Sign In

The Usual Sequel Trilogy Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 48

Author
Time

I’m curious, how would this be able to be developed? The crawl to Force Awakens, and maybe adjusting her conversation with Han about Kylo? She says “it’s my fault” during that conversation…

Author
Time
 (Edited)

No offense but this feels like the most un-Leia thing to do. I could maybe see it from Luke, only if Snoke tricks him into a force vision of the only solution for the Republic’s survival being a common enemy or something, and Luke is desperate to not fall into the same mistake as the old Jedi. But Leia? After Alderaan, directly allowing innocents to die? That’s not Leia.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

Author
Time

OutboundFlight said:

No offense but this feels like the most un-Leia thing to do. I could maybe see it from Luke, only if Snoke tricks him into a force vision of the only solution being a common enemy or something, and Luke is desperate to not fall into the same mistake as the old Jedi. But Leia? She has always been the moral center.

She’s also been the most extremist. Without seeing what had happened over the 30 years between films, it’s possible she thought the ends justified the means. Take Mark Hamill’s example of the Hippies of old growing up to be the conservative Boomers of now. 30 years is a long time.

Author
Time

Not to comment too much on the validity of either situation, but given the constant ongoing cries of character assassination over hermit Luke despite that idea coming from Lucas, pre-dating both Rian and JJ, I can’t imagine the wider reaction to the idea that Leia started the First Order and was to blame for all of it all along. Even if it could track with her character arc, just the tarnishing of her good name so to speak would drive people insane. I certainly would be impressed with any edit that pulls it off, but just something to keep in mind.

Author
Time

JKMaxx said:

Not to comment too much on the validity of either situation, but given the constant ongoing cries of character assassination over hermit Luke despite that idea coming from Lucas, pre-dating both Rian and JJ, I can’t imagine the wider reaction to the idea that Leia started the First Order and was to blame for all of it all along. Even if it could track with her character arc, just the tarnishing of her good name so to speak would drive people insane. I certainly would be impressed with any edit that pulls it off, but just something to keep in mind.

Well, yeah… anything that isn’t a member berry will of course piss a large group of people off.

Author
Time

JakeRyan17 said:

I’m curious, how would this be able to be developed? The crawl to Force Awakens, and maybe adjusting her conversation with Han about Kylo? She says “it’s my fault” during that conversation…

I was thinking more in terms of a rewrite. It’s probably not possible in the movie itself.

My preferred saga experience:
ANH (4K77), ESB (Harmy), ROTJ (4K83).
Everything else is optional.

Author
Time

OutboundFlight said:

No offense but this feels like the most un-Leia thing to do. I could maybe see it from Luke, only if Snoke tricks him into a force vision of the only solution for the Republic’s survival being a common enemy or something, and Luke is desperate to not fall into the same mistake as the old Jedi. But Leia? After Alderaan, directly allowing innocents to die? That’s not Leia.

Yeah, you may have a point there. I just want to add more of a tragic note to Leia’s character. If it could be done a better way that would be great, but my main goal is to have all 3 original heroes be somewhat responsible for Ben’s fall.

My preferred saga experience:
ANH (4K77), ESB (Harmy), ROTJ (4K83).
Everything else is optional.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

JKMaxx said:

Not to comment too much on the validity of either situation, but given the constant ongoing cries of character assassination over hermit Luke despite that idea coming from Lucas, pre-dating both Rian and JJ, I can’t imagine the wider reaction to the idea that Leia started the First Order and was to blame for all of it all along. Even if it could track with her character arc, just the tarnishing of her good name so to speak would drive people insane. I certainly would be impressed with any edit that pulls it off, but just something to keep in mind.

There’s one benefit to give Lucas’ writing over Rian or JJ: Lucas listened to the actors and altered the character arcs and stories based on their feedback. There’s countless interviews from the OT where Ford or Hamill said Lucas was able to be convinced that their characters wouldn’t do X or say Y.

So hermit Luke indeed was a Lucas idea, but definitely would not have been executed as Rian did, especially given how Hamill was unhappy with the way the character was written. Even the cliche Obi-Wan “old master gives Excalibur and then dies” would’ve been a better way to end Luke than the contradicting yes/no/maybe mess from JJ and Rian.

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Author
Time

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

Author
Time

I just don’t see what good could come from him being in exile without disillusionment. What, was he just sitting there waiting for someone to come get him? And as soon as they did he’d go “Okay, well since you found me, I’ve totally changed my mind and decide to take on the whole First Order with a laser sword”?

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Author
Time

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

And Hamill wanted Luke to go bad in ROTJ. People are just making stuff up now, Lucas never listened to his actors (nor was he under any obligation to).

Author
Time

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Does anyone think Han as Rebellion General was peak Solo?
Do they love him for his role as lapsed Smuggler?
Is he at all iconic as a failed father?

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Does anyone think Han as Rebellion General was peak Solo?
Do they love him for his role as lapsed Smuggler?
Is he at all iconic as a failed father?

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Harrison only ever wanted a meaningful story for his character, and a meaningful death. He was robbed of both in ROTJ but got his wish in TFA.

Author
Time

thebluefrog said:

JKMaxx said:

Not to comment too much on the validity of either situation, but given the constant ongoing cries of character assassination over hermit Luke despite that idea coming from Lucas, pre-dating both Rian and JJ, I can’t imagine the wider reaction to the idea that Leia started the First Order and was to blame for all of it all along. Even if it could track with her character arc, just the tarnishing of her good name so to speak would drive people insane. I certainly would be impressed with any edit that pulls it off, but just something to keep in mind.

There’s one benefit to give Lucas’ writing over Rian or JJ: Lucas listened to the actors and altered the character arcs and stories based on their feedback. There’s countless interviews from the OT where Ford or Hamill said Lucas was able to be convinced that their characters wouldn’t do X or say Y.

So hermit Luke indeed was a Lucas idea, but definitely would not have been executed as Rian did, especially given how Hamill was unhappy with the way the character was written. Even the cliche Obi-Wan “old master gives Excalibur and then dies” would’ve been a better way to end Luke than the contradicting yes/no/maybe mess from JJ and Rian.

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

This is famously untrue. Lucas still finds Empire Strikes Back to be his least favourite film because of this. He hates “I know” and forced production on Return of the Jedi to be much more centred in California so he could oversee production more easily.

Author
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

I just don’t see what good could come from him being in exile without disillusionment. What, was he just sitting there waiting for someone to come get him? And as soon as they did he’d go “Okay, well since you found me, I’ve totally changed my mind and decide to take on the whole First Order with a laser sword”?

Exactly. Everything people hated in TLJ can be traced to Abrams’ choices (or lack of depth) in TFA.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Grumpy Luke is giving a sense of logic as to why Luke would abandon the galaxy in shame (as the crawl and Han talked about).

Rose And Holdo were created because Finn and Poe didn’t have distinct or fleshed out personalities. They needed to be flawed and different to each other, and a plot showing their individual weaknesses needed to see them both fail, learn, and grow. This also is why the “useless” Canto Bight sequence was incorporated.

The Knights of Ren were absent because they were a one-line throwaway concept by Abrams, and Johnson didn’t want them to be useless fighters who were introduced and subsequently killed off. He created and used the Praetorian Guards instead. Abrams would later relegate the Knights of Ren to the same shallow goons, but with less impressive choreography.

Snoke was undeveloped and used only for Kylo’s motivation and growth, so Johnson continued along that path. Since Kylo was the primary antagonist of the trilogy, Johnson allowed him to take that role more directly while still giving him a character arc.

Johnson subverted expectations because the only film preceding was a retread of the plot of the original Star Wars, but with a bigger Death Star. The one thing Abrams changed from the original Star Wars’ formula was giving the film a cliffhanger ending. This cliffhanger got in the way of two of the three main Characters having an arc. Kylo’s choice to kill Han and commit to the Dark Side completes his arc and quest in the film. Rey is still searching for belonging, and Finn is knocked out before he can take any personal action in the plot. Poe wasn’t meant to be a protagonist, and originally was set to die in the TIE crash. Because of this, Poe had no arc. TLJ had to give all of these characters arcs to compensate, and retreading past films or giving the obvious answers to shallow questions wouldn’t achieve that.

Thus, every major issue people have with The Last Jedi can be traced to choices made with The Force Awakens.

Author
Time

JakeRyan17 said:

Grumpy Luke is giving a sense of logic as to why Luke would abandon the galaxy in shame (as the crawl and Han talked about).

Rose And Holdo were created because Finn and Poe didn’t have distinct or fleshed out personalities. They needed to be flawed and different to each other, and a plot showing their individual weaknesses needed to see them both fail, learn, and grow. This also is why the “useless” Canto Bight sequence was incorporated.

The Knights of Ren were absent because they were a one-line throwaway concept by Abrams, and Johnson didn’t want them to be useless fighters who were introduced and subsequently killed off. He created and used the Praetorian Guards instead. Abrams would later relegate the Knights of Ren to the same shallow goons, but with less impressive choreography.

Snoke was undeveloped and used only for Kylo’s motivation and growth, so Johnson continued along that path. Since Kylo was the primary antagonist of the trilogy, Johnson allowed him to take that role more directly while still giving him a character arc.

Johnson subverted expectations because the only film preceding was a retread of the plot of the original Star Wars, but with a bigger Death Star. The one thing Abrams changed from the original Star Wars’ formula was giving the film a cliffhanger ending. This cliffhanger got in the way of two of the three main Characters having an arc. Kylo’s choice to kill Han and commit to the Dark Side completes his arc and quest in the film. Rey is still searching for belonging, and Finn is knocked out before he can take any personal action in the plot. Poe wasn’t meant to be a protagonist, and originally was set to die in the TIE crash. Because of this, Poe had no arc. TLJ had to give all of these characters arcs to compensate, and retreading past films or giving the obvious answers to shallow questions wouldn’t achieve that.

Thus, every major issue people have with The Last Jedi can be traced to choices made with The Force Awakens.

Applause.

Italian faneditor.

EDITS LIST:
CHOSEN ONE - A STAR WARS STORY (3-in-1 prequels).
Personal saga: I - SHADOW OF THE PAST. II - KEEPERS OF THE PEACE. III - RISE OF THE DARK SIDE. IV - THE SON OF SKYWALKER. VI - RETURN OF THE JEDI.
Just look for them in the forum, and PM me for links if interested.

Author
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

“Dark Leia,” much like “Dark Luke,” is an incredibly stupid idea. We don’t want to see “evil” versions of the classic heroes.

It’s not as stupid as the one time I saw a prequel rewrite that had Luke and Leia being the product of Vader raping the Padme equivalent.

You don’t. Leave me out of this we biz 😁

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

Author
Time

IlFanEditore said:

JakeRyan17 said:

Grumpy Luke is giving a sense of logic as to why Luke would abandon the galaxy in shame (as the crawl and Han talked about).

Rose And Holdo were created because Finn and Poe didn’t have distinct or fleshed out personalities. They needed to be flawed and different to each other, and a plot showing their individual weaknesses needed to see them both fail, learn, and grow. This also is why the “useless” Canto Bight sequence was incorporated.

The Knights of Ren were absent because they were a one-line throwaway concept by Abrams, and Johnson didn’t want them to be useless fighters who were introduced and subsequently killed off. He created and used the Praetorian Guards instead. Abrams would later relegate the Knights of Ren to the same shallow goons, but with less impressive choreography.

Snoke was undeveloped and used only for Kylo’s motivation and growth, so Johnson continued along that path. Since Kylo was the primary antagonist of the trilogy, Johnson allowed him to take that role more directly while still giving him a character arc.

Johnson subverted expectations because the only film preceding was a retread of the plot of the original Star Wars, but with a bigger Death Star. The one thing Abrams changed from the original Star Wars’ formula was giving the film a cliffhanger ending. This cliffhanger got in the way of two of the three main Characters having an arc. Kylo’s choice to kill Han and commit to the Dark Side completes his arc and quest in the film. Rey is still searching for belonging, and Finn is knocked out before he can take any personal action in the plot. Poe wasn’t meant to be a protagonist, and originally was set to die in the TIE crash. Because of this, Poe had no arc. TLJ had to give all of these characters arcs to compensate, and retreading past films or giving the obvious answers to shallow questions wouldn’t achieve that.

Thus, every major issue people have with The Last Jedi can be traced to choices made with The Force Awakens.

Applause.

Agreed!

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Does anyone think Han as Rebellion General was peak Solo?
Do they love him for his role as lapsed Smuggler?
Is he at all iconic as a failed father?

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

Author
Time

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Does anyone think Han as Rebellion General was peak Solo?
Do they love him for his role as lapsed Smuggler?
Is he at all iconic as a failed father?

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

JJ started it, yes, but it was Rian who took the ball and ran with it. Hamill definitely didn’t want things to go they way they did in TLJ. JJ’s mystery box COULD have been opened in a more appropriate way.