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The Usual Sequel Trilogy Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 49

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thebluefrog said:

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

JJ started it, yes, but it was Rian who took the ball and ran with it. Hamill definitely didn’t want things to go they way they did in TLJ. JJ’s mystery box COULD have been opened in a more appropriate way.

How? By going against everything set up in the prior film? By having a primary hero not grow or develop over 30 years? By sidelining the new characters to have Luke take over the story again?

The only other interesting choice would’ve been for Luke to be revealed the puppet master behind Snoke.

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JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

JJ started it, yes, but it was Rian who took the ball and ran with it. Hamill definitely didn’t want things to go they way they did in TLJ. JJ’s mystery box COULD have been opened in a more appropriate way.

How? By going against everything set up in the prior film? By having a primary hero not grow or develop over 30 years? By sidelining the new characters to have Luke take over the story again?

The only other interesting choice would’ve been for Luke to be revealed the puppet master behind Snoke.

Well Hamill himself said that a more appropriate reason for him going into exile would be the tragic death of his child. There are many other ways as well, such as an accidental death of one of his students, the turn of many of his students to the Dark Side that he could do nothing to prevent, a failure in training Leia which almost led to her death, his wife leaving him due to him prioritizing the Jedi school and refusing to return even after he left it to a next-in-command, Luke losing a battle to Snoke himself…

There are many ways in which Luke could have been on that island which didn’t have him fail at a test which he overcame years earlier. I get that Rian might have been going for the idea that just because someone succeeds once does not mean they will forever and this amplifies his wretchedness, but it comes at the cost of the simplicity of mythic storytelling. I think Rian was trying to say something subtle like this, but for many it ended up being too clever by half.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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NeverarGreat said:

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

JJ started it, yes, but it was Rian who took the ball and ran with it. Hamill definitely didn’t want things to go they way they did in TLJ. JJ’s mystery box COULD have been opened in a more appropriate way.

How? By going against everything set up in the prior film? By having a primary hero not grow or develop over 30 years? By sidelining the new characters to have Luke take over the story again?

The only other interesting choice would’ve been for Luke to be revealed the puppet master behind Snoke.

Well Hamill himself said that a more appropriate reason for him going into exile would be the tragic death of his child. There are many other ways as well, such as an accidental death of one of his students, the turn of many of his students to the Dark Side that he could do nothing to prevent, a failure in training Leia which almost led to her death, his wife leaving him due to him prioritizing the Jedi school and refusing to return even after he left it to a next-in-command, Luke losing a battle to Snoke himself…

There are many ways in which Luke could have been on that island which didn’t have him fail at a test which he overcame years earlier. I get that Rian might have been going for the idea that just because someone succeeds once does not mean they will forever and this amplifies his wretchedness, but it comes at the cost of the simplicity of mythic storytelling. I think Rian was trying to say something subtle like this, but for many it ended up being too clever by half.

Then your beef is with Abrams, because he is the one that made Luke go into hiding for his failures with Kylo. Look at that crawl again, and re-watch the conversation between Han, Rey and Finn. That motivation was written by Abrams, Johnson just fleshed it out.

Also, how many issues when it comes to temptation and interpersonal connection get solved by one choice that one time? He overcame that choice in both scenes, but was tempted and challenged by his more base way of thinking- y’know, like a person.

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After watching TFA for the first time I got the impression that Luke went specifically to the first Jedi temple to learn something, perhaps even searching for the source of Snoke’s power.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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idir_hh said:

After watching TFA for the first time I got the impression that Luke went specifically to the first Jedi temple to learn something, perhaps even searching for the source of Snoke’s power.

That’s possibly subtext. The actual text says he believes himself to have failed with Kylo and goes into exile to the first Jedi Temple from the guilt, despite the growing threat of Snoke and the First Order.

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 (Edited)

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:
JJ started it, yes, but it was Rian who took the ball and ran with it. Hamill definitely didn’t want things to go they way they did in TLJ. JJ’s mystery box COULD have been opened in a more appropriate way.

How? By going against everything set up in the prior film? By having a primary hero not grow or develop over 30 years? By sidelining the new characters to have Luke take over the story again?

The only other interesting choice would’ve been for Luke to be revealed the puppet master behind Snoke.

No way, come on, this is Star Wars. We have a universe of possibilities. It’s like when Kennedy said they don’t have a bunch of books or comics to go off…there’s literally 30 years of ideas people have offered.

Just as I’m sitting here, here’s a few ideas I came up with that are solely based off the brief flashes from TFA that had no context at the time.

A: Luke is isolated because there’s a far bigger threat coming. The tragedy is that he had to focus on that while Snoke took advantage of the vacuum. He knows lives are being lost but EVERYTHING could die without his effort. However, he failed to see the enormity of how far the First Order had spread in his absence, and realizes the new generation needs his guidance and can’t solve everything alone.

B: A new enemy emerged, almost like a parasite that feeds off Luke. The Jedi usage of the Force attracts it, and to protect the galaxy he needed to suppress himself. Reduced to no Jedi power, he had to research with bare bones paper and wooden tools to find a solution. Rey and friends disagree and think that they should still fight in the same good and evil sense: they MUST use the Force because Kylo and Snoke are. Both sides cannot agree, causing tragedy when neither belief’s absolutism can solve the problem.

C: Luke had his own child and family. The are lost in a senseless tragedy–not evil, not good, just random. The sheer enormity of the callous randomness of the galaxy breaks Luke’s faith in the idea of darkness vs light and the idea of balance loses meaning to him. It is no one’s fault, not Kylo, not Snoke, and not Luke. Can Rey’s own experiences regarding the cruelty of her own life contrast Luke’s broken soul?

D: While the galaxy was at peace, Luke attempted to build a new Jedi order. But something slowly went wrong. The new Jedi start to lose their connection to the force. There’s no war, no enemy, no cause…yet the Jedi connection to the force is simply dying.

Luke: “Darkness rises and light to meet it…but what happens when Light simply fades?”

While the New Jedi Order slowly diminished, it left them vulnerable, and the new empire, even without the Sith, were able to simply militarily overwhelm the weakened Jedi. Luke survived, but is now a powerless hermit wracked with survivor’s guilt. Can a Jedi still teach without the Force?

E: The Knights of Ren are not Sith. They are not Jedi. They do not use the force. They do not want the force. They take no political side. Using their unique form of armor based off 60 years of analyzing Republic and Empire technology, they are immune to the force in all ways. They cannot be mind tricked. They cannot be force pushed. They cannot be lightsabered. They are simply slow, methodological killers who believe in their cause. They hunted down and killed every one of Luke’s students. They are not allied with The First Order; they are a third faction and have their own agenda, because this is war, and war is not a cut and dry, black and white, good versus bad situation. They do not follow Kylo Ren, for he is a traitor who wishes to use the Force. And once they have exterminated Luke…they will come for him.

These are just several random ideas off the top of my head and just based off TFA’s mystery box. Sure they’re not perfect but it’s illustrating that there is ALWAYS a different way to go in writing fiction. There is no limit but your own imagination.

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A. B.
The other threat needed to be established in that first film. Revealing a new antagonist later on doesn’t work, such as Palpatine in Rise of Skywalker.

C. D.
Goes against The Force Awakens.

E. Goes against The Force Awakens and introduces another antagonist force in an already convoluted and confusing sociopolitical world that wasn’t fleshed out as it was.

Again, your beef with that choice should be aimed at Abrams.

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 (Edited)

JakeRyan17 said:

A. B.
The other threat needed to be established in that first film. Revealing a new antagonist later on doesn’t work, such as Palpatine in Rise of Skywalker.

C. D.
Goes against The Force Awakens.

E. Goes against The Force Awakens and introduces another antagonist force in an already convoluted and confusing sociopolitical world that wasn’t fleshed out as it was.

Again, your beef with that choice should be aimed at Abrams.

How does anything “Go against the Force Awakens”? Nothing in TFA was established due to JJ’s blank setup. There’s no context at all for Luke’s flashbacks. Snoke is 100% unknown. Kylo has zero history with Luke at the time other than generic hatred. Besides, Palpatine wasn’t introduced until Empire. Lucas himself can introduce bigger threats in the second film.

Nitpicking the details isn’t the point of what I said, it’s to illustrate you can go anywhere.

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 (Edited)

In TLJ documentary, Johnson paints a picture of a more active role to Luke’s exile, him realising that the cycle of jedi and Sith ascendancy was never ending and thus had to be broken, by removing himself and the jedi out of the picture. In its place the force would then have to choose a worthy inheritor to the light.

Pity the idea was executed half heartedly in the film.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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The Emperor is the head of the Empire, which was the main threat of the original trilogy. Another separate threat would be introducing a new and separate antagonist. Lucas never did this. Snoke and the First Order was the primary antagonist, setting up Kylo to supplant him. Having an extra force to fight against that The First Order also has to fight against would have convoluted everything, be that threat another force or Knights of Ren.

TFA establishes Luke was ashamed due to Kylo turning to the dark side and that’s why he went into exile. It’s in the crawl and repeated in dialogue from Han.

No one lost the ability to use the Force, if anything it’s more widely believed in during TFA than ANH. Even non-Jedi/non-Sith characters use the Force (Maz).

Kylo is the leader of the knights of Ren. That is the only thing we know about them outside of the Kylo Ren comics.

I’m just saying that Johnson developed what Abrams introduced. If you have a problem with what was introduced, your issue is with Abrams not Johnson.

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idir_hh said:

In TLJ documentary, Johnson paints a picture of a more active role to Luke’s exile, him realising that the cycle of jedi and Sith ascendancy was never ending and so had to be broken, by removing himself and the jedi, out of the picture. The force would then have to choose a worthy inheritor of the light.

Pity the idea was executed half heartedly in the film.

That’s almost verbatim his dialogue in the film. It’s established really well.

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 (Edited)

I think he could have articulated the same philosophy without being a dick about it, maintaining his kind nature and actually building a master/student bond with Rey( properly setting up “Rey Skywalker”). I also think they should have stuck with the idea of building a new order of force wielders. I mean, I don’t think Luke was wrong about the jedi. Ultimately the Sith did constantly spring out from them.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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 (Edited)

JakeRyan17 said:

The Emperor is the head of the Empire, which was the main threat of the original trilogy. Another separate threat would be introducing a new and separate antagonist. Lucas never did this. Snoke and the First Order was the primary antagonist, setting up Kylo to supplant him. Having an extra force to fight against that The First Order also has to fight against would have convoluted everything, be that threat another force or Knights of Ren.

TFA establishes Luke was ashamed due to Kylo turning to the dark side and that’s why he went into exile. It’s in the crawl and repeated in dialogue from Han.

No one lost the ability to use the Force, if anything it’s more widely believed in during TFA than ANH. Even non-Jedi/non-Sith characters use the Force (Maz).

Kylo is the leader of the knights of Ren. That is the only thing we know about them outside of the Kylo Ren comics.

I’m just saying that Johnson developed what Abrams introduced. If you have a problem with what was introduced, your issue is with Abrams not Johnson.

You’re not getting my point. You’re nitpicking little details that don’t 100% match when that’s not remotely the issue. The crawl in TFA did NOT mention anything about guilt or Kylo at all. Maz did not use the force. Kylo is not the leader of the Knights AT THE TIME of the movie alone. You’re bringing in things from other sources, when I was specifically saying that within the context of TFA and TFA alone, things could go anywhere.

When Lucas wrote the original movie, SEVERAL aspects were totally ignored, changed, and retconned for Empire. For example, the SW Emperor wasn’t a threat, he was still, at that stage, a useless bureaucrat and not part of the plot.

Or, you know, Vader being Luke’s father, the biggest rewrite of all.

The point is that things can be changed for the better–you just have to use your imagination. That’s what this entire editing hobby is about.

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It’s probably best to move this discussion to a more relevant thread.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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 (Edited)

idir_hh said:

After watching TFA for the first time I got the impression that Luke went specifically to the first Jedi temple to learn something, perhaps even searching for the source of Snoke’s power.

Same.

The Emperor is the head of the Empire, which was the main threat of the original trilogy. Another separate threat would be introducing a new and separate antagonist. Lucas never did this. Snoke and the First Order was the primary antagonist, setting up Kylo to supplant him. Having an extra force to fight against that The First Order also has to fight against would have convoluted everything, be that threat another force or Knights of Ren.

Honestly, if in Episode IX something like the Yuuzhan Vong had shown up outta nowhere and the finale was about the First Order and Resistance teaming up for the greater good, I’d have been so down for that.

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thebluefrog said:

A: Luke is isolated because there’s a far bigger threat coming. The tragedy is that he had to focus on that while Snoke took advantage of the vacuum. He knows lives are being lost but EVERYTHING could die without his effort. However, he failed to see the enormity of how far the First Order had spread in his absence, and realizes the new generation needs his guidance and can’t solve everything alone.

That’s an amazing idea. I might actually use it in my sequel edits to remove Luke’s surly attitude, while still explaining his absence. The bigger threat would be revealed to be Palpatine, giving that plot twist more foreshadowing.

My preferred saga experience:
ANH (4K77), ESB (Harmy), ROTJ (4K83).
Everything else is optional.

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StarkillerAG said:

thebluefrog said:

A: Luke is isolated because there’s a far bigger threat coming. The tragedy is that he had to focus on that while Snoke took advantage of the vacuum. He knows lives are being lost but EVERYTHING could die without his effort. However, he failed to see the enormity of how far the First Order had spread in his absence, and realizes the new generation needs his guidance and can’t solve everything alone.

That’s an amazing idea. I might actually use it in my sequel edits to remove Luke’s surly attitude, while still explaining his absence. The bigger threat would be revealed to be Palpatine, giving that plot twist more foreshadowing.

Thanks! Go for it.

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idir_hh said:

I think this would be a nice setup for Rey going crazy with the lightning in TROS:
By Gigawattboy
https://youtu.be/_8ScnpxUEHw

That’s a cool idea! I think it would be cool if it started more subtly, more just going between her fingers (Like Palpatine at the beginning of TROS). Save the full blast until the moment the saber shatters.

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A few sparks perhaps. Personally, I wouldn’t put any at all, as I think it works best as is revealed in TRoS.

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 (Edited)

This is probably a bad idea, but…
What if we were to rename Ben Solo to “Bail Solo” (after Bail Organa) and change every utterance of his name accordingly? It would still match the lip movements, and it would make more sense for Han and Leia to name their son that. The problem is it might undercut some of the emotional impact of that name because most of the time, when he’s referred to as “Ben,” it’s used to show his humanity, because Ben is a common name while Bail isn’t. I was considering posting this to “Worst Edit Ideas,” but I realized there might actually be a place for it in a more lore-focused edit. What do you think?

You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Am I making Carrie Fisher’s ghost proud?”
Well, are ya, punk?

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Yeah, probably not a good idea. I like Kylo’s real name being relatively common, and I don’t think there’s any audio of the characters saying “Bail”.

My preferred saga experience:
ANH (4K77), ESB (Harmy), ROTJ (4K83).
Everything else is optional.

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Wouldn’t it be simpler to just change every mention of Bail to Ben? I guess it would be a little weird for Obi-Wan to then take the name, but I could easily see it being a common name.

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I don’t think Bail’s name is said out loud in any of the movies, honestly.