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.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) — Page 8

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Originally posted by: zion
Originally posted by: Arnie.d
This is confusing.

Alright, to clear up the confusion, here's the story. Laserman originally got a capture from nin, but it wasn't used except in the early 'pre X0 Project' pics that were on Laserman's website.

The master we are working from now is not from nin's player due to some problems in the original capture. (No fault of nin's, though Laserman never went into exactly what the problems were.)

The footage we are currently using is from a Japanese X0 capture from a person who wishes to remain unknown -- both to protect themselves from lawyers and to protect themselves from being inundated with requests to transfer people's discs for them. The process of doing 3 movies in CAV was enough to make her never want to capture anything ever again. So yeah, don't ask. She is not to be confused with our mysterious 3rd member however.

As stated before, the X0 capture footage we currently have is all in all better than the SC footage. I think the buzz around here lately for the SC discs is a little misleading in that people automatically think that a full SC capture is the only way to go. And this is simply not true. We will put up some examples in the next week or so that will show you the difference with what we are currently working on, and our experiments with the SC. Some of you may be pleasantly suprised.



The reason why my capture was not as good as the second are, from what I understand this:
When we did my capturing, we used the PDI delux card and s-video out from the X0. But the second time they used a modified PDI card that had a BNC connection (much better than RCA/DIN) and used composite from the X0. Now, the HLD-X0 is a great machine, but it's 10 year old design. So the comb filter in it are not the berst one can get. So the fact that they used another combfilter and BNC composite put are probebly the reason why the second capture was better.

Now, Zion, do I understand correctly that the Japanese SC capture are NOT from an HLD-X0? And in some scenes BETTER than a X0 capture? If so, I could do another capture from composite and to a BNC modified PDI card from the SC edition and see if it will look even better (lower noise, more detail?). Let me know.

/Mattias
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Originally posted by: nin
Now, Zion, do I understand correctly that the Japanese SC capture are NOT from an HLD-X0? And in some scenes BETTER than a X0 capture? If so, I could do another capture from composite and to a BNC modified PDI card from the SC edition and see if it will look even better (lower noise, more detail?). Let me know.


As I understand it, nin, the SC caps didn't necessarily look better than an XØ cap, just better (in some scenes) than DefCol & Faces caps done with the same LD player (not an XØ). This test suggests they'll be worth integrating, but the only way to really know is by comparing an XØ cap of the SC directly with the existing DefCol cap. Which is where your generous offer may well come in...
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Action scenes from the SC caps look better because they don't have as much smearing as the THX-mastered versions. Laserman explained the process used (as well as the mistakes made during) to me, but I don't recall where that post was. I'll try to find it.

[EDIT] Found it!

"They did a temporal noise reduction pass, so it compared frames before and after to try and identify dirt and other crap - in scenes with not a lot of contrast differential it struggled, and copied parts of previous and future frames into the current frame - unfortunately it was also iterative, so the frame got processed and the processed frame was then used for the next frame compare - resulting in those gorram trails."


The SC's weren't mastered by THX, so while there is more "noise", there are fewer added video artifacts as well. As such, with the computer resources and software at our disposal, it would make more sense to do noise removal on the SCs (i.e. TooT), rather than risk more complicated artifact removal on the THX LDs.

As I said before, the X0 Project knows far too much about these LDs. But this is an excellent example of why the project is taking so long, and expected to take even longer - there are a lot of technical decisions to be considered and made before actual video correction can be started in earnest.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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I'll have to read up more on the rolling bar issue. I've heard of it, but I haven't been able to see it myself yet. Were all pressings of the DC set susceptible or just the first? Is it something that develops with age or is it inherent in the LD's when they are made? Can it be overcome without losing quality? Is there anyway to tell what pressing you have? I know mine is not the first pressing because I am not missing the Leia welding footage in ESB. Sorry for the barrage of questions.

Patrick

"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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Originally posted by: Patrick R.
I'll have to read up more on the rolling bar issue. I've heard of it, but I haven't been able to see it myself yet. Were all pressings of the DC set susceptible or just the first? Is it something that develops with age or is it inherent in the LD's when they are made? Can it be overcome without losing quality? Is there anyway to tell what pressing you have? I know mine is not the first pressing because I am not missing the Leia welding footage in ESB. Sorry for the barrage of questions.

Patrick


As far as I can tell, it only appears to be the first pressings that are missing the Leia welding footage. My set is a first pressing and during the opening space scenes in A New Hope it can cleary be seen. It was supposed to have been fixed in subsequent pressings. It is not there on my Faces sets. However, I'm finding the Faces set to be inferior in many ways to the definitive set. I'd love to see a non first pressing without the rolling bars to see how much better it may look.

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What is the rolling bar issue?

That's no moon. It's a LaserDisc.

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Originally posted by: Grinder
What is the rolling bar issue?


Check out this link. The following is from the webpage regarding the rolling bar:

"3. Scrolling, horizontal waves throughout the entire box set's picture. These waves scroll upwards and can be most easily seen in those areas where the picture is gray or dark. (They are very hard to see in bright scenes.) SPECULATION as to the waves' source points to AC's 60 cycles/second versus television's 59.97 cycles/second. This difference in frequency coupled with AC interference during the mastering stage, could be the source of the scrolling lines. Fox and Image Entertainment were both notified concerning this. Refusing to admit to a pressing error, they blamed incorrect tele- vision brightness settings as the problem. NOTE: The brightness settings do very little to mask these annoying waves.)"

Flaws List
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Originally posted by: gltaylor74


"Fox and Image Entertainment were both notified concerning this. Refusing to admit to a pressing error, they blamed incorrect tele- vision brightness settings as the problem."


No, it was a deliberate creative decision!

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Given that the DC was THX's first official laserdisc title, (they had a couple other movies under their belts that were released without the label) and there were so many screwups, and then the DVD's surpass those screwups a decade later, I have to wonder if the OT is cursed somehow.
originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Or maybe the THX certification process is cheapened and overhyped. I just wasn't that impressed with the official dvd's ever. The only advantage over the cowclops v2 was far less compression and slightly more resolution. Still, I thought they had a lot of noise and grain on them, were the films just in that bad of shape or is 20th Century Fox not as good at compressing their dvd's as other studios are. Back to the Future from Universal looks so much better and they put the extras with the movie discs, not on a separate one.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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It certainly didn't help when they started slapping THX on VHS movies.
originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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THX is a hoax anyway. You guys ever see the first DVD release of the Highlander? It was THX certified and is probably still considered one of the worst looking DVD transfers ever.
And wait, isn't that travisty of a disc for True Lies THX certified? If the edges were enhanced anymore they'd cut through the picture tube.

Dr. M

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"If the edges were enhanced anymore they'd cut through the picture tube."

LOL. I hate EE as well.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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If the edges were enhanced anymore they'd cut through the picture tube.

It's ridiculous. If anyone actually prefers EE they can phony the picture up with the sharpness or VM on their tv. For the sake of the rest of us the integrity of the edges should be left alone.

HARMY RULES

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Unfortunately, the DVD producers, like the TV manufacturers, know that people aren't going to adjust their sets, appropriately or otherwise, for the "best" possible picture. This is why new televisions are set with brightness so high as to cut the average tube life in half (and also to make the sets stand out in a showroom.)

It's also why NTSC is called "Never Twice the Same Color"....or variations thereof.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Zion.. have you checked out the Japanese SC's yet (in particular ANH)? I have the Definitive Collection and just purchased another Definitive Collection that is still sealed. I now have an option of picking up the SC's for a decent price, but I'm not sure if I need these or not. I've read pro's and con's comparing these to the Definitives. If you were to do a direct rip of ANH (no filters, or other processing), which version would overall have a better picture... the DEF Collection or the SC? How about ESB and ROTJ? I'm thinking of just picking up the ANH SC, but if it's worth getting, I'll pick up all three.

--RickWJ324
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I'd say go ahead and get'em. I have the Faces and Def. Col., but would love a set of the SC's as well.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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There is an awful lot of hype surrounding the Japanese SC. I can confirm that the SC is overall not nearly as good a viewing experience as the DC. There are a few (and here I stress a few) scenes that might have more raw detail, but the noise that is encoded right into the disc makes watching it in motion not the best experience. Getting from "raw detail" to "improved viewing experience" is non-trivial.

This SC vs. DC stuff is a little bit like comparing... well, I don't know. All I know is, even with my relatively-decent Pioneer CLD-D925, there is no way I would base an LD-to-DVD project on the SC alone. Or even the SC first and foremost. It is, at best, something to be used very sparingly, in highly-specific cases. Sorta like using spackle to repair holes in drywall, maybe. You wouldn't want to make the whole wall out of spackle, would you?

This discussion does belong in the X0 Project thread, though, because in my opinion this "use the SC to fix the DC" is something best left to the X0 Project to pursue. I figure I know my way around capturing and AviSynth, etc. -- hey, I invented TooT, after all -- but even I'm not getting too excited by the SC as some sort of cure-all.

For the outrageous money required to get a copy of the SC, I totally wouldn't bother. I think it'd be better to send even half that off to the X0 Project, and trust that Zion et al know what they're doing. From what I've seen so far, that trust is not misplaced!
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Thanks for the info! I guess I'll end up passing on the SC's and invest that money in something else. --RickWJ324
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Originally posted by: Karyudo
There is an awful lot of hype surrounding the Japanese SC. I can confirm that the SC is overall not nearly as good a viewing experience as the DC. There are a few (and here I stress a few) scenes that might have more raw detail, but the noise that is encoded right into the disc makes watching it in motion not the best experience. Getting from "raw detail" to "improved viewing experience" is non-trivial.

This SC vs. DC stuff is a little bit like comparing... well, I don't know. All I know is, even with my relatively-decent Pioneer CLD-D925, there is no way I would base an LD-to-DVD project on the SC alone. Or even the SC first and foremost. It is, at best, something to be used very sparingly, in highly-specific cases. Sorta like using spackle to repair holes in drywall, maybe. You wouldn't want to make the whole wall out of spackle, would you?



Well, this maybe true, but maybe not. Why? Well, because of the players. I have had 4 different CLD-925, two DVL-909, one CLD-315, CLD-501, CLD-503, LD-S9, two HLD-X9 and two HLD-X0 and one thing that are the biggest difference between these player is the way they handle noise. And this is not always the same. I give an example:
One LD can have a really noisey picture on the CLD-925. Let say, 7/10 in noise. The same LD on the HLD-X0 will have less noise, maybe 3/10.
Another LD can have an even nosier picture, say 8/10 on the CLD-925. But when we use that on the HLD-X0, we would think it could be 4/10, but it's only 6/10.

So there is a difference between players AND what LD. The only thing that will be the same is that the HLD-X0 will give a better image. Sometimes much better and sometime a LOT better.

The X0 project is the only really project that will give us the original movies in the best shape ever. I think we should try our most to see if we can dig out even a little more detail and picture quality if we can. Maybe the japanese SC is not as good as the DC, but then we know that, but only if we have tried it. I don't know if they are framed the same, then one could use some scenes that looks better in the SC in the final X0 DVD. I can nothing about restoring the image, but I think in most cases a more detailed but a little more nosey picture is better than a softer but less nosey picture, to work from.

I have just sent me PDI delux card for upgrading to high-grade BNC connection. Then I could try a lot of new capture with different machines (the HLD-X9, but I don't see whatt could be better with it) and settings.

These guys have spent a LOT of time and money on this project and I would hope that they don't rush anything. Better to do it right the first time than going back (that will probebly never happen).

/Mattias
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Karyudo and nin are right on. The Japanese SC discs are not superior to the THX versions, yet they will be immensely useful for a lot of shots where we can clean up the noise inherent from the discs themselves and provide us with the best hybrid LD transfer possible.

Once we get prestine X0 caps of the SCs, I think we'll have to do some sort of split-screen TC print, lol.


Site update: with the holidays in full swing, don't expect a lot of new articles in the next few weeks. I'm working hard on a slew of new features for the site, however, that will allow for things like user comments to articles, a wiki-type section for analyzing the LDs frame-by-frame, and maybe even an XØ blog. Stay tuned.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]