MTHaslett, I am wondering about this force talk that Anakin uses. We know Anakin can do this later as Vader (to Luke in ESB), but is this the best place to introduce it? In Episode I, it seems that nobody on Tatooine knows he's special. But you have him using his force talk with a complete stranger. It's implied that either 1) this is the first time he's used this power, or 2) he's done this before, but apparently nobody thought it was unusual. Just some food for thought.
Good point, Erikstormtrooper. I felt it naturally was the first time he'd used the power and that Padme struck him as an angel, so he "reached out" to her. There's nothing to tell us this, but I'm counting on it feeling as natural to everyone else as it does to me.
The weight on my side is that this energizes the scene and allows this "chosen one" to act chosen.
I'm glad the changes mostly sound so exciting to people -- they aren't easy to come up with or to execute, so they're taking some time.
Plus, the contractor just started tearing apart my kitchen today!
Sorry I've been out of touch for the last few days. My computer was being worked on. But, I'm back and ready to get to work.
I've read the latest script, MTH, and I've seen TJ's edit of it. And I'm very excited about how this scene has turned out! Excellent work, once again! Most impressive...
To answer Erik's concern, my opinion is that the "Force talk" works on a multitude of levels.
1) It emphasizes the "special connection" that he immediately has with Padme. It's almost as if it's always been there, from the beginning of time. It's destiny ripening into reality within that very moment -- their meeting in Watto's shop is like a stone being dropped into a pond, radiating ripples from it which will effect the future of the entire galaxy.
Maybe he's used telepathy before with his mother, which is why she's so confident of his power. Maybe it only works on certain people, or people he has a strong connection with. One would immediately ask why he didn't use it on Watto, but as we find out later in the scene, Toydarians are immune to mind tricks.
2) The second reason the idea works is that it establishes a link from Jake Lloyd to the character of Darth Vader. We've all seen Vader talking telepathically to Luke, it will seem only natural to see Anakin doing the same, while stengthening the connection between our seperate perceptions of both of those characters. And for first-time viewers it will have the same effect, just in opposite order as they get deeper into the saga, reminding the viewer that the guy in the suit is still "that little boy we met on Tattooine", adding a new layer of subtext to that scene in ESB, reminding us of his meeting with Padme and the consequences that followed, causing the scene to be even more powerful than it already is. IMO, the more Vader behavior we can give to Anakin, the better. Without going overboard, of course.
and 3) In a small way, it improves the horribly stilted performance of Jake Lloyd, which I think is reason enough alone to go through with it.
So, I think we can say for sure it's gonna stay, barring any technical problems, of course.
I picked up the "Memoirs of a Geisha" and "War of the Worlds" soundtracks and I'm combing them for usable material. I was happy to see John Williams just won a Golden Globe for "Memoirs" the other night for Best Score for a Motion Picture. There's a track I think I might like to use for Palpatine's talk with Amidala on Coruscant. It's a piece which sounds a lot like the "I'm appointing you to be my personal representative on the Jedi Council" scene from ROTS. I also have some ideas for the senate scene as well. You'll hear it when we get to that point in the script.
That's about all for now. Talk to you later, Guys.
--InfoDroid
Wishing we could skip the pod race and go right into Coruscant...
I usually stay away from the Star Wars stuff--I'm more of a casual fan of Star Wars--but I thought I'd chime in on the scene with this "force talk" ability. Personally, I really like it. One of the major weaknesses of the prequels is that there really doesn't seem to be a strong connection between the first three and the last three. So hinting at Vader's abilities as a young child is an excellent way of tying Anakin to Vader. Nice idea.
Thanks for the contribution, Tweaker. Yours is an interesting perspective, considering we're trying to elevate this version of Episode I not only up to OT-quality, but also just "Damn Good Movie"-quality. Like Gladiator, Lord of the Rings, or The Godfather.
So, it's good to have that "casual fan's" objective, outsider's opinion. It's very important for us who are die-hards to not take certain story elements for granted simply because we immerse ourselves in it and expect everyone else in the world to do the same. This episode above any of the others should be targeted at a first-time viewer who has never seen Star Wars before or has a limited knowledge of it. My point being, things should be overt on screen. A viewer shouldn't have to read a novel by James Luceno to understand what's going on.
I think so far, with MTH's writing, we're accomplishing that. So, thanks again Tweaker. I'm glad you liked the idea, and feel welcome to comment further in the future.
I also want to say to everyone who reads this thread regularly: MTH has been very busy lately and doesn't mind getting a little help with the script. If you'd like to post a speculative version of the next chunk of the screenplay (picking up where MTH left off) then please post it on this thread. The rest of us can take a look at it and decide whether or not to use it. I hope by now everyone has a pretty good idea of where we're going with this.
Thanks, Guys. Keep the ideas flowing. This is "The Ranch", after all.
-i suppose we'll keep the dialouge between obi and quigon about needing credits for the hyperdrive generator. I don't know if there is anything worthwhile in the jar jar/quigon scene. You could maybe cut that part and keep the quigon line "we have nothing of value, that's our problem" and use it in another scene with watto.
-The sebulba/anakin scene has alot of potential to be an interesting/serious scene, considering that we can change the dialouge of both characters to whatever we want. My idea would be to cut the sequence of jar jar going "hungry crazy" and flipping the fish onto sebulba. When cutting to this scene, cut right from the point where sebulba is getting up and leashing out at jar jar (maybe add that sebulba just REALLY hates gungans) and throw in some SCARY like music. I think there should be some creepy music going through this whole scene to create sebulba into a menacing and threatening character. We should fear for anakin having to go up against a greesy monster. You could slow down the shots of sebulba so it would appear he's talking snidely at anakin. As far as their conversation? It should be something more serious than "i'm going to squash you at the podrace" type babble.
-My next idea is one I want you guys to consider, or let me know if it seems flawed. In the original cut when qui-gon says 'thank you , young friend" ....they just walk off and anakin, for no reason, simplys bobs along with them. That always seemed off to me, I got the impression qui-gon was thanking him and hinting at the boy to be on his way as they are busy.
-So, after Quigon thanks Anakin, as they are walking off add in the line from anakin "do you have shelter"? Then cut immediately to the scene right after Jira (the weird old lady) , this is where they are walking away with anakin mentioning a sand storm and that they can stay at his place. -THEN, cut to the scene with obi wan and panaka outside, cut all their dialouge but leave in "we're receiving a messege from home". -THEN, swipe to the shot of obiwan in the ship with the crew watching the hologram of sio bibble. - after obi wan walks off screen, cut to shot of anakin w/crew walking from the sandstorm into his house.
I feel this is a more fluid cut of the sequence. The only thing that you lose is the scene with anakin noticing qui-gons lightsaber. But if you think about it , wouldn't it be better if anakin just sensed that qui-gon was a strong force user and possibly a jedi? I mean, getting a glimpse at a lightsaber is a no brainer. I like the scene where anakin looks at quigon and says "your a jedi knight, arn't you?".......this line would have more of an impact if he wasn't given any hints. This also fixes the quick plot whole of the group deciding to hang out with anakin while he's getting fruit and talking with old ladies. It cuts the shots with obi wan together nicely. The guys in the ship said "we're receiving a messege", then it feels like a while till we're in the ship watching the messege........why not just put them together with solid music behind it? You could take the obi/quigon conversation of "what if it is true and the people are dying" and place it somewhere after the dinner scene.
-For the record I think that Magfan did fantastic edits of the dinner scene and the podrace. I think we could use a change of music for the dinner scene, but i'm kind of a fan of the "swoop bike/beggars canyon" track that he used for the pod race. I use to get soo bored with the old podrace, but the way magfan put it together made me love it. I look forward to that scene everytime I watch it.
-Another quick thing I noticed is that we can alter ALL of threepios lines if we wished. There is TONS of dialouge from the OT radio dramas that could be inserted. I just feel that in THe phantom menace, Threepio kinda talks like 3P0, and kinda DOESN'T. Ya know, if you look at it 3PO is kinda bitchy ALL through the OT. Maybe he should be more bitchy in this one as well, it's just what makes him funny. Thing about it ................
Don't have long to reply -- but Darth Preston gets my vote for new resident genius. I love all those ideas. I had a different approach to the coming sandstorm/receiving message beat -- but otherwise I'm going to work with these ideas as I hadn't figured out anything. Now I'm excited!
I also agree about Magfan's great work on the dinner and podrace. I think we have one more wrinkle to add to the pod-race as that will be where QG gets the final confirmation that Anakin is THE ONE. But we'll build from BotF and not TPM.
This project just sounds great and I wish you best luck with completing it. There are some ideas that I really love (especially considering RotJ) and I definitely look forward to seeing your editions. Good job .
Excellent, darthpreston! I'm glad MTH likes it too.
I love the cutting out of Jira and the fact it makes Anakin's intuition seem stronger by cutting out the part with QG's saber. The scene with Jar-Jar and Sebulba has always been horrible, but it's very, very tricky to cut around. If you cut the confrontation, then Anakin appears out of nowhere, and if you just cut the beginning then it might not make sense why Sebulba just jumps up and starts hitting Jar-Jar, considering he's probably never seen a Gungan. UNLESS, we make the subtitles say "I hate Gungans!" Who knows? Maybe he has met Gungans in the past, maybe they screwed him over somehow. That could work.
Regarding the pod race, if you guys can figure out how to make it flow better visually, I promise I won't disappoint musically. I have several things in mind. The problem with the race now is that it's so exhausting, it takes forever. If the focus is put only on Anakin and Sebulba and the actions they take, then it should seem faster, clearer and more exiting. No pit droid stops, no shots of superfluous racers crashing into walls unless propelled by Anakin or Sebulba.
Here's an idea, I'm not sure if it'll be well-received, but I always wondered, if Yoda says lifting objects with the Force is not about size and weight (meaning you can lift an X-Wing as easily as you can lift a rock), then why didn't Anakin use his power to steer or Force-push some of those other pods out of his way (and out of the race)? Vader would've done it. Focus on Sebulba using dirty tricks and Anakin using the Force, keep cool stuff like the Tuskens and the Jawas, but cut all the superfluous stuff out (including Jabba, right MTH?). And do we really need a two-headed commentator? I vote for getting rid of the commentator all together, or dubbing him with a different language and subtitling him. He's just too annoying and cartoonish.
And regarding your C-3PO idea, darthpreston, I'm in 100% agreement. I always hated his sickeningly sweet demeanor in all three prequels. He's MUCH funnier when he's bitching. "They'll never get me onto one of those dreadful starships" is about the only thing worth saving. If anyone knows where I can still get a copy of the radio dramas, or other sources of 3PO dialogue, please let me know. I know there's a lot out there.
Erik, I'm not sure about the telepathy in II and III, you'll have to talk to Trooperman about that. I'd support it. The place you propose would be a perfect place, looking out the window of the Jedi Temple.
I like Anakin using the Force to get Sebulba out of the way. Perhaps some of the other pods as well. However, it should be done in a way where Anakin doesn't really know what he's capable of. It reminds me of the latest Harry Potter book where we observe Voldemort using magic to hurt other children as a kid. Not a bad parallel. My suggestion for how the final scene between Anakin and Sebulba should be done:
Anakin is following Sebulba. Use a close-up of Anakin from the pan-and-scan version to signal that he's staring intensely at his opponent. At this point, the Force theme should kick in. Now cut to Qui-Gon pondering about something - he can sense what's happening. Suddenly, Anakin succeeds. A white flash appears (this may be too goofy, but the use of the Force should be indicated somehow) and Sebulba loses control of his pod and crashes. Anakin speeds up and wins the race. It shows that Anakin is indeed very powerful, but also foreshadows that he will use the Force for wreaking havoc.
And I agree with you on the two-headed commentator, InfoDroid. As of now, he doesn't work. "The things that stick in my mind and make me laugh were, like, memos worried about whether or not the Wookie should have pants. They're looking at this thing and saying, "Couldn't he have some lederhosen?" This is great. Of all the things to worry about, the Wookie has no pants." -Mark Hamill
InfoDroid, do you have a problem with the BotF podrace? Because I love it already -- I just want to refocus the attention on Qui Gonn's watching the race -- that's the important thing: our Main Character.
As for Force Pushing others out of the way -- maybe Vader would do it, but the point of the PT is that Anakin and Vader are totally different. You really prefer Anakin being too lame a driver to out race these other guys, so he Force Pushes them aside so he can win? I prefer seeing the "best star pilot in the galaxy" strut his stuff. That's Anakin and not Vader. We want to see hints that Anakin can become Vader, but keep it clear that he is not on the Dark Side in any way yet.
MTH, I'll need to watch BotF again closely to give my opinion. I remember liking it a lot better than the original, but I still think it might need to be streamlined a little bit. I'll get back to you on that.
I understand what you're saying about Anakin, and you're right, the characters are supposed to act differently. But, ultimately, it's about the same person with the same powers making different choices. We wouldn't want him riding down the track throwing people into walls indiscriminantly. But like Olzen said, it could be done in a way which is more like a reflex, a spike of anger lashing out. Yes Anakin is good, but he's still an angry, trapped, and bullied little boy with an enormous of power he doesn't really know what to do with, plus Sebulba's been trying to kill him the entire time. IF we do it, it should only be once, and it should be against Sebulba at the end of the race, and it should seem as though Anakin is desperately cornered and has no other option.
Thoughts, MTH? Should we do it? Or are you vehemently against it?
Yeah, give us notes from BotF as a start for the race -- I will too.
As to Force Pushing -- I'd have to be shown how Anakin comes off as bullied or angry or anything but happy to be racing again. Giving him Force Pushes in the race diminishes his piloting ability -- someone good enough to win without Force Pushes is better than someone who lashes out and stuff.
We'd need to look for a place to do it -- like if he used the force instead of that magnet hammer to get his loose hose back or something. Using the Force to cheat in a race would turn Qui Gonn off; but maybe using the Force to fend off an attack so he can win fair and square might work. I mean, we're looking to see if this guy is the CHOSEN ONE, not just some gifted kid. It's like if we saw the Bhudda or Jesus using special powers to win at cards or something -- you'd just know in an instant: this guy may be powerful, but he ain't the Chosen One.
Allow me to draw another Harry Potter-parallel (although Star Wars and Harry Potter should probably be kept seperate). Even after seeing the damage Voldemort had caused, Dumbledore allowed him to go the Hogwarts. The kid was a bully, but he was probably among the most powerful potential wizards Dumbledore had seen. IMO, Anakin using the Force accidentally would not ruin him being the Chosen One. It shows that he has great powers, but that he has not yet learned to control them. It would not be because he meant to do it - he should probably be as baffled as the crowd - more like a reflex, like InfoDroid said. So he would not have learned to use the Force at this point, but he has the abilities. "The things that stick in my mind and make me laugh were, like, memos worried about whether or not the Wookie should have pants. They're looking at this thing and saying, "Couldn't he have some lederhosen?" This is great. Of all the things to worry about, the Wookie has no pants." -Mark Hamill
MTH: He's bullied by Sebulba in more than one scene before the race. He's a slave to Watto who treats him like crap. His friends make fun of him, telling him he's going to be "bug squat" or whatever. That sort of treatment causes a great deal of anger in a person. He's happy to be helping people and racing again so he can feel a sense of approval from someone other than his mother.
I don't think it diminishes his ability at all. He plays fair through the whole race. But after Sebulba sabotages his pod, ambushes him, uses flame throwers and everything else, I don't think we can blame him for finally defending himself at the very end. And again, it would be more of a reflex, an unintentional burst of power that just happens to seal the deal for him after it's clear Sebulba wasn't looking for a fair race. QG may sense it, but figure it can be dealt with later in his training. The boy's abilities become extremely apparent, instead of just a vague "feeling" QG has.
Remember, he's lost all the other races he's been in. He may be a good pilot, but it's his use of the Force that will put him over the top this time. More importantly, what Anakin learns from winning the race is a very dangerous thing, that he can control his destiny and others' by using his power even when he knows he shouldn't do it -- An echo of what's to come later, when he wants to control other things in his life, but his powers aren't enough.
That's my opinion right now anyway. Feel free to convince me otherwise.
Sounds like we're all on the same page -- it has to be a use of the Force that's consistent with convincing Qui Gonn that Anakin is the Chosen One. I totally get it now.
The way of doing it has to be specific and cinematic as well as consitent -- so maybe we'll watch the race with this in mind and come up with the way to do it.
As for the bullying -- I see what you mean InfoDroid. I like the take that is mostly there in TPM which is that Anakin lets all that roll off his back. But in the heat of the race, with the right motive and opportunity (in terms of footage we can use) I think a "Force Moment" would be perfect for cementing Qui GOnn's opinion of hte boy.
Ok, somebody please send me a copy of BOTF. I've looked for it on myspleen and can't find it. I also don't remember it showing up in the newsgroups. "You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could...you never stopped to think if you should." - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
Look what happens when my internet goes down: progress! I'm actually not on my own computer right now so this is going to be brief, but here's my input on the latest developments:
-Script: I'd definitely be up for helping out, and in fact was going to suggest doing seeing how much MTH has been doing (and how little I've been contributing lateley). -Sebulba's Introduction: "I hate Gungans" may be the best option, but we'll have to take a look at the footage and what we have to work with. I've always thought the group tagging along with Anakin to buy fruit was odd, but maybe offscreen he offered to buy them some, as he gives them to Qui-Gon. Making Anakin intuitively sense Qui-Gon is a Jedi would be a nice touch, but doing so would lose some of the best dialogue in the movie. "Perhaps I killed a Jedi and took it from him./I don't think so. No one can kill a Jedi./I wish that were so." So I'd say leave the fruit stand/lightsaber reveal in. -Pod Race: I think MagnoliaFan did an excellent job with this, and we should definitely use his as a blueprint. Editing out Jabba, the announcers, the majority of the introductions, and utilizing some of the extended scenes from the DVD was all great. The Shadows of the Empire music was perfect as well. -Threepio: I don't know how much we can alter his dialouge, but Anthony Daniels has done so much Star Wars material over the years there's certainly a multitude of sources to draw from.
Sorry TJ, but my copy of BOTF can't be burned for some reason. It plays fine on my DVD player, but when I pop it into my computer, it doesn't even recognize any information on it. Very odd. PM Bwlag or buy one from Rikter. Unless one of you reading this thread would be nice enough to hook up our editor with a copy of MagFan's edit so he can use it as reference when editing the pod race...
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Making Anakin intuitively sense Qui-Gon is a Jedi would be a nice touch, but doing so would lose some of the best dialogue in the movie. "Perhaps I killed a Jedi and took it from him./I don't think so. No one can kill a Jedi./I wish that were so." So I'd say leave the fruit stand/lightsaber reveal in.
Glad to have you back, CC. I actually forgot about that dialogue, and you're right, it is important to keep it in there. But I don't think that justifies leaving the Jira scene in. I mean, we don't have to actually SEE Anakin noticing QG's "laser sword". Saying it is enough. We simply assume Anakin caught a glimpse of it as they walked to his house.
That's one of the downfalls of TPM, too much exposition. If they're talking about things we haven't seen or can't see, then it's okay, but when the characters are constantly telling each other about events we've just witnessed, then what's the point? It comes off as stale and shallow. So, in that sense, cutting the Jira part might even help that part of the dinner scene.
Can we make the podrace just one lap? This might make it seem shorter and heighten the tension. Maybe use the best parts from all the laps and combine them into one extended lap.
I remember watching Episode I for the first time. When they got to the end of the first lap and started the second, I said to myself "Whoa, nobody said anything about three laps."
And please get rid of the two headed announcer altogether if possible. I HATED that guy.
The next link is for the Commander Courage version of the same bit. Commander Courage Cut"You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could...you never stopped to think if you should." - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
Keep in mind these are very rough, some of the dialogue is there , some is not. The new effects are first generation. Some of the editing is harsh and the picture quality is low to keep file sizes down.
Also, I'm just the editor. If you don't like something blame MTH or Commander Courage. "You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could...you never stopped to think if you should." - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
So, thanks again Tweaker. I'm glad you liked the idea, and feel welcome to comment further in the future.
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