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The end of Star Wars?

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This is something i have been facing for a while now but i only now just realised how imminent it is. I have noticed that since 2005 or so, my interest in Star Wars has been steadily declining, at least as is reflected on the internet. At my peak, circa 2001 or so, I was excited about the prequels, Star Wars was everywhere, i was thinking and writing about the films--both OT and PT--every day and even had briefly took a drink from the EU pool (how bitter it tasted). But ever since the end of 2005--when ROTS came on video and the series truely over--i have noticed a gradual distancing. I used to not mind the prequels but slowly i became more and more bitter about them until i realised in the last year that i really don't like them. PT fanboys began to annoy me to no end, and not only that, they swelled massively in number. At TFN, my Star Wars home since 1998, where i still post with my registered name that has been there since 1999 and racked up 2000 posts or so, things went to hell, and the OT section was overrun by Lucas defenders who slowly drove out all the old-time fans--venturing into the PT forum is like venturing into the Kurtz compound at the end of Apocalypse Now, all soprts of weird ghostly natives standing around and heads on stakes and you know that you are in a place that you should fear. When the GOUT thing hit, it polarised the community to a large degree, and in fact for me it was here that i realised all of my passion and love for Star Wars surrounded the OT. Since then i have slowly drifted from TFN to this place and in the last two months or so i have seldom even posted there. For that matter, here half the time we are discussing technical video matters and such, and the other half we are talking about what went wrong with the PT and how much better the OOT is. In a sense, this place has become, at least for a great many posters such as myself and CO for example, a sort of forum for Star Wars fans suffering from post-traumatic-prequel-stress, trying to analyse and understand how such a series turned to crap and what the hell happened to make such an event happen. But there is very little discussion about the actual films themselves, not even the OOT. And to me this is significant.
This whole thing was made obvious to me because today i checked TFN out of curiosity and there was a private message from someone wondering in bewilderment why such an halfway-intelligent person like me stays with TFN and why didn't i come over to the Outter Rim Seiges boards? My first thought was "sigh...why bother?" Even at TFN, where the content of the films is discussed 99% of the times, i have not much more to say. Most of my posts there have simply degraded to defending the OOT where necessary and reminding new fans of the original context of the films. I guess the reason i stick around is to not let the place be totally run by PT-fanboys and warp new fans.

But really, i have nothing more to say about the films. Since 1998 i have discussed every aspect of both the PT and OT, i have talked about every subject and interpretation at least ten times over, and that previous sense of discovery, of hearing a new viewpoint or aspect that i hadn't considered, has long since evaporated. And i know i'm not the only one feeling this way. The period of 1998-2005 was explosive for fandom because it was the era when people first started getting on the internet and discussing things and being exposed to new and shared ideas and it was simultaneously the era of new Star Wars films. But now both of those eras are gone. Theres very little to learn about the OOT--i am always amazed at learning a piece of info i hadn't heard before but these are slim pickin's--and about the PT for that matter.

In short, what i am saying is is this the end of the massive outpour of Star Wars fandom? Will we be headed to that same downtime that existed after the OT was done, that big 1985-1989 dry spell? Obviously there will be EU--but i hate the EU. And i think most fans do as well. The only thing left is the TV series, which i admit i am curious about, but i still dread it will just be a Star Trek/ Firefly clone of some kind, with all the stupid developments of the PT intact. I think its a very telling sign of the fundamental differences between us two groups that most PT fans are EU fans as well, or at least are accepting of EU, while most OT fans hate the EU, or at least don't care much for it. PT fans have six films, a whole bunch of TV series now, a shitload of books and comics and god knows what else--I have three films, only two of which i truely love, the other which i tolerate as the conclusion to those films. I know i will always be involved in Star Wars fandom in some minor way, and come back to posting things from time to time, but i have a feeling that for me, and i think for many others, we will be heading back to that quiet, just-enjoy-the-OT fandom that we had around the early 90's.
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I was never truly obsessed with the details of Star Wars. When it came to some of the glaring questions, I would simply have fun thinking about it all myself and get answers from the films only. I saw no need to discuss anything endlessly or consult bad EU. The films were my canon and I needed nothing else (beyond some basics).

But, I can still totally understand your point of view, Zombie. I agree that Star Wars is getting old again. What makes everything sad this time is how it will have the venom of the PT and the SEs to help twist everything good from the series into meaninglessness. (And the TV series will be frightening if the PT was any indication. Hello new revisions. Hello new contradictions. Hello cheese. Hello boring repetition.)

I intend to divorce myself from it all and return to where I was before 1997 and focus only on the first three movies again. The only reason I'm even chatting at a Star Wars site was because of the supposed OOT release on DVD (which I didn't even purchase due to its substandard qualities). If we can get an actually good release then I might come back for awhile. Otherwise, I’m guessing that George doesn’t want my interest or money.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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zombie, let me first express how much I sympathize regarding TFN. My handle over there is lawnmowerman603 and if you check my profile you'll notice I've racked up more than half as many posts in my first 4 months here as I did at TFN in the last 4 years!

In regards to the EU, I read pretty much all of the prequel era novels and with the exception of Shadows and Heir to the Empire I haven't read any other Star Wars novels before or since. Lately I've only been bothered to read the comics, with Dark Times and Legacy being the only ones I really care about. I haven't gotten around to reading the ROTS novelization or Dark Lord. One big thing I have noticed though, and I'll admit this is debatable, is that the EU authors even now seem to be more on our side. I can't tell you how thrilled I was to hear that Clone Wars material covered in the Thrawn Trilogy-books from way back in '91-was being directly addressed in the new Clone Wars EU.

"The Saga, George's Vision, etc." I don't think the EU authors really care about or even acknowledge that. To them, they're still back in '77 or whenever they first saw any of the movies and Star Wars still means to them now whatever it meant to them right after they first saw it. This is assuming of course that their first time seeing it was at least prior to '97 but I think that's a safe assumption to make. The only real problem, regardless of how cool they write and draw things, is that now they can't just pretend like the events of the actual prequels never happenned. It's this simple fact that gives rise to what a couple of my older friends were doing in their rewriting of the prequels, episode by episode. One of them is 28, his parents took him to see Empire when he was barely 1 and a half years old. The other one is in his late 30's, saw all three movies during their originals runs, and he told me stories about seeing ROTJ on the big screen and the whole audience throwing their hands up and cheering during the Millennium Falcon "Fighters, Coming In" POV shot because it actually felt like you were in the Millennium Falcon. Suffice it to say I'm jealous of them both. Anyway, my 28 year old friend told me about when he first saw TPM with some of his friends back in '99 and how incredibly dissapointed they all were. One big thing he pointed to was Darth Maul using a doublebladed lightsaber and how much that takes away from the signifigance of Exar Kun. He saw AOTC during some free time one day during the summer of '02 and actually uttered a verbal explitive, outraging some nearby theater patrons, upon seeing the Death Star plans show up towards the end. I didn't meet him until fall of '04 and all throughout spring of '05 he was calling me a "Warsy" despite my claim that such a term doesn't exist/doesn't even sound clever. He saw ROTS about a week or so after I did and his first comments to me were "Oh my God, Oh my God, it actually felt like Star Wars!" Several months later he'd refer to that comment as a false alarm and say he'd had more fun watching "The Aviator."

So, I think if I do go back to reading Star Wars novels I'll stick to stuff written before the prequels were made.

I know I keep coming back to the subject of why things went the way they did with the PT, but let me just say a few more things. While GL's desire to get back into the "director's chair" (if that's what he prefers to call it) was probably the big reason for not hiring directors, there's also a theory I have. The film industry and indeed the original fans of the OT have pretty much looked at it as the beginning, middle, and end of the story. I mean, even with the '04 dvds, they still had to give the box that "classic" design and call it "Star Wars Trilogy" despite the IV, V and VI along the other side. GL probably wouldn't have had much luck recruiting good directors because they themselves probably cared more about directing their own stuff and their own "vision" than they did about the possibility of getting to work on a Star Wars movie. The thought that there would be more of them, even if they were aware of the IV, V and VI numbering, probably just didn't cross their minds much. Sorry, I just don't buy GL's desire to get back in the director's chair as being the only reason for things going the way they did. I'm just theorizing of course, but I think it's good food for thought.

What was inevitable, I think, was GL at least being the one to write the PT's story. It's what he did on the OT and I don't see how it would'v been different for the PT. What could've gone differently was the screenplay and the direction, those really could've helped the prequels immensely, but the past is the past.

If it weren't for the SE, the prequels would be just prequels like they should be. But because Lucas now has to make the entire thing his own, we get "the saga." Even Star Trek, a franchise many here are comparing to the current state of Star Wars, never went any further than making the special effects better. Yes, we might still be just as pissed as we are now even if Lucas hadn't gone so far as to change the actual story of the OT, but I think this difference is crucial. You still have plenty of shots in the SE that are not visual effects shots. You have next to none in the PT. GL is really just a producer and an editor, he's not a director like he once was.

I wonder what will happen when GL's kids-or whomever-take over LFL. I feel almost snobbish saying that the people who watch the PT and the SE, of which there are quite a lot judging from how often I see the silver boxset lying around at people's places, aren't the real fans. It's not their fault, since GL pulled the worst double dip in history and like I just said, most people had already bought the silver box thinking the original versions were never getting released, as per GL's very words (and don't play that whole "well, he actually said it doesn't exist to him" game with me. It's mere semantics and you know it). And then I know people who are a little older who bought the '06 release out of love for the OOT. At least they have 4:3 television so it doesn't really matter, even though the picture quality is still total crap.

Here I go again, bringing it all back to the OOT. I still hold out just a little hope that GL/LFL will get off their asses and do something about all this, realize that the OOT isn't just some "historical document" that people would only want to watch out of nostalgia.
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I really tried back in the 90s, but the nature of the novels and comics just seems...wrong. Doesn't Jedi imply a reasonably happy ending for these people? And I'm not really interested in reading about jedis and sith and people with apostrophes in their name. I'm curious to know what the sales are like these days.
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Zombie, I guess I will throw in my 2 cents about life after ROTJ, and my usual long posts if anyone can get through them.

I don't think it is a bad thing that your fandom for SW is dying down, cause that is different then not loving the movies anymore. The biggest problem for all of us here, or many of us here is that the whole SW thing has gotten out of control for just utter enjoyment. Do I watch the OOT which I love to death in shit quality? Do I watch the SE in great quality even though I get annoyed at 95% of the changes? Do I watch the PT to try to get the full arc of the saga now even though it didn't turn out as good as it could? Will Lucas ever put out a great quality OOT release, or will I be either stuck watching OOT bootlegs, OOT 2006 shit DVD's, or Great Quality SE for the rest of my life? These are all questions that enter my mind now when I watch a SW movie, and sadly even the ones I love.

This is a watershed year for an OOT fan, cause to me it is all or nothing for a while. There will be a Saga Boxset, it is all but confirmed on the SW 2007 Calendar last year, and after the specs are announced, many here will retire from SW talk for a long time, either happy or pissed off at George til HD-DVD rumors start. If the Saga boxset does contain the OOT remastered and everyone is happy with it, then SW talk will stop. If the Saga boxset does not include the OOT and just a new SE & PT movies, then there will be some serious bitchin up to and after the set is released, and then I think many like myself will wave the white flag. I honestly come here everyday in hopes that there is some announcement of the OOT that we have waited for, and that leads me into some SW talk.

As for SW fandom dying down Zombie, it aint a bad thing cause great movies stand the test of time, and I remember being in 8th grade in 1987, a full 4 years after ROTJ, and we would all joke at who could do the best Chewbaccas howl. SW never died, or the OT never died, it just wasn't public domain everyday and that is solely cause there are no more movies, and there is nothing really new to talk about. The TV show will have its niche audience, and I guarantee 90% of the people who watch it read the EU books, and I say that fine with me, cause I know Lucas won't fuck with the OT movies to fit the TV series. Or will he?

For a long time I wondered whether the PT would taint the OT for future generations, and we have all talked about here, but I am starting to think that the only one who got tainted was ol Georgie. People will still love the OT movies, because they are so different looking, different characters, and such a different story, it is too obvious not to notice they are seperate trilogies. Sure there will be the niche saga fans who populate TFN, but I also have a friend who loved Fast & the Furious, and I have another friend who loves Waterworld, so there is always people out there with bad taste!

A friend of mine of who is a big SW fan kinda summed up the PT to me, "Either you accept the story or not, and if you don't, it will never work. Dont' keep trying it 4-6,1-3 or 1-6, or even 3-6, either it works for you or it doesn't. ROTJ has always been inferior to SW/ESB, but everyone accepted the story, and they became OT fans, so you never had to try to love ROTJ, you just accepted the story, even though it wasn't exactly what it could have been." He also said, "I think every SW fan in some ways likes the PT movies even a tiny bit, cause of how it ties to the OT, and that expands the OT story when it was done right. But there are so many bad moments that clutter it, you almost have a love/hate relationship with the movies whereas you know there is a good movie in there, yet it just was executed to what it should have been."

For me, when the saga boxset is announced this year, and if the OOT is remastered and I can enjoy those 3 movies again, I will make a decision whether I accept the PT story or not. I think many of us are so pissed at the treatment of the OOT, that we won't accept the PT as just a backstory, nothing more nothing less, cause I think it can work if I can see Sebastian Shaw again.
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What happened to the Star Wars name is what happens so very often in life: Potential becomes reality and so very much is lost in the process. Lucas and company had a huge slab of stone to work with and made two masterpieces with it. But George chipped away a little too much over time.

Lucas, in recent years, has always been very quick to remind everyone that this is space opera, an homage to 1940's sci-fi serials, fun for kids, etc. That is clearly NOT what Star Wars was before 1983 - at that time, Lucas used elements of 1940's serials and created something more significant. Those movies happened to be fun for kids - these distinctions should be recognized. Star Wars and Empire had outgrown its creator and (most of its) cast. It would have been nearly impossible to meet the standard of excellence of the first two films, and Lucas evidently decided to make it clear that he wasn't trying to do such a thing. The silly moments in Jedi (the burping, Salacious Crumb, Ewok antics a.o.) seem to validate that idea. After all, Jedi without the silliness is simply a substandard Star Wars movie. With the silliness, Lucas may argue that Jedi was what a SW movie was supposed to be all along. The SE-izing of Star Wars seems to validate this idea futher still: Mos Eisley antics, the Rastafarian Alien at the cantina (what a cool hat!), Solo stepping on Jabba's tail (would the real Jabba tolerate that for one second??), Boba Fett's mugging, Greedo missing a blaster shot from point blank range. Star Wars is the poorer for these tiny tweaks and additions.

Does this have anything to do with the topic at hand? Absolutely. Lucas, by meddling with the tone of the entire Star Wars franchise, and the content of the Original Trilogy, is chiefly responsible for the demise of his product, and the much-maligned EU is proof positive of that. Star Wars fandom received a significant boost from new EU - specifically the Thrawn trilogy and Shadows of the Empire. We all recognize that EU often leaves much to be desired, but as Fang Zei pointed out, EU creators did what George Lucas should have done: make the new material fit the old. Don't bastardize what's already been established. The EU of the 1990's wouldn't have had the same legs if the authors had tried to rewrite history.

But because Lucas chose to go down this road, there's no easy way to have a discussion about the material. You have to identify which camp you're in and by the time you've spent energy and time defending your stance, you don't really feel like discussing the content very much. I assume that most posters here at ot.com have more or less the same interpretations I do on what's happening in the films. I'm content to drop in every few days here among the marginalized rather than waste all sorts of time in caps lock screaming at StormTrooper 1776 and Darth Toe Jam. That shit just ain't worth it.

BTW, Zombie, huge props to you for your utter pwnage of the GOUT thread at TF.N - it was awesome seeing you crush those hanging curveballs over the fence day after day. Not that you got through to any of them, but it was enjoyable all the same.

Want to book yourself or a guest on THE VFP Show? PM me!

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Zombie, I totally understand what you are talking about. I would have invited you to the new Basher's sanctuary, but I never figured you to be a basher, anyway. i remember the whole debate on TFN about the release of the '06 DVDs. It was like talking to brick walls, except brick walls are not as dense. I haven't posted on those boards since the release of those DVDs.

It's not so bad that fandom is dying down. The decline of fandom doesn't lessen the impact or the goodness of the OT. I've grown tired of knowing everything there is to know about the nuances of Star Wars that is not contained in the movies. I don't need to know the manufacturer of the engines for the X-Wing for me to enjoy the movie and have never really enjoyed any Star Wars novel that was not a movie adaptation.

I guess that makes me a fundamentalist fan.
There's good in the Original Trilogy, and it's worth fighting for.
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
http://www.myspace.com/harlock415
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Hello! I used to post at TFN years ago, after the release of TPM. However, other things in my life came up, and I drifted away from the boards. I recently went to check the boards again, and everyone that I liked were gone. Binary Sunset was my favorite poster, and people with his same mentality have left, to be replaced by twelve year old idiots. I found this website, saw that zombie posted here, and enjoyed the passion from expressed by the members fond memories of the O OT, the only Star Wars
that has any artistic merit. So I have happily joined the forums.

I grew up with the original trilogy. My first actual memory is watching TESB in 1980. I have been hooked on Star Wars ever since.
While I do enjoy the PT, I recognize the flaws of these films, and in no way do the match the genius that is the OT, at least the first two films. I bought the 2006 release to have the originals, and in spite of the poor transfer, I am happy to own the movies that created my love of Star Wars in the first place.

I am not worried over the fate of these movies. Most of my friends are not SW nuts like I am, and they prefer the real versions
over any of the new crap. History will remember the originals. My god, Star Wars 77 is a masterpiece beloved by even the
most literate of film critics. Everyone I know has seen and liked this movie. There is no way the bastard children that are the SE will replace these classic American films.

As for Lucas himself, I do not like him tampering with films of his past. However, as a fellow artist, I understand why he created the PT the way he did. It was over a decade from his last Star Wars film. He changed as an artist.While he is no longer a genius like he was in the 70's ( I truthfully believe he once was) he still made films that meant something to him at this point in his life. He changed his ideas to suit were he is in his life, not because he is a liar, he has just grown in different ways. He no longer is the Hollywood rebel. Instead, he is the ruler of his own created Empire. Instead of Luke, I feel that Lucas know has more in common with Vader. Hence Star Wars has now, in Lucas' own mind, become Vader's story. I just do not agree with him changing the original movies to support his current beliefs.

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You seem like a good poster, UncleOwen. I’m sure you’re very welcome here.


Originally posted by: Fang Zei
He saw ROTS about a week or so after I did and his first comments to me were "Oh my God, Oh my God, it actually felt like Star Wars!" Several months later he'd refer to that comment as a false alarm and say he'd had more fun watching "The Aviator."

I know exactly what your friend went through. The first time I saw RotS, I thought that it was great and thought that it might have saved the PT. I desperately wanted to have the PT to be good and to have a decent Star Wars “saga.” But, upon reflection, when the newness wore off, its flaws began standing out to me. Then, when I heard that those damn 2004 DVDs were all that we were going to ever have of the original films (which are the true films), I decided to reject the whole damn thing. To me Star Wars is bigger than George Lucas’ revisionism.


Originally posted by: vote_for_palpatine
What happened to the Star Wars name is what happens so very often in life: Potential becomes reality and so very much is lost in the process. Lucas and company had a huge slab of stone to work with and made two masterpieces with it. But George chipped away a little too much over time.


Heh, a good friend of mine compared the SEs and the PT to George over mixing chocolate/vanilla swirl ice cream until the swirl is gone. Though I don’t believe that George Lucas simply diminished the saga, the worst part was how he added crap that totally conflicted with what had come before. Stuff that nobody was asking for or could have ever wanted.


Originally posted by: vote_for_palpatine
But because Lucas chose to go down this road, there's no easy way to have a discussion about the material. You have to identify which camp you're in and by the time you've spent energy and time defending your stance, you don't really feel like discussing the content very much.


Uhg, I know what you’re talking about there. My friends and I once loved to quote and talk about Star Wars endlessly. Now we avoid the topic because it simply reminds us of everything George Lucas has done.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Zombie,

I think I understand how you feel. I've had my ups and downs with Star Wars. The prequels are a dim comparision to the original trilogy. I could go on, but I'm sure it's nothing new to anyone here.

However, I think you may be letting your cynicism get the better of you. I don't think this is the end of Star Wars (especially the Original Trilogy). In other threads, I've seen you post things to the effect that there is nothing new to discover in Star Wars, such as your out-of hand dismissal of "Luke's missed Death Star chasm throw" as well as your dismissal of the remote possibility that an advance copy of ESB was screened in some theatres.

This may sound naive, but I am amazed by the new things I'm continually finding out about the Original Trilogy. Like a month ago Trooperman dug up some old music by Korngold (sp?) that was an obvious inspiration for the Star Wars theme by John Williams. And I haven't seen Jambe's Returning to Jedi yet, but I'm sure there's some stuff in there I've never heard or seen before (FYI, I am 34 years old, and have been a Star Wars fan since I was 5).

I hope you don't give up.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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Which Korngold score was this? I know that Holtz's Planets inspired some Star Wars and of course there's Rozsa's Ben Hur for bits of Ep 1
There's good in the Original Trilogy, and it's worth fighting for.
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
http://www.myspace.com/harlock415