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The difference between fanatic Muslims and Christians...

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There's this politician (Wilders) here in the Netherlands and he's making an anti/critical Quran movie. No one has seen this movie, no one has any idea of the content of this movie. No one even knows for sure it exists. Still, there's an uproar in the Muslim world, protest, Dutch flag burnings. I have to admit, it's kind of weird seeing your flag being burned by people who apparently are against you for some reason. Ofcourse Americans are used to this phenomenon but it's very new for me. Anyway I think the reactions from the Muslim world are bizarre (just like the Muhammed cartoon riots).
The Netherlands have soldiers in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban and when one dutchman is critical towards Islam the Afghan population suddenly is against everything that's Dutch. I really begin to understand how Americans must feel.

Greetings from Kabul:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3018/anp7243680cs9.jpg

Now, there are also a lot of dutch people who made critical movies, funny movies, etc, about the Bible/Christianity. Here's an example of a movie:
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/56151/b2e3883d/zalig_pasen_.html
Now, the funny thing is, I don't see any flag burnings or an uproar anywhere, not even a flag burning in Vatican city. Strange...

This is all known ofcourse but I just thought I should mention it here, this stuff is all new to me.

Also, a nice picture that shows the difference between Hamas and the Israeli defense force:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2852/7dc523f5hamasvsidfyu5.jpg
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I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I'm going to warn you about the kind of posts this topic is going to get by quoting Jar Jar Binks: "Don't 'spect a warm welcome."
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You can expect a warm welcome on this forum at least, because it's true. If someone believes that most Muslims around the world are tolerant, prove it.

I don't have anything against the people who want to be Muslims in peace, but when you have people protesting any criticism and demanding the deaths of people over cartoons, I fail to see how it's unfair to make this particular generalization.

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What else do people expect from Kabul?

I would be careful about making generalised comments about Muslim's though. Those people do not represent all Muslims, just some of those living in Kabul, which is one of the most extremist regions on the planet. Your average Muslim elsewhere in the world, while probably ruffled at the sight of seeing his or her religion criticised (as most religious folk are), does not burn flags or stage aggressive protests. Even though this sort of thing is a pretty typical middle-eastern reaction, its not typical of "Muslims" in general. And its not like Christians have a history of tolerance.
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Unfortunately, I'm glad you can see where we are coming from. Good post.
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zombie84 said:

And its not like Christians have a history of tolerance.


Yes, but then again, our major organizations have also managed to move past the totalitarian hate-monger phase. In fact, I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant right now, because we pretty much sit here and tolerate everything. Sure, we make a little noise now and then, but we hardly force our views on people. Actually, it mostly seems like secularists and the politically correct try to force their views on us.
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Johnboy3434 said:

zombie84 said:

And its not like Christians have a history of tolerance.


Yes, but then again, our major organizations have also managed to move past the totalitarian hate-monger phase. In fact, I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant right now, because we pretty much sit here and tolerate everything. Sure, we make a little noise now and then, but we hardly force our views on people. Actually, it mostly seems like secularists and the politically correct try to force their views on us.


I know, but in the context of "the difference between Muslims and Christians" thats not exactly true, especially with Christian extremists who protest gay marriage, hold book burnings, lynch homosexuals and bomb abortion clinics. I'm just saying its not exactly fair to make such a sweeping statement, especially when we are talking about less extreme things such as reacting to a film. I mean it was only a couple years ago when certain Christians were holding mass burnings of Harry Potter books and issuing death threat to JK Rowling. Not quite the same as condeming a whole country, I suppose. But its still unfair use one group of protestors in a militantly extreme region as a representative of a group of people that comprise over a billion individuals around the world. I don't see a billion people burning dutch flag--only some people in one of the most violent areas in the world.
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10% of a billion is 100 million people. That's the number I've heard from some Muslims living in the states for the number of people that are extremists. "It's only about 10% of Muslims that are like this". Again, 10% of a billion is 100 million.

I don't know if that numbers accurate or not, but if it is, that's a lot of people with a lot of hate over something like a cartoon or something that's critical of their religious book. I don't hear a lot of Christians getting angry over flushed Bibles. Probably because our Bible is not our faith or religion. Sure, it's a document of it, but a flushed Bible can be replaced with another one.

I don't see this thread ending happily either. I've seen that picture of Hamas vs Israel before, but it was a Hamas soldier kneeling down behind a baby carriage with the Israel kneeling down in front of the baby carriage.
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lordjedi said:

10% of a billion is 100 million people. That's the number I've heard from some Muslims living in the states for the number of people that are extremists. "It's only about 10% of Muslims that are like this". Again, 10% of a billion is 100 million.

I don't know if that numbers accurate or not, but if it is, that's a lot of people with a lot of hate over something like a cartoon or something that's critical of their religious book.


Indeed it is. I have no idea how accurate that figure is either, but that sounds like a good guestimate just based on observations.

But again, comparing the middle-eastern world to the western world is one thing, comparing Islam to Christianity is ignorant. What is the percentage of extremist American Christians? The ones that attend gay marriage protests, burn Harry Potter books and want to kill doctors? Maybe 1%? That means there is roughly 1.6 million of these people in the USA. Saying "the difference between Muslims and Christians" is just stupid. Each has their bands of radical douchebags that are a serious danger to the world. And as far as Kabul is concerned, thats pretty much par for the course, so many of those people are so extreme, in a country where infidels are regularly stoned to death, previously by state law, this really shouldn't be news
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Arnie.d said:

Ofcourse Americans are used to this phenomenon but it's very new for me.

Yeah well man, get used to it. Complete lack of education + violent religious upbringing = crazy fun.

The protest you described doesn't really matter - it's just a flag. A piece of fabric. You can find a mob daily burning our flag. It doesn't bother me, if that particular group of nuts doesn't like us... who gives a fuck. I only wish the shit they do would be limited to only burning our flag, rather than actually bringing the violent hatred into countries they deem evil. If only they limited it to burning flags...

When some of their more seasoned wackos start flying planes into your most prominent skyscrapers, killing thousands in one fell swoop, then the issue will really start to suck.

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zombie84 said:


comparing Islam to Christianity is ignorant. What is the percentage of extremist American Christians? The ones that attend gay marriage protests, burn Harry Potter books and want to kill doctors? Maybe 1%? That means there is roughly 1.6 million of these people in the USA. Saying "the difference between Muslims and Christians" is just stupid.


So, both sides of a particular religious difference can be found to have crazily violent people within their ranks and, as a result, we are therefore unable to make any reasoned judgments regarding which side might be more likely to produce crazily violent people in a logically generalized sense?

Both a barbaric society and a civilized society will produce murderers within their ranks to some extent. However, it is foolish to pretend that we cannot make a general distinction about which is more likely to do that. Even more important, it is extremely foolish to overlook teachings, perspectives, and ethics that influence mankind toward destructive behaviors. To casually throw out all analysis of human value systems for the sake of being "fair" is ridiculous to me.

I generally know who I see creating relatively-unprovoked, large-scale conflicts around the world. I generally know who I see murdering Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and other types of people around the world while only offering the most laughable and shameful excuses in justification. Other, generalized groups of people have similar problems but do not have them of the same size, do not tolerate them as much, and do not have as many beliefs that breed them. This was the only point I saw Arnie.d making and I think it is incredibly unfair to call him ignorant for that.

Oh, and 1% is way, way too high.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Tiptup said:


. Other, generalized groups of people have similar problems but do not have them of the same size, do not tolerate them as much, and do not have as many beliefs that breed them.


I agree.

Tiptup said:

This was the only point I saw Arnie.d making and I think it is incredibly unfair to call him ignorant for that.


No, the thread was begun with the premise that the behavior of this incident is exclusive to Muslims. Which it is not. Moreover, it is only one isolated pocket of radicals in the most militant and radical region on the planet, thus it is terribly inaccuate to attach this to a group of a billion people spread over the entire world. Its ignorant to put Christianity on a pedestal like that.
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I admit the thread title is too black&white. I know the situation is much more nuanced. But there isn't very much "title space". Maybe I shouldn't have used "Muslims and Christians" but maybe "Western world" and "Islamic countries".

I'm not trying to put Christianity on a pedestal. I'm very aware of history. But right now I'm only concerned with the present and the future.

Fact is generally speaking Islamic countries are very intolerant of other/western cultures. I hate those left suckers (I think on this forum they are known as lefties) bitching we aren't as tolerant as we used to be. Hell, Muslims live in peace in the west and they can freely practice their religion here, wear their religious clothes, build their houses of religion in our society.
You aren't even allowed to own a Bible in Saudi arabia (let alone build a church). The law requires citizens to be Muslim.

Yes, there are some Christian fanatics that aren't to fond of gays but I don't see them hanging them from the bridge publicly like they do in Iran.

In the largest Muslim country, Indonesia ( yes, the former Dutch colony), violence against Christians steadily increases.

In Egypt Christian are regarded second class people and are actively persecuted by Islamic militants.

I'm an atheist (well, some days I'm agnostic) so what do I care about all this? It goes against everything I believe to be right. And to most Muslims I'm just as much an infidel as any Christian.

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." - Thomas Mann
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zombie84 said:


No, the thread was begun with the premise that the behavior of this incident is exclusive to Muslims.


Well, that could be an interpretation of the initial post, but it actually doesn't go so far as to say that and I had a different way of understanding it. As I tried to point out in my last post, there is a sense in which the singled-out behavior is "exclusive" to Muslims. It is not exclusive to Muslims in the sense of the event in its most basic form. It is exclusive, however, in the sense of a number of other dimensions. I would argue that these dimensions can lead us to conclude that the general body of Islam (at least in certain parts of the world) has a bigger problem with these sorts of events than other religions and ideologies.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Tiptup said:

zombie84 said:


No, the thread was begun with the premise that the behavior of this incident is exclusive to Muslims.


Well, that could be an interpretation of the initial post, but it actually doesn't go so far as to say that and I had a different way of understanding it. As I tried to point out in my last post, there is a sense in which the singled-out behavior is "exclusive" to Muslims. It is not exclusive to Muslims in the sense of the event in its most basic form. It is exclusive, however, in the sense of a number of other dimensions. I would argue that these dimensions can lead us to conclude that the general body of Islam (at least in certain parts of the world) has a bigger problem with these sorts of events than other religions and ideologies.

That is exactly what I was trying to say.
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There is nothing wrong with comparing Islam to Christianity. They are both religions, of course people are going to compare them. Arnie made a very good observation, that many people manage not to make.

Here is the catch, though many people will roll their eyes at it, the obvious is often the most over looked and the most ignored. Especially with an issue like the Middle-East, people want to ponder to therorize, and talk about social issues and types of government, the obvious answer is simply to obvious and simple to be taken into account and it tosses the whole idea of tolerance on its behind, which is a big no no. "Islam is a religion of peace!" how many time have you heard that one? It is very common retoric today. You simply don't diss other countries religions, Christianity is Europes religion, so it is fair game, but to diss any other religion is simply a blatant display of intolerance. That does not really bother me in this day and age of political correctness, but the problem with this way of thinking is that people decide it really is a religion of peace.

This is a hard one for me, I have quite a few friends who are Muslim, and I have long ago decided it would be prudent to avoid discussing religion with them, though it comes up from time to time. Most of my Muslim friends never read their Qur'an, the one friend I have who does read his Qur'an sometimes makes me nearly pee my pants on account of some of the comments he makes. He says them half jokingly, but he still manages to scare the shit out of me sometimes.

I have studied the Bible extensively, and I have studied the Qu'ran a little, I admit I have not studied the Qu'ran as much as I should, and I intend to get back into it more sooner or later.

Okay, back to the obvious answer I mentioned in the first paragraph. The religion of Christianity is based on the New Testament of the Bible, the religion of Islam is based on the Qur'an. If we want to understand the difference between the two religions, let's look at their texts.

No matter what someone believes, you will find nuts and extremists, bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, as well as in the name of science and evolution. You have people who do bad things for all sorts of reasons. Science does not teach us to do these things, neither does Christianity*. The problem with the Qur'an is that it does support this kind of behavior. It does promote hate. It is not a religion of peace or tolerance, you would be very hard pressed to make even a poor attempt at an argument saying that it is. Their behavior is not a product of their culture, so much as that their culture is a product of their religion. This is not a very popular take on the situation, so I would not be surprised if I get some pretty harsh backlash on this one, but I would encourage anyone who disagrees with me to either send off for a free Qur'an or pick one up at the local library and do some reading. It will be an extremely enlightening experience.



*the Bible never even mentions abortion, let alone calls Christians to kill abortionist, it never says to hate homosexuals, only that homosexuality is a sin, the Bible teaches us to love everyone. It condemns liars, theives and prostitutes as heavily as it does gays, yet those are the kind of people Jesus chose to hang around. If you read through the new testament you'll find that it is all about tolerance. When "Christians" behave intolerantly they are not even obeying their own religious text.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Right.

Except this thread isn't about suicide bombers, Jihadists and the like. It was about a few nuts in Kabul burning a flag in response to some Dutch film. Which A) is not a trait Christianity is innocent of, but more importantly B) is not representative of the reaction of the Muslim community at large, only some nuts in the worst place on Earth. Thats whats bad about making this comparison. The "difference between Muslims and Christians" was framed in terms of the context of this specific incident.
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zombie84 said:

Right.

Except this thread isn't about suicide bombers, Jihadists and the like. It was about a few nuts in Kabul burning a flag in response to some Dutch film.


Quick review question: what was the Dutch film about and why did these nuts in one of the worse places on earth feel the necessity to burn a flag because of it?

It all goes into the same bucket as suicide bombers, Jihadists and the like.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

zombie84 said:

Right.

Except this thread isn't about suicide bombers, Jihadists and the like. It was about a few nuts in Kabul burning a flag in response to some Dutch film.


Quick review question: what was the Dutch film about and why did these nuts in one of the worse places on earth feel the necessity to burn a flag because of it?

That's the fun part. No one has seen the film, or knows it's content. We just know it's called Fitna. And it's supposed to by critical of the Quran. And it's about 10-15 minutes long I think.
Nobody dares to broadcast it. Then it was supposed to be put on the internet but the (American) server it was going to be on removed the site. So how and when we can see it is not known.

Also a lot of governments from Islamitic countries urged the Dutch government to ban the movie or else... Dutch diplomats abroad constantly have to give explanations. It's crazy.
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Do they know about the BitTorrent circuit? Or eMule? There may not be any money in it, but if you're trying to make a statement, free distribution is better than none. Besides, if it's such a hot topic in the film community, it'll end up there, anyway.
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C3PX said:

*the Bible never even mentions abortion, let alone calls Christians to kill abortionist, it never says to hate homosexuals, only that homosexuality is a sin, the Bible teaches us to love everyone. It condemns liars, theives and prostitutes as heavily as it does gays, yet those are the kind of people Jesus chose to hang around. If you read through the new testament you'll find that it is all about tolerance. When "Christians" behave intolerantly they are not even obeying their own religious text.


Not quite. Jesus wasn't being tolerant, he was converting people by the thousands. That is why he and his message weren't put down so easily. Before him, there were other guys claiming to be the Messiah, but people weren't converting nearly as quickly. It wasn't so much about tolerance as it was speaking to them nicely and showing them the error of their ways and then demonstrating that he was the Son of God. Jesus, while not directly telling people they were sinners like the Pharisees did, was telling people that they had sinned, but then was telling them they were forgiven as long as they repented and accepted him as the saviour. Many thousands of people accepted him. So many accepted him on a daily basis that the Pharisees had no power to stop it.

There was only one place where Christ did not perform as many miracles as he could have. That was in his home town. This is in the Bible (I don't have the verse handy). He left his home town because no matter how many miracles he performed, they would not believe he was the Messiah.

All of the people you mention were converted by Jesus' mere presence. He didn't simply "hang out" with them and accept them the way they were as society would have us do today. He spoke to them and used parables to convince them that their way of life was wrong. They then converted, accepted him as the Messiah, and stopped living the way they had been.
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lj, I know all of that. You completely missed my point. I was simply saying that instead of judging them and talking about how they are going to burn in hell, he defended them from those kinds of people. No, he did not just accept them as they are and tell them not to change, he encouraged change, but he encouraged change through love, not condemnation and hate. Condemnation and hate are one of the things Christians are bashed about the most these days, my point was that when Christians engage in condemnation and hate they are not being very Christ like and should not be seen as a reflection of what a Christian ought to be.

While people acting under the banner of Christianity have done more than their fair share of horrible things, it is not because the Bible told them to do it.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Finally! We can see what all the fuzz is about:

[url=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103]

Although you probably have to wait a bit before the video loads:
"Welcome, and thank you for visiting LiveLeak.com. Due to an increase in traffic and targetted hacking attacks, we have had to disable certain features. We hope you enjoy all that we have available at this time and we further hope that you will visit us again to explore the full range of features and interactivity that LiveLeak has to offer. If this is your first visit to LiveLeak.com we apologise for the fact your first impression of the site will be limited, check back in with us soon and you can join one of the most unique media sharing sites on the net offering everything from uncensored news through to entertainment. Thank you for your patience."
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Matthew 13:57-58 (58 is the important part).

57 "And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his native place and in his own house." 58 And he did not work many mighty deeds there because of their lack of faith.

I got your point C3PX. My point is that sometimes, no matter what you say or do, you're not going to convince people of things. That's just a fact. Jesus knew this. He didn't simply tolerate people who weren't willing to accept him no matter what he said or showed them. He simply left. Maybe modern Christians should do that more often, but it's a very difficult thing to do, especially when Christ commands us all to preach the good news. You can't give the good news without giving the bad.

Jesus didn't hang out with prostitutes, thieves, and murderers. Jesus converted them and then they were no longer prostitutes, thieves, and murderers.

Arnie.d said:

Finally! We can see what all the fuzz is about:

[url=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103]

Although you probably have to wait a bit before the video loads:
"Welcome, and thank you for visiting LiveLeak.com. Due to an increase in traffic and targetted hacking attacks, we have had to disable certain features. We hope you enjoy all that we have available at this time and we further hope that you will visit us again to explore the full range of features and interactivity that LiveLeak has to offer. If this is your first visit to LiveLeak.com we apologise for the fact your first impression of the site will be limited, check back in with us soon and you can join one of the most unique media sharing sites on the net offering everything from uncensored news through to entertainment. Thank you for your patience."


Everyone needs to try to capture it. It's out of the bag now. I'm doing my part as I type this.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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And... it's removed from LiveLeak.

"Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers.
This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. We would like to thank the thousands of people, from all backgrounds and religions, who gave us their support. They realised LiveLeak.com is a vehicle for many opinions and not just for the support of one.
Perhaps there is still hope that this situation may produce a discussion that could benefit and educate all of us as to how we can accept one anothers culture.
We stood for what we believe in, the ability to be heard, but in the end the price was too high."
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