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The Value of All Terrestrial Life

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This topic is completely genuine, no sarcasm intended at all.  I value all life.  Some life appears more valuable than others.  I do believe humans, from conception to death, to be most valuable and killing them to be most immoral.  But this thread is not intended to focus on humans, but rather other members of the animal kingdom, as well as even plants, fungi, prokaryotes, whatever you want to talk about.

I will first start by stating that I recently saw a lengthy ad on a webpage (can't even remember which) talking about why the viewer should choose to be vegan.  I didn't watch the whole thing, but I saw chicks being ground up, cattle's throats being slit and the blood drained from their bodies, etc.  It got me thinking.  I've seen flyers and such before, and I remember my first ballot when I turned 18, where I voted for larger cages for livestock (soon to be eaten, mind you) so they would be able to turn around.  I fairly recently saw a wonderful movie called Temple Grandin, and though the focus of the movie was on a woman overcoming her obstacles in autism, I love how she devoted her life to producing more humane means of treating cattle that would soon be slaughtered.

I eat meat, and I rather enjoy it.  It is the easiest way to get sufficient protein in one's diet.  But is our society so addicted to meat that we treat animals cruelly so we can get that Chik-Filet sammich?  Can we justify the killing of animals?  Our bodies are designed to eat them.  Can we find more humane ways to produce meat?  Can we learn as a society to rely on it less, while still retaining a meat filled diet for those who prefer it?  How?

I also enjoy mushrooms and onions as two of my favorite veggies, so you can see that I am making sure I consume life from other kingdoms as well, not just the animal kingdon. ;)

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I appreciate the length of this post will put some people off of reading it but if  others wish to dissect the material into individual points for scrutiny feel free.

As animals ourselves we are designed to be able to survive on many kinds of food (it was thought that this was because we were largely a scavenging creature until developing our hunting skills and eventually agriculture).

Pigs and chimps have a similar body structure so much so that's it's possible to transplant bits of pig into humans and vice versa and have those bits continue to function. My uncle had a pig valve in his heart for years.

As such the Western cultural obsession with eating mostly animals is certainly not healthy. And more akin to the diet of 17th Century nobility (many of which had the same health problems as modern Westerners).

Thanks to globalism this is spreading to other places of the world and changing the bodies of peoples not used to eating so much animal protein. The stereotype of people from the orient being short was largely accurate until very recently where the change of diet caused by adopting a more Western life style has lead to taller, fatter people who are more prone to heart disease.

If you investigate the physique of feral or hunter gather people alive today or people generally in the past you see most of the health risks we face barely existed. People tended to live shorter lives in the past but that was down to perils we have so far successfully controlled.

I mention all this because it goes to show one thing. That we are animals like any other. The only differences are cultural and that is largely down to becoming slightly more sophisticated at tool making and use than a crow, around the time of the beginning of the current ice-age.

By developing drawing which later turned into spoken and written language we became able to order thoughts and record them for generations.

Rather than acting on instinct we had another layer of complication over our lives, tradition. Traditionally the successful ate meat regularly because they had land and servants to produce a constant supply. The poor would use a cow to pull a plow, poo everywhere to fertilise the soil, to give milk and calves and would only eat it when it was close to death and had birthed a successor. They would sell the excess animals where they would either be eaten by the rich or enter into a similar arrangement with another poor family.

New World farming methods threw that order aside so now anyone could get access to cheap meat because land was plentiful and eventually technology would replace some of the other uses for a cow. But because the human animal has the cultural aspect it still equated meat with success and strength despite our ancient and stronger ancestors living on a largely cereal based diet.

The animals you see on a modern farm are created by human civilisation too and they bare little resemblance in physique and action to their 'natural' cousins.

The landscape of Europe is created by the human civilisation with miles and miles of natural forest felled to create pasture for edible sheep. Modern methods have removed the natural flowers that wild bees fed on and the trees they grew their colonies in. Most bees you see now are kept bees or solitary bees.

One can make a very good case for human civilisation being an evolving life form of it's own,  adapting, evolving placing some 'nodes' over others in value and possibly eventually removing the need for us and escaping to the stars.

For me the a speciesist approach to attributing value to life should be as out-moded as a racist approach.

In the past white Europeans sent hunters to find and decapitate non-white 'exotic' people for their comparative collections (like their collections of insects and birds eggs the hunting for which brought many species to extinction). The use of black Africans as slaves of course is written into the DNA of American culture as is the genocide and displacement of Native American peoples.

The excuse used for this was that they were not entirely people, they lacked the right customs and religion and they were superficially different. The Nazi's described Jews as 'vermin' and disposed of them using the techniques usually used in taking cattle to slaughter. They were branded, crammed into trucks, shaved, worked to death and processed into soap and lampshades etc.

We are rightfully horrified by this because these were people like us who's only crime was being seen as different enough to treat as objects to use or remove.

A dog can be seen as a beloved friend and yet it's near cousins foxes, wolves, dingos etc are hunted because they are an inconvenience. Some cultures turn their noses up in disgust at eating cats or horses while others see it as perfectly natural.

To me it makes more sense to not look at the outside of something but at the actions of something to build empathy.

I grow vegetables and were possible give them the space to self replenish so I harvest to make room for the plant to grow again the next year. I eat fungus and cereals with the expectation that the farmers who grow these things also replenish what has been reaped from the previous generation. I don't eat animals because I find it difficult to determine the point where one animal becomes significantly enough unlike (without falling back on the superficial criteria used by slave traders and the like) the animal side of me to not feel empathy.

I don't see any difference between cruel to a cat and being cruel to a spider. If I can remove either from danger I will attempt to do so.

It may be difficult to prove distress in a prawn but no more difficult that proving distress to an early term human fetus.

I am aware that my actions cause the deaths of hundreds of creatures though but there are things I have to do like walk and breath and actions I am culturally and domestically expected to do, like mow the lawn which will kill beetles and spiders and ants etc despite my attempts to avoid doing so.

In that awareness I attempt to find ways to minimise that damage by not bleaching the paving slabs, using weed killer, rodent killer, slug pellets or insecticide sprays.

Sometimes however the action of a life form endangers my well being beyond my ability to move it aside or live around it and action has to be taken. I recently took a course of antibiotics to cure a bladder infection for example and once had to clear the air vent of my house of an infestation of millions of small spiders that were eating the ceiling.

I felt bad for the spiders particularly as they were bought in by starlings on nesting material and we wouldn't have disturbed the birds if we could (it's currently illegal to do so anyway though I beloved Government is trying to change that for the benefit of their sponsors in the building industry).

I can't make anyone else act like myself and clearly I'm having a problem getting some people to understand myself but empathy is the element of consciousness that prevents people from selfishly grabbing whatever they want from life and if you can extend that to creatures with different body shapes extending it to members of your own species with different cultures, skin tones and ideas is much easier.

It will also help when your alien overlords finally reveal themselves.

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Nice post.  Believe it or not, I agree with you more than you realize.  Yesterday we had a moth in the house.  It was in my daughter's closet and I was worried it would start munching on her clothes, so I tried to catch it with a cup to let it go outside rather than killing it.  I'm certainly not as concerned as you, and as I pointed out, I do eat meat regularly, but I try to be kind to any animals that come my way, even insects.  Even those we eat should be treated kindly.

Here is an article on LDS teachings regarding kindness to animals.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/08/the-gospel-and-animals?lang=eng

Probably not interesting to most, but maybe someone would like it.

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I think I agree with most of your post, Bingowings. I do eat meat at almost every meal, but I am against animal cruelty and recognize that meat should be the smallest part of the meal, since it is less essential to our bodies than the other stuff (unless you count desert).

I am frequently called upon to kill insects that have invaded our house, and only very rarely do I kill them just because. I either feed them to our fish, since the bugs are good for them, or I release the creature outside where it can live and die naturally. Many people show a strange aversion to bumblebees, which are almost entirely harmless, and show no hesitation in stepping on them, but when those things get in the house I always capture them rather than kill them.

When I was younger, I always used to rescue bugs from the rain barrel. I remember one time (when I was five or six) I rescued a drowning horsefly in a bucket, which to my surprise, ungratefully bit me and made me cry. Rather than leaving it to die, I tipped the bucket over and let it go. Another time, I just about burst into tears because I killed a small fly without thinking. Though I don't cry when I step on ants anymore, I still feel slightly guilty if I do it intentionally.

Unless an animal is a pest, I never kill it. Even if it is a pest, I usually try to remove it rather than ending its life, so I fully understand your point of view, Bingowings.

It might seem inconsistent that I eat meat but rescue bugs, but I certainly wouldn't purchase or eat meat that was from a cruelly treated animal. It's natural for humans to eat meat, and many animals eat meat as well, so I have no problem with it.

As you know, I value human life at any stage of development far more than any animal, but that's partly because I recognize that the potential for a human embryo is greater than that of an adult Blue Whale. The Blue Whale will swim around in the ocean its whole life, not contributing anything to the world besides another Blue Whale or two (if that) while a human baby will grow up to become a member of a planetary society and could have a huge impact on the world (even a small impact would be better than the Blue Whale could manage).

I'm not an advocate of animal equality, and/or their equality with human beings, but I do support animal rights to some degree. Hunting shouldn't be for sport, animals should be kept in healthy, safe environments, they shouldn't be treated cruelly, and they shouldn't be slaughtered for no good reason.

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Jetrell Fo said:

We are omnivores are we not?

 We are Devo!

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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Ric2 your I showed your post to my old pal Bill who penned this poem...

Little Fly,

Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand
Has brushed away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength and breath
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die.

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RicOlie_2 said:

Many people show a strange aversion to bumblebees, which are almost entirely harmless, and show no hesitation in stepping on them, but when those things get in the house I always capture them rather than kill them.

I find bumblebees rather cute. Hell, I consider all bees cute.

Yellowjackets, on the other hand ... Let's just say they're my second least favourite insect. 

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Mud Wasps are my nemesis.  Sneaky bastages ......

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Death to white-tailed spiders!

I have been starting to feel as Bingo does and eating less meat. I can see myself becoming a vegetarian one day, but I don't know about vegan...

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I myself could never go vegan. I love dairy products -- cheese, especially -- far too damn much.

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How do vegetarians and vegans justify buying pet food? You can force your diet on your kids; a dog can even be relatively healthy on a vegetarian diet, but your cat will die if it doesn't eat meat. What's the difference between supporting the wholesale slaughter of animals for human consumption and supporting it for pet consumption?

I knew some people once who didn't feed their cat at all. It had to survive on what it could catch itself, and it was the biggest, strongest cat I have ever seen. The damn thing had pecs. Not very friendly though... and I bet it killed a bunch of native birds along with all the mice and rats.

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Some vegans give their cats taurine-enriched vegetarian cat food. *rollseyes*

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^Agreed.

Totally carnivorous animals need meat and to force them on a diet without it is animal cruelty.

Cats are killing machines and scroungers so they will end up killing things if you feed them or not. Perhaps giving them a bit of already dead creature might reduce the destruction they will doubtless visit on the outside world.

More wildlife is destroyed by the human obsession with felines (historically to keep down rodents numbers) than hunting or agriculture.

It always struck me as a bit odd that someone would be vegetarian on ethical grounds and keep a cat.

I used to have cats before I learned just how prolific they are at killing things (largely for their amusement). When I stopped having cats I discovered my fierce hay-fever episodes were in fact an allergic reaction to seasonal shedding of fur.

I also have a fondness for garden birds and our neighbours have small children so in my view cats with their killing and pooing everywhere are as much verminous as the rodents our civilisation initially kept them to keep down.

I have grown fond of dogs, you have to if you want to live where I do as almost everyone has one but I won't live with one myself.

I would need to have the energy and space for the human altered wolf to exercise. My back garden is where I grow vegetables and fruit and all a dog could do there is damage and I'm not always well enough to walk a dog.

I am happy to greet dogs that keep other people though.

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Some of us love cats just because they make great companions, I'm surprised some would find that so hard to believe.  I certainly don't like them just for sport or entertainment.

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Jetrell Fo said:

Some of us love cats just because they make great companions, I'm surprised some would find that so hard to believe.  I certainly don't like them just for sport or entertainment.

I understand the companionship angle as I was kept by cats for many years but I meant in the context of being a vegetarian for ethical reasons and a cat owner (particularly if the cat is forced into an unnatural vegetarian diet to match the humans of the house).

Cats kill so much that encouraging a culture where they almost out number the human population, kill far more animals than you would by making the choice to eat meat and then forcing the creature into a unnecessary diet sounds like the worst of all ethical worlds.

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Bingowings said:

I also have a fondness for garden birds and our neighbours have small children so in my view cats with their killing and pooing everywhere are as much verminous as the rodents our civilisation initially kept them to keep down.
I've yet to see a cat just use everywhere for it's restroom. Maybe some cats do it but I've most often seen such behaviour from dogs. Even dogs that were kept in prime environments with all the comforts a creature could desire. Didn't stop such dogs from using their owners couch as a toilet. Never have I known a cat that wasn't sick to do the same thing. Just my personal perspective on things, your experience may vary.

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Previous Signature preservation link

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Bingowings said:My front lawn is <a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Still-a-Reasonably-Boring-Thread-PICTURES-NOW-ALLOWED-Was-The-Most-Boringest-Thread-Ever-NO-PICTURES-ALLOWED/post/436547/#TopicPost436547" target="_self">constantly being used as a litter tray</a> by a cat. The neighbours and myself have tried everything we can to stop it including using lion poo from the zoo.
Unfortunate as that may be it doesn't negate my experiences. It's also odd to bring up since I was clearly talking about dogs using furniture as a toilet and cats not doing that unless they're sick. Your front lawn isn't furniture. I'm talking about well raised dogs from this now ex-couple I knew that know so much about dogs. They loved and cared about dogs so much. They could even train them but yet they couldn't stop their healthy well cared for dogs from using their couch as a toilet. Edit: Also their floors, their bed, pretty much anywhere the dog was that was convenient for it./Edit Never known a cat to do the same unless sick.

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My neighbours kids don't play on a dirty dog owner's furniture...to my knowledge and it's a common enough problem.

The people around here are very good at cleaning up the mess made by dogs and facilities are pretty well laid out for this in our neighbourhood but as nobody 'walks' their cat with a plastic bag ready to scoop up the item cat poo is more of a problem here.

I can understand your concern if that isn't the case where you live.

But I raised this as part of my collection of ethical concerns for people who go to the trouble of not eating meat or wearing leather but then get a cat which kills just about anything it can and then try and force a vegetarian diet on the poor creature.

It's as inconsistent for me as arguing for the rights of a zygote while eating a pig.

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Cats make great companions?  Interesting.

http://i.imgur.com/HyB46.jpg

Bingo, what would/did you do with an ant or termite infestation?

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twister111 said:


Bingowings said:My front lawn is http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Still-a-Reasonably-Boring-Thread-PICTURES-NOW-ALLOWED-Was-The-Most-Boringest-Thread-Ever-NO-PICTURES-ALLOWED/post/436547/#TopicPost436547" target="_self">constantly being used as a litter tray by a cat. The neighbours and myself have tried everything we can to stop it including using lion poo from the zoo.

Unfortunate as that may be it doesn't negate my experiences. It's also odd to bring up since I was clearly talking about dogs using furniture as a toilet and cats not doing that unless they're sick. Your front lawn isn't furniture. I'm talking about well raised dogs from this now ex-couple I knew that know so much about dogs. They loved and cared about dogs so much. They could even train them but yet they couldn't stop their healthy well cared for dogs from using their couch as a toilet. Edit: Also their floors, their bed, pretty much anywhere the dog was that was convenient for it./Edit Never known a cat to do the same unless sick.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7405/cooly.gif

 I'm sorry but that's not a well trained dog...or the dog has bladder problems.

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Magiclantern's Frink said :Bingo, what would/did you do with an ant or termite infestation?

I have explained this in the TLDR post above.

With ants I found a natural solution to the problem in the form of covering the doorsteps with eucalyptus oil. Ants navigate via smell and will avoid going places with certain aromas and it worked perfectly.

The tiny brick spider problem however we had to get an exterminator in because they couldn't be moved and would have brought our house and presumably the neighbour's house down too.

I wasn't happy about it though.