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.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) — Page 19

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And with that, OCP, how about you do everyone a favor and keep your LID project to your own two threads?

Thanks.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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I have to agree with the others. What has happened, OCPMovie? Why have you been on everyone for the last few days?
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I for one am glad about Lucas' decision to release the Originals, but I do have a few concerns.

1.) What master are they going to use? I read somewhere that Ward said that the films won't look as good as the 2004 versions because of the master they are using.
2.) What kind of cleanup will there be? I believe the 2004 DVD's have great resolution from what I have seen of them, but they did not do a frame by frame restoration. I would have more faith if they would do that type of restoration instead of just plugging in an algorithm and letting it go.
3.) How will the colors look? The 2004 DVD's have way too much blue push for me.
4.) How will the sound be? We know they are only going DD2.0. Will it be screwed up like the 2004 DVD's? I mean, will the sound quality flucuate because they took from different sources like the 2004 release? Will the audio be reversed again?
5.) What dialogue will they use? I release there were different lines of dialogue between the 35mm and 70mm prints. I don't know which is which, but I prefer, "You're lucky you don't taste very good." over "You were lucky to get out of there." and "It's alright trust me!" over "It's alright I can see a lot better.".

I don't care so much about the effects flubs like the matte lines and saber issues. It would be nice to have the matte lines removed, but I have lived with them so long that it does not bother me.

I'm just glad to see the X0 Project continue. I will continue to support it, but I am abandoning my own project as it would take a lot of money for me to do it right. I may still capture those scenes with the dialogue that I like in case the 2006 DVD's have the other lines.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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Excuse me for interrupting the LD/LID war but I just wanted to reply to casualimp.

I didn't intend to scare people with my post, just explaining what IMHO is the reasoning behind the OOT dvd release. Lucas has to reaffirm his ownership of the original version of Star Wars that he disowned when he said "it doesn't really exist." It's simply a business decision.

I'm not a lawyer but I do have some knowledge of copywrite law. All fan edits are in violation of copywrite. Even if you own the original source. Technically you could be sued for doing it. Realistically, who's going to bother suing one guy for tinkering? There really isn't any damages or loss of income incurred. And the cost of the lawyers would be far more than any puny judgement you could get against a fan editor. Not to mention the cost of bad publicity from suing your own fans.

If you distribute your fan edit though, that's a whole nother ball o wax.

It's unlikely that LFL will try and shut down this forum. They've already learned from past experience it's not wise to upset fans - especially on the internet where the fans can tell the whole world about it. If it were me running this forum, I would remove the Star Wars torrents thread (to avoid any niteshdw type incident) and have a disclaimer that the site is not official or authorized by LucasFilm. As far as the XO project goes, as long as it's promoted as a scholarly attempt at restoring and preserving a Laserdisc copy of Star Wars for posterity, and is not distributed to the public, you're probably not going to be sued.

Ned
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Originally posted by: fatned
I'm not a lawyer but I do have some knowledge of copywrite law.


One thing a real lawyer would know, for example, is that it's "copyright," not "copywrite." As in, the right to make copies. Not pickin' on you, specifically, fatned; I don't know how many times I've seen this mistake. Personally, I don't know how such a mistake could get started and repeated.

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What has gotten into Ocp? He seems to be acting really meanspirited lately. Maybe someone should point out all the time he spent "wasting" by painting out the SE elements for his classic editions. And by the way, the image of Greedo looks better from the X0 pic as does Shaw. You can tell the eyebrows were painted back in. The whole point of this project was to squeeze the best quality of the laserdiscs. Lines of resolution is only one part of the overall quality of video. The dvds may have that advantage but there's also brightness, contrast, color accuracy and compression artifacts to worry about. The one thing that makes my TR47 set easiest to tell it apart from the official dvds is the digital compression and double black bars on 4:3 tv's. The fact that there are less lines of resolution isn't that obvious.
I think it would be cool to see how the X0 transfer compares with the dvds. Maybe you guys could post more of your screen caps just as friendly advice to Lucasfilm of how it should look, because their current dvd version is not a good reference. I'd love to see some before and after comparisons, even of screens that don't look that drastic of an enhancement, to show what attention to detail can bring. And let's not forget that these articles really help others with their own color correction and captures. I know they have with my own video projects.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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"What has gotten into Ocp?"

From what I've gathered, it's what's known as "being funny". Go figure.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Ok, I know I'll be incurring some wrath here, but I'm going to go to bat for OCP. First let me say I have the utmost respect for the work that's been done on the X0 project, it's amazing and ambitious.

The comparison screenshots:

The laserdisc shots posted are approx. 712x275.
Most laserdisc captures have 4 vertical lines of black on the left and right (hence about 712 not 720).
It's also important to note laserdiscs are analog and have no true width. 720 is just a convention since it's what DVDs commonly use.
LD signals contain an analog strength of up to 5mhz. This translates to only about as much data as 528-544 pixels in width. That's one reason why LD to DVD conversions look softer and are easily compressed on to single layer DVDs.

Horizontally there are only about 270 lines of movie data on a laserdisc (after cropping the borders). This is an estimate since laserdiscs technically only have about 400-425 lines NOT 480. That is true lines of resolution, the difference is extrapolated in software (further softening the picture).

So the X0 shots are the real captures as they are (as post on the X0 site anyway), preserving all picture information in the capture, yet of slightly higher resolution than the source laserdisc.

The DVD captures on the other hand are anamorphic and have a TRUE height of 360 horizontal lines (cropping the black borders). If OCP were to post 720x360 it would be distorted. If he were to match the height of a laserdisc shot he'd be throwing out picture data that really exists. So you would resize the width to produce equivalent aspect ratioed screenshots. This is no more artificial at 849 pixels than the laserdiscs using 720 (which again has no more than about 544 pixels worth of information).

As for the odd half sized screenies, they are only there for comparison: the full frames aren't available since OCP is obviously using what little is posted on the X0 site.

-----

Frankly if I were running the X0 project I'd go dark until September, saving time and money.

If the '06 DVD are really and truly completely borked then start up again, anything else is just plain crazy.

Dr. M

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How many times do I have to repeat myself?! Nobody is claiming that the X0 Project will have better resolution than the DVD. This project was started to do the best trasfer to DVD from the laserdisc. Just because an official DVD version is being released, we're not going to give up and throw everything away. This isn't a contest to see who's transfer or what version is better. This is about finishing what we set out to do over a year ago.

I have little doubt that the new DVDs will need a lot of work to look anything like the X0 Project LD transfer.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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I still think OCP is being a mean-spirited jerk.

I don't think anybody in his right mind would argue that a straight transfer from a 10+ year-old laserdisc is going to beat the picture quality of a DVD. So on that point, OCP is probably right in saying LD is dead. Assuming, of course, that LFL is planning to do a decent job of downsampling their 10+ year-old digital master tape.

However, what I feel characterizes the X0 Project best is not its laserdisc source, but the level of quality being brought to whatever best source is available. I don't think that sort of attitude is obsolete; I don't imagine the information the Project has been able to dig up is wasted; I don't feel those involved have been "owned" by LFL through this announcement.

What I expect will be true of the X0 Project is that continuing to work with the LD source for the time being (there's nothing as true to the original film at the moment, despite its overall lack of resolution) will be excellent background information for when the new discs arrive in September. The X0 Project has long alluded to the fact it's got good stuff at its disposal beyond just an excellent LD cap. I know they're working with TooT, for example. I'm convinced I recall posts made here referring to HD (as in "upsampling to"). I believe the site at some point mentioned comparing colours to actual film frames. All of these things, and the Project is still dealing with LD? There must be a reason, beyond a blind allegiance to a dead format.

I have every confidence whatever happens behind the scenes at X0 headquarters is about as state-of-the-art as enthusiasts can get. I suspect I'm not alone in that confidence. About the only posts I've seen not expressing some similar level of confidence are those made by OCP, whose posts are increasingly coming across as very sour grapes. Not very becoming of someone who's done good things for the fan edit scene, and I wish he'd stop.


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Keep this pissing contest in your own thread.

Z
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What about audio? Clearly the 2.0 PCM from Laserdisc outshines the 2.0 Dolby from DVD. I can't figure why Lucas isn't using the PCM track. The room on a DL DVD certainly exists.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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"Thank you for your profanity and insults."

All of which you have brought upon yourself.

"Your continued attachment to dead formats is unfortunately what this part of Star Wars fandom is all about."

Deal. For someone who has told us to do the same, it is quite obvious that it is YOU who is having a tremendous amount of difficulty dealing with this reality. Why are you so bothered whether or not the X0 Project continues? Will LFL stop sending you checks if your little crusade fails?

"Jesus christ, people, 2+4 equals four. The sky is blue. The alphabet goes XYZ.
XYZ project."


Clever. By the way, you need to check your math.

"DVD has better quality than laserdisc."

Overall, yes. That being said, we still don't know what the final quality of the '06 DVDs will be.

"There is no such thing as an anamorphic laserdisc."

Wrong again.

"Is it really so damaging to say this that I have to be told "shut the fuck up" and kicked out of this thread?
I suppose so. And you should be questioning why."


Everyone knows why, and they are all telling you. It's not what you are saying, but how you are saying it. You are being a major prick about something that really doesn't involve you, much less hurt you (does it?) For some reason, you think you are doing everyone a favor, but you are just pissing everyone off. You are more than welcome to allude to some sort of conspiracy, but the fact remains that you are simply rubbing everyone the wrong way for no good discernible reason other than your own personal preferences. It's like you have suddenly taking this project as a personal insult, but the truth of the matter is, we (and I think it's safe to say I speak for most of the people here) could care less how offended you are by this project. DanielB behaved exactly like this, and we got rid of him.

This project will continue, despite your perceptions (and misperceptions) about laserdisc. If you can't handle that, I don't know what to tell you, but having your little tantrums in this thread isn't going to rid you of your demons.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
Jesus christ, people, 2+4 equals four.


I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for pointing it out. If the X0 Project says 2+4 = 6, I'll know better, because laserdisc is dead and you've said so.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
There is no such thing as an anamorphic laserdisc.


You are wrong. Not only are there anamorphic laserdiscs, there are high definition laserdiscs. (No, not of the Star Wars trilogy, but that's not what you were saying.)

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You will never win when you get into a fight with a mod.

Thanks for playing.
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Guys- we're all flapping our gums for nothing until we find out more about this release. If they screwed up the color/contrast, then there's obviously a problem. But if it's just a straight transfer of the trilogy, obviously it'll beat an LD cap.

That having been said, I support the XO project all the way; what harm can it be? The more versions, the better. At least the revised opening crawl from 1981 will be preserved; that isn't supposed to be on the official release.

Anyhow, our problem here is that we want immediate answers when the real answer comes in September. Nothing is certain until then. I'm a little disappointed that the release we've all been waiting for is bringing some of us into the juvenile poster category. I'm thrilled that this is being released, with original colors, impact flashes, sabers, correctly-mixed music, and so on. To me, it's the ultimate correction of the 2004 DVD's. In that way, I'm actually REALLY glad that they're not putting any effort into restoring it to the quality of the 2004 DVD's, with Lowry Digital. Because we all know how that turned out.

I'm really looking forward to putting a PCM track on this DVD when it comes out, though. I really can't wait.

-TM

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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I was just messin around--I like your work on Empire and Jedi--and Classic Edition was good too, you got a little drunk or something is all and I decided to be an asshole too.

I just finished the SATs and was gonna come back with like: Isomix is to video noise as Classic Edition is to pixelated. Then I was gonna replace my "cup of shut the fuck up" picture with a still of the blue milk from the cantina to make it Star Wars themed.

I guess we all just hope that the XO will be done before September so we have something to watch before we get our DVDs and all our wildest dreams come true and they give us like all our wildest dream options and wildest dream quality and suddenly reveal SuperPCM audio--a technology developed by Dave Bowman after he became the Star Child in 2001 and disappeard for five years.

Well anyway that's why I'm still supporting it--plus I wanted to maybe coax these guys in helping me with a project that would require a good laserdisc transfer--the movie I had in mind though is gonna get an HD from Warner Bros in September too.

Spaced Out - A Stoner Odyssey (five minute sneak peek)

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Hey, mods:

Does ocp's post of his own screenshots belong in the X0 Project thread? I imagine this off-topic posting should be moved to a more appropriate place, like the hasn't-had-a-post-in-a-month Star Wars Classic Edition thread.
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Poor OCB. Now I see the problem. He's desperate for attention and kudos for his release.

Sad, really. No one likes an attention whore. I was hoping the days of DanielB and AWK were over, and now one of our own has turned to the Dark Side.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Poor OCB. Now I see the problem. He's desperate for attention and kudos for his release.

Sad, really. No one likes an attention whore. I was hoping the days of DanielB and AWK were over, and now one of our own has turned to the Dark Side.


I know it is a shame that we have a new troll here. But AWK is here as Andy_K_250 or something like that.
Anyways on a good note, I have so much respect for you guys and what and undertaking you are doing *tips my hat off you to guys*. And I can't wait to have the whole XO trilogy on my shelf one day .
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I fail to understand how the continuation of the X0 project in light of the upcoming September release could in any way be harmful or misguided.

There have been so many versions of Star Wars over the years that it is quite impossible to say which is the 'ultimate definitive original' version. Three sound mixes in '77. "A New Hope" in '81. New sound mixes in '85 and '93. The special edition in '97. The official DVD's in '04. Numerous fan restorations/preservations combining different elements of sound and picture in ways their creators see fit . . .

What's the problem with wanting to get the best possible copy of the laserdisc releases when clearly the upcoming '06 DVD will not be exactly the same to them in every aspect? They are a part of Star Wars history.

Good as the Classic Editions are--and kudos to Garrett for making them--they are not exact reproductions of the original film but hybrids, assembled to his taste in what the best elements to use would be. That is quite a different beast than the X0, and given their differing natures, there is no reason whatsoever the two concepts cannot co-exist side by side, or separately for those who prefer only one or the other. The existence of one does not threaten the validity of the other. For my part I have the Classics and also eagerly look forward to the completion of the X0, and of course the upcoming release in September. None of them will be exactly the same, and since Star Wars has undergone so many variations, comparing them to each other has become a favourite pasttime of mine. I grew up with the films in VHS from the early '90s with the '85 stereo mix, which is the base to compare all others. What's wrong with having different approaches, I ask?

This is my first post, by the way. I've been lurking a few months but didn't really have much to say at first, since most people here know more than me about this stuff. (And I thought I was obsessed! lol)

Anyway, it's great news they're finally putting them out officially, even if it is only for a short time. A lot of anger and resentment (though not all) towards Lucas has been lifted away and I can be at peace.

So, OCP--thanks for the great work on the Classics! X0 guys--keep up the awesome job! I'm so glad there are people invested in these movies enough to want them preserved.

Dan, aka hairy_hen
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OCP - If you continue to turn this whole forum into your own battleground of pre-teen ranting and evangelical raving, you will no longer be welcome on this site.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But that doesn't mean this thread is going to turn into a debate on the validity of working with laserdisc footage as a base.

Quite frankly, WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE OUR PROJECT?! If you hate what we're doing so much then get out of this thread.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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I am still looking forward to the XO project's final release as ever. Maybe if the new DVDs are less than we'd hoped for, a cleanup of those would be needed too. And with your experienced hands, I'm sure I could cry upon seeing your cleanups vs. what we're given.
I believe in you guys!

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

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Originally posted by: Darth Richard
Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Poor OCB. Now I see the problem. He's desperate for attention and kudos for his release.

Sad, really. No one likes an attention whore. I was hoping the days of DanielB and AWK were over, and now one of our own has turned to the Dark Side.


I know it is a shame that we have a new troll here. But AWK is here as Andy_K_250 or something like that.
Anyways on a good note, I have so much respect for you guys and what and undertaking you are doing *tips my hat off you to guys*. And I can't wait to have the whole XO trilogy on my shelf one day .


Hey. I am assuming AWK was a flamer or something. I'm not AWK. I think if you search my posts, you'll see that I have never posted anything inflammatory and, aside from maybe being less schooled in a lot of the technical aspects of these projects, I've shown nothing but support for everyone here. If I did something to offend you, please let me know. If you were just grabbing a name that starts with A at random, that's cool, but please don't malign my reputation here (what little I have).
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1113/userbar381851ln2.gif
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8653/userbar381853dp6.gif
Super Mario Bros. - The Wicked Star Story
"Ah, the proverbial sad sack with a wasted wish."