The Unofficial Complete REVISITED SAGA Ideas and Random Discussion Thread — Page 50

.Mac. said:

metalmunki said:

I prefer DS2 being around Endor's moon where it is. It makes more sense that  it's being built somewhere 'hidden', and that it's a surprise that the Emperor is personally showing up ("The Emperor is coming here!?")

There is just no way the Rebel fleet would do a direct assault on the Coruscant system.

What I will say is, I'd like to see Endor itself more prominent in the forest moon's sky and perhaps in some of the space shots, and the DS2 being more obviously in the moon's orbit in some of the shots also.

I strongly agree with all of this.

The construction of the Death Star should remain hidden and isolated as it's being constructed. Sure would be great to see the planet Endor in certain instances too, which, has a vertical ring belt (I think?).

I would like to also see the Imperial base on the moon expanded with a large mining colony and construction plant there. They're extracting the moon's resources/metals and creating the pieces necessary for the new Death Star. These pieces are brought out by multiple cargo ships that go to the orbiting station and return for a reload. This can be very easily established while our heroes in the transport make a pass before landing on the outskirts (very similar to the arrival on Pandora in Avatar).

I'll address both of you in this post just because .Mac stated he agreed with everything metalmunki said.

People aren't proposing moving the moon to Coruscant but keeping everything else the same (which I agree would be completely pointless and would make very little sense to be built "in secret" but circling the Galactic Capital!). The idea that's been proposed here involves downgrading the Death Star's importance to a secondary (probably surprise) plot-device, not central to the plot anymore. The Rebels would need a new reason to be blowing up the generator on the moon, which is why myself and others have proposed that the shield generator is powering a PLANETARY shield which is guarding against attacks on Coruscant. So the moon circling Coruscant doesn't in any way affect your logic that the DS should be built elsewhere, as the DS would have absolutely nothing to do with the moon. The 2nd DS can appear as a surprise trap without us needing to know where it was built. That's the beauty of it. The first Death Star wasn't stuck in orbit around a particular planet. This one doesn't need to be either.

The stakes should be much higher in the penultimate chapter. An assault on the Imperial Capital fits the bill perfectly in my opinion, and is probably more along the lines of what people expected back in 1983. You are of course entitled to disagree, however the issue I see is the entire plot centres around destroying another Death Star, which is just lazy recycling and it should never have been written in this way in the first place. Changing the main plot to no longer be about the Death Star fixes a lot. There's a lot more wrong with ROTJ than that, but it would be a hell of a start.

As for metalmunki's statement that there's "no way" the Rebels would ever attack Coruscant......their aim is to defeat the Empire, yes? How else do you propose they would ever accomplish that if they're never willing to hit their seat of power? They'd have had to do it eventually so I don't understand your logic. Just wanting to see Endor in the forest moon's sky is all very pretty, I'm sure, but it doesn't fix anything about the plot.

brash_stryker said:

People aren't proposing moving the moon to Coruscant but keeping everything else the same (which I agree would be completely pointless and would make very little sense to be built "in secret" but circling the Galactic Capital!). The idea that's been proposed here involves downgrading the Death Star's importance to a secondary (probably surprise) plot-device, not central to the plot anymore. The Rebels would need a new reason to be blowing up the generator on the moon, which is why myself and others have proposed that the shield generator is powering a PLANETARY shield which is guarding against attacks on Coruscant. So the moon circling Coruscant doesn't in any way affect your logic that the DS should be built elsewhere, as the DS would have absolutely nothing to do with the moon. The 2nd DS can appear as a surprise trap without us needing to know where it was built. That's the beauty of it. The first Death Star wasn't stuck in orbit around a particular planet. This one doesn't need to be either.

The stakes should be much higher in the penultimate chapter. An assault on the Imperial Capital fits the bill perfectly in my opinion, and is probably more along the lines of what people expected back in 1983. You are of course entitled to disagree, however the issue I see is the entire plot centres around destroying another Death Star, which is just lazy recycling and it should never have been written in this way in the first place. Changing the main plot to no longer be about the Death Star fixes a lot. There's a lot more wrong with ROTJ than that, but it would be a hell of a start.

As for metalmunki's statement that there's "no way" the Rebels would ever attack Coruscant......their aim is to defeat the Empire, yes? How else do you propose they would ever accomplish that if they're never willing to hit their seat of power? They'd have had to do it eventually so I don't understand your logic. Just wanting to see Endor in the forest moon's sky is all very pretty, I'm sure, but it doesn't fix anything about the plot.

 This. All of this.

.Mac. said:

...but we also have to consider what's actually possible with the footage already available

I'm not speaking for Ady at all here, but he has announced in the past that he'll be going to town on ROTJ. Not as drastic an edit as the PT, obviously, but it seems to be implied that he'll be filming new elements. So we're not limited by existing footage at all. 

As for at what point changes become too much, well that's one reason I specifically want the 2nd Death Star kept. The half-built aesthetic is so iconic, and I would never want that removed entirely and I'm sure 99% of fans would agree with that. 
I'm also sure that such a radical change as some of us have proposed would upset a huge portion of the fanbase as well. But personally, I think it's needed to save this flawed movie. In a way, it's far more tragic a failure than the PT ever was, as it actually had some of the greatest moments in the OT in there whereas the PT was all garbage. Lucas should have shown it more respect, and it's my opinion that this is a change more in the spirit of what someone like Kershner would have wanted.

.Mac. said:

brash_stryker said:

I'm not speaking for Ady at all here, but he has announced in the past that he'll be going to town on ROTJ. Not as drastic an edit as the PT, obviously, but it seems to be implied that he'll be filming new elements. So we're not limited by existing footage at all. 

That's what I understand will happen too, as I stated above. He is planning on expanding the space battle with more (new) B-Wing and A-Wing action and more (new) footage of Rebel commandos fighting against the Imperials on Endor, of which I am most certainly in favor of (and neither additions defy the lore)... he can shoot all kinds of new stuff, however, we are limited with how much footage there is involving the OT characters - that's what I meant.

My guess is that his additions will go much further than that but I could be wrong. Personally, I couldn't care less about the lore this flawed movie has established, so that's why I'm more in favour of drastic changes. None of which would require additional footage of existing characters. :)

Good points and arguments pro and con here, and as a fan who started with RotJ, the first movie of the saga I saw at the cinema, my favorite moments came from the comics (Marvel and Dark Horse) because they were bold and didn't repeat ideas (ok some things are too good not to shed light from another angle).

My point is, that "Star Wars" as a standalone movie worked fine, as a part of a larger saga it needed attention, which Adywan gave it - "Empire" had Kershner, who understood that a sequel and a possible middle-part must put the heroes into grave danger and even death (so Han Solo was in real peril not just "oops wrong way") - then came "Jedi", and again, as a "lone film" it worked somehow (as I meant above) without knowledge who and what the rest was, but as a third part (and conclusion) of this trilogy (and saga) it is a very "stupid" funpark-ride - in retrospective meant to sell toys and dolls :-(

So should we leave ALL the bad parts be? or would it be better to twist and replace (if possible or feasable) until we have a coherent/harmonious trilogy (or saga, if the PT can be adjusted).

I like the second DS, but the role it has is not the one it should have, and yes the Rebellion grew from movie to movie, so it makes sense storywise that the galaxy wants to overthrow its unwanted dictator and topple the seat of power: Coruscant - with all means possible (even if they all go down in flames and leaving a galaxy burned and scarred, but FREE at last from the Sith suppression)!

brash_stryker said:

.Mac. said:

That's what I understand will happen too, as I stated above. He is planning on expanding the space battle with more (new) B-Wing and A-Wing action and more (new) footage of Rebel commandos fighting against the Imperials on Endor, of which I am most certainly in favor of (and neither additions defy the lore)... he can shoot all kinds of new stuff, however, we are limited with how much footage there is involving the OT characters - that's what I meant.

My guess is that his additions will go much further than that but I could be wrong. Personally, I couldn't care less about the lore this flawed movie has established, so that's why I'm more in favour of drastic changes. None of which would require additional footage of existing characters. :)

 Well, I am all in for more "Space Battle", especially from A- and B-Wings (they got some great concept and marketing pictures, but no or minimal screentime) :-D

The "heroes" are the central part of the movie, that is a given, but why shouldn't there be more characters we follow through the movie?

maybe replace some side/background characters and film new footage featuring them, so we have more material to cut into the bits and pieces we have with our classic band - easy part would be new footage with people who wear masks and heavy costumes (C3P0, Chewie, Vader ... Troopers?)

So many ideas out there, just needing to be condensed, and the result would be (hopefully) the movie we would have liked to see back then in the 80's ;-)

.Mac. said:

That all said, I do agree that there has to be leeway for some exceptions to be made because of how ridiculous certain points of the film can be; omitting it may not be an option either since it's integral to the plot, and what's done is done so we have to work with what's there. What I have in mind is the Han rescue plan ;) This needs to somehow make "better" sense and be more tolerable, which can partly be "improved" by tweaking the opening crawl and completely omitting Leia ever bringing in Chewie (some good moments lost, sure, but she should already be inside in disguise just as Lando is when the droids arrive, both learning the layout of the palace and soon making the plan to get every friend out, and Chewie has already been captured by some other way). When Han first sees Chewie, that's when we do also. As he can begin to sense the foil in the plan through the force, Luke sends the two droids, merely as a distraction, to buy himself extra time before he can personally arrive there (he was off elsewhere doing things integral towards his Jedi self-training). Not the best, but it is an improvement with what we got. I guess I got side-tracked and off point :)

well, until we get an official RotJ:R thread, this is a place to drop "suggestions", not necessary a must-do list for Adywan, more of a brainstorming for all edits (that want to improve the saga) :-)

yeah, I wouldn't cut or throw out good parts or scenes that work, but like in original movie making, not every idea gets into the final print, some nice things get cut and end in the "bonus" - so when a better plot comes up I think, most will take that and run with it, than stick with "Plan A" and frown every time they see it ...

As for "Jabbas Palace": it really shouldn't be Lukes plan after all, maybe Leia got impatient and like him before tried to rescue her boyfriend - Chewie and Lando as a recon-team would cement the dialogue C3PO has with R2 (if kept) - Luke should finish his training, Yoda dies, THEN he is on his way to save his friends and later the galaxy ;-)

If we keep only things that "matter", the movie will be around 1 hour max - I am not a fan of the new musical number, it was too "loud" - the old had some magic, as it came from a place, where dragons, wizards and knights traversed castles (with disco balls) - so a "mix" out of both (if that is possible) or a new version (one needs to decide if cgi or puppets) could be a plus ...

Not sure what you mean by "lore" ? as Lucas himself didn't know that ;-)

.Mac. said:

There are obviously many different ways to make changes for any scene, and I'm sure most ideas can be justifiable, but my main argument here is we shouldn't so quickly jump to making a certain change if it significantly alters the lore, even if it is a great change. At least for me, I'd rather there be a fix that still respects the over all story and lore, instead of a possibly better fix that alters what we know of the lore drastically. To me that's where I believe we should try to draw the line when it comes to deciding changes within the Revisited Project of the Original Trilogy. Of course Ady has final say on all of this.

 My issue with this argument is that the lore or story of ROTJ is just  not very compelling to begin with. It was significantly watered down from what it should have been, and is very weak. Staying true to it leaves one with a flawed end product, which was what was started with. The aim here is to improve this particular film, not only visually, but story-wise as well.

.Mac. said:

 

However, like I was saying before, there is only so much we can do with the ROTJ story. All kinds of new scenes can be shot, but, unless Ady plans to shoot an entirely brand new film and replace the OT characters altogether, he will not be able to remold the film to the way you or I wish it could've been - not without it looking like a fan edit, which is NOT the aim of Revisited (it is a fan edit but it's not intended to look like one). Because of these limitations with the footage involving the OT characters, of what they do and say onscreen, I'm suggesting keeping to the film's lore and start the groundwork from there, that Ady CAN actually do and STILL make a much better film than it is now, successfully. I'm just trying to be realistic here with what can or can't be expected to be done :)

 

The great thing about the changes we've been discussing is that they specifically don't require the main cast to achieve them. Our principal characters will do everything identically to the original, and in the same settings. It's only the scenes that intercut between their scenes that must be altered.  Any necessary exposition would be via new actors playing minor roles (rebel or imperial officers) and/or redubbing existing ones.

Because this particular idea only relates to diminishing the role of the 2nd Death Star, I don't have a full plot outline written down to give you, however I'm being realistic and only proposing things that I feel are doable. For example, as much as I'd have liked Lando to have sacrificed himself, I haven't brought it up as the footage doesn't exist to pull it off. This idea though, can be pulled off effectively because the Rebels' actions and motivations are the same. They still need to:

1. Sneak to a moon to blow up a shield generator
2. With the shield down, attack.....something.

It's all a matter of changing the meaning of these actions by altering other scenes. 

As for muddyknees2000, he's a realist. If there's a flaw in the idea, I'm sure he'd be more than willing to call me out on it. ;)

I'll address both of you in this post just because .Mac stated he agreed with everything metalmunki said.[...]

That's some Sith-like/Iraq war-like thinking there. You think the Alliance would happily go full-force on a heavily populated world? It's not all Stormtroopers down there, you know. The Alliance attacks *military* targets. They are out and out good-guys (this is pulp/family entertainment after all not a gritty war drama). Coruscant itself is a hearts and minds campaign if anything,and the ending ROTJ montage justifies that.

No, just no.

ROTJ has its problems (We could've done with the forest coming alive to indirectly help kill the STs rather than just Ewoks, for example), but wholesale changing plot and location is just too far. ROTJ still has to be ROTJ.

ROTJ is as up for grabs as the PT in my book.

That said I think the aim should be to look at the films as they are and imagine what they positively could have been and move the films towards that.

Realising the potential hidden in the ore of the theatrical cut and the SEs.

ANH and ESB just needed a bit of modern looking polish added to make a more accomplished special edition.

ROTJ and the PT need major restructuring but I think the core aims should be left intact.

I personally would prefer ROTJ to end with the rebellion not over or implied to be.

Have our heroes jump into hyperspace with the knowledge that the saga continues. Those celebrations added for the SEs are premature, a cherry on a yet to be finished cake.

Bingowings said:

ROTJ is as up for grabs as the PT in my book.

That said I think the aim should be to look at the films as they are and imagine what they positively could have been and move the films towards that.

Realising the potential hidden in the ore of the theatrical cut and the SEs.

ANH and ESB just needed a bit of modern looking polish added to make a more accomplished special edition.

ROTJ and the PT need major restructuring but I think the core aims should be left intact.

I personally would prefer ROTJ to end with the rebellion not over or implied to be.

Have our heroes jump into hyperspace with the knowledge that the saga continues. Those celebrations added for the SEs are premature, a cherry on a yet to be finished cake.

 I guess I just took the montages to be over a reasonable period of time (months?) rather than parallel to the battle of Endor. The only one that felt really out of place to me there was the Tatooine one. I mean, why would they give a damn?

I wonder how moving the celebration montages to AFTER a hyperspace ending would work? Or dare I suggest - intercut into a unique saga wide credit sequence?

I find them as celebrations to be distracting.

The Corsuscant footage could be as Ady suggested looked at as a riot but the celebrating should just be on Endor, that's where the battle was.

So I noticed there was a total eclipse recently on some island and then the Idea struck me and a vision unfolded in my imagination.

What better way to hide the Death Star 2 in a battle than behind a solar eclipse. The Death Star being behind the Planet and the light behind the death star. We also get quite a bit of symbolism from an image like this like the light is fading and darkness will prevail. I was imagining as the planet would cross the star the Death Star 2 would emerge into it's Black Heart. I think it's an image that movie goers would not forget in a long time and well I have to say that it could really have it all and be something that could really bring a massive epic feel, fantastical and symbolism also quite magical in an elementary way. The Dark Side of the force conjured in an image and deceitful by nature hiding in the shadows.

But with that said I like the direction you are heading in and I thought I would throw this vision I had at you as a perhaps artistic direction if it fits with what you are trying to achieve. It seems that you wanted to create more of a surprise for the death star 2 and I think this really could be a shocker that people would not forget. But it all really depends on what you want to achieve and how far you want to go.

If you wanted the Death Star 2 to threaten to obliteterate Coruscant (Equivalent to obliterating all civilization) then not only will you have a frame of reference for the death star 2 position in space but also from the ground up from innocents on  Coruscant people looking up at a solar eclipse.

It's a diifferent way of showing the countdown timer from A new Hope I suppose in that reference but done in a quite mystical fashion rather than technological readout. And it's actually a bit scary too. I mean where would everyone be looking during a solar eclipse. Up in the sky.

The Land goes Dark and then goodbye baby BOOOM! Or will the Sun shine again?

ben_danger said:

I wonder how moving the celebration montages to AFTER a hyperspace ending would work? Or dare I suggest - intercut into a unique saga wide credit sequence?

 See now I'm going to have to out my ideal, which is likely going to cause a few nauseous reactions:

I would love to see the montage scene altered into something like the Superman Returns opening credits sequence

No credits though, keep it part of the movie proper, swooping and hyper spacing to a few different planets to show, rather than celebrating, continuing battles, some alien fauna etc - just little vignettes of the Star Wars universe  -show that while this decisive battle is won, amazing and crazy stuff is still out there - the universe continues beyond this story. If you know of Jodorowsky's Dune concept for his intro, you know what I'm talking about.

And finally (this bit is just me I'm sure, but frankly I don't see how we can avoid addressing it in some way if I haven't lost you yet, I will now!), the camera finally moves to Tatooine skimming the dunes, to the edge of the Sarlaac pit where we see Boba Fett's helmet half-buried in the sand, his gloved hand comes from out of shot to claim it, then we iris to the credits and the credits theme.

hehe, I somehow imagine the "blow-up" scene would have an extreme effect if used in ANH - after Alderaan destruction, maybe as a interlude to Obi-Wan having his "breakdown" ...

well, on how to end RotJ: it depends, honestly if one wants to just do a SE of the OT, it would look different than a "saga ending" (meaning PT+OT) *

I like the open-end one, because it leaves space for the ST (if one likes to watch them afterwards and one edit has the "canon" intact)

* that would look a little like "Hobbit + LotR" combined, with a grand opening and an epilogue (to leave the GFFA for future generations)

not sure if another "zoom" through the galaxy is that fitting (having the end of MiB in mind), it doesn't really sit well with SW ?

BUT I like the idea of Fett being a last picture (or after credits), like was in "Flash Gordon" ;-)

metalmunki said:

...we see Boba Fett's helmet half-buried in the sand, his gloved hand comes from out of shot to claim it, then we iris to the credits and the credits theme.

 Fett dies in Revisited.

^That's a disappointment to me as in a film where Yoda, Vader, Palpatine and Jabba die (plus the implication the Empire itself dies in that continuity at least) it seems like one death too many, implausibly convenient.

I also don't see the need to tie up every loose end but it's not my decision to make.

Hm, having the deaths of Yoda, Vader and the Emperor, is a closing of the old order (republic/Jedi/Sith), Luke being the new generation and beginning with his sister ...

Fett should either be not in the movie at all or have a similar role he had in ESB - as one suggested, he could give the plans/information to the rebel spies ;-)

the Jabba rollercoaster is a thing to reconsider - from start to end - yeah, some don't want to change "important" events, but some pointed out, we need "things that matter" ...