his dying Jedi Master that could shatter his reality and alter the course of galactic history…

-First scene of Vader arriving on Death Star II as is.
-Wipe to Dagobah. Edit Luke and Yoda's dialogue. Scene as is until:
Luke: But...the training?
Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you that what you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi?
Yoda: Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi you will be. The force runs strong in your family, pass on what you have learned. Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father's fate you will.
Luke: Master Yoda... is Darth Vader my father?
Yoda: Rest I need, yes, rest.
Luke: Yoda, I must know.
Yoda: Your father he is. Told you did he?
Luke: Yes.
Yoda: Unexpected this is. And unfortunate.
Luke: Unfortunate that I know the truth?
Yoda: No! Unfortunate that you rushed to face him, that incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden were you.
Luke: I'm sorry.
Yoda: Luke...there is another...Sky...walk...er.
-Luke/Obi-Wan scene as is (for now anyway). Btw, I am aware Luke has his black glove on during these scenes, but the way I see it hardly noticable clothing continuity is a small price to pay for the greater good of the story. It could also be assumed it was for his hand, like Anakin in RotS, and he removed it on Tatooine, only to have it damaged and require a covering yet again.
-Wipe to Emperor arriving on Death Star II. (This transition works really well with Obi-Wan's last line, "...but they could be made to serve the Emperor."
-Wipe to Tatooine with droids approaching Jabba's palace. Story flow as is (there will of course be many asthetic changes to this sequence). Luke's late arrival and the confused plan can be interpreted as him having to finish his training the the Rebels not being able to wait any longer, so they spring a plan to rescue Han and get back to the fleet and plan the attack on the Death Star II.
-It would be really nice to have the deleted sandstorm scene, as it presents at least SOME kind of resolution to the Han/Lando situation that was desperately needed in the film. The radio drama addresses this in a great scene with the two on the Falcon, which of course is impossible to duplicate. And that's another point; not once in RotJ do we see Han flying the Falcon. Shame. Maybe we can do something about that, a rear cockpit view of jumping into hyperspace perhaps?
-Luke would of course just meet the crew "Back at the fleet," already having dealt with his business on Dagobah in between movies and in the opening of this one.
-Wipe to first Throne Room scene on Death Star II. (This transition works really well with Vader's mention of "...a Rebel fleet massing near Sullust?", we then get to see that fleet.)
-Wipe to Rebel Alliance meeting, film continues as is (with appropriate asthetic alterations throughout).

Shuffling the basic story structure of the beginning of RotJ would not only greatly strenghten the film, but also account for the numerous nitpicks presented by its original form. Most importantly in my mind, is Luke actually completing his training on Dagobah with Yoda, and finding out about Anakin. Yes, it is a stretch to believe Luke went for almost a year without mentioning it to Yoda, but it is much more believable than him not even going back in a year, not just to complete his training but to get some answers. I think my new opening crawl does a lot for the story as well. It has been pointed out that the other 5 episodes' crawls all open with important galactic happenings. RotJ? "Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine to..." yeah, not so much. If you look at things with an open mind, this version of events deals with most of the issues that were botched or confusing in the original:
-A second Death Star? So fast?
-The rushed plan to get Han, Luke's late arrival. (sort of)
-Desperate to rescue Han before having to get back to the Rebel fleet.
-Luke completing his training and discovering the truth about his father.
-Making the film flow together much better instead of feeling like Episode 6A and Episode 6B.
These alterations already go a long way in making RotJ a much more satisfying conclusion to the Star Wars saga. I've had these ideas for a while, and am very happy to finally have a place to share them. Hopefully you'll agree with the general concepts I've presented here. For clarification, this is not taking into account any change to ANH or ESB in regards to the revelation of Luke's parantage, and is going off of the original, official events of Episodes IV and V.

One last thing, it was suggested THIS thread become the ""Bible Thread." Based on how the discussion is turning, I would agree.
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage

These alterations already go a long way in making RotJ a much more satisfying conclusion to the Star Wars saga. I've had these ideas for a while, and am very happy to finally have a place to share them. Hopefully you'll agree with the general concepts I've presented here. For clarification, this is not taking into account any change to ANH or ESB in regards to the revelation of Luke's parantage, and is going off of the original, official events of Episodes IV and V.

Now, THAT'S what I'm talking about! Phenomenal post, CC! That structure is a definite for ROTJ. This is what I mean by taking what we have available to us and re-inventing it. I love the idea of starting out on Dagobah. It makes much more sense. Wipe to the Emperor. Excellent! Tatooine, Luke's late arrival makes sense now. And if we can squeeze anything out of the radio dramas we should. As long as the ghost of Obi-Wan doesn't sit on a log, I'm happy.

The Owen stuff is still a little iffy for me... But...

One last thing, it was suggested THIS thread become the ""Bible Thread." Based on how the discussion is turning, I would agree.


Done.

Oh, and I'm still uploading the Duel clip. It's 111mb. I'll post the link as soon as it's available.

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Okay. The duel is up:

Vader vs Obi-Wan Rematch

Keep in mind, it's a rough cut and the sound mix is far from complete, especially the escape from the landing bay. The sound effects in that sequence will need to be rebuilt from the ground up. But, it's a start, and I'd like to hear what you guys think so far.

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That sites d/l speed blows, but that edit is much better. The ending needs alittle bit of work, but it's must stronger than that other mess.

Good job.

It's a shame that you can't tinker with them in a 'clutched' position, so it looks like they are struggling back and forth at a moment, almost at an empass.

I would add in some more dialogue from Vader or some off screen stuff from Ben. Possibly a Vader "You don't know the Power of the Dark Side" right after Obi Wan smiles and right before Vader strikes him. Re-using some frames, or just playing them back again...it would allow for the score to sync up alittle bit more or finish and would also look back towards "You underestimate my powers".

I'd also add some more saber clashes while Luke is running out, so it doesn't look like off screen they are just standing there. You kinda need to link the two images together, since you've not cut them out of place. The Saber clashes would be a small step, at the worst, you could rotoscope that (blah) to include the same background behind Ben from the opening area he is fighting in.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Godda*n, Commander Courage--
That is a fantastic list of changes to ROTJ. I want to work on THAT.

The potential of doing ROTJ next is attractive -- it is like Episode II -- the weakest of its respective trilogy. With SOTD and a new ROTJ, we'd be a hell of a lot closer to a Saga. Trooperman likes MagFan's Episode I and the rest of the OT. ROTS is being tweaked by many already (although only the Trooperman voiced Anakin can fully complete the set). I mean, if we got a Ranch style Episode I done and an ROTJ -- well that would be close to a "Trooperman" approved saga.

I'd still have some major beef with ANH -- but so few other people seem to agree. Even my wife can't see Obi Wan's lying for the cancer that it is.

Maybe I need to be shown the light -- how do you account for the lying, Commander? What good did it do him to lie to Luke? I need to believe something big was gained by Obi Wan being so deceptive before I can be okay with this scene being in Episode IV. It works just fine in Star Wars, the stand alone movie as it was released and designed -- when it WASN'T a lie. But now it's a lie that, as far as I can figure, gets him exactly nowhere and sets Luke up for a terrible fall.

But that issue aside -- I think InfoDroid could do a quicker pass through ANH to add the few ques and tweaks that blend it into Episode III without changing that beat and finish faster. Maybe that's wisest at this point since we all know Trooperman doesn't want to change it. There's still plenty to tweak and construct -- I think it's necessary to get the Emperor at least one scene in ANH (and we do have material we plan to cut from the prequels available to us).

Anyway, I'm excited as hell by those ROTJ ideas.

What if Lando, Leia and Chewie start their effort to free Han before Luke returns. If we could somehow let Luke's return from training be "just in time" to save his friends again, it would add even more justification to that awful plan of theirs. Essentially -- Leia's plan was to get Han, Chewie and Lando out in the middle of night, but she got caught. ...Then Luke arrives. I don't know how to handle the droids off the top of my head, but this idea solves a lot of problems for me.

Mix in all the changes suggested earlier regarding radio dialogue and a make-over to the Ewoks and we may really have something great on our hands.

I'd like to beef up Han's story as well, CC. The main issue is that he is played as a second banana. He doesn't get to be a rogue, really. So he comes off as immasculated somewhat. I'd like to work in more skeptical and recognizable Han material and lose some of the beats that feel "off."

I see major opportunities for making the Death Star destruction better too -- Luke's escape is timed poorly vis-a-vis Lando's. They should be simultaneously escaping the exploding battle station -- Luke gets out too soon. I wonder if we couldn't do with less of Lando's co-pilot as well?

Anyway-- this must be the Bible thread because we are now officially all over the map.