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The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread — Page 2

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This is certainly an interesting project and I would love to see what you come up with.

Some consctructive critiscism:

- "You fought in the Clone Wars" is a jump-cut.
- "How did my father die" - Perhaps you need to work on this. Maybe a c/u of Kenobi to mask the lack of lip sync.
- May I also suggest that if you use the 'echoed voice' on the flash backs that you go the whole hog and colourize the flashbacks. Perhaps washed out or with a blurred edge - something to seperate them from the ANH pictures.

J

Creator of Star Wars Begins, Building Empire and Returning to Jedi
Follow me on twitter @jamieSWB. Please support me at - http://www.patreon.com/jamiebenning/

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"Tell the children of their true parantage we must not, Obi-Wan. Better they believe a different truth than the terrible one that is. Until the time is right, unaware they must be."

I like it. That would work much better than trying to do the whole, "Make Ben tell the truth". Luke's reaction just wouldn't be believable in either film. Besides, I prefer the idea of Luke starting on his journey after having lost everything, and trough supporting a cause, finds the truth of his father and his own genuine purpose. Having him know from the get-go would ruin that, especially considering how his dialogue to Ben upon his return to the farm speaks nothing of wanting to help his father. It would make his actions in Jedi seemingly out of the blue.

There is merit to this, mostly due to it's unofficial nature. Though having the Emperor merely named is enough. I see no point in adding him.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Some consctructive critiscism:

- "You fought in the Clone Wars" is a jump-cut.
- "How did my father die" - Perhaps you need to work on this. Maybe a c/u of Kenobi to mask the lack of lip sync.
- May I also suggest that if you use the 'echoed voice' on the flash backs that you go the whole hog and colourize the flashbacks. Perhaps washed out or with a blurred edge - something to seperate them from the ANH pictures.


This is exactly what I was looking for. The jump-cut was to remove Obi-Wan's comments about Owen not "holding with your father's ideals" wanting him to stay here and not get involved, which now makes no sense in the saga. You're right, Luke's positioning is off on this, and I'll work on it to make it flow better.

"How did my father die" was a challenge because when Luke asks this he's already holding the lightsaber. I thought it would be better to move this question to before the lightsaber scene, but there are issues now with the audio and lip-sync. I'll work on some other options.

The colourization of the flashbacks was definitely something I wanted to do from the very start, but for some reason, when you add those types of effects in Womble, all of a sudden the fps rate goes waaayy down. It starts looking stuttered and jumpy. I don't know what the deal with that is.

Thank you for pointing those issues out, Jambe. I'll work on them. And I can't wait to see your Empire project completed as well.

TO COMMANDER COURAGE: I love you because you rarely agree with anything. That's why you're so valuable to this team, it pushes us to think of something better. By the way, that ROTJ radio drama stuff is GREAT! We have to use it. Is that available on CD?

Forgive me, but I didn't really care for the execution of the clip you posted. The music was too loud, for one thing. It was too fractured and didn't seem to flow musically. BUT, what I DID like was when Vader telepathically called Luke to "Come with me". That was rather creepy. I might use it.

TO MTHASLETT: We've really got to come up with a solid step-by-step plan for Luke's story arc. Because, you're right, it starts with this scene here. If we can't make it work here then eventually all the dominoes will fall.

As a side note, I'm still editing this scene. The one posted is far from a finished product so I encourage everyone to submit their ideas on how to make the scene work better. I just cobbled together another line from Obi-Wan that I'd like to insert somewhere, but I'm not sure where it'll fit. "That is the reason you were hidden from your father when you were born." I've juxtaposed this line with a shot of baby Luke being handed off to Beru, in between "he became Darth Vader" and "he's more machine now than man." I'm not sure if it's working, but it would be a nice thing for him to explain during the conversation.

And one more thing, to those of you saying "flashbacks aren't Star Wars"... Keep in mind this is an entirely new project, editing all six films, so there might be flashbacks/flashforwards through the whole thing. Anything is possible now.

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First off, I'm very happy to see this thread, as I believe there is certainly room to create an entirely new version of the six-episode saga. For the record, I heartily believe that flashbacks can indeed have a place in Star Wars, which is stating the obvious for those of you familiar with my own work-in-progress.

I have a suggestion to start off. There's a much easier way to avoid the whole problem of Obi-Wan lying. It's not quite the route that was already discussed, but I think it could work well.

Simply omit the reference to Vader killing Anakin. Remove the question that Luke asks -- "How did my father die?" Rearrange other dialogue as necessary to make things flow.

I'm quite happy about how this entire scene plays out as is, myself (which is what the BigMigMaker in my project is all about, of course), but I believe the best way to remove the whole problem and avoid losing the impact of Vader's revelation is to simply make it so Obi-Wan never tells him anythign concrete about his death. focus on Obi-Wan talking about Anakin's life. Make it seem as though Obi-Wan wants solely to concentrate on the Jedi, on Luke's father's lightsaber, not the dark times of the fall of the Jedi. Mention that Anakin and Obi-Wan were close friends, somehow including the "He was a pupil of mine" exchange. But avoid the line about Vader killing Anakin.

I believe it can be done, but I don't have much time to write it up this morning after work. Perhaps someone else could take a stab at the idea to see if it plays out well enough?
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"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader
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I was wondering about them flashbacks. If you use footage and audio for flashbacks, are you still going to keep the footage in later on. For example, the Obi-wan sequence in ANH that quotes the monologue from Jedi. If you guys are making this a whole saga or trilogy of whatever, would you cut out the scene in Jedi because the audio was already used in ANH, or would we have it twice? Does this make any sense?
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Originally posted by: InfoDroid
MTHaslett wrote in a different thread:

Okay-- first I want to make clear these changes are only to make ANH fit better into the Saga. Personally the first Star Wars movie is the best, the only one that stands on its own, flawlessly and magically. ESB is nice, but it doesn't end and we all know how that turned out ;-P

But to turn this into a Saga that one enjoys best in a 1,2,3,4,5,6 fashion, some sacred stuff will go if I have my way-- because the 1977 movie was the adventure of Luke Skywalker, but then it became "A New Hope" -- Episode IV in the adventures of Anakin Skywalker.

To embrace the Saga, I'd want more context-- I'd want to see what's the Emperor up to? Since this is our first chance to see Darth Vader in action, I'd tweak things to emphasize this point. I'd emphasize things that reveal Anakin inside the suit-- choices that would once make Anakin cringe now fill his life. I'd show some of Alderann to up the stakes of its destruction...

But the biggest change, and the biggest issue heading into the OT, regards the issue that Vader is Luke's Dad. As it stands, Obi Wan chooses to lie to Luke completely and basically set Luke up for a gigantic fall for no good reason. The only way this makes sense is if we can be kept in the dark about Vader's identity-- but now that's impossible. It's not even desirable or necessary-- make the change that redeems Obi Wan and makes him honorable again: have Ben tell Luke that Vader is his father.

It means manipulating the scene where he gives Luke the lightsaber. Have Ben explain that Anakin was a great Jedi and a good man, but that he was seduced by the Dark Side as sometimes happens. Those were harsh times and choices had to be made, so Luke was hidden from his father and Uncle Owen doesn't want Luke to know the truth. But now Princess Leia and the Rebellion need Luke.

Luke's reaction would be to join Ben more quickly, but on his trip to say goodbye to Owen, he finds them dead. His reactions throughout the rest of the movie are already, with minor adjustments, appropriate to acommodate this change.

And man, does it charge the rest of the movie up knowing that Luke already knows Vader's identity. It necessitates tweaks throughout, but not all that much.

Then, in "Empire Strikes Back," the adjustment needs to be made setting up Luke for the big reveal: that Obi Wan is the one who basically killed Anakin. Obi Wan didn't mention this. He lied! Vader doesn't want to kill Luke-- Luke can join him and rule the Galaxy! Defeated, and without options, Luke chooses suicide -- only to be rescued.

Then things carry on-- adjusting for these fixes as they go. (Along with a LOT more when we get to the crap-fest at Jabba's palace and the over-doing it with the Ewoks).

I realize this sounds drastic-- but it sure fixes things for me. Especially as regards fitting ANH into the Saga. In this draft, Obi Wan becomes as honorable as he seemed when the first movie was all there was.


THAT COULD WORK FOR ME.

"I'VE GROWN TIRED OF ASKING, SO THIS WILL BE THE LAST TIME..."
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I don't think this is going to work. Aside from the fact that it will be technically very difficult to manufacture natural sounding new lines for Vader and that Luke's current lines don't work with this storyline:

1) the ESB scene is shot and played as a hugely dramatic revelation. Vader revealing that Obi-Wan tried to kill him after he turned to evil would not engender the type of reaction that Luke has in that scene;
2) the premise of the idea is to "redeem Obi Wan and make him honorable again" but it still turns upon the fact that "Obi Wan didn't mention this. He lied!"

There's not a lot of redemptive/honor-oriented difference between Ben concealing Vader's relationship to Luke and concealing his attempted killing of Vader.

Anyway, in ANH, Ben isn't lying to Luke to manipulate him, he is trying to protect him.

Not to mention that the ESB scene is one of the high points of the OT as it is - and if it aint broke...
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Originally posted by: Klingon_Jedi
"Tell the children of their true parantage we must not, Obi-Wan. Better they believe a different truth than the terrible one that is. Until the time is right, unaware they must be."

I like it. That would work much better than trying to do the whole, "Make Ben tell the truth". Luke's reaction just wouldn't be believable in either film. Besides, I prefer the idea of Luke starting on his journey after having lost everything, and trough supporting a cause, finds the truth of his father and his own genuine purpose. Having him know from the get-go would ruin that, especially considering how his dialogue to Ben upon his return to the farm speaks nothing of wanting to help his father. It would make his actions in Jedi seemingly out of the blue.

There is merit to this, mostly due to it's unofficial nature. Though having the Emperor merely named is enough. I see no point in adding him.


YES, THAT WORKS MUCH BETTER.

"I'VE GROWN TIRED OF ASKING, SO THIS WILL BE THE LAST TIME..."
The Mangler Bros. Psycho Dayv Armchaireviews Notes on Suicide

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Originally posted by: Sluggo
I was wondering about them flashbacks. If you use footage and audio for flashbacks, are you still going to keep the footage in later on. For example, the Obi-wan sequence in ANH that quotes the monologue from Jedi. If you guys are making this a whole saga or trilogy of whatever, would you cut out the scene in Jedi because the audio was already used in ANH, or would we have it twice? Does this make any sense?

No, the scene would be cut. Besides, the ghost of Obi-Wan is SITTING on a log! I always hated that. The part that makes this inconvenient is the revelation of Leia as his sister. But it could be handled another way. Lots of other ways actually.

Originally posted by THX:
Not to mention that the ESB scene is one of the high points of the OT as it is - and if it aint broke...


Yeah, but if you watch the episodes in order, the big surprise is already ruined. The only high point is seeing Luke's reaction when he finally finds out, and you have to admit... It's overplayed. "NOOOOOOOOO!"

Also, keep in mind that the Obi-Wan scene in ANH is not the only scene being changed. Luke's entire story will now be affected by this. So, by the time we get to Cloud City the events that take place there will feel very natural. Remember, we're doing this to plug plot holes, not create new ones. Don't worry, we have no intention of ruining Empire Strikes Back by doing this. We're all going to be giving the whole saga an in-depth and thorough analysis before slapping something together and hypocritically throwing it out there. If we did, we'd be no better than Prequel-era Lucas.

Originally Posted by Commander Courage:
My biggest problem with the idea of Obi-Wan telling Luke exactly what happened to Anakin in the very beginning is Luke's reaction. He just stares at Old Ben dumbfounded as he reveals that his father's not really dead, but an agent of evil responsible for the extermination of the Jedi order. And oh, by the way, here's his lightsaber: you should have it. I appreciate what we're trying to do here with Obi-Wan's character, but it's just not going go smoothly, and will create more problems than it solves.


I understand what you're saying, but why don't we just give it a chance and see what we can come up with, see how far we can push it? If, in the end, we decide it was the wrong decision, then we can always pull it back to something more along the lines of what TheDemonHunter suggested above.

None of this is etched in stone... yet.

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Thanks for your reply. However, you didn't address points 1) & 2) from my post. I have no objection to your edit in principle - this is intended to be constructive criticism. After all it's better to work out your ideas in full now than do all the work and then find they don't work.

Klingon_Jedi's idea for Ep III ("Tell the children of their true parantage we must not, Obi-Wan. Better they believe a different truth than the terrible one that is. Until the time is right, unaware they must be.") seems much better.

If you really don't want Ben to lie, then TheDemonHunter's idea (cut "how did my father die") could be made to work, or you could just have Ben not answer that question.

Most importantly, from the "saga" point of view, IT DOESN'T MATTER that we know Vader is Luke's father from the PT and he doesn't. The revelation still works if it's only to Luke, and it's arguably more interesting for the audience to be party to information that he doesn't have, wondering IF and WHEN he'll find out.
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It's hardly surprising to see how divisive the idea of Making Ben Tell the Truth is. It f**ks with the best known scenes in the OT.

But to go the route of more justification ("know their true lineage they cannot...") or to just avoid the issue until Vader reveals it to Luke has to be considered a back-up plan until it's proven that this cannot work -- at least in my opinion. The reasons are clear to me:

The "reveal" in ESB is broken in the Saga. We already know the truth. The only reason it worked in the OT as a "reveal" is that we didn't know. Not even Lucas knew.

The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."

Then ROTJ is all about Luke's sudden awakening to the good inside Vader. A "good" which was nowhere in evidence in any of the first two movies. But, by golly, Luke was right as Vader starts mooning around about his inner conflict.

This is the SPINE of the OT -- and it's fine and pleasant as they played out originally. They were astonishing and fantastic. But they barely hold together -- and with the introduction of the PT, they creak very loudly.

But IF (and I admit it's still a big IF) we can get Ben to be honorable. Get Luke to know his parentage. Make Yoda's training clearly about facing Vader. Make Luke's rash decision more informed. Vader's surprise will be less SHOCKING, but the same decision by Luke remains: he chooses to destroy himself instead of join Vader. But now that scene actually reflects some insight into Vader -- Luke knows Anakin is still inside there somewhere because Vader reaches out to him when we thought that side of Vader was dead.

Then ROTJ will have the power its supposed to. Then it really will feel like the CLIMAX of the Saga instead of the limping collapse of the Saga which is more how it feels to me now.

It'll be concrete ideas that sway anyone's opinion, I know. One thing I learned on the SOTD thread is that Trooperman's clear vision and dedication to crazy ideas (over-dubbing Anakin!?!?) won me over in the long run. I'm at the "drawing board" still with this "Ben Tells the Truth" version of the OT -- but I deeply believe it will improve the entire Saga.

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That ANH lightsaber duel is pretty good, but VERY rough. The musical cues are way off. When they begin to talk about 'you can't win Darth' the cue should be from the "1:58" on Track 3 of the ROTS soundtrack. It is the moment in ROTS when the two talk, and it blends it much better. There is alot of mixed themes in that version that are distracting.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Oh, and the server for that flashback site blows. I'm downloading at 8kb/s where as the duel scene was upwards of 350.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Originally posted by: Hardcore Legend
That ANH lightsaber duel is pretty good, but VERY rough. The musical cues are way off. When they begin to talk about 'you can't win Darth' the cue should be from the "1:58" on Track 3 of the ROTS soundtrack. It is the moment in ROTS when the two talk, and it blends it much better. There is alot of mixed themes in that version that are distracting.

Yeah, I agree. I have no idea where that clip came from.


Originally posted by THX:
Thanks for your reply. However, you didn't address points 1) & 2) from my post. I have no objection to your edit in principle - this is intended to be constructive criticism. After all it's better to work out your ideas in full now than do all the work and then find they don't work.


Okay, sorry I didn't give you a complete enough response. As I've said, the plans are not yet concrete, and I agree that if the revelation is changed to "Obi-Wan killed your father", then we'll be right back where we started as far as Obi-Wan's honesty is concerned. So, that's not really a viable option. However, there might not be a need for this "big revelation" at all. The fact that Luke faces Vader, gets his hand cut off and then decides to jump into a bottomless chasm before he'll turn to the Dark Side, I think is a pretty big climax already. Now, if we can add another level to that to make it even more interesting, that would be fantastic.

And the Yoda idea is simply not feasible, because there is no recorded Yoda dialogue that's anywhere near what Commander Courage, KlingonJedi or anyone else has suggested. I mean, I don't have Rob Coleman and Frank Oz locked in my basement, I'm sorry to say. We have to have a source for this stuff to be able to integrate it into the movie.

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Oh yeah -- I forgot to comment on the duel clip.

InfoDroid -- did you see nothing of value there? I agree with your comments about the mix, but I was pretty blown away by the general effect. The "Saga" version of the duel is much better reflected with the new music cues and sharper action.

I didn't understand why Obi Wan's line "run, Luke, run!" was replaced with Vader's voice. I think that jumps the gun because if Vader knew Luke were on the Death Star, he wouldn't give a good damn about dueling with Obi Wan.

I watch these two clips back to back and feel a much more "Saga" oriented movie already.

But there is an aesthetic choice you face, InfoDroid: what "look" are you going for?

Trooperman has the intention of "aging" the prequels. We are in danger here of "de-aging" the OT. My opinion is that the SE versions of the OT have many aesthetic changes that match better with the PT, but I think my ideal "Saga" would all have as much OT style as possible. That means music cues, story-telling choices, seamless effects (as much as possible-- avoiding bad CGI whenever possible), and "flash-frames" in the duels and laser-battles. But what do you think?

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
It's hardly surprising to see how divisive the idea of Making Ben Tell the Truth is.
But you're not "Making Ben Tell the Truth", you're making him tell Luke Vader is his father, while withholding the fact that he tried to kill him. This is a selective truth, just like the official version.

they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."

The same reason you don't have Ben tell Luke about his attempt to kill Anakin.

The "reveal" in ESB is broken in the Saga. We already know the truth. The only reason it worked in the OT as a "reveal" is that we didn't know.

I repeat: from the "saga" point of view, IT DOESN'T MATTER that we know Vader is Luke's father from the PT and he doesn't. The revelation still works if it's only to Luke, and it's arguably more interesting for the audience to be party to information that he doesn't have, wondering IF and WHEN he'll find out.

Question: How can Vader make the "shocking" revelation that Ben tried to kill him in ESB, when Luke watched Ben try to kill Vader in ANH?
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TO COMMANDER COURAGE: I love you because you rarely agree with anything. That's why you're so valuable to this team, it pushes us to think of something better. By the way, that ROTJ radio drama stuff is GREAT! We have to use it. Is that available on CD?
Thank you, that's quite a compliment. And yes, all 3 Radio Dramas are available on CD. I have them on copied cassette tapes though, so I will be of no use to you in your search for sources.

I understand what you're saying, but why don't we just give it a chance and see what we can come up with, see how far we can push it? If, in the end, we decide it was the wrong decision, then we can always pull it back to something more along the lines of what TheDemonHunter suggested above.
After all it's better to work out your ideas in full now than do all the work and then find they don't work.
But to go the route of more justification ("know their true lineage they cannot...") or to just avoid the issue until Vader reveals it to Luke has to be considered a back-up plan until it's proven that this cannot work -- at least in my opinion.

This pretty much summarizes my stance on this for the time being. I'm pleasantly surprised everyone seems to like my suggested Yoda dialogue. I wasn't really thinking of that in terms of an edit, rather "I wish they would have done this in the movie." Now the question is whether we can cobble something together along those lines for RotS. Our deleted scenes with Yoda will be an invaluble source, but if there's not enough Frank Oz material, we can always grab some Grover lines from Sesame Street.

The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."

Now THAT'S an idea. That would indeed be an ideal time to reveal the truth. Plus, there would be no need for out of place flashbacks to explain Obi-Wan's ghostly voice. It deals with a lot of my issues with RotJ as well; it took a YEAR to go back to Dagobah to get an answer as to Vader's identity? Obi-Wan NEVER appeared to Luke during that time to offer any kind of explanation or at least remind him to get back to this training? (I have more RotJ ideas on how to deal with those and other related issues, but those are for another time.)Very interesting concept here. Thoughts?

Forgive me, but I didn't really care for the execution of the clip you posted. The music was too loud, for one thing. It was too fractured and didn't seem to flow musically. BUT, what I DID like was when Vader telepathically called Luke to "Come with me". That was rather creepy. I might use it.

NO! That's the one thing I DIDN'T like. Hahaha, this is so true about my tendency to disagree. But no, Vader should not know who Luke is at this point, and Ben's "Run Luke, run!" is essential. As for the specifics of the clip, yes it is very rough, and obviously the editor did not have top of the line tech. However I thought many of the music cues were great. The Force theme when Obi-Wan speaks of immortality (though Hardcore Legend' suggestion may indeed be superior), the transition from there back into Battle of the Heroes as their sabers clash again, and the crescendo into the Duel of the Fates sounding clip of BotH during the longshot of their surprisingly rapid bit of fencing. Then of course the music accompanying Obi-Wan death and the escape from the Death Star is amazing, much more appropriate than the sped-up Princess Leia's theme used original.
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Oh yeah -- I forgot to comment on the duel clip.

InfoDroid -- did you see nothing of value there? I agree with your comments about the mix, but I was pretty blown away by the general effect. The "Saga" version of the duel is much better reflected with the new music cues and sharper action.

I mean no disrespect to whoever created it, it's just hard to enjoy something that's so highly compressed quality-wise and difficult to really judge how good it is. As I explained earlier in the SOTDS thread, I've already started work on an edit of this scene utilizing the "Obi-Wan vs. Anakin" track from ROTS. And yes, I'm thrilled with the results of the juxtaposition. I guess I was just comparing it to mine.

I'll be posting mine pretty soon.

I didn't understand why Obi Wan's line "run, Luke, run!" was replaced with Vader's voice. I think that jumps the gun because if Vader knew Luke were on the Death Star, he wouldn't give a good damn about dueling with Obi Wan.


Very true. But it was still kind of a cool effect, that makes you think more about the possibilities of this whole Jedi telepathy thing. Especially regarding Anakin.

But there is an aesthetic choice you face, InfoDroid: what "look" are you going for? Trooperman has the intention of "aging" the prequels. We are in danger here of "de-aging" the OT. My opinion is that the SE versions of the OT have many aesthetic changes that match better with the PT, but I think my ideal "Saga" would all have as much OT style as possible. That means music cues, story-telling choices, seamless effects (as much as possible-- avoiding bad CGI whenever possible), and "flash-frames" in the duels and laser-battles. But what do you think?


I want whatever we do to be consistent with SOTDS. Including all of the points you mentioned. But, keep in mind I am also limited by what my equipment will do. I've been having trouble in Womble adding effects, even wipes and color changes.

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Originally posted by: THX
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
It's hardly surprising to see how divisive the idea of Making Ben Tell the Truth is.
But you're not "Making Ben Tell the Truth", you're making him tell Luke Vader is his father, while withholding the fact that he tried to kill him. This is a selective truth, just like the official version.

they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."

The same reason you don't have Ben tell Luke about his attempt to kill Anakin.

The "reveal" in ESB is broken in the Saga. We already know the truth. The only reason it worked in the OT as a "reveal" is that we didn't know.

I repeat: from the "saga" point of view, IT DOESN'T MATTER that we know Vader is Luke's father from the PT and he doesn't. The revelation still works if it's only to Luke, and it's arguably more interesting for the audience to be party to information that he doesn't have, wondering IF and WHEN he'll find out.

Question: How can Vader make the "shocking" revelation that Ben tried to kill him in ESB, when Luke watched Ben try to kill Vader in ANH?


You're answering your own questions. I said it won't be a shocking revelation. This version is not about having a shock at the end of Episode V, but telling a story about Luke coming to decide that redeeming Vader is a viable and smart thing to do -- basically fulfilling Anakin's prophecy and getting Anakin's potential as the Chosen One to surface. Vader revealing that Obi Wan tried to kill Anakin won't have anything like the effect of Vader revealing that he is Luke's father. Instead of being a beat about "Ben lied to me!" it'll be a beat about "Anakin is still alive in there." Vader's "reveal" that Obi Wan tried to kill him is on the order of subtext -- Vader tries to get Luke to switch sides by accusing Obi Wan of trying to kill him. Obviously that's not going to work, but it reveals a vulnerability in Vader that approaches desperation. He wants Luke.

At first that's the shock -- "He's not trying to kill me, he's offering me a job!"

Then, after reflection, Luke can honestly say "I sensed there was still good in him." Obi Wan did not lie and thereby hand Vader a giant advantage in swaying Luke to his side. Obi Wan simply spared Luke the gruesome details. Luke can hardly have expected Obi Wan to stand by and watch Anakin wipe out the Jedi.

You can argue that it's more interesting to watch Luke and wonder when he will find out that Obi Wan is a big fat liar and that he and Yoda set him up to be knocked on his ass by a revelation that the audience found out about three movies ago. But that version of the OT already exists. The SAGA is six films about Anakin and Luke's role in the last three films of the complete SAGA is hampered (imho) by this revelation. If the movies were made 1-6 instead of 4-6, then 1-3 -- the idea of a reveal wouldn't have come up.

It's an issue of cleaning up what's there vs. what's intended. If this is supposed to be seen 1-6 and tell the story of the fall and rise of the "chosen one" then the material can be massaged to tell that story clearer.

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Once again, I'd like to encourage your efforts and look forward to seeing the results. Now I'm going to offer some more constructive criticism. Please let me know if you don't find this process useful and I'll stop.

Movies work if and when the characters in them work - we understand and sympathise with their reasons and motivations and these tie directly to the plot of the movie. This is the biggest reason why the OT is better than the PT. If the audience loses touch with the emotions of the character(s), the movie ceases to move them. Now, as soon as Ben tells Luke his father is out there, Luke will have a specific goal - to find and confront his father- which is quite separate from his goal of rescuing the princess (and by extension the galaxy). However, for the rest of the movie, he makes no effort towards this goal. His reaction when he sees his father ("Ben!") is totally inappropriate. Thes factors will put the audience in a position of not understanding their hero - fatal for any movie.

Also, Luke's reactions toward Vader in ESB are totally inappropriate to the scenario you describe.

If you are set on this basic idea, I think you'd be better advised to just cut the "betrayed and murdered your father" bit from Ben's hut and figure out a way to have Ben tell Luke the truth about Vader on Dagobah in ESB.
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BTW, MTH, loved your TPM ideas, please start that thread!
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Right THX, that's just what I suggested:
The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."
Now THAT'S an idea. That would indeed be an ideal time to reveal the truth. Plus, there would be no need for out of place flashbacks to explain Obi-Wan's ghostly voice. It deals with a lot of my issues with RotJ as well; it took a YEAR to go back to Dagobah to get an answer as to Vader's identity? Obi-Wan NEVER appeared to Luke during that time to offer any kind of explanation or at least remind him to get back to this training? (I have more RotJ ideas on how to deal with those and other related issues, but those are for another time.)Very interesting concept here. Thoughts?

We were all posting at once and I think mine got lost in the shuffle so I'm glad you mentioned that again.

And yes MTH, you need to start that Episode I thread ASAP!
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Originally posted by: THX
Once again, I'd like to encourage your efforts and look forward to seeing the results. Now I'm going to offer some more constructive criticism. Please let me know if you don't find this process useful and I'll stop.

Movies work if and when the characters in them work - we understand and sympathise with their reasons and motivations and these tie directly to the plot of the movie. This is the biggest reason why the OT is better than the PT. If the audience loses touch with the emotions of the character(s), the movie ceases to move them. Now, as soon as Ben tells Luke his father is out there, Luke will have a specific goal - to find and confront his father- which is quite separate from his goal of rescuing the princess (and by extension the galaxy). However, for the rest of the movie, he makes no effort towards this goal. His reaction when he sees his father ("Ben!") is totally inappropriate. Thes factors will put the audience in a position of not understanding their hero - fatal for any movie.

Also, Luke's reactions toward Vader in ESB are totally inappropriate to the scenario you describe.

If you are set on this basic idea, I think you'd be better advised to just cut the "betrayed and murdered your father" bit from Ben's hut and figure out a way to have Ben tell Luke the truth about Vader on Dagobah in ESB.


That's quite a leap you're making in my opinion -- any farm boy who rushes off to confront his father, the dark Jedi, would indeed lose me. But a farm boy who's attracted by a message from a princess, learns that his father was not what his uncle said, and that a brave knight needs his help to rescue said princess -- that's a solid character-- and quite like what's there already.

You have no way yet of knowing what the edited Luke's reaction will be to seeing his father, so...

Gotta go, more later. Thanks for the loyal skepticism tho ;-) It's VERY welcome. These kinds of ideas need to be tested if they're ever going to work.

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Personally, I feel that the reveal is not something that is "broken" in the saga. As THX said, having the audience know what Luke doesn't, does not ruin that moment. If you've seen the PT, you're just waiting for Luke to find out what the truth is. Seeing his reaction, seeing the look of betrayal and confusion on his face, that is what the scene is about.

As for the setup for a six-movie saga, I think you're focusing too much on details at the start. If you truly wish to accomplish a cohesive six-part saga, you need to think big picture first. The details can be filled in later and will be much easier if you have the framework in place ahead of time. You'll already know what you should or shouldn't have in each act.

The main character in the PT is Anakin -- it's his story, and we're following his saga. Viewing the OT is viewing the saga of Luke. Focusing on Luke allows us to see where Luke succeeded where Anakin could not. Looking at them as one six-movie saga is fine, so long as you understand that you can use this to show the difference in their developments. As bad as the PT is at times, there are many parallels you can play off of between the OT and PT. Many times they're flip-flopped in some way, but the parallels are there nontheless.

For example, in ESB we see Luke is vulnerable to being lured to the Dark Side if he is not careful, as he acts rashly, throwing himself into action to save his friends, who are the only family he has left. Anakin does much the same in AOTC by leaving his assignment on Naboo to go save his mother on Tatooine, and then again to save Obi-Wan, the only family he has really. Both of them have scenes foreshadowing a turn to the Dark Side -- Luke's is in the tree on Dagobah, where he battles the Vader constructed by his own thoughts, where he is in the armor; Anakin slaughters an entire clan of Tusken Raiders, killing each and every last one.

The sets on Grievous's ship and the DS II throne room are very much alike. I found it somewhat symbolic that Obi-Wan and Anakin must journey downstairs to the Chancellor from the doorway in the third act of Anakin's arc, where Luke must climb the stairs, rising up against the Emperor. One shows the fall of the Jedi and one shows their rise, whether this is the intended message by Lucas or not. Anakin descends into darkness to beat Dooku. Luke, when in shadow under the stairs, gives in to the Dark Side against Vader, in a seeming parallel of events from ROTS. But Luke sees the parallel himself and realizes the error of his ways, giving him the difference needed to stay away from Emperor's clutches.

I'm a bit short on time here at the moment, but I'll post my list of parallels tomorrow. For now though, this looks like a very interesting project and I look forward to it being completed sometime.
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"Luminous beings are we -- not this crude matter." ~~Master Yoda
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." ~~Lord Vader