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.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *) — Page 10

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Originally posted by: Darth Richard
so will the second version have re rotoscoped lightsabers???


No, it wont:

version 1 - raw transfer

version 2 - straight cleanup to remove cue dots, laserdisc sparklies, restore the starfields (remembering we aren't putting any stars back that are not on the laserdisc, just bringing them out), remove the garbage mattes, remove any "film problems" i.e. splices, scratches etc.

HARMY RULES

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Then the third version will have things like fixed lightsabers and effects (such as a shot of Greedo shooting first that actually looks good).
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Originally posted by: wadetv
Then the third version will have things like fixed lightsabers and effects (such as a shot of Greedo shooting first that actually looks good).


for some reason that doesn't sound right lol
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Originally posted by: wadetv
Then the third version will have things like fixed lightsabers and effects (such as a shot of Greedo shooting first that actually looks good).

Please tell me that your joking. Seriously...I need to know. For the love of Pete I hope that your joking.


HARMY RULES

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Damn, I am pleased to hear you guys are releasing a raw version. I had been under the impression the initial version would be the one with dirt removal, and that just went a tiny bit over the edge for me.

P.S. Who the hell is Pete, and why would I want to love him?!

That's no moon. It's a LaserDisc.

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Originally posted by: Grinder

P.S. Who the hell is Pete, and why would I want to love him?!


I think Laserman is Pete, and we all should love him.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: Grinder
Who the hell is Pete, and why would I want to love him?!

They don't call Rob "60 Watt Bob" for nothing.

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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When I heard the movies were going to be rereleased in the theatres, I was hoping they fixed everything that was a problem from either a production, or state of the art in 77 (that is removing all garbage mattes, matte lines, jump cuts, messed up saber shots, etc)... I wasn't expecting any extra computer graphics, but merely the exact original trilogy but just as though it were being made today. I read some people arguing about preservation or not. I don't care about physical preservation of all the flaws that were in the originals, but I do care about presveration via drama. That is, a cg dewback in the background on tatooine is ok because the animatronic they had didn't work in 77.... This isn't something that changes the pacing or drama in anyway (other than maybe drawing your eye to it if you're an fx nut)... So this x0 project is very interesting for that. Of course before you do any alterations having a pristine copy of your source material is a good idea. (And pristine is subjective here as we're talking about laserdiscs)...

just my 2c

Keep up the good work
Keith Weatherby II
Uhfgood -AT- verizon -DOT- net
Uhfgood's Blog:
http://uhfgood.artoo.net
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I have a question about the HLD-X0.
On the X0project homepage is says: "The XØ's composite output picks up the video stream before it is broken into chroma and luma."
Where is this coming from? I have always heard that too, but have not found any info about it (I don't have the service manual yet). And are it both the BNC output and RCA output that have this or are it only the BNC?

/Mattias
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Here is something Laserman wrote about a while back. Hope it helps.

Laserman wrote:
I actually first learned that the X0 did not have a recombined composite output when I looked at the X0 service manual whilst (bizarrely) at Nintendo in Japan all those years ago. I now wish I had stolen their copy (and their X0)
As for other evidence, it is probably mentioned in their marketing, we will have to take a look at the pioneer brochures, I remember Ivar posted this a while back too, and I know he had the service manual at one point.

Except the HLD-X9 and the HLD-X0, the composite signal is not Y/C separated and recombined in these two players. After the field buffer, the signal data path is divided into two, one is Y/C separated one is not. The HLD-X9 even has a 3D motion adaptive Y/C separation filter with three different selectable algorithms, for its Y/C data path.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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And here is something I found here:

Back to the interesting subject of composite re-composition, the HLD-X0
and HIL-C2EX specifically mention that one of their composite outputs
(the one with a BNC plug) is a "direct out" composite with a different
path than the other composite output (with a regular pin plug). The
manuals explain that nothing but TBC is applied to this "direct"
output. In particular, the Sony manual says that screen info will not
be shown through the direct output. I thought it meant the regular
composite output was a recombination, while the direct would not be. As
other decks do not mention this, i also thought it meant the other
decks only had "regular" (recombining) outputs. Can someone
explain/confirm in opposition to what these outputs are "direct", what
else than TBC is applied to the composite "normal" outputs, and if
outputs on some hi-end models (X9 etc...) could be "direct" even though
the manual doesn't mention it ? The X0 even had a flow-chart explaining
this feature, maybe someone could post a scan of it ?


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I just got the WookieeGroomer set and it really shows up how many changes were made for the 2004 DVDs. But it also shows how much more detail you can see in the image, which is not available from the LD. Now I am of the opinion that using the DVDs is a non-starter as far as preservation goes, as every frame has been altered by grotesque over-saturation, colour "correction" and contrast boosting (even where there aren't any new CGI elements) in a way that cannot be undone. However, aren't there huge swathes of the 1997 Special Edition wherein the picture is identical to the original release (all except the scenes with new CGI elements)? Would it be possible to use one of the DVB recordings like those used for the GKar or "TB" DVD sets for the majority of the picture, reverting to X0 LD caps for scenes which were altered in '97?
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Scratch that - I just remembered a couple of other things that were changed in '97:
all the wipes (a small point, but not insignificant, and anyway I liked the old ones better)
the snowspeeder matting on Hoth (this was arguably the only improvement in the SE, but obviously still wouldn't qualify as preservation).

The wipes would mean having to switch from DVB to LD just for one shot before and after the wipe, which I think would show up too much, or else using so much LD material that you may as well go the whole hog. Oh well, it was good for fifteen minutes.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but you pretty muched described OCPMovie's Classic Edition.

Dr. M

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As far as I know, ocpmovie was working from the 2004 DVDs and undoing most of the SE elements as best he could, which is more in the vein of creating an "ideal" version (like mverta or Darth Editous) than preservation as such.
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Originally posted by: Warp99
And here is something I found here:

Back to the interesting subject of composite re-composition, the HLD-X0
and HIL-C2EX specifically mention that one of their composite outputs
(the one with a BNC plug) is a "direct out" composite with a different
path than the other composite output (with a regular pin plug). The
manuals explain that nothing but TBC is applied to this "direct"
output. In particular, the Sony manual says that screen info will not
be shown through the direct output. I thought it meant the regular
composite output was a recombination, while the direct would not be. As
other decks do not mention this, i also thought it meant the other
decks only had "regular" (recombining) outputs. Can someone
explain/confirm in opposition to what these outputs are "direct", what
else than TBC is applied to the composite "normal" outputs, and if
outputs on some hi-end models (X9 etc...) could be "direct" even though
the manual doesn't mention it ? The X0 even had a flow-chart explaining
this feature, maybe someone could post a scan of it ?



Thanks. That is what I thought. Why? Well, on both the X9 and X0 RCA composite output, there will be showing the different comb settings and you can change them and that WILL effect the image. That would only be happeing if the composite output have been thru the Y/C.
I don't have any BNC to RCA cable home right now, only a BNC to BNC so I cannot test it right now. Hope to do so soon.

Btw, I have just received info that the PDI delux card have "only" a Adaptive 2/4-line comb filter for two dimensional chrominance/luminance separation. So we should maybe try to get another card with a 3D motion adaptive filter? Or are the current transfers done with the Black magic card that maybe have a 3D comb filter?
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I was thinking. I hope to soon play with the new Crystalio II video processor. This unit will have a REALLY high quality 3D/2D 5-line (5H) motion adaptive comb filter and BNC inputs. So maybe one can put the pure composite output to the Crystalio and put out 480i, without any scaling or improvments, with DVI to a capture card with DVI input? This maybe could give even better image?


/Mattias
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I can tell you that on the X9's video board, there is an adjustment that increases the level of "sharpness" by increasing the frequency response. There are two seperate dedicated adjustments, one for S-video output and one for composite output. If the X9's composite output just came from recombining the S-video output, then there would be no need to have a dedicated adjustment for composite. I think this indicates that there are two seperate signal paths on the X9, one S-video and one composite. It's always been accepted for a long time that the X9 did have a "pure" composite output and did not just recombine the S-video. I think folks like Kurtis Bahr and Ivar documented this. I will ask another gentleman I know and see if he has any thoughts on it.




Originally posted by: nin
Originally posted by: Warp99
And here is something I found here:

Back to the interesting subject of composite re-composition, the HLD-X0
and HIL-C2EX specifically mention that one of their composite outputs
(the one with a BNC plug) is a "direct out" composite with a different
path than the other composite output (with a regular pin plug). The
manuals explain that nothing but TBC is applied to this "direct"
output. In particular, the Sony manual says that screen info will not
be shown through the direct output. I thought it meant the regular
composite output was a recombination, while the direct would not be. As
other decks do not mention this, i also thought it meant the other
decks only had "regular" (recombining) outputs. Can someone
explain/confirm in opposition to what these outputs are "direct", what
else than TBC is applied to the composite "normal" outputs, and if
outputs on some hi-end models (X9 etc...) could be "direct" even though
the manual doesn't mention it ? The X0 even had a flow-chart explaining
this feature, maybe someone could post a scan of it ?



Thanks. That is what I thought. Why? Well, on both the X9 and X0 RCA composite output, there will be showing the different comb settings and you can change them and that WILL effect the image. That would only be happeing if the composite output have been thru the Y/C.
I don't have any BNC to RCA cable home right now, only a BNC to BNC so I cannot test it right now. Hope to do so soon.

Btw, I have just received info that the PDI delux card have "only" a Adaptive 2/4-line comb filter for two dimensional chrominance/luminance separation. So we should maybe try to get another card with a 3D motion adaptive filter? Or are the current transfers done with the Black magic card that maybe have a 3D comb filter?


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Originally posted by: gltaylor74
I can tell you that on the X9's video board, there is an adjustment that increases the level of "sharpness" by increasing the frequency response. There are two seperate dedicated adjustments, one for S-video output and one for composite output. If the X9's composite output just came from recombining the S-video output, then there would be no need to have a dedicated adjustment for composite. I think this indicates that there are two seperate signal paths on the X9, one S-video and one composite. It's always been accepted for a long time that the X9 did have a "pure" composite output and did not just recombine the S-video. I think folks like Kurtis Bahr and Ivar documented this. I will ask another gentleman I know and see if he has any thoughts on it.



Well, that say really nothing. It is two seperate outputs and of course they will have different adjustments.
But try what I said before. Take composite out from you HLD-X9 and change the comb filter. I have always wonder why I could change the comb filter and have an effect on the picture if the signal is a pure composite. And here we maybe have the answer. I will try to get a BNC to RCA cabel tomorrow and try the BNC output.
Can there really be any other answer than that the output is not recombining?

/Mattias
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Originally posted by: nin
Originally posted by: gltaylor74
I can tell you that on the X9's video board, there is an adjustment that increases the level of "sharpness" by increasing the frequency response. There are two seperate dedicated adjustments, one for S-video output and one for composite output. If the X9's composite output just came from recombining the S-video output, then there would be no need to have a dedicated adjustment for composite. I think this indicates that there are two seperate signal paths on the X9, one S-video and one composite. It's always been accepted for a long time that the X9 did have a "pure" composite output and did not just recombine the S-video. I think folks like Kurtis Bahr and Ivar documented this. I will ask another gentleman I know and see if he has any thoughts on it.



Well, that say really nothing. It is two seperate outputs and of course they will have different adjustments.
But try what I said before. Take composite out from you HLD-X9 and change the comb filter. I have always wonder why I could change the comb filter and have an effect on the picture if the signal is a pure composite. And here we maybe have the answer. I will try to get a BNC to RCA cabel tomorrow and try the BNC output.
Can there really be any other answer than that the output is not recombining?

/Mattias


I don't think it is recombing. If the composite output was a recombination of the S-video, why would they have dedicated composite adjustments on the video board? If the composite can from the S-video, the S-video adjustment that is also present would be all that was needed. A dedicated composite adjustment wouldnt' be needed because it would have already been done on the S-video signal path. I'll email a laserdisc tech I know. He is the best in the business in the US. It is not Kurtis Bahr, but Duncan Hunter. Duncan has worked on my X9 and is well versed in ld theory and about the adjustments on the X9's video board. I had my X9 hooked to my pioneer elite HDTV when I first got it for testing purposes since the Elite HDTV has the same comb filter. The X9's comb filter settings had no effect on the picture as far as I could see and I tried using the HR, Normal, and C-wide modes under the Standard setting. This was running composite direct to the HDTV. I'm now using my X9 with an Iscan HD+ using S-video. I'll have to try hooking up the composite again and see if I notice anything.

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Originally posted by: gltaylor74
I don't think it is recombing. If the composite output was a recombination of the S-video, why would they have dedicated composite adjustments on the video board? If the composite can from the S-video, the S-video adjustment that is also present would be all that was needed. A dedicated composite adjustment wouldnt' be needed because it would have already been done on the S-video signal path. I'll email a laserdisc tech I know. He is the best in the business in the US. It is not Kurtis Bahr, but Duncan Hunter. Duncan has worked on my X9 and is well versed in ld theory and about the adjustments on the X9's video board. I had my X9 hooked to my pioneer elite HDTV when I first got it for testing purposes since the Elite HDTV has the same comb filter. The X9's comb filter settings had no effect on the picture as far as I could see and I tried using the HR, Normal, and C-wide modes under the Standard setting. This was running composite direct to the HDTV. I'm now using my X9 with an Iscan HD+ using S-video. I'll have to try hooking up the composite again and see if I notice anything.



Well, I did just a test. I used memory 1 and put all settings on max and normal. And on memory 2 I put all settings on 0. Then I used the Die Harder LD and looked really close on my CRT TV and jumped between the two settings. There IS a change in picture. There is a lot more noise in memory 2, just like it should be with all the settings at 0. So there is something going on. Test it, you cannot miss it.

Here is what Ivar said; I agree, but that is exactly what Pioneer is doing in the CLD-79 and the
CLD-99. The digitized composite signal is first Y/C separated in by a 2D Y/C
separation ( I do not think it is adaptive, it is hard to find out from the
service manual ) filter in the video noise reduction section. The Y leg and
C leg is then processed and recombined to composite and then again Y/C
separated, in the CLD-99 by a 3D motion adaptive filter, just before the
D/As. This architecture is quite different from the CLD-97, HLD-X9 and
HLD-X0 where the "good" Y/C separation it done just after the field buffer
and no more Y/C separation or recombination is done. ( Except for the
composite output of the CLD-97 ). I clearly prefer latter way of doing it.

I don't know, but I find this text to say that the HLD-X9/X0 DO Y/C seperate directly after the field buffer but do not, like in the case of CLD-99, go back to composite, then to Y/C again before the 3D MA filter.

Tomorrow I will test both the reagular composite output from the X0 and the BNC output. Then we will have more info.
But like I said, there ARE changes when having different settings on the HLD-X9 composite output.


/Mattias
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Originally posted by: nin
I don't have any BNC to RCA cable home right now, only a BNC to BNC so I cannot test it right now. Hope to do so soon.

Btw, I have just received info that the PDI delux card have "only" a Adaptive 2/4-line comb filter for two dimensional chrominance/luminance separation.


Yes the philips saa7118 capture chip used on the PDI card 'only' has a 2 line 2D combfilter for NTSC (the 4 line mode is for PAL), but still I think the saa7118 is quite good at least regarding the bandwidth (details and sharpness).

It'll be interesting to hear what you find out when you connect the X0 BNC output to the PDI card.

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Isn't the word "adaptive" short for "motion adaptive" equivalent to "3D"?

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Originally posted by: Moth3r
Isn't the word "adaptive" short for "motion adaptive" equivalent to "3D"?


I don't believe so. From what I remember, Kurtis Bahr once stated on the AVS forum that a 3D comb filter is not always motion adaptive. He had said that the filter on the Elite CLD99 was 3D but not motion adaptive while it was a 3D motion adaptive on the LD-S9/X9 players.